Point of View

[RoseWrites]

What point of view do you use most effectively? Does it depend on the story you're writing or do you stick with the same POV each time?

[sunandshadow]

My favorite point of view is first person because it works well both with my voice (chatty and introspective) and with my subject matter (romance, philosophy, being tossed into odd circumstances to which one must adapt). But I will use second or third person if it works better for the particular story, like if I am writing a myth or fairy tale those pretty much only work in third person.

[KimJo]

I do far better writing in first person because it seems to me more like the character is telling his own story. And although I'm female, my first-person POV characters are almost always male.

[Ronda]

In my novel I'm using third person, but when I switch focal characters, the way they think is the way the story comes out. I tend to use first person a lot more in my short stories, but occasionally third person.

[azbikergirl]

Very occasionally I write in first person and never in omniscient third or second. (I will not even read a story written in second person. It grates on me like few things do.) I prefer third person limited with "deep penetration" (as OSC calls it).

[skyi001]

Years ago I just couldn't read any book written in first person, don't know why. I guess my tastes have changed because now it doesn't bother me, and one of my WIPs is in first person. It's challenging, and fun to write.

[pepperlandgirl]

I'll write a few short stories in first person, but I tend to prefer third person limited. I used to have hopping head syndrome in a bad way, and I found the best way to kick that habit was to be devout to 3rd person limited.

[Garpy]

What puts me off writing 1st person is that there are no other words (I can think of) that you can use instead of 'I'. And after a while reading/writing 'I' did this, 'I' did that gets a bit tiresome.

Also...excuse my appalling ignorance, but what is 2nd person POV?

[jules]

"You" is second person.

Consider it in terms of somebody-1 talking to somebody-2 about somebody-3 else; if I were to do this to you, I'd be the first person (somebody-1), you'd be the second person (somebody-2) and they'd be the third person (somebody-3).

I almost always write in third person. Most of my plots are of a complexity where it helps to be able to show different viewpoints than the protagonist's at times.

[Diana Hignutt]

To me the story dictates POV. A complex novel requires third person POV so you can present the story from different perspectives for the different story arcs.

Having said that, I do intend to work on a first person POV novel once I complete my WIP, and I have used 1st person for stories. Anne Rice (one of my favs) manages to effectively use first person to tell complex stories, by having other characters tell their stories to the narrator.

In the end, whatever works for you...

diana

[Kiva Wolfe]

Hi Diana:

Glad you asked this question. I enjoy writing in second, sometimes third person, using multiple-character POVs to go with my multiple viewpoints. I avoid first person like the plague, because I can't stand listening to myself, and it could lead to a serious argument I will invariably find myself on the flipside of. LOL.

I guess it depends on the writer, how they choose to write the story, and which POV they feel makes it stronger. Try writing it in 1st person, then rewrite it in second and third. Shift the character POV. If nothing else, it's great fun on a rainy day, and you will probably discover you're the right track.

[DragonHeart]

I use third person almost exclusively. There's only a couple of exceptions when I've used first for short pieces, and I've never used second. I'm not sure why, but it probably comes from how I've only read a couple of novels in first person and found I wasn't fond of the style.

Someday I might write a novel in first person to challenge myself, but for now I'll stick with what I know. ;)

~DragonHeart~

[RoseWrites]

Does anyone think or knows if this matters when submitting a manuscript? I've never heard one way or another if one style of POV is prefered, but maybe I'm missing something?

[sunandshadow]

There are more 3rd person novels published than 1st person, and way more of either than of 2nd person. 1st person novels are actually a fairly new invention, and I imagine some older editors might consider it an 'unprofessional' voice. It might depend on the genre you're working in too.

[sunandshadow]

To me the story dictates POV. A complex novel requires third person POV so you can present the story from different perspectives for the different story arcs.

I dunno, I feel I'm accomplishing that quite well using rotating 1st.

[RoseWrites]

in my case, my novel is a nonfiction story..memoir, so would 1st person pov seem more ideal?

[Mistook]

To me the story dictates POV. A complex novel requires third person POV so you can present the story from different perspectives for the different story arcs.

Having said that, I do intend to work on a first person POV novel once I complete my WIP, and I have used 1st person for stories. Anne Rice (one of my favs) manages to effectively use first person to tell complex stories, by having other characters tell their stories to the narrator.

In the end, whatever works for you...

diana


I agree with this. If the story has an "epic" dimension - if it's larger than just one character, and if there are several principal actors who may be widely separated through parts of the story, then you'd better be good with 3rd Person.

[Mistook]

in my case, my novel is a nonfiction story..memoir, so would 1st person pov seem more ideal?


A nonfiction memoir would lend itself to 1st Person. 3rd Person would seem presumptuous, because not only are you referring to yourself in the 3rd person (always a faux pas), but it may seem you are presuming to have intimate knowledge of the thoughts and feelings of others, when in fact you may not.

[jules]

1st person novels are actually a fairly new invention, and I imagine some older editors might consider it an 'unprofessional' voice.

That doesn't sound right to me; some of the oldest novels I've read are in first person (although I'll admit to not having read particularly far back into history!). Certainly there were common in the 19th century.

I think the most recent development has been 3rd person limited POV, where it is understood that interpretations placed on events are those that would be made by the character who is the focus of the section those interpretations are stated in. AFAICT this convention really only developed towards the end of the 19th century, and earlier novels were more often written in omniscient POV if in 3rd person. I haven't heard any suggestion that this is thought of as unprofessional, though, as it is the way most modern novels are written.

[Roger J Carlson]

I use third person limited exclusively (at least so far). Most of the books on writing I've read have recommended that novice writers avoid first person. Their reasoning is that first person need a 100% consistant voice and few new writers can do that effectively.

For myself, I suppose I could write a first person novel if the narrator was a middle-aged programmer who is a desk-bound analytic. I wouldn't be able to effectively write in the first person about a homeless woman, a daring adventurer, a criminal, or any number of personality types with which I have no experience. I wouldn't be able to create a consistant voice.

[Azure Skye]

Third person limited, light penetration.

[azbikergirl]

I wouldn't be able to effectively write in the first person about a homeless woman, a daring adventurer, a criminal, or any number of personality types with which I have no experience. I wouldn't be able to create a consistant voice.
I'll bet you'd surprise yourself. I'm not fond of 1st person, but for one story I needed to use it. It's a novelette about how and why one of my novel's villains became evil. I despised him when I started (I'd written the novel first, in which he was already evil), so the only way to portray him as a sympathetic character was to completely get into his mind. First person was the easiest way for me to do that.

[Roger J Carlson]

I'll bet you'd surprise yourself.LOL. I still think they'd all sound like middle-aged, desk-bound, analytic programmers.

[oswann]

I use third person limited exclusively (at least so far). Most of the books on writing I've read have recommended that novice writers avoid first person. Their reasoning is that first person need a 100% consistant voice and few new writers can do that effectively.

For myself, I suppose I could write a first person novel if the narrator was a middle-aged programmer who is a desk-bound analytic. I wouldn't be able to effectively write in the first person about a homeless woman, a daring adventurer, a criminal, or any number of personality types with which I have no experience. I wouldn't be able to create a consistant voice.



First person can also say "newbie". The new writer imagines themselves in different situations and writes in first person.

Os.

[Nicholas S.H.J.M Woodhouse]

Third person limited, light penetration.

One could say that third person allows you to enter the minds of many characters. Its all about how you use it. A book that uses third person can delve into scenes with much greater depth. For example, a first person from the hero's POV just tells you what they want, how right they are etc. However, a third person can tell us about the situations of both the hero and the villain, and thus grant the story much more tension and drama - because they are both justified.

[Jamesaritchie]

There are more 3rd person novels published than 1st person, and way more of either than of 2nd person. 1st person novels are actually a fairly new invention, and I imagine some older editors might consider it an 'unprofessional' voice. It might depend on the genre you're working in too.

No one is really sure how old first person POV is, but it's been around for at least several hundred years, and some think it may be the oldest form of storytelling there is. There's nothing modern about first person. First person POV has been around for as long as what we now call fiction has existed.

However old it is, unless an editor went to school before Mark Twain, Herman Melville, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Edgar Allan Poe, or a whole slew of other writers from the same period started writing, he should have read a bunch of very famous and very professional first person fiction in class.

The problem with first person isn't that it's modern. It's ancient. The problem isn't that it's in any way unprofessional. Thousands of professional writers have used first person well, and a great many of them have become famous.

Huckleberry Finn is considered by many to be the greast American novel ever written, and it was first person. So was Moby Dick.

The main problem with first person is that new writers seem to think it's the easiest POV to write, and it just isn't. Most first person from new writers is pretty bad, and that's being kind. Third person limited is much easier for new writers to master, and editors know this. Most editors have no bias against first person, only against first person from first time writers.

[Jamesaritchie]

For myself, I suppose I could write a first person novel if the narrator was a middle-aged programmer who is a desk-bound analytic. I wouldn't be able to effectively write in the first person about a homeless woman, a daring adventurer, a criminal, or any number of personality types with which I have no experience. I wouldn't be able to create a consistant voice.

I don't think third person lets a writer off the hook in this area. First person or third, you'd better find a consitent voice for any of these characters, and it had better ring true.

The difference between first and third person is simply one of distance, not of character voice.

[maestrowork]

I don't think "first person" says "newbie." Not at all. A lot of seasoned, well-known authors write in 1st person. It's harder to do than most 3rd person, though, and that's when your skills as a "newbie" (if you're one) become more obvious.

1st person has been around for ages.

[Roger J Carlson]

I don't think third person lets a writer off the hook in this area. First person or third, you'd better find a consitent voice for any of these characters, and it had better ring true.

The difference between first and third person is simply one of distance, not of character voice.
I didn't say that third person characters can be inconsistent. All characters need to be consistent. But with third person, only their words, actions, and a few thoughts need consistency. With first person, all of the narrator's thoughts must be consistent with his character. That's a lot harder to sustain over the course of a novel. It's also why most new writers do it so poorly. (including myself.)

I think it's more than a matter of distance. I think it's a matter of magnitude.

[batgirl]

My impression was that sunandshadow meant to say '2nd person' rather than '1st person'.
For 2nd person narration, those observations would be correct. It is a new form, and most editors would not welcome it.
It's used sometimes in fanfic. Some fanfic sites forbid it, along with songfics.
I also recall it having been used occasionally in horror comics in my youth. "And then what did you do, Richard? You cleaned the blood from the knife! Did you regret what you had done?" sort of thing.

[Jamesaritchie]

My impression was that sunandshadow meant to say '2nd person' rather than '1st person'.
For 2nd person narration, those observations would be correct. It is a new form, and most editors would not welcome it.
It's used sometimes in fanfic. Some fanfic sites forbid it, along with songfics.
I also recall it having been used occasionally in horror comics in my youth. "And then what did you do, Richard? You cleaned the blood from the knife! Did you regret what you had done?" sort of thing.

Second person is the least used POV, but even second person isn't all that modern, and any editor should be aware of a POV that's been used in best-selling novels, and been turned into movies. I'm not at all fond of second person most of the time, but sometimes it works very well. My favorite second person novel is "Bright Lights, Big City," by Jay McInerney.

Poets and short story writers have been using second person for eons. And, yes, it's long been a form of narration in horror tales, both fiction and comic.

It's just that second person can be very difficult to maintain in something of novel length, but some writers have certainly managed it over the years.

I don't write second person, and I usually do my best to avoid reading it, but it can be done very well, and I think Jay McInerney is one of the best at using it.

[sunandshadow]

My impression was that sunandshadow meant to say '2nd person' rather than '1st person'.

No, I really did mean to say 1st person. I'm astonished - have none of you encountered the prejudice against first person I have? I have had English teachers tell me that it was much more difficult for a manuscript written in first person to get published and a few who refused to accept assignments written in first person. I have also occasionally seen publisher's style sheets that specify manuscripts must be written in 3rd person. I know that as a science fiction and fantasy writer I have encountered way more published 3rd person books than 1st person books.

[Jamesaritchie]

No, I really did mean to say 1st person. I'm astonished - have none of you encountered the prejudice against first person I have? I have had English teachers tell me that it was much more difficult for a manuscript written in first person to get published and a few who refused to accept assignments written in first person. I have also occasionally seen publisher's style sheets that specify manuscripts must be written in 3rd person. I know that as a science fiction and fantasy writer I have encountered way more published 3rd person books than 1st person books.

The prejudice usually isn't against first person, it's against unpublished writers who always seem to think first person is easier.

First person is more common in some genres than others. Mystery is written in first person as often as not. Maybe more often. Same with westerns. I think all my favorite mystery novelists write in first person. Lawrence Block and Robert B. Parker are right at the top of the list. The Spenser novels are famous, and made one heck of a good TV series, along with several movies.

One of the really famous first person series was that of Travis McGee by John D, MacDonald. When you get mentioned in a Jimmy Buffet song, you're doing all right. And Louis L'Amour's most popular novels were, by a very wide margin, all written in first person.

First person is less common in science fiction and fantasy, though it still occurs now and then. All genres have a share of first person novels, and always have.

Even Stephen King and Dean Koontz have written first person horror novels. And Stephen King's first person novel, Bag of Bones, was a very long novel, and won him some major awards. The Christopher Snow novels Dean Koontz wrote, and is still writing, were extremely popular, and I think his best novels in years.

I've read through slush piles, and first person written by unpublished writers is almost universally bad. It seems so much easier to write than third person, but it's really much harder for a new writer to do well. But for whatever reason, a great many new writers write in first person regardless of how hard they're told it is to do well, and thousands of these first person, first effort land in slush piles every year.

There are editors who don't like first person, of course, but outside of fantasy and romance novels that tend to be multiple POV, most editors ask for no first person purely and simply because they're addressing this to new writers.

First person novels by unpublished writers generally just don't go over well with editors, though the first five novel I sold were all first person, and if I can get my health together, I should have three more first person novels published in the next two or three years.

As for English teachers, what they know about publishing could be put on a postcard. English teachers generally teach formal writing and formal grammar, which have very little to do with fiction writing.