Swearing in a YA novel?

[Honey Nut Loop]

This post is exactly what it says in the title. To what extent do you think swearing is acceptable in YA novels? I know i've read books with swear words in them for YA's but i wanted other people's opinions. Lease could you tell me what sort of words you would accept,if any, if that is possible? It would be much appreciated.

thank you very much

[aspiringwriter]

I have read a few YA novels and to my knowledge I didn't see much if any at all!!! But it all depends on your story and what you are trying to get across.

~Bill~

[Duncan J Macdonald]

Go on down to the local teen/pre-teen hangout(s) and, as you walk by, listen in to some of their conversations.
What to some of us would be swearing (or worse) is to them a normal mode of communication.
Don't know if that would fly in a YA book, but it would lend a certain authenticity.

[PattiTheWicked]

This post is exactly what it says in the title. To what extent do you think swearing is acceptable in YA novels? I know i've read books with swear words in them for YA's but i wanted other people's opinions. Lease could you tell me what sort of words you would accept,if any, if that is possible? It would be much appreciated.

thank you very much

I think it depends on your story. If you're writing a story about kids who swear, then they would probably swear. But not all kids do.

I just finished a YA novel geared towards 10 - 14 year olds. There's no swearing in it. It's not because I'm a prude or a goody-two-shoes, but because the kids in it are kids who just don't happen to swear (although one of them refers to things as being "craptastic" on occasion).

For me, the bottom line is, what's your target market? Kids who buy their own books, or kids whose moms buy the books for them?

[katiemac]

Go for it. I just finished reading the YA novel about fifteen year olds, so they're in high school level. In all honesty, it doesn't make sense for high school kids NOT to swear. Even the "good kids" swear nowadays, with of the proper exceptions, of course. You hear it all the time from your friends, your classmates - heck, even some teachers. And kids appreciate that - the teachers who realize their students are mature enough so they don't have to censor themselves. I think being the author of the novel they're reading works that way, too. If it "feels" like your characters should swear, please don't hold back. (I wouldn't use it often, though, only when necessary, and even then the worst I'd use was "sh*t.") There's nothing more unrealistic to a kid's ear than to hear, "Gosh darn it, Maggie, we missed the bus!"

[maestrowork]

There's the realistic part of it: yeah, YA swear.

Then there's the marketability part of it: would publisher buy a ms. with swear words?

[Christine N.]

Sometimes I take the cheater's way out. I write "So-and so cursed under her breath." Lots of writers for the younger YA audience do. Older books I think you can get away with more.

[Aconite]

Then there's the marketability part of it: would publisher buy a ms. with swear words?

I think much depends on which words we're talking about. "Damn" is barely recognized as a swear word these days. "Motherf*cker," on the other hand, still gets attention.

[katiemac]

Then there's the marketability part of it: would publisher buy a ms. with swear words?

Yes. To an extent, like Aconite said. I doubt any children's press would print "mother****er." But like I said, the book I just finished reading was YA and published by Delacorte Press (subdivision of Random House). Not only did the girls swear ("sh*t" approximately 4 or 5 times), one of them lost her virginity, too - at 15, to a 19-year-old boy. So... take with that what you will.

The book's a New York Times bestseller, has two or three sequels out or in the works, and is a highly critically-acclaimed movie this summer. (Can you guess what book it is yet?)

Anyway, I don't think there's any publisher who's going to throw you out for a couple of swears. Like I said before, the teens reading these novels appreciate the exploration of real-life themes. Plus, they're smart. If you try to sugar-coat something, they'll pick up on it fast.

[maestrowork]

The book's a New York Times bestseller, has two or three sequels out or in the works, and is a highly critically-acclaimed movie this summer. (Can you guess what book it is yet?)

Oh no, don't tell me it's that Ya Ya Sisterhood of the Traveling Panties!

[RoseWrites]

I agree, I think if the swear words are "damn" or "crap" along those lines, I would find that acceptable, realistic. However, coming from a mom's point of view (and I know this might be a bit unrealistic because kids do swear) but I might not be willing to get a book from my son/daughter if there are tons of swear words or even the harsher sounding swear words. You may be able to get your point across without having to use that, or at least using it excessively.

[Aconite]

Oh no, don't tell me it's that Ya Ya Sisterhood of the Traveling Panties!
*sigh* You are so not with it. It's obviously Pat the Bunny.

[PattiTheWicked]

*sigh* You are so not with it. It's obviously Pat the Bunny.

Heh. From the trailers, it looks like the bunny's getting more than just a pat :)

[Honey Nut Loop]

Hi everyone and thanks for your contributions. The story is written from the first person perspective of a 15 or so year old girl. There isn't huge amounts of swearing but just occasionaly (and Freya(the character) doesn't give me much say in the matter) a swear word crops up though i try to keep it minimal. Crap has come up a couple of times but i don't see that as severe. What i'm more worried about is Freya referrring to a fellow student as bitchy. Is that too serious? I can try to edit it out but i think you all know where i'm comin gfrom when i say it was Freya, not me, who dug the hole.

I know this is how teenagers can talk as well as i've only just left school wher ei was exposed to them 6 days a week.

[RoseWrites]

I don't think stating someone is "bitchy" is not as bad as outright calling someone a "*****."

[Saanen]

I think *****/bitchy is quite mild, and I read a lot of YA. Damn, hell, ***, and bastard (this list is fun to write!) are also not too bad. Anything harsher--well, you might want to substitute a milder word until you sell it, and then find out if the publisher has a policy on swear words in YA.

I've seen some rather cunning substitutes for bad words in YA novels ("earhole" comes to mind), but I find them kind of awkward and unrealistic.

Edit: Apparently the forums don't agree with me that a*s and b*tch are mild. :)

[CaptMorgan]

In my YA novel, there is a moderate amount of swearing. I cut the list of words off right before it reaches the grand finale of cuss words, but I certainly think cursing adds a certain validity to my work. My main character is an eighteen-year-old college student, and personally, being a twenty-year-old college student, I have yet to find one peer that doesn't curse occasionally. I tried writing without my characters cussing, but it just doesn't ring true. If one of my characters is angry, how silly would it sound to have him say, "I'm really, really mad!" I find this is particularly the case with male characters.

[Jamesaritchie]

Check with the publisher. Swearing is still not tolerated by many publishers, and even when it is, there's still a tight rope to walk. You really have to tread carefully until you know the ropes.

Whether or not kids really swear has almost nothing to do with the reality of marketing. Or with school libraries, or parentalal rection to such books.

Best advice is this: If you want to write YA, then read a bunch of them, else you won't have a clue what to put in or leave out. Or even how they should be written otherwise. And make sure they are YA. Not all books with teen characters are YA.

[Mistook]

My suspicion is that most YA novels are acually read by the 9-11 year old crowd. Most books aimed at adults from 20 to 40 are read by 13 to 19 year olds, etc etc.

So there's probably a good reason not to involve too much swearing in a YA novel.

[KimJo]

When I wrote the first draft of my YA novel, the MC/narrator swore several times. When I revised, all of the actual words disappeared and were replaced by phrases like "I swore" or "He muttered something under his breath." I was more comfortable with it and the character seemed happier too.

[James D. Macdonald]

Read several current books from the publishers you're interested in. How is swearing handled in their other novels?

[Saanen]

My suspicion is that most YA novels are acually read by the 9-11 year old crowd. Most books aimed at adults from 20 to 40 are read by 13 to 19 year olds, etc etc.

So there's probably a good reason not to involve too much swearing in a YA novel.

Actually, you're exactly right. Kids like to read books with characters a few years older than they are. And you're also right that it's a very good reason to go easy on the swearing. Kids read books with older characters in part because they want to know how older kids act; the last thing we need to do is to encourage twelve-year-olds to cuss more. :)

So a book with a fifteen-year-old main character will be read MAINLY by under-fifteens; a book with an eighteen-year-old character will be read by fifteen/sixteen-year-olds. Even those books aimed at high school kids mostly show characters who actually act much older than their purported ages--and for the most part, I'd say high school books are read by middle school kids, because high schoolers are reading adult thrillers.

No, I don't really have authority to back my statements up, but I have seen my students consistently reading books featuring older kids and I remember doing the same when I was a kid.

[Garpy]

I'm writing a scifi YA series. Luckily the future slang used by the characters allows for some near miss words. So one particularly foul-mouthed character will occasionally say 'I'm fregging angry', or 'oh fregg that.' Obviously doesn't take a genius to work out what 'freg' replaces, but its a way of avoiding the F word.

You might want to take a look at the Wikipedia for youth slang and curses. Them kids can be very imaginative with the abuse they hurl at each other.

[Christine N.]

I was thinking that this has to do with genre too. Like Garpy said, if the book is not set in modern America, the characters would talk differently.
My fav. YA author, Tamora Pierce, writes for older kids, and I don't remember ever reading a swear word in any of her books. Again, they take place in fictional places. Maybe a Damn or too, but it obviously didn't jump out at me or I would have remembered it.

[Roger J Carlson]

The question is: Is it necessary?

Look at movies. In the theatre version of Beverly Hills Cop, Eddie Murphy cusses a blue streak. In the network version, the language is toned down considerably without detracting from the story. On the other hand, the network version of Blazing Saddles eviscerates the film. They even cut out the "N" word, which is the whole point of the film!

In Blazing Saddles, the cussing is necessary. In Beverly Hills Cop it is not (at least to the extent that the theatre version had).

I am personally uncomfortable with cussing. One of the reasons I chose YA fiction is because it gives me permission NOT to cuss. While it is more acceptable today to have cussing in YA fiction, it is also permissible not to. I don't cuss myself, and I find that my characters have little reason to either.

[sassandgroove]

Ask Judy Blume. I read a thing on her site about whether or not to leave f#%& in one of her YA books. It comes down to whether or not you want to fight for it. She knew that character would use that word, to take it out was to lie. But if you use those words, your work may not be as widelydistributed and will encounter resistence. So, do you want to fight for it?

[sassandgroove]

My I'm chatty today. Another thing to consider is the less often you use a cuss word, the more power it will have when you do. I know because I rarely cuss. When I was in college, most of my freinds were guys. They saw me as sweet and innocent. One day I was angry about something and swore. Man, they went from "oh it's okay sweetie" (patting me on head and ignoring me) to paying attention to what I had to say.

[Jamesaritchie]

Ask Judy Blume. I read a thing on her site about whether or not to leave f#%& in one of her YA books. It comes down to whether or not you want to fight for it. She knew that character would use that word, to take it out was to lie. But if you use those words, your work may not be as widelydistributed and will encounter resistence. So, do you want to fight for it?

And ubnless you've made as much money for the publisher as Judy Blume, you won't even get a chance to fight for it.

[Honey Nut Loop]

thanks everyone for your opinions though i'm still in two minds. For now i'm jsut going to keep the swearing to a minimum and be as imaginative as i can in making up my own phrases(or just using my friends favourite terms lol, won't they be surprised if it ever gets published). I've just finished reading Darren Shan's new teen novel 'Lord Loss' and at one point the character says 'Stick it up your crack you warped son of a mutant b*tch'. He got the book published though it isn't his first novel which i suppose gives him more leeway. What do you guys think?

[Roger J Carlson]

thanks everyone for your opinions though i'm still in two minds. For now i'm jsut going to keep the swearing to a minimum and be as imaginative as i can in making up my own phrases(or just using my friends favourite terms lol, won't they be surprised if it ever gets published). I've just finished reading Darren Shan's new teen novel 'Lord Loss' and at one point the character says 'Stick it up your crack you warped son of a mutant b*tch'. He got the book published though it isn't his first novel which i suppose gives him more leeway. What do you guys think?As I said before, I think it is MUCH more acceptable to have profanity in YA fiction than ever before. I've been tracking the YA novels that have been sold in the last few months. Here are some samples (Publisher's Marketplace):

8 June, 2005
Children's: Middle grade
Karen Day's TALL TALES, in which a twelve-year-old girl finds hope in her first true friendship, even as her alcoholic father terrorizes her family.

27 May, 2005
Children's: Young Adult
Laura Wiess's VICTIM SOUL, a thriller about the three days of horror that await a teenage girl when her convicted pedophile father is released on parole and comes home.

5 May, 2005
Children's: Young Adult
Suzanne Phillips' debut novel CHLOE DOE, in which a 17-year-old girl making a living as a prostitute recounts the tragedies in her past that led her to life on the streets and then to a treatment program, where a battle of wits between her and a psychiatrist turns into a life changing experience.

8 March, 2005
Children's
Betty Monthei's LOOKING FOR NORMAL, about a girl whose is changed forever when her father kills her mother, and she and her younger brother must rebuild their lives and begin to look for normal.

5 January, 2005
Children's: Young Adult
Two-time Lamba Award finalist Alex Sanchez's GETTING IT, about a straight boy who, with the help of his ostracized gay classmate, figures out that growing up is about much more than getting "it."

Now, none of these descriptions mention language, but given the "adult" nature of the topics, I'd be very surprised it profanity doesn't play a large role in these books. The borders that constitute "acceptable" topics for teens are shifting and that includes language.