Genrequeer

[Clovia]

Feeling trapped by SFF genre conventions? Does "interstitial" seem like such a catch-all that it's a throwaway term that someone made up to humor you? Like your space-assassins to carry swords and shuriken? "Science Fantasy" still sound like you're lying about the science part?

Okay, all you Third Genre SFF writers who don't really fit the accepted category identities, and don't want to, I'd like to hear about your worlds, and how you describe them to agents, readers, and publishers.

My universe is a chromed-out romance with lots of handwaiving instead of real science, a low-brow fantasy with all the dragons, floating castles, and cursed princesses you could want, in Space Opera drag.

It ain't Sword and Planet, and I'll bite my own tongue off before I'll call it Science Fiction. So. What shall we call it? How should I describe it so that it will seem fresh and interesting, instead of hard to place?

[Shadow_Ferret]

I'm still not even sure what interstitial is (or why it has its own forum here), but I use speculative fiction as a catch all for my fiction, whether it's fantasy, or sword without the sorcery, or space opera, or a world populated with intelligent octopii.

[Clovia]

But, what am I speculating on? It still sounds suspiciously like "interstitial." How do you describe your spec fic so that it doesn't sound likea mishmash that your agent wouldn't know where to put it? Consider it the first of three wishes, O Ferret of the Lamp.

[Kitty Pryde]

Like you said, it's a fantasy novel wearing space opera drag. So, fantasy. Maybe even futuristic fantasy. I don't think that's an 'official' subgenre but it's easily understood.

[Shadow_Ferret]

If I'm subbing the story? I describe the story. Let the agent decide what genre it is. Or I come as close to a genre as I can. Or I take a few genres and mash them together. It's a thriller with urban fantasy elements.

Too many people worry about being spot on with their genre description when the field isn't like that at all. There's plenty of cross-over.

Still not sure what interstitial is, or slipstream, or any of those fancy schmancy new sub-sub-sub genres of speculative fiction.

Just write the query letter that grabs the agent's attention and forget about even mentioning genre.

[Clovia]

What I usually say is "a unique balance of fantasy and science-fiction elements" and that's okay, but maddenly vague.

Kitty Pryde: It is fantasy, but it's not futuristic. Just another time and place. That's the problem with saying it's a fantasy. A lot of people have preconceived notions about their fantasy tropes, same with SF. Some people read it and go, "this is science fiction," because of some of the elements, but it's no more science fiction than say, The Fifth Element.

[Clovia]

To illustrate my problem, here's an article by Anna Genoese, who started up Tor's Paranormal Romance section, and what proper categorization means from an editor's standpoint.

http://www.aleuromancy.net/article_series/demyst/free_articles/article_genre_as_a_marketing_category.html

[Kitty Pryde]

I'm pretty sure agents/editors don't see the word fantasy and think "ah! halflings! trolls! vampires! unicorns! huzzah!" Because they know the market, and they know that there is an extremely wide range of stories classified as 'fantasy'. If you pulled average Joe Doofus off the street, he might think all fantasy contains the exact same elements. But it doesn't matter what Joe Doofus thinks, cause you're not going to try to sell your story to him.

If the fantasy genre can hold Gene Wolfe, China Mieville, and M. John Harrison along with GRRM, Tolkien, and Butcher, it seems like it should be able to hold your story too. I don't know that any subgenre is needed.

[Shadow_Ferret]

To illustrate my problem, here's an article by Anna Genoese, who started up Tor's Paranormal Romance section, and what proper categorization means from an editor's standpoint.

http://www.aleuromancy.net/article_series/demyst/free_articles/article_genre_as_a_marketing_category.html

As that article says, and as I said in another thread, pick an author close to what you're writing (unless you're so totally original that you're the first -- in which case, congrats, you're about to start your own genre, feel free to name it what you will), and just put that in your query. "My story is simlar in some regards to what <insert writer's name here> has written."

[Clovia]

I just have to find <insert writer's name here> and I don't have a subgenre to search from:P

I get what you're saying, both of you--Fantasy is huge, and it encompasses a lot.
But it encompasses a lot. Mine takes place in a city=Urban. They travel through an area most readers are going to secretly identify as space= Space Opera or Sci Fantasy. There's a strong romantic subplot=romance. There's a sort of police procedural/mystery to move the plot along. Gods and whatnots are still mucking around in people's lives=spec fic/paranormal?

It sounds like a jumbled goddamn mess when I try to explain it, but (in my own opinion) reads perfectly to what I see in my head. I like it. I've had agents like it (to a point, obviously). I'm succinct but come at it from the Fantasy angle in my query, which makes the Sci-fantasy aspect a little bit of a surprise. (Gotcha bitch!)

I'm selfish. I want a subgenre for all us sword-wielding space-ninja sorcerers with nosy family patrons and demi-gods. Pthhhpbt.

[Kitty Pryde]

I just have to find <insert writer's name here> and I don't have a subgenre to search from:P

I get what you're saying, both of you--Fantasy is huge, and it encompasses a lot.
But it encompasses a lot. Mine takes place in a city=Urban. They travel through an area most readers are going to secretly identify as space= Space Opera or Sci Fantasy. There's a strong romantic subplot=romance. There's a sort of police procedural/mystery to move the plot along. Gods and whatnots are still mucking around in people's lives=spec fic/paranormal?

I'm selfish. I want a subgenre for all us sword-wielding space-ninja sorcerers with nosy family patrons and demi-gods. Pthhhpbt.

OK-it takes place in a city. But if it's not a real modern Earth city (or a slightly magical earth city, or a fictional earth city that's exactly like, say, Detroit), it's NOT urban fantasy. DQed!

There's space, though that doesn't automatically make it space opera. There are other requirements of space opera, like loads of human drama, spaceships whizzing about, epic world-ending badness being thwarted. Not sure if it qualifies there or not. If they aren't actually in outer space, probably not.

Romantic subplot is NOT equivalent to romance. Romance in the story doesn't make it a romance novel. There are about a million conventions of the romance genre, and I don't know most of them. But for instance, there must be a HEA (happily ever after), and the romance must be the main thrust (hee hee) of the novel. Probably DQed there.

Ditto for mystery, there are loads of conventions to follow, and you probably don't follow them if that's not what you set out to do. DQed.

Paranormal is a subgenre of romance--romance involving one or more fantasy beasties. Again, probably DQed there.

Specfic-probably.
Sci Fantasy-probably.


I feel your pain tho. I'm currently editing my nautical fantasy mystery romance adult bildungsroman. But really, it's just fantasy. Nautical fantasy if I want to be a bit fancy about it.

[Wark]

Science-Fantasy.

[Clovia]

Okay, you guys---here's where my wangst comes from:

"This is a really good book. I enjoyed it a lot. Here is the big problem: This book
does not know what it is.

Many writers firmly believe in genre crossing, genre melding, genre bending—
whatever you want to call it. There are some writers who do it really well, and even
though their books don’t fall into one genre or another, they still sell very well. That’s
because their books have slightly more of one genre than another, so these books can be sold as one thing or another.

......

There are some super cool things in here, but it’s not really a science fiction or
fantasy novel. There’s a romance, but the main characters don’t end up together! There’s a mystery/crime to be unraveled, but it’s not a mystery/crime novel. There’s no one genre at play here, there is no one set of genre conventions, and that makes this book difficult to sell. That is the number one problem, right there."

As you can tell, I pulled a lot of this correspondence out verbatim for some of my comments, and I left a lot of the letter out, because it's personal, and the writer did me a great service. But this is an actual quote from an actual industry professional, regarding my actual book. It has since been rewritten to refocus the story, and I always call it "fantasy" so I'm not misrepresenting it, but this is what I'm dealing with.

[AceTachyon]

Thirding "science-fantasy."

[Medievalist]

Err--dragons don't automatically = fantasy; the Pern novels are actually SF.

The dragons are genetically developed by humans.

[Clovia]

It was a thoughtless generalization. I apologize to all genetically engineered dragons, princess of space-dynasties, and cities kept afloat by scientifically viable means.

[Medievalist]

Frankly, I'm still boggling at the damn thread title.

I note that William Gibson has Voodoo loas in his cyberpunk, Charlie Stross has medieval high fantasy in his otherwise SFnal Merchant novels, and Emma Bull in Finder has a contemporary urban setting with elves and a murder mystery, including a detective.

[DeleyanLee]

Want to find the genre of your story? It's really easy: look at your main plotline/story question/conflict. Boil it all down to that, and you'll have your answer.

Is it explaining the previously unexplained/newly discovered in the world? Probably SF.
Is it following the interpersonal conflicts and growing relationship of a couple: Probably Romance.
Is it exploring the weirdness, creating legendary heroes in the process, a grand struggle between Good and Evile? Probably Fantasy.
Is it discovering and figuring out clues behind a crime/murder? Probably Mystery.

You should get the idea.

Once you have the main genre down, getting the sub-genre down is the icing roses on the cake--nice, but not necessary. In a market where sub-genres redefine and are invented constantly, it's pretty much a losing battle for an author to fuss with it.

I've been doing it this way for several decades and it works for me.

[Shadow_Ferret]

^ Show off.
|
|

:D

[Salis]

Want to find the genre of your story? It's really easy: look at your main plotline/story question/conflict. Boil it all down to that, and you'll have your answer.

Is it explaining the previously unexplained/newly discovered in the world? Probably SF.
Is it following the interpersonal conflicts and growing relationship of a couple: Probably Romance.
Is it exploring the weirdness, creating legendary heroes in the process, a grand struggle between Good and Evile? Probably Fantasy.
Is it discovering and figuring out clues behind a crime/murder? Probably Mystery.

You should get the idea.

Once you have the main genre down, getting the sub-genre down is the icing roses on the cake--nice, but not necessary. In a market where sub-genres redefine and are invented constantly, it's pretty much a losing battle for an author to fuss with it.

I've been doing it this way for several decades and it works for me.

None of the above. I'm fucked.

[Clovia]

See?

[SPMiller]

As you can tell, I pulled a lot of this correspondence out verbatim for some of my comments, and I left a lot of the letter out, because it's personal, and the writer did me a great service. But this is an actual quote from an actual industry professional, regarding my actual book. It has since been rewritten to refocus the story, and I always call it "fantasy" so I'm not misrepresenting it, but this is what I'm dealing with.Does the novel have a cohesive plot? If so, you're fine. Label it with whatever you feel fits best.

[Clovia]

"Does the novel have a cohesive plot? If so, you're fine. Label it with whatever you feel fits best."

Well, I think it does, but I also think I sound great when I sing in the shower;)

[Shadow_Ferret]

None of the above. I'm fucked.

So, it has no main plot or theme or conflict going through it?

You might have more issues then worrying about what genre it is.

[Salis]

So, it has no main plot or theme or conflict going through it?

You might have more issues then worrying about what genre it is.

No, I just wrote up the contents of my latest issue of The Economist in dialogue.

[SPMiller]

You are capable of determining whether your novel has a coherent plot or not. Ask yourself the following questions:

- Is my novel organized into a sequence of scenes (not necessarily in chronological order)?
- Does each scene (except the first) logically follow from the preceding scene?
- Does each scene (except the last) logically proceed into the next scene?
- Does each scene focus on a protagonist striving to achieve a goal opposed by an antagonist (usually resulting in disaster)?

If you can answer "yes" to those questions, then congratulations, your novel has a plot.

Whether it's a good plot is another question entirely ;)

[Gray Rose]

Clovia, until you get a bunch of full rejections from agents commenting on your unsellable genre-bending novel, I wouldn't worry. Some agents don't like to take chances on interstitial stuff, while others do. You can call it "novel" instead of "fantasy novel" or "science fantasy" novel, etc. You could query much more agents this way.
Good luck and don't fret!
Rose

[Clovia]

Thanks, Gray Rose. Two two I've gotten so far were enough to worry me. I'm just surprised no one else has chimed in with the same problems, yet.

[ChaosTitan]

Okay, you guys---here's where my wangst comes from:

"This is a really good book. I enjoyed it a lot. Here is the big problem: This book
does not know what it is.

Many writers firmly believe in genre crossing, genre melding, genre bending—
whatever you want to call it. There are some writers who do it really well, and even
though their books don’t fall into one genre or another, they still sell very well. That’s
because their books have slightly more of one genre than another, so these books can be sold as one thing or another.

......

There are some super cool things in here, but it’s not really a science fiction or
fantasy novel. There’s a romance, but the main characters don’t end up together! There’s a mystery/crime to be unraveled, but it’s not a mystery/crime novel. There’s no one genre at play here, there is no one set of genre conventions, and that makes this book difficult to sell. That is the number one problem, right there."


I'm going to be blunt here and ask if it's possible your book is too unfocused? If two people are giving you the exact same criticism, it's not necessarily a coincidence.

The BookEnds Agency recent did an enlightening blog post (http://bookendslitagency.blogspot.com/2009/07/meaning-of-different.html) on the subject of "too different," using ice cream flavors as an analogy.

You said you have rewritten and refocused, but I'm curious what you focused on.

As Shadow Ferret said at the start of the thread, Speculative Fiction is perfectly appropriate to use. It's an umbrella term for every possible sub-genre you could think of cramming your book into, and it immediately orients the person who's reading the query. It sounds like your dilemma will come when writing the query--knowing how to focus the query's blurb, so the book doesn't sound like a mash-up you wrote using everything except the kitchen sink.

[Clovia]

Yes, ChaosTitan, I believe it was too unfocused. I refocused away from the romance, though it's still strong, and redirected it toward the MC's personal growth arc/black moment. But the worldbuilding elements that made it not-quite-fantasy-or-scifi are still intact.

I saw that Ice Cream post, too, and the analogy was very clear. (Although all I could think is that they sell eel ice cream in Japan.)

I have yet to get any response back on the full since I re-wrote it, so I'm hopeful I've managed to integrate everything better so that the genre-bend isn't such a stumbling block for placement.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Thanks, Gray Rose. Two two I've gotten so far were enough to worry me. I'm just surprised no one else has chimed in with the same problems, yet.


As soon as I actually get around to submitting one of my genre-benders, I will get back to you.