Assisted Suicide

[William Haskins]

LONDON — He spent his life conducting world-renowned orchestras, but was almost blind and growing deaf – the music he loved increasingly out of reach. His wife of 54 years had been diagnosed with terminal cancer. So Edward and Joan Downes decided to die together.

Downes – Sir Edward since he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II in 1991 – and his wife ended their lives last week at a Zurich clinic run by the assisted suicide group Dignitas. They drank a small amount of clear liquid and died hand-in-hand, their two adult children by their side. He was 85 and she was 74.

The deaths were a poignant coda to Edward Downes' illustrious musical career, and have reignited a debate in Britain about whether people should be able to help ailing loved ones end their lives.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/07/14/conductor-edward-downes-a_n_231204.html
The couple's children said Tuesday that they died "peacefully and under circumstances of their own choosing" on Friday.

[Robert Toy]

...they died "peacefully and under circumstances of their own choosing"

Nothing more to say

[clintl]

100% for it. Oregon's law has worked well. As long as adequate safeguards are in place, people should have the right to make this choice.

[KTC]

I am WAY for assisted suicide.

[Plot Device]

"ah'm fer it!"
"ah'm agin' it!"
"ain't quite sure."


Sorry. I don't speak or read in that language.

[KTC]

Sorry. I don't speak or read in that language.

I'm for it.
I'm against it.
I'm not quite sure.


(-;

[som1luvsmi]

Shouldn't that be "t'ain't quite sure."?

[skelly]

I'm against it. If people want to take their own lives, fine. That's on them. If some one or some agency "assists," then it is murder. And honestly, in a society that grants women the right to murder unborn children, do you really want "assisted" suicide available as a medical option?

[dolores haze]

Gosh, I can only hope that I die in such a peaceful and dignified way.

Ah'm fer it.

[Cranky]

Like clintl sez, with the proper safeguards, I'm for it.

[CACTUSWENDY]

I will be blasted for my opinion on this....but what the hey.....

I voted for it. It is my personal opinion and may not jive with others on so many levels. I guess this is some more of the 'freedoms' I think we should have. It's a choice that no one else can make for you but you yourself. When you walk in the shoes of another....you might see things differently.

From other threads we have had on this I understand that many will object to this in any form. Just wait....as the years roll on you may change your mind.

IMHO

[William Haskins]

Sorry. I don't speak or read in that language.

i didn't expect someone as culturally refined as you to be able to.

hopefully kevin's translation will suffice if you can see it from atop your 20-hand horse.

[Kathleen42]

And honestly, in a society that grants women the right to murder unborn children, do you really want "assisted" suicide available as a medical option?

I don't see how one has much, if anything, to do with the other.

I personally have no problem with assisted suicide, though I do prefer a system where regulations are in place.

[rugcat]

Absolutely in favor.

[KTC]

I will be blasted for my opinion on this....but what the hey.....

I voted for it. It is my personal opinion and may not jive with others on so many levels. I guess this is some more of the 'freedoms' I think we should have. It's a choice that no one else can make for you but you yourself. When you walk in the shoes of another....you might see things differently.

From other threads we have had on this I understand that many will object to this in any form. Just wait....as the years roll on you may change your mind.

IMHO


Well, you're in the majority so far.

[Kathleen42]

Is anyone else thinking of the suicide clinic in Soylent Green? Just me then. Okay.

[Plot Device]

I still can't repsond to the poll because it's not in English (in spite of the translation provided by KTC).

[Robert Toy]

Is anyone else thinking of the suicide clinic in Soylent Green? Just me then. Okay.
I've got the munchies now

[William Haskins]

I still can't repsond to the poll because it's not in English (in spite of the translation provided by KTC).

well, then feel free to piss off.

i don't suppose you can link me up to an entry for repsond in the oxford dictionary?

[KTC]

I still can't repsond to the poll because it's not in English (in spite of the translation provided by KTC).

am i missing a humour attempt here, or are you seriously being this difficult? Oh...and repsond is NOT in the English dictionary. (-;

[Plot Device]

Is anyone else thinking of the suicide clinic in Soylent Green? Just me then. Okay.

That and the do-it-yourelf, at-home suicide kit from Children of Men. The name of the kit --available at all fine chemist shops-- was "Quiteus."

[skelly]

I don't see how one has much, if anything, to do with the other.

I personally have no problem with assisted suicide, though I do prefer a system where regulations are in place.
I was reaching a bit, I'll admit. But if assisted suicide is an accepted medical practice I can envision a point at which having to care for all those blasted alzheimer's fucks could constitute an emotional and financial hardship that might justify the use of that accepted medical practice.

[Kathleen42]

That and the do-it-yourelf, at-home suicide kit from Children of Men. The name of the kit --available at all fine chemist shops-- was "Quiteus."

That was so sad :(

[KTC]

it's a matter of dignity, not a matter of ridding the world of Alzheimer fucks.

[Kathleen42]

I was reaching a bit, I'll admit. But if assisted suicide is an accepted medical practice I can envision a point at which having to care for all those blasted alzheimer's fucks could constitute an emotional and financial hardship that might justify the use of that accepted medical practice.

That would fall under mercy killing. Assisted suicide and mercy killing are quite different concepts.

[KTC]

That would fall under mercy killing. Assisted suicide and mercy killing are quite different concepts.

While they still have the last of their faculties...and they request it...I would so fight for their right. I can't imagine knowing that place you are going to.

[skelly]

it's a matter of dignity, not a matter of ridding the world of Alzheimer fucks.
I think we all agree that people have the right to kill themselves. I think where we differ is in whether or not it should be institutionalized. And of course you always eventually have to ask yourself...liver transplants for young people or hospice care for Alzheimer fucks. What to do, what to do.

[shawkins]

I not only support it, I think that in most cases it should be mandatory.

[Cranky]

I still can't repsond to the poll because it's not in English (in spite of the translation provided by KTC).

Clear enough English for what appears to be everyone else. Maybe your internet settings are outta whack? I'm sure that must be it.

[Cranky]

I not only support it, I think that in most cases it should be mandatory.

Mandatory? Would you care to explain? Because honestly, that to me sounds more like forced euthansasia rather than assisted suicide, and to me, they are not morally equivalent.

[Magdalen]

Would this include bestowing the ability to make such a decision on someone with PoA (the kind that includes medical decisions) for their poor suffering Alzheimered relative or spouse? Just wondering how far it would go. Or would it only be for people of sound mind?

I am all for pulling the plug when life is artificially sustained through high-tech equipment. Otherwise, I think suffering is noble.

[KTC]

I think we all agree that people have the right to kill themselves. I think where we differ is in whether or not it should be institutionalized. And of course you always eventually have to ask yourself...liver transplants for young people or hospice care for Alzheimer fucks. What to do, what to do.

okay. okay. i went along with the 'Alzheimer fucks' thing...but i now regret doing so. i've seen it first hand too many times.

i think people have a right to die with dignity. and no...not mercy killing. i mean assisted suicide.

[Plot Device]

am i missing a humour attempt here, or are you seriously being this difficult?

Basically, I am convinced that if I check off an answer of agreement to any of the choices in the poll, I am simultaneously in agreement with how the words have been tampered with and am unavoidably adopting their spellings as my own words. The spellings of all the poll choices are doctored up so that they reflect the stereotypical rural American dialects associated with undereducated back-woods people. I don't mind casting an honest poll choice. I do mind having a label unfairly slapped onto me for making that choice.

It'd be one thing if the entire thread was a silly joking kind of a thread about a joke-worthy topic, and if the news article accompanying it was writting in an obviously joking spirit. But such is not the case.



Oh...and repsond is NOT in the English dictionary. (-;

You're right it's not. But at least I can claim I didn't a) bastardize that word on purpose, b) to belittle other people. I merely made a typo.

My bad.


.

[skelly]

Clear enough English for what appears to be everyone else. Maybe your internet settings are outta whack? I'm sure that must be it.
I thought it was a joke. So pompous ass really is a language?

[shawkins]

Mandatory? Would you care to explain? Because honestly, that to me sounds more like forced euthansasia rather than assisted suicide, and to me, they are not morally equivalent.

It was a wisecrack. Traffic is bad in the ATL this week.

[Plot Device]

That was so sad :(


Yes it was. :(

[KTC]

Otherwise, I think suffering is noble.

not when you don't want to be shitting in your pants...and you know it's coming...or you even had a few occurrences already and you find yourself having lucid moments. that's not noble suffering. that's knowing that you're fucked and you don't want to continue down that road.

[skelly]

okay. okay. i went along with the 'Alzheimer fucks' thing...but i now regret doing so. i've seen it first hand too many times.

i think people have a right to die with dignity. and no...not mercy killing. i mean assisted suicide.
Well I certainly didn't mean to offend. I used the term "fucks" in a manner that was intended to be disparaging of assisted suicide, not Alzheimer's sufferers. My bad and I apologize.

[KTC]

Basically, I am convinced that if I check off an answer of agreement to any of the choices in the poll, I am simultaneously in agreement with how the words have been tampered with and am unavoidably adopting their spellings as my own words. The spellings of all the poll choices are doctored up so that they reflect the stereotypical rural American dialects associated with undereducated back-woods people. I don't mind casting an honest poll choice. I do mind having a label unfairly slapped onto me for making that choice.

It'd be one thing if the entire thread was a silly joking kind of a thread about a joke-worthy topic, and if the news article accompanying it was writting in an obviously joking spirit. But such is not the case.




You're right it's not. But at least I can claim I didn't a) bastardize that word on purpose, b) to belittle other people. I merely made a typo.

My bad.


.


WOW! fashizzle? why bother coming into the thread if you're so incredibly offended? Just click out.

[KTC]

Well I certainly didn't mean to offend. I used the term "fucks" in a manner that was intended to be disparaging of assisted suicide, not Alzheimer's sufferers. My bad and I apologize.


I know, I know. That's why I also went along with it...then I got this image of my grandmother tsking. I was just pulling back. I know what you meant.

[Magdalen]

I watched my mother slowly curl into a ball over the span of 5 years. I'm watching my aunt go through the same thing. I think the power to end one's life is too much for humans to handle.

[shawkins]

Otherwise, I think suffering is noble.

I'm just curious how much actual suffering you've witnessed? I've seen quite a lot of it over the last few years and 'noble' isn't the first word that pops to mind to describe it.

ETA: cross-posted

[Plot Device]

And this past Thrusday I answered the phone as I got out of the shower. It was the hospital telling me that my mother (I'm her Health Care Proxy) had gone into respiratory failure, so they were asking me if I wanted them to intubate her or just let her go. I told them to intubate her. She is now on a ventilator. One of my family objected (back on Thursday that family member objected) and said I should have let her go. I spent two days wondering if perhaps I should have done exactly that. Today I am convinced I made the right decision because she had made such progress that she has astonished the doctors.

I don't think this stuff is worthy of the HillBillySpeak.com word translator.

::EDIT::

1) It should be "Thursday" not "Thrusday." Again, my bad.

2) That family member who objected was my sister-in-law (my brother's wife), and she only objected when I told her on the phone Thursday morning about the decision I had just made. Her response was: "You have to consider that she might not have any reasonable quality of life after this." But then when she arrived the next morning, she never made another peep about it and was on board with the rest of us in pulling for my mom to recover. But her inital objection did haunt me.

[shawkins]

I watched my mother slowly curl into a ball over the span of 5 years. I'm watching my aunt go through the same thing. I think the power to end one's life is too much for humans to handle.

Ah. Well, opinions vary.

[Magdalen]

I'm just curious how much actual suffering you've witnessed? I've seen quite a lot of it over the last few years and 'noble' isn't the first word that pops to mind to describe it.

I've seen plenty.

[William Haskins]

mods, please change the choices to:


i am categorically in favor of such an option.
i am vehemently opposed to such an option.
i am uncertain as to my opinion on this matter.
and, if you could, add a fourth choice:


can anyone assist me in extracting this corn cob from my anus?

[Cranky]

I thought it was a joke. So pompous ass really is a language?

It was a wisecrack. Traffic is bad in the ATL this week.

*checks humor gauge*

Maybe that's what's outta whack. I dunno.

[ricetalks]

I was reaching a bit, I'll admit. But if assisted suicide is an accepted medical practice I can envision a point at which having to care for all those blasted alzheimer's fucks could constitute an emotional and financial hardship that might justify the use of that accepted medical practice.

No. The patient has the right to choose. Not the people who are burdened or charged with taking care of them. I think it would be pretty hard to prove that a patient with alzheimer's was capable of making that decision on their own. And that's the point.

[Plot Device]

mods, please change the choices to:

i am categorically in favor of such an option.
i am vehemently opposed to such an option.
i am uncertain as to my opinion on this matter.and, if you could, add a fourth choice:

can anyone assist me in extracting this corn cob from my anus?


http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon2.gif

[tiny]

can anyone assist me in extracting this corn cob from my anus?

There will never be a large enough team of horses for that epic purpose, but the OBVIOUS trolling directed at you, William, is getting tired and weak.


I'm for assisted suicide as long as it's not a couple of teens who are having a moment.

[KTC]

No. The patient has the right to choose. Not the people who are burdened or charged with taking care of them. I think it would be pretty hard to prove that a patient with alzheimer's was capable of making that decision on their own. And that's the point.

but they can make that decision before they finally fade to the other side of their illness.


And...obviously this is not just about those suffering with Alzheimer's.

[mscelina]

I've seen entirely too much human suffering to not be in favor of assisted suicide. The ability to die in comfort, in dignity, with one's loved ones around you and in circumstances designed to make the transition as painless and easy as possible is one all humans should aspire to.

[ricetalks]

Would this include bestowing the ability to make such a decision on someone with PoA (the kind that includes medical decisions) for their poor suffering Alzheimered relative or spouse? Just wondering how far it would go. Or would it only be for people of sound mind?

I am all for pulling the plug when life is artificially sustained through high-tech equipment. Otherwise, I think suffering is noble.

We'll see how noble you feel when you are the one that is suffering.

[ricetalks]

but they can make that decision before they finally fade to the other side of their illness.


And...obviously this is not just about those suffering with Alzheimer's.

Yes, they can. The trick is to prove it.

[KTC]

We'll see how noble you feel when you are the one that is suffering.

I for one will demand it if i for some reason can't do it by myself.

[Bird of Prey]

I'm fer darailing this here thread so 's I can tell the OP that it sher is hard puttin up an amusin poll when thar's always some sorry feller or lady that just don't git it. . . .

[cethklein]

As long as a person is deemed sane, they have every right to choose their fate. I've noticed that most of those who oppose assisted suicide tend to be more right-leaning folks. I find that a bit ironic, coming from people who want the government to stay out of people's business, but then want the government to tell them whether it's ok to kill themselves.

The government can't even run itslf, it sure as hell doesn't need to be telling people whether they can take their own lives.

[Bubastes]

In theory, I'm in favor of assisted suicide. On the other hand, I keep thinking of the various scenarios and wonder how it would be possible to ensure that it isn't abused. There are several scenarios:

1. Able-bodied and sound mind: people seem to agree that people have a right to commit suicide, even if we don't morally condone it.

2. Somewhat able-bodied, sound mind (can make wishes clear to someone eise): the way I understand it, assisted suicide is where the person committing suicide does the final life-ending act. (Side note: IIRC, Dr. Kevorkian was very careful about this -- he made sure that his patient, not he, pushed the button).

3. Not able-bodied, sound mind: this is no longer assisted suicide because now someone else is carrying out the final life-ending act. So this crosses the line from assisted suicide to euthanasia. If we draw the line to allow assisted suicide but not euthanasia, we have to explain why we're denying the right for someone to end his/her own life simply because they're not able to carry out the final act by themselves.

4. Not able-bodied, wishes made clear ahead of time but not of sound mind currently: same issue as #3, with the added burden of someone having to interpret the person's wishes and make the final call. So if we allow euthanasia, how do we prevent it from being abused?

5. Not able-bodied, wishes never made clear: the most controversial scenario.

When you toss in other factors that are supposed to help with the decision-making, like whether or not the patient has a terminal illness, whether the patient is in pain, depressed, etc., it ends up being a hot mess.

So I guess I'm trying to say that although I'm in favor of choosing when and how to end one's life, the logistics of that decision can get complicated if we're trying to put together a workable policy. I don't trust the government to even keep my taxes straight, so this topic is not something I'd trust them with either.

[skelly]

No. The patient has the right to choose. Not the people who are burdened or charged with taking care of them. I think it would be pretty hard to prove that a patient with alzheimer's was capable of making that decision on their own. And that's the point.
Terri Schiavo

[Magdalen]

We'll see how noble you feel when you are the one that is suffering.

I do and I am.

[Magdalen]

The government can't even run itslf, it sure as hell doesn't need to be telling people whether they can take their own lives.

I'm not sure I understand your position. If a law is passed allowing assisted suicide, that is the gov't telling them they can take their own lives. Anyone can (many do) kill themselves. Where there's a will there's a way, as they say. I don't think our society needs a law sanctioning it.

[Lyv]

Ultimately I am for it. With reservations. When I worked as a hospice RN, more often than you might think, I'd go meet a new patient, who would ask me to hasten their death. I would say what I was trained to say: "If we can control your symptoms and give you a better quality of life, would you still want to die?" Almost invariably, they'd say "no," and almost always, we could get greatly improve their quality of life, and control their symptoms. They were glad for the extra time they'd dreaded.

Which means that before these patients got to us, not enough was being done to control their pain and other symptoms. Even the best doctors sometimes did too little. We had to do a lot of begging and yelling and "No, we aren't giving the meds another 24 hours to work. I want a new prescription/orders NOW." We had to advocate ridiculously hard sometimes just to get our patients stronger medications or a new drug.

I would never oppose assisted suicide as an option, but I think of all the people who asked me to help them die sooner who were later glad I hadn't.

[ricetalks]

Terri Schiavo

She did choose. Which her family just refused to accept.

[ricetalks]

I do and I am.

Then I have no debate with you . to each his own choice. If that sustains you, good. Other people don't find it so. And suffering is also a question of degree and what each person finds of value in it. Hence, choice.

[skelly]

She did choose. Which her family just refused to accept.
No, her husband told us that. Possibly because he was tired of caring for her and had moved on with his life. It can't be proved either way, so I say err on the side of caution. If assisted suicide becomes an accepted medical practice then I can imagine more of these scenarios.

It always seems to boil down to the bumper-sticker slogan of "death with dignity." As Mag has pointed out, people are free to do whatever they wish to themselves without legislation being enacted on their behalf. Gather your family together, make a big-ass speech, and blow your g.d. brains out. Or drink poison kool-aid. Or whatever. Why do we need laws? Why do we need special facilities?

[ricetalks]

I'm all for dodign everything possible to help people maintain and find value in their lives. But when it truly comes to the end of the road, when all is pain and their is no enjoyment, when there is no purpose, when a person says I have tried everything, or you have tried everything and still there is nothing but pain, and my death is simply inevitable, that I am now going through a long and enduring process of death and I would just simply like to end it and not go through that process, I find it hard to take a stand against them and say, from my priviledged postion of have a heathy life in front of me, "No, you can't do that. You must endure whatever the process of death throws at you."

[Magdalen]

Terry Schiavo doesn't count because her life was being artificially sustained.

Why do we need laws? Why do we need special facilities?

So somebody else can make a profit on death.

[Magdalen]

I find it hard to take a stand against them and say, from my priviledged postion of have a heathy life in front of me, "No, you can't do that. You must endure whatever the process of death throws at you."

How do you know that there is no value in the pain endured? Do you know what happens to someone once they die?

[mscelina]

Surely you're not serious.

"Assisted" suicide should be self-explanatory, skelly. To "assist" the terminally ill to end their own lives in such a manner that they experience no pain and there's little chance the whole procedure gets botched. We need laws to protect those who assist a suicide from being prosecuted for murder. We need special facilities so that the assisted suicide is painless and mistake-free.

And there is no dignity involved in shooting yourself or drinking poison.

[aadams73]

No, her husband told us that. Possibly because he was tired of caring for her and had moved on with his life.

If I'm in that much of a vegetative state, I would WANT the man I love to pull the plug and get on with his life.

And I'm all for assisted suicide. Although I'm against some ansty person killing themselves because "boohoo, life is hard."

[backslashbaby]

I do agree with assisted suicide. But it makes me very sad when it is called 'death with dignity' as if to imply that the things the person wants to avoid are undignified. Yes, health problems can be ugly, but I have total respect for anyone suffering with awful symptoms.

There is nothing undignified about having a brain disease or cancer.

My mother became rather ill before she died of cancer a few years ago. I took care of her. We still had fun. She felt like a burden because of society's attitude toward ugly symptoms, but she meant much more to me than something as understandable as needing to buy her Depends bothering me.

There needs to be a different word than 'dignity' applied to those folks, imho. Choice?

[beezle]

I am in favour of voluntary euthanasia in terminal patients suffering pain and indignity. That said, this isn't the ideal poster case for the cause. The man was old, blind and going deaf. That's not why he killed himself. He killed himself because his wife was killing herself. If we knocked 30 years off their ages I don't think everyone would be so comfortable with this same scenario.

[skelly]

Terry Schiavo doesn't count because her life was being artificially sustained.



So somebody else can make a profit on death.
Gosh I hate to disagree with you to any extent, Mag, especially when we seem to be on the same side of the issue at hand. But Terrie Shiavo does count, and her life was her own, however it was being sustained. We have no proof that she preferred being starved to death to whatever state she was existing in.

[Cranky]

Surely you're not serious.

"Assisted" suicide should be self-explanatory, skelly. To "assist" the terminally ill to end their own lives in such a manner that they experience no pain and there's little chance the whole procedure gets botched. We need laws to protect those who assist a suicide from being prosecuted for murder. We need special facilities so that the assisted suicide is painless and mistake-free.

And there is no dignity involved in shooting yourself or drinking poison.

I completely agree with this.

[ricetalks]

No, her husband told us that. Possibly because he was tired of caring for her and had moved on with his life. It can't be proved either way, so I say err on the side of caution. If assisted suicide becomes an accepted medical practice then I can imagine more of these scenarios.

It always seems to boil down to the bumper-sticker slogan of "death with dignity." As Mag has pointed out, people are free to do whatever they wish to themselves without legislation being enacted on their behalf. Gather your family together, make a big-ass speech, and blow your g.d. brains out. Or drink poison kool-aid. Or whatever. Why do we need laws? Why do we need special facilities?

Terri Schavo was dead. By any legal or medical definition, she was dead. Only the machines were keeping her artificially alive. There was absolutely no hope of her ever regaining consciousness and living her life, which the autopsy proved. Her brain had liquified.

She had previously stated her views on what she believed should happen to her if she was ever in the condition that she was. They unplugged her from the machines that were, at this point, medical interference and her body was unable to sustain its own life.

Human life is more than oxygenated corpusels moving through your veins.

[skelly]

Surely you're not serious.

"Assisted" suicide should be self-explanatory, skelly. To "assist" the terminally ill to end their own lives in such a manner that they experience no pain and there's little chance the whole procedure gets botched. We need laws to protect those who assist a suicide from being prosecuted for murder. We need special facilities so that the assisted suicide is painless and mistake-free.

And there is no dignity involved in shooting yourself or drinking poison.
I disagree. As far as I am concerned, "assisted suicide" is a misnomer. If you help someone kill themselves you are an accessory to murder. The method is irrelevant. I would support the legality of some "assisted suicide machine" that a person could use in place of the gun or the poison kool-aide. And as for the "facility," most terminal people I know want one thing above all others...to die at home, surrounded by their loved ones.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.

[shawkins]

Why do we need laws? Why do we need special facilities?

IIRC, the bulk of the people who made use of assisted suicide laws were late stage multiple sclerosis patients who were physically incapable of doing it to themselves.

Using that special case as a general guideline, I'd argue that the need for legalized assisted suicide stems from two things: 1) it's the patient's body, not the state's. The patient has the right to do with it as they wish, regardless of whether they're currently capable of acting on those wishes and 2) it relieves caregivers of the added stress of wondering whether going to go to prison for doing what is asked of them.

[ricetalks]

How do you know that there is no value in the pain endured? Do you know what happens to someone once they die?

No I don't know. And neither do you. That is why I think it is up to each individual to decide and I don't think that anyone is qualified to tell that person, "No, you are wrong. You must endure the suffering that you don't see any point in enduring because I said so. Because, in spite of how you, the person that is going through this suffering feels, I know better."

[BenPanced]

"Suffering is noble"? Jeez, somebody's been watching too many made-for-Lifetime TV movies.

Ah'm awl fer it.

[Magdalen]

Gosh I hate to disagree with you to any extent, Mag, especially when we seem to be on the same side of the issue at hand. But Terrie Shiavo does count, and her life was her own, however it was being sustained. We have no proof that she preferred being starved to death to whatever state she was existing in.


It's okay, scott. I just think that there's a big difference between having life prolonged by medical advances (sustained life ) vs having a horrible, painful, prolonged death, or even having a condition (such as Alzheimer's) that seriously prevents one from having the type of quality of life that one would otherwise choose. And I am not against someone choosing to end their own life for their own reasons. I just don't think it should be legalized in America.

[skelly]

IIRC, the bulk of the people who made use of assisted suicide laws were late stage multiple sclerosis patients who were physically incapable of doing it to themselves.

Using that special case as a general guideline, I'd argue that the need for legalized assisted suicide stems from two things: 1) it's the patient's body, not the state's. The patient has the right to do with it as they wish, regardless of whether they're currently capable of acting on those wishes and 2) it relieves caregivers of the added stress of wondering whether going to go to prison for doing what is asked of them.
I fully agree that your body belongs to you, not the state. And as I have already said I believe that people have the right to end their lives if they so choose. The disposition of these extreme cases is a peripheral issue. The issue at hand, as I understand it, is whether or not the "state" should sanction or in any manner legitimize assisted suicide.

I say "no" for all the "slippery slope" reasons that I have already outlined. People have been killing themselves for ages, and for a variety of reasons. I don't know that it needs to be regulated.

[Magdalen]

No I don't know. And neither do you. That is why I think it is up to each individual to decide and I don't think that anyone is qualified to tell that person, "No, you are wrong. You must endure the suffering that you don't see any point in enduring because I said so. Because, in spite of how you, the person that is going through this suffering feels, I know better."

People have that choice now. A law making it legal (and profitable for those on the administrative side)to do so practically promotes the practice.

ETA: I can just hear the commercials for it now: "Is your quality of life less than what it was 20 years ago? Have you had thoughts of suicide not brought on my MAOIs or other medications you may be currently taking? At Nd-It-All, We can help. We have a professionally trained staff of youthful and attractive euthanastic technicans who will will make your final moments dignified and pleasant. Call Now! 1-800-DIE-EASY"

[skelly]

Not to interrupt an otherwise enthralling debate, but, Haskins. Do you have a horse in this race or is this poll part of some research project?

[shawkins]

I fully agree that your body belongs to you, not the state. And as I have already said I believe that people have the right to end their lives if they so chose. The disposition of these extreme cases is a peripheral issue. The issue at hand, as I understand it, is whether or not the "state" should sanction or in any manner legitimize assisted suicide.

I say "no" for all the "slippery slope" reasons that I have already outlined. People have been killing themselves for ages, and for a variety of reasons. I don't know that it needs to be regulated.

Well, it's only peripheral if you're not one of the people involved.

So let's say that it's your brother. He got diagnosed with primary progressive M.S. in his early 20s. His central nervous system's been rotting away a little more every day, ever since Reagan was president. Now he can't eat without your help, and his quality of life makes quadroplegics feel serene about the hand life has dealt them. One day he's had enough. He asks you to help him die.

What do you do?

OK. Fair enough. You stuck by your principles. Good job on taking a stand against slippery slopes.

Sadly, though, your mother lacks your moral fiber. One day when you're out at the store she decides she can't stand to see her baby suffer anymore. Not being wise in the ways of the world, she leaves forensic traces. The county sheriff is up for re-election and he decides to prosecute.

What's your position on that?

[Williebee]

I'm for it. But then, I'm for the right to self-termination for any adult, so long as they don't leave "a mess", both physically or materially -- no undue financial or other obligations left behind for others to clean up, and don't take anyone else with them. Perhaps it is a logical extension of "pro choice"?

[Don]

Williebee nailed it. Ever-doze should be available over the counter. The ultimate statement of self-ownership is to check out when and as you prefer.

[Bubastes]

And what if you're unable to take that Ever-doze yourself? If you can't swallow the pill, should you be able to have someone help you? That's where the debate seems to start -- how much and what kind of help you can have in ending your own life.

[skelly]

Well, it's only peripheral if you're not one of the people involved.

So let's say that it's your brother. He got diagnosed with primary progressive M.S. in his early 20s. His central nervous system's been rotting away a little more every day, ever since Reagan was president. Now he can't eat without your help, and his quality of life makes quadroplegics feel serene about the hand life has dealt them. One day he's had enough. He asks you to help him die.

What do you do?

OK. Fair enough. You stuck by your principles. Good job on taking a stand against slippery slopes.

Sadly, though, your mother lacks your moral fiber. One day when you're out at the store she decides she can't stand to see her baby suffer anymore. Not being wise in the ways of the world, she leaves forensic traces. The county sheriff is up for re-election and he decides to prosecute.

What's your position on that?
My position is that the mother is guilty of murder. You forgot to put the part in where the MS patient asks to be killed. And I have had to preside over the "end-of-life" issues of my own mother. And we can over-personalize this topic if we keep going in this direction.

I respect you opinion shawkins, I agree with some of what you have to say and I empathize with the rest.

Again, assisted suicide as an accepted medical practice strikes me as antithetical to the whole concept of medical practice.

eta....my bad. Yes you did. All else the same.

[skelly]

I'm for it. But then, I'm for the right to self-termination for any adult, so long as they don't leave "a mess", both physically or materially -- no undue financial or other obligations left behind for others to clean up, and don't take anyone else with them. Perhaps it is a logical extension of "pro choice"?
Indeed it is.

[Don]

Whatever arrangements you make prior to losing the ability to self-medicate should control, IMO. Golddigger Gail, the recent wife of Billionaire Bobby, shouldn't be able to appear before a friendly magistrate and get permission to become a rich widow just because Bobby's having a few problems remembering his name.

[C.bronco]

Life is precious. If we ignore that it is a gift, we lose.

[shawkins]

You forgot to put the part in where the MS patient asks to be killed.

Beg pardon? It's right there at the end of paragraph 2. (--and always has been. The edit on that post was because I always misspell sheriff.)

And we can over-personalize this topic if we keep going in this direction.

My point is that every assisted suicide case, without exception, is personal for someone. While I agree that doing it yourself whenever possible is a cleaner option, dismissing the human and legal consequences for those who are unable to do it themselves is maybe not entirely cool.

And I think that's sort of what we're debating here, yes?

I respect you opinion shawkins, I agree with some of what you have to say and I empathize with the rest.

Good of you to say. Sincere apologies if I didn't make this clear, but that that last post was purely hypothetical. I'm familiar with similar cases, but my brother is fine. But in that same vein, sorry about your Mom.

[SPMiller]

Ah'm fer it!

[C.bronco]

I once got a gift certificate for Dr. Kervorkian, but I will never use it, because there are others in the world who are important to me, and I ain't no wussy.

[skelly]

Beg pardon? It's right there at the end of paragraph 2. (--and always has been. The edit on that post was because I always misspell sheriff.)



My point is that every assisted suicide case, without exception, is personal for someone. While I agree that doing it yourself whenever possible is a cleaner option, dismissing the human and legal consequences for those who are unable to do it themselves is maybe not entirely cool.

And I think that's sort of what we're debating here, yes?



Good of you to say. Sincere apologies if I didn't make this clear, but that that last post was purely hypothetical. I'm familiar with similar cases, but my brother is fine. But in that same vein, sorry about your Mom.
I think we can leave it there and agree that we don't agree. And if you will check my previous post you will see where I edited and acknowledge that you had, in fact, construed your hypothetical to include consent on the part of the MS patient.

I think we are arguing separate parts of this issue. The situation that you describe is certainly valid and deserves discussion. In this thread I'm trying to make a point that does not relate to what you are describing.

I look forward to engaging you in that debate at some other time.

[Magdalen]

<snip> Not being wise in the ways of the world, she leaves forensic traces. The county sheriff is up for re-election and he decides to prosecute.

What's your position on that?

Clearly, the sheriff is a corrupt asshole and the mother is a compassionate caregiver. No charges should be brought.

[Williebee]

assisted suicide as an accepted medical practice strikes me as antithetical to the whole concept of medical practice.

What about the "quality of life" aspect of that medical practice?

[skelly]

What about the "quality of life" aspect of that medical practice?
How do we quantify "quality of life?" Who is qualified to do that? Doctors? The government? Carl Sagan?

There is an answer. We are each of us qualified to determine our own "quality of life." If we choose to terminate our lives because our so-called "quality of life" has fallen below an acceptable level, so be it. As long as we are deciding what constitutes an "acceptable level," and as long as we are taking our own lives without assistance, and of our own free will.

[TerzaRima]

Do you want all physicians to have this particular power?

[mscelina]

How do we quantify "quality of life?" Who is qualified to do that? Doctors? The government? Carl Sagan?

There is an answer. We are each of us qualified to determine our own "quality of life." If we choose to terminate our lives because our so-called "quality of life" has fallen below an acceptable level, so be it. As long as we are deciding what constitutes an "acceptable level," and as long as we are taking our own lives without assistance, and of our own free will.

A mentally competent adult individual is able to determine quality of life for themselves, or to make provisions for that quality of life should he or she ever become incapacitated to the point they are incapable of verbalizing that directive--as in a living will.

[shawkins]

I once got a gift certificate for Dr. Kervorkian, but I will never use it, because there are others in the world who are important to me, and I ain't no wussy.

I applaud the sentiment, but I'd argue that 'never' is an awfully big word.

I think we can leave it there

OK.

Clearly, the sheriff is a corrupt asshole and the mother is a compassionate caregiver. No charges should be brought.

I agree, but <shrug> my understanding is that the way the law is currently written in the U.S. makes prosecution an option. I'm arguing that we should make it legally permissible to implement the terminally ill person's wishes in this sort of case, assuming they are (or were) mentally competent and expressed such wishes.

How do we quantify "quality of life?" Who is qualified to do that? Doctors? The government? Carl Sagan?

My argument extends only to those cases in which the person who is up for euthanasia expressed their intentions directly, either through a living will or saying it out loud.

Do you want all physicians to have this particular power?

No. Only Dr. House. He's a very nice man, and smart as well.

[AMCrenshaw]

Freedom to life, freedom to death.

It's mine and I shall take it if I want to (and, at some point, I might need help doing so).


AMC

[Dommo]

If I can decide how to live, why can't I decide how to die? Being able to decide when and how I'll die is something that a person should be able to do, especially if they've reached a point where their quality of life is awful(e.g. final stages of Lou Gehrig's disease or something), or where they're completely boned(e.g. my apollo spacecraft is broken and I'm stranded on the moon).

It's my life, and I'll live it on my terms, and ideally die on my terms.

[Zoombie]

I'd rather have a professional kill me.

But I'd really rather not die.

We all know how likely that is, though...

[KTC]

Freedom to life, freedom to death.

It's mine and I shall take it if I want to (and, at some point, I might need help doing so).


AMC

AMEN

[Rarri]

Surely you're not serious.

"Assisted" suicide should be self-explanatory, skelly. To "assist" the terminally ill to end their own lives in such a manner that they experience no pain and there's little chance the whole procedure gets botched. We need laws to protect those who assist a suicide from being prosecuted for murder. We need special facilities so that the assisted suicide is painless and mistake-free.

And there is no dignity involved in shooting yourself or drinking poison.

Well said. Suicide attempts do succeed, but frequently they aren't 'successful'; there's little guarantee of being able to kill yourself, whatever method you choose: cliffs, guns, trains etc. More importantly, as has been said, there's no dignity involved in attempting suicide alone where the suffering may be immense but not successful.

I disagree. As far as I am concerned, "assisted suicide" is a misnomer. If you help someone kill themselves you are an accessory to murder. The method is irrelevant. I would support the legality of some "assisted suicide machine" that a person could use in place of the gun or the poison kool-aide. And as for the "facility," most terminal people I know want one thing above all others...to die at home, surrounded by their loved ones.

I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it.

Perhaps i'm missing something here, but at Dignitas - as far as i'm aware - the barbituates are self-administered (IE within a drink) and only prepared by the 'professional' who is assisting.

So i do support assisted suicide, but i feel the regulation surrounding it needs to incredibly strict in order to do as much as possible to avoid abuse of the system. I don't think the option of assisted suicide should only be open to those who are terminally ill; there are many illnesses which aren't terminal but where a person may choose to end their life at the right time for them and with dignity. Also, perhaps this is because i'm so used to the NHS etc, but i don't think assisted suicide should cost a person anything; for the few that truly 'qualify', i don't think they should have to pay for a dignified death. But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Zoombie]

I think an important thing that would have to exist in any law concerning assisted sucide would be a focus on ulterior motives.

To prevent people trying to bump others off for their money or somesuch like that.

[SPMiller]

I'm just curious how much actual suffering you've witnessed? I've seen quite a lot of it over the last few years and 'noble' isn't the first word that pops to mind to describe it.

ETA: cross-postedDitto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto ditto.

[Don]

Okay, after sleeping on it, I have one little "outlandish" scenario that concerns me considering the legalization of suicide.

"Dateline 2029: In the latest effort to reduce the burden on Social Security, FedGov has announced the following benefits to accrue to the estate of the next one million people who appear at the ever-sleep clinics."

Of course, no such thing would ever happen, right? It's a foolish slippery-slope argument, right?


Anyone?

Bueller?

[SPMiller]

Yeah, that's an excellent example of the standard slippery-slope argument (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/slippery-slope.html). Thanks, Don.

[Don]

I really liked this example from that slippery slope argument page. What a totally silly argument. It sure shows how ridiculous the whole slippery slope argument is. :rolleyes:

"The US shouldn't get involved militarily in other countries. Once the government sends in a few troops, it will then send in thousands to die."

[SPMiller]

Alright, Don. Humor me. Provide factual support for that argument, which you clearly believe is so reasonable.

[Diana Hignutt]

Yes, I'm 100% for assisted suicide...but not the mandatory kind (like in Logan's Run).

[clintl]

We have 11 years of history with assisted suicide from Oregon now, and there no evidence of a slippery slope danger.

[Gretad08]

My life, my death, my choice.

Buuuuut...If we're gonna allow assisted suicide, then certain circumstances need to be present. For example, a terminal illness, chronic painful degenerative illness etc.

We don't need every angst filled teen-ager seeking a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

[Don]

Then again, Greta, think of that as evolution in action. :rolleyes:

[Gretad08]

Then again, Greta, think of that as evolution in action. :rolleyes:

Imagine the possibilities of speeding up the evolution process by 'encouraging' certain groups to just end their own suffering...Wow, what a utopia we could have!