Has anyone read the letters James Joyce wrote to Nora Barnacle?

[Kurtz]

Read them they own.

[Medievalist]

if you're into fart jokes, sure.

[Millicent M'Lady]

I've been meaning to read these for a long time. Am I right in believing they're pure filth?

[Medievalist]

They're more at the level of two fourteen year-old boys farting, honestly, interposed with references to quim and bums and bodily functions. If you take any sort of a Joyce seminar, you'll be given a slightly illegal xeroxed copy--there's the one edition of Joyce's letters published twenty or more years ago by Ellman, and the Joyce estate has stopped all further publication.

[Celia Cyanide]

I read one. It did not own. It was....lame.

and why is this in here?

[Shadow_Ferret]

I respect their privacy.

[Medievalist]

I read one. It did not own. It was....lame.

and why is this in here?

I got no clue.

Now, there is one letter that isn't in Ellmann's collection that IS in the Huntington Library that's interesting because it shows that Joyce used Nora's letters to him to create Molly's soliloquy.

[Millicent M'Lady]

I got no clue.

Now, there is one letter that isn't in Ellmann's collection that IS in the Huntington Library that's interesting because it shows that Joyce used Nora's letters to him to create Molly's soliloquy.

I did not know that and I was subjected to studied Ulysses for a semester.

That would be a very interesting letter to read for the comparisons.

Have I been totally mislead by the people who told me that Joyce was a coprophiliac?

[Ken]

... I wouldn't want people reading my own private letters, so I extend the same to Joyce and don't read his. Otherwise I'd be nothing more than an eavesdropper or lowlife, peeping tom.

[Millicent M'Lady]

... I wouldn't want people reading my own private letters, so I extend the same to Joyce and don't read his. Otherwise I'd be nothing more than an eavesdropper or lowlife, peeping tom.

Not a snark but I'm curious if you apply this to all historical figures? I think that there is a wealth of information to be found from personal correspondence and if it is not going to distress the owner of said correspondence, is it necessarily lowlife behaviour?

[Ken]

Not a snark but I'm curious if you apply this to all historical figures? I think that there is a wealth of information to be found from personal correspondence and if it is not going to distress the owner of said correspondence, is it necessarily lowlife behaviour?

... yep, I do apply it to all historical figures. What's not meant for publication should remain out of the public eye, indefinitely. At the same time though I do realise the importance and value of the private letters for research purposes. So I guess I have mixed feelings on the issue. I respect and admire Joyce a lot, and it's just upsetting to see letters like these publicized and snickered at.

edt: Maybe the right balance is to leave the letters accessible to academians and researchers, while keeping them out of the public's hands, which is what is being done more or less.

[Shadow_Ferret]

... I wouldn't want people reading my own private letters, so I extend the same to Joyce and don't read his. Otherwise I'd be nothing more than an eavesdropper or lowlife, peeping tom.

Exactly.

[Millicent M'Lady]

... yep, I do apply it to all historical figures. What's not meant for publication should remain out of the public eye, indefinitely. At the same time though I do realise the importance and value of the private letters for research purposes. So I guess I have mixed feelings on the issue. I respect and admire Joyce a lot, and it's just upsetting to see letters like this publicised and snickered at.

edt: Maybe the right balance is to leave the letters accesible to academians and researchers, while keeping them out of the public's hands, which is what is being done more or less.

But why are academians and researchers more qualified to read or understand these things? A lot of these intimate exchanges can add whole new levels of personality or perspective to cultural icons and help them to become more human in the public's eyes (and maybe therefore a little less intimidating).

I know that some criticise and mock Joyce's letters but to be honest, they earned him a lot of gravitas from some of the students I attended university with.

[Medievalist]

I did not know that and I was subjected to studied Ulysses for a semester.

That would be a very interesting letter to read for the comparisons.

It's on permanent display at the Huntington Library. Ulysses was a set text for my Ph.D. qualifying exam for the novel. I'm not overly enthusiastic about it, but I understand why people are.

Have I been totally mislead by the people who told me that Joyce was a coprophiliac?

Technically, he's more interested in farts than feces, and I forget the Latin name for that particular fetish.

[Medievalist]

Exactly.

Joyce had no problem with people reading the letters; his estate does. Joyce destroyed some materials himself, and left instructions for others to be destroyed. He did not included these letters, and Norah wanted them to be published.

[Ken]

... perhaps you're right, Millicent. That still doesn't make it any less wrong though to publicize the letters. It just warrants or overrides the wrongdoing.

[Millicent M'Lady]

It's on permanent display at the Huntington Library. Ulysses was a set text for my Ph.D. qualifying exam for the novel. I'm not overly enthusiastic about it, but I understand why people are.



Technically, he's more interested in farts than feces, and I forget the Latin name for that particular fetish.

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity Medievalist- I'm guessing a lot of the students who claimed to me to have read them may have been bluffing so.:)

I understand the enthusiasm too but I just never had enough free time (and can't imagine ever having it) to be able to really get through that book in any way that would do it justice.

[Millicent M'Lady]

... perhaps you're right, Millicent. That still doesn't make it any less wrong though to publicize the letters, though. It just warrants or overrides the wrongdoing.

Perhaps you're right too though Ken. Maybe we are all too ready to digest too much of people's private lives. Sign of the times perhaps.:rolleyes:

Although, as Medievalist pointed out, the parties who these letters were intended for had no problem with their public consumption. Who are we (or Joyce's estate for that matter) to deny their wishes?

[Ken]

Although, as Medievalist pointed out, the parties who these letters were intended for had no problem with their public consumption. Who are we (or Joyce's estate for that matter) to deny their wishes?

.. wasn't familiar with Joyce and Nora being okay with the publication of these particular letters, but now that I am it seems okay for them to be publicised. And for the record, estates of authors and historical figures can be unreasonably controlling at times, and not always for the best interests of the deceased.

[10er]

Maybe we are all too ready to digest too much of people's private lives. Sign of the times perhaps.:rolleyes:


Yeop. As a compulsive internet user, I have almost reached the point where mental filters prevent me from writing anything I wouldn't be comfortable to see the whole world read.
And even though I realize it's not really fair or reasonable, I feel a pang of annoyance/anger every time I see people complain about breach of privacy, thinking "keep it in your head if you don't want others to know".
Gotta love modern times. ;)

[Kurtz]

If you're not cool with work that the author didn't want to see published you can't read any of Kafka's work at all. He ordered it all burnt and we only have it because Max Brod went against the stipulations of his will. And imagine how the Western Literary Canon would have suffered for that.

EDIT- this was also supposed to be in Book Club I can't tell how it ended up in here. Perhaps it's how... visual the letters are

[dolores haze]

Bad me! I found them highly entertaining.

[Ken]

If you're not cool with work that the author didn't want to see published you can't read any of Kafka's work at all. He ordered it all burnt and we only have it because Max Brod went against the stipulations of his will. And imagine how the Western Literary Canon would have suffered for that.

... can't argue against that. Hugely influential author. I'm still not cool with reading his works from an ethical standpoint, but sometimes one has to lay aside ethics, as I mentioned above, while not losing sight of the fact that one is trespassing or intruding. I think that's still important. So next time I re-reread Kafka's stories I will give myself periodic slaps on the wrist while turning the pages ;-)

[Kurtz]

... can't argue against that. Hugely influential author. I'm still not cool with reading his works from an ethical standpoint, but sometimes one has to lay aside ethics, as I mentioned above, while not losing sight of the fact that one is trespassing or intruding. I think that's still important. So next time I re-reread Kafka's stories I will give myself periodic slaps on the wrist while turning the pages ;-)

To be honest Kafka was really crazy and had ridiculously low self esteem (read his diaries it's really sad). He thought everything he wrote was rubbish despite it having some of the greatest ideas ever put down to paper. I hate to think how many wonderful manuscripts had been destroyed by people with ideas as profound as old Kafka.

Interestingly he sent his letters to his "friend", who later died at Auschwitz. That was living a Kafka story.

And James Joyce really, really liked farting. This was something totally beyond the pale as far as early 20th Century sexuality was concerned.

[Ken]

... I'm no expert on the subject, but I think the subject of farting was a fascination of sorts among 18th century writers, or at least they weren't at all uncomfortable about mentioning that their characters had let one go. A number of novels I've read from the era delved into the topic at great length as I recall. Perhaps that's where Joyce picked up an interest in it. // Think I'll have to read a short biography on Kafka. You've piqued my interest.