Detroit Murders in 2008 Exceed Number U.S. Killed in Iraq

[Robert Toy]

Detroit gained the distinction of becoming the U.S. murder capital in 2008 with 336 murders AND surpassing the 314 Americans killed in Iraq

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7884362&page=1

scary when a U.S. city is more dangerous than a war-zone

[WriteKnight]

I suspect more than 336 people were killed in Iraq last year.

Oh. You're only counting US Soldiers...

I think Iraq is much more dangerous for people to be living in, than Detroit.

(An accurate comparison - would be to ask how many US military personell were killed in Detroit last year...)

[rugcat]

It's always been that way. I remember thinking the same thing when Beirut was in turmoil, back in the eighties.

When I was younger I lived on the South Side of Chicago, on Blackstone Ave, among other places. The streets were ruled then by the Blackstone Rangers (Who evolved into the Black P. Stone nation)

Once, in Marseilles (a tough city) I was warned by French acquaintances to be very careful walking around on the streets, as it was dangerous. They had no idea what dangerous meant.

We are a violent society.

[blacbird]

I think Iraq is much more dangerous for people to be living in, than Detroit.

You are technically correct, but Robert's point is well-taken, and true. There are some very scary places in many U.S. cities. Almost certainly the big majority of those 336 murders in Detroit took place in certain very bad enclaves, and those enclaves might well be as dangerous as Baghdad.

The good news is that the overall murder rate in the U.S. has, with some annual fluctuation, declined significantly in recent years.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873729.html

caw

[dclary]

President Obama's hometown of Chicago had more murders in Iraq than US soldiers were killed in 2008, too.

[WriteKnight]

More people were killed in airline accidents last year -

There are a lot of ways of parsing numbers -

Especially if you're taking a small sampling subset of the number killed in the entire "War Zone".

[Robert Toy]

More people were killed in airline accidents last year -

There are a lot of ways of parsing numbers -

Especially if you're taking a small sampling subset of the number killed in the entire "War Zone".
my bold

ain't stats the shits

For the first time since the dawn of the jet age, two consecutive years have passed without a single airline passenger death on a U.S. carrier.
No passengers died in crashes in 2007 and 2008, a period in which 1.5 billion people took scheduled airline flights.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-01-11-airlinesafety_N.htm

[Jcomp]

my bold

ain't stats the shits

For the first time since the dawn of the jet age, two consecutive years have passed without a single airline passenger death on a U.S. carrier.
No passengers died in crashes in 2007 and 2008, a period in which 1.5 billion people took scheduled airline flights.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-01-11-airlinesafety_N.htm

Of course, that's only the U.S. carriers. Outside of the U.S. considerably more than zero people died in plane crashes...

I don't know if I can concur that Detroit is more dangerous than Iraq.

[Robert Toy]

Of course, that's only the U.S. carriers. Outside of the U.S. considerably more than zero people died in plane crashes...

I don't know if I can concur that Detroit is more dangerous than Iraq.
ask me if I'm sorry that I stared the OP?

[blacbird]

Of course, that's only the U.S. carriers. Outside of the U.S. considerably more than zero people died in plane crashes...

Well, damn, J, you expecting us to worry about them other carriers? Like the French and such?

caw

[Gregg]

I'd still rather be in Detroit.

[MattW]

I'd still rather be in Detroit.

But Iraq has universal healthcare - it must be better!

[Fullback]

This thread should be considered trolling and closed. Over 9,000 civilians were killed and over 60,000 were wounded in Iraq last year.

[rugcat]

No one is claiming Baghdad is safer than Detroit -- only that it is more dangerous to be a resident of Detroit these days than it is to be an American soldier in Iraq. Which, statistically is true and rather ironic, that's all.

[beezle]

Nuke it from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[tiny]

Dead is only one statistic to the war wounded. Let's add in those coming home not whole and see if Detroit still comes out on top. Let's add in PTSD and TBI injuries also and see if Iraq is indeed safer for an American soldier than it is to be a resident of Detroit. Oh, and let's also add in all the suicides as a result of war wounds. I'm sure American soldiers in Iraq still hold the top spot when it comes to being in danger in this comparison.

[WriteKnight]

No one is claiming Baghdad is safer than Detroit -- only that it is more dangerous to be a resident of Detroit these days than it is to be an American soldier in Iraq. Which, statistically is true and rather ironic, that's all.

It's a false comparison. It is FAR safer to be US Soldier in Detroit, than it is to be in a US Soldier in Bagdad. It is also FAR safer to be a citizen of Detroit, than it is to be a citizen of Baghdad.

May as well compare ... apples to apples... or else you're just setting up windmills to be knocked down.

The only irony is in the comparison.

And I believe the quote - 'scary when a U.S. city is more dangerous than a war-zone ' - qualifies as someone claiming Bagdhad is safer than Detroit.

My work here is done.

[blacbird]

It's not a numbers game. Forget raw numbers. Comparing numbers in this way is like saying the L.A. Lakers are a better team than the L.A. Dodgers because they score more. The social situation in Detroit, or at least in parts of Detroit, ain't good. That can be said for virtually all big U.S. cities. A murder per day in any U.S. city should simply be considered unacceptable.

caw

[nighttimer]

Unless Mr. Toy is suggesting the United States should declare war on Detroit, occupy it and install a provisional government to our liking, I'm not following the point here.

There are real human beings, real tragedies and real suffering behind those coldly, indifferent numbers.

Numbers without context are merely numbers without meaning.

[dgiharris]

No one is claiming Baghdad is safer than Detroit -- only that it is more dangerous to be a resident of Detroit these days than it is to be an American soldier in Iraq. Which, statistically is true and rather ironic, that's all.

Yes, I agree with RC, we can try to play games with numbers, but the simple statistic is very powerful. I mean, we are talking facts here, a fact that more people were MURDERED in Detroit than all US troops killed in a modern conflict is a valid point and not some frivilous irrelevant strawman argument.

Yes, there is a little bit of apples and oranges going on, but just on its face, this statistic says alot.

Dead is only one statistic to the war wounded. Let's add in those coming home not whole and see if Detroit still comes out on top. Let's add in PTSD and TBI injuries also and see if Iraq is indeed safer for an American soldier than it is to be a resident of Detroit. Oh, and let's also add in all the suicides as a result of war wounds. I'm sure American soldiers in Iraq still hold the top spot when it comes to being in danger in this comparison.

Well, if we are going to start adding additional statistics, lets add all the collateral damage of the citizens of Detriot caught up in the cross fire of all these murders and criminal activity. You mentioned Post Traumatic Stress. I grew up with a Crack House down the street run by the local gang. Everyday going to school, I had to walk by people who would kill me just as soon as they would look at me. Sirens and gun shots at night were normal. Seeing someone beaten, shot, or killed over bullshit (you stepped on my sneakers, etc) was also a regular occurrence.

Then throw in the War on Drugs which is intimately tied up in inner city violence and all the people 'caught up' in this war and thrown in jail.

The pressures and dangers of inner city violence can be viewed as equivalent to a War Zone and I can make a strong argument that it is worse.

(this view does not mean that I don't pray for and value our troops)

Unless Mr. Toy is suggesting the United States should declare war on Detroit, occupy it and install a provisional government to our liking, I'm not following the point here.

There are real human beings, real tragedies and real suffering behind those coldly, indifferent numbers.

Numbers without context are merely numbers without meaning.

True, but I feel Rob's point or inference is valid. We just don't like to think about it. It is the 800 lb Gorilla in the room that we've grown so comfortable ignoring.

Again, this may be a little bit of apples and oranges but they are both 'fruit'. Its not like we're talking apples and meteors. IMHO.

You mention that these are real human beings and tragedies behind the numbers. I completely agree, in both the Iraq case and the Detriot case. They are both tragic, only it is the Iraq tragedy that has center stage while our own internal tragedies are so commonplace that we don't even think about them anymore which is IMHO a greater tragedy.

Mel...

[Dommo]

I agree with you dgi.

The statistic while not a direct comparison does put some context on the level of violence that is occurring in the massive Detroit projects(which might as well be a demilitarized zone). I've got family members who do work in the projects(one is a social worker, another is the manager of a local salvaging company, and two more are doctors), and it really is that bad in the area. Considering that probably 3/4 of all the murders/crime that happen in the city occur in there, I'd say that the comparison with Baghdad is actually more valid than many would care to admit.

Detroit is mismanaged and corrupt(look up Kwame Kilpatrick, and you'll see what I mean), that Detroit is probably one of the few US cities that actually would qualify in my books as being 3rd world. Try to put any spin on it you want, but if you looked at how many are injured through criminal action/gang violence and deaths, it's actually probably not that far off from what you'd see in a low intensity urban conflict.

[MarkEsq]

"Congratulations, soldier, your tour of duty is up and you're going home!"

"Sir, no sir!"

"What did you say, soldier?"

"I'm staying here in Iraq, sir."

"What the hell are you talking about, private?"

"I live in Detroit, sir."

"Oh, why didn't you say? Tour extended."

"Thank you, sir!"

[donroc]

Some used to compare the body count in Viet Nam to the number of dead bodies created annually by auto accidents in the USA.

[Robert Toy]

very much like a joke, when one has to explain an OP, it’s a bad one

and this dead puppy is starting to smell really bad

[tiny]

Well, if we are going to start adding additional statistics, lets add all the collateral damage of the citizens of Detriot caught up in the cross fire of all these murders and criminal activity. You mentioned Post Traumatic Stress. I grew up with a Crack House down the street run by the local gang. Everyday going to school, I had to walk by people who would kill me just as soon as they would look at me. Sirens and gun shots at night were normal. Seeing someone beaten, shot, or killed over bullshit (you stepped on my sneakers, etc) was also a regular occurrence.

Then throw in the War on Drugs which is intimately tied up in inner city violence and all the people 'caught up' in this war and thrown in jail.

The pressures and dangers of inner city violence can be viewed as equivalent to a War Zone and I can make a strong argument that it is worse.

(this view does not mean that I don't pray for and value our troops)



Head on down to the VA with me next week and then out to Oceanside. I'll bet you'll see more amputees than you've ever seen in any day in the city. IED attacks are causing a distressing number of them.

The comparison is a ridiculous one when it's but into the context of safety. I live with a combat medic who walked those streets in the desert. I assure you, he'll take Detroit any day of the week.

And if we're adding in collateral damage, then every man, woman, and child, no matter their country of origin, must be also added into the mix. I'd say Detroit probably pales in comparison.

[Jcomp]

The thing is, it is horrific for a U.S. city to have a murder every day, and Detroit is notorious for being the real world equivalent of Gotham City, but the initial comparison wasn't necessary or valid. It only served to basically make Detroit look relatively harmless upon closer inspection and some people in this thread are probably walking away from it thinking that American casualties in inner city gang warfare are even less important than they might have previously considered them to be.

I agree with Mel regarding this being an 800 lb gorilla, but the problem is (to just completely torture the living hell out of his analogy) it's only in the room with some people, while other people don't even live in the same house, and then when this thread brings up a 1600 lb gorilla that lives several streets down to compare it with, it only makes it seem more insignificant to many who already couldn't care less.

[Robert Toy]

my comment in the OP "scary when a U.S. city is more dangerous than a war-zone"

was a poor, not though-out dumb statement and never intended to be a comparison with a war zone – a thousand apologies







336 murders are still way too many for a U.S. city...that was the original intent of the OP

[robeiae]

I was planning to take a vacation in downtown Detroit with the wife and kids, this summer. Are you peeps saying it may not be the best location?

[cethklein]

I was planning to take a vacation in downtown Detroit with the wife and kids, this summer. Are you peeps saying it may not be the best location?

I don't think he's saying it's not a good vacation spot, just make sure to pack some Kevlar and an MP5 or two.

[rugcat]

336 murders are still way too many for a U.S. city...that was the original intent of the OPI don't often agree with Robert, but that's certainly the way I took the OP -- not that the violence in Baghdad is overstated, but that the comparison was a comment on how violent our own country can be.

[icerose]

Funny, I was reading an article about Detroit the other day. It was commenting on how you couldn't hardly buy a vehicle in the city of certain brands like Chrystler because they'd closed down all the dealers and that every single big chain grocery store had left, that there wasn't a single one left.

Almost seems time to evacutate the city, let a major disaster flatten it, and build from the ashes a new life for these people.

[dgiharris]

Head on down to the VA with me next week and then out to Oceanside. I'll bet you'll see more amputees than you've ever seen in any day in the city. IED attacks are causing a distressing number of them.

The comparison is a ridiculous one when it's but into the context of safety. I live with a combat medic who walked those streets in the desert. I assure you, he'll take Detroit any day of the week.

And if we're adding in collateral damage, then every man, woman, and child, no matter their country of origin, must be also added into the mix. I'd say Detroit probably pales in comparison.

O.k. I'll see your Iraq Veteran amputees (numbering in the thousands) and raise you by thousands of Detroit citizens who are incarcerated for the majority of their lives due to their environment. Then I'll raise you the anguish that Tens of Thousands have to go through dialy including but not limited to: physical abuse, sexual abuse, having their family broken up by CPS, mental abuse, drug addiction, alcoholism, no health care, etc. etc.

Having been in both the military and an urban shithole, if I had a choice between doing a tour in Iraq and living my life in the inner city of Detriot, I'd pick the tour in Iraq in a heatbeat.

Living in the inner city of Detriot DAILY is like spending your life in an iron cage, unable to move, unable to stretch out, relax, breath, sleep... It is a hell that destroys a little bit of your soul every day until you forget what it is like to even hope or dream. You become the walking dead.

Now, I will be the first to admit that ops in a combat zone is no picnic. I do not mean to come across as trivializing the horrors of war. War is awful.

I just feel that most of America has no clue what it is like living in the inner city. It does not feel like America, it feels more like some hotspot in Africa, where violence reigns supreme in a land with no god.

For instance, a lot of teens have unprotected sex in the inner city. Most people will ask, "Well aren't you afraid of getting AIDS?"

One of the most common replies are, "I'll be dead before I turn 21 anyways, so what's the point".

Just stop and think about that answer for a moment.

*sigh*

I'll stop there

Mel....

[ricetalks]

314 American soldiers killed out of a population of how many American soldiers in Iraq?

Compare that to Detriot. How many Americans in Detriot? 336 murders. That breaks down to how many American murdered PER thousand?

That's how you juudge those numbers. Detriot is still safer.

[Dommo]

Actually rice, if you look purely at the population of people that are living in the projects, and in the run down areas of Detroit(where the majority of the murders/crimes happen), then the number is actually somewhat comparable. Detroit only has like a quarter-half million people living in the more dangerous areas of town.

[Higgins]

Detroit gained the distinction of becoming the U.S. murder capital in 2008 with 336 murders AND surpassing the 314 Americans killed in Iraq

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7884362&page=1

scary when a U.S. city is more dangerous than a war-zone

It also suggests that a well-trained force of well-armed troops may be able to defend itself and that the numbers killed in Iraq might more logically include the thousands of Iraqis killed in Iraq.

[Fullback]

Robert Toy has commented on his initial analogy. I commend him and wish others had his courage.

[Robert Toy]

It also suggests that a well-trained force of well-armed troops may be able to defend itself and that the numbers killed in Iraq might more logically include the thousands of Iraqis killed in Iraq.
It’s also obvious some people enjoy picking fly shit from pepper, go figure

[ricetalks]

Actually rice, if you look purely at the population of people that are living in the projects, and in the run down areas of Detroit(where the majority of the murders/crimes happen), then the number is actually somewhat comparable. Detroit only has like a quarter-half million people living in the more dangerous areas of town.

Point possible. Maybe it is a more accurate comparision that I thought. That's dismal.

[Dommo]

That's honestly why those neighborhoods have such a horrible reputation. It's because relative to the population, the crime levels, and violence levels, are at a level that isn't really seen anywhere else in the USA. It's a kind of level that might be seen in a place like Colombia with the drug wars or soemthing.

[blacbird]

That's honestly why those neighborhoods have such a horrible reputation. It's because relative to the population, the crime levels, and violence levels, are at a level that isn't really seen anywhere else in the USA.

Regrettably, this is untrue. I could take you to neighborhoods in New Orleans, LA, Oakland, Newark, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Miami, St. Louis, Dallas, Houston, that are in no significant way different.

caw

[dgiharris]

That's honestly why those neighborhoods have such a horrible reputation. It's because relative to the population, the crime levels, and violence levels, are at a level that isn't really seen anywhere else in the USA. It's a kind of level that might be seen in a place like Colombia with the drug wars or soemthing.

Regrettably, this is untrue. I could take you to neighborhoods in New Orleans, LA, Oakland, Newark, Cleveland, Philadelphia, Miami, St. Louis, Dallas, Houston, that are in no significant way different.

No, I think what Dommo meant was that the majority of the US populace has no experience with these types of neighborhoods. Yes, there are little hell holes in every major city, but the majority of the city doesn't live in them, but rather, the hellholes are a subset of the city.... Not the other way around...

End result, the Majority of Americans do not see the horrors that go on in the inner city. Out of sight, out of mind.

Mel...

[nighttimer]

The inconvenient truth that Detroit officials would like to hide is they apparently under-reported the numbers of murders.

What's the murder capital of the nation? That depends on who does the counting.

Until this month, that dubious distinction for 2008 fell on Baltimore. But then, Detroit's police department (http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=7878171) conceded the city had 339 murders in 2008 rather than 306 -- making Detroit the deadliest city in the nation (http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6561163&page=1).
The disclosure followed newspaper reports (http://www.detnews.com/article/20090605/METRO/906050433/Detroit-s-homicide-rate-worst-in-nation?imw=Y) that the city had consistently underreported its murder rate, leading to accusations that Detroit (http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6758410), along with other cities, was gaming the system to make the city appear safer.

"Figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure," former North Carolina Attorney General Rufus Edmisten, who used to announce that state's crime statistics, told ABC with a chuckle.

Was Detroit gaming the numbers to avoid an unpopular title? It's a common practice, Edmisten said.

"You have a lot of numbers manipulated, depending on what you want to achieve," he said. "If you need more help you say how bad things are. On the other hand no public official wants to say we're No. 1 in the number of murders."

link (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7884362&page=1)

[Dommo]

That's pretty disturbing nighttimer. It just goes to show how corrupt that city is.

[dgiharris]

The inconvenient truth that Detroit officials would like to hide is they apparently under-reported the numbers of murders.

...The disclosure followed newspaper reports (http://www.detnews.com/article/20090605/METRO/906050433/Detroit-s-homicide-rate-worst-in-nation?imw=Y) that the city had consistently underreported its murder rate, leading to accusations that Detroit (http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6758410), along with other cities, was gaming the system to make the city appear safer.

"Figures don't lie, but liars sure do figure," ...

That's pretty disturbing nighttimer. It just goes to show how corrupt that city is.

One of the by-products of any giant bureaucracy consisting of guidelines and policies driven by blind blanket directives that link to statistics is that it is inevitable that those within the bureaucracy will try to game the system and fudge numbers.

ALL government agencies do this. In fact, it is inevitable. This is the problem with marrying statistics to blanket policies and directives with no regards to the context. When the higher powers compare different orgs, they do so by comparing statistics without looking at context, like comparing apples and oranges or rather forcing apples to compete with oranges while hammering square pegs through round holes...

*Sigh* (I tried to explain why its so complicated but had to give up. This topic could EASILY be its own thread. In fact, I may start it sometime)

In closing, all agencies of government, regardless of size and duty, fudge their numbers. They have to. It is inevitiable and there is absolutely no way around it. They are locked into a Prisoner's Dilema scenario that is multiplied by a thousand. The system actually forces this type of number fudging.

Mel...

[nighttimer]

You're right dgiharris, and I'm not trying to oversimplify the issue.

However, knowing that city officials in Detroit would prefer to "cook the books" and play games with numbers is disgusting knowing that they are also playing games with lives.

If your doctor tells you to lose 20 pounds soon or you're facing some serious medical issues, can you stop at 10 pounds and then celebrate by pounding down an entire chocolate cake but rationalize because you're washing it down with 2% milk you're eating healthy?

Face the problem. Address the root causes. Take the proper corrective and preventive steps.

Sticking your head in the sand only means you've made it easier to get kicked in the butt.

[dgiharris]

You're right dgiharris, and I'm not trying to oversimplify the issue.

However, knowing that city officials in Detroit would prefer to "cook the books" and play games with numbers is disgusting knowing that they are also playing games with lives.

If your doctor tells you to lose 20 pounds soon or you're facing some serious medical issues, can you stop at 10 pounds and then celebrate by pounding down an entire chocolate cake but rationalize because you're washing it down with 2% milk you're eating healthy?

Face the problem. Address the root causes. Take the proper corrective and preventive steps.

Sticking your head in the sand only means you've made it easier to get kicked in the butt.

I agree with you and at the individual level, you are absolutely right. But what happens if EVERYONE solves the problem by sticking their heads in the sands.

That is the problem, it is systemic. If you go against the system and actually are honest in how you report your statistics, then your statistics look that much worse as compared to everyone else who fudges theres.

Mel...

But imagine that as a doctor you are judged not on your ab

[nighttimer]

Detroit -- Police have named Jamel Cameron Turner as a person of interest in the shooting of seven teens at a westside bus stop Tuesday afternoon.
Turner turned himself in at 3 p.m. today at Detroit Police Department's northwest precinct at 11450 Warwick St.


According to witnesses, two men, either wearing masks or using their shirts to cover their faces, shot at the victims, Detroit Police 2nd Deputy Chief Rod Liggons said.


Police are searching for two other suspects believed to be involved in the shooting. Another person who was not directly involved in the shooting was arrested earlier today and provided police with information, Chief James Barren said.


Five of the seven victims, ages 14-17, are students at Cody Ninth Grade Academy, close to where the shootings occurred near Warren Avenue and Southfield Road. All are expected to recover, police said.


A motive was not immediately known, police said today.


Police investigators and Detroit Public Schools officers have been working to track down the two men.

http://cmsimg.detnews.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=C3&Date=20090701&Category=METRO&ArtNo=907010381&Ref=AR

Nobody was killed, but it sure wasn't from a lack of trying.

If Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson want to be of help, stop being camera whores hanging around the corpse of Michael Jackson and hold a protest against mindless acts of Black-on-Black street crime in Detroit. Demand an end to kids killing kids over nothing.

Yeah. I'm not going to hold my breath either. :rant:

[Robert Toy]

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l253/RT_2006/jackson001.jpg

Dr. Wesley McClure, President of Lane College

http://www.lanecollege.edu/lanepages.asp?V_menu=01&p_num=03