The word f*ck--a sign of weakness?

[The Lonely One]

I've used that four-lettered beasty before. Heck I still use it. In fiction.

But, aside from the idea of "showing character," is the word @#$% (can I say it? Okay I'm going to say it. Watch out--) fuck a sign of weakness in writing? Is it ever REALLY needed?

Even for character? Aren't there other clever ways to show character?

I notice myself using it to cover up my own insecurities in weak sentences. I wrote this the other day in CH 3 of my WIP:

The world was my fucking gazelle.

take out the curse and, I came to realize, not only is the SENTENCE lame, but the paragraph leading there is also pretty much a dead-end, cheesy idea.

I'll forgo talking about how I seem to have lost access to my subconscious in this story, rendering it lame (that's something I'll have to work out alone).

But I think I'm going to have to use that search and destroy, er, replace function for this bad mother (shut yo mouth).

[scarletpeaches]

Fuck is no worse than 'dog', 'cat', 'umbrella', 'stairs' or 'coffee'.

If your character would say it, you write it.

I will never understand this aversion to swear words. They're part of the language, so use 'em at will.

[john barnes on toast]

Profanities are as a valid a word type as any other.

Used judiciously they can enrich a text, either for dramatic/comic effect or authenticity. I would never have an absolute rule for their use.

But it's all about context. If it's there for shock value or a simple attempt at verisimilitude then it's pointless and often gratuitous.

[mscelina]

Cursing, like sex, can easily become gratuitous in writing. I don't have a problem with cursing; I'm pretty darn good at it myself as several people around here can attest. however, when I'm editing I tell my writers that a good curse word should be used for emphasis of an extreme mood or situation and not as a writer's favorite adjective.

Or verb.

[The Lonely One]

Fuck is no worse than 'dog', 'cat', 'umbrella', 'stairs' or 'coffee'.

If your character would say it, you write it.

I will never understand this aversion to swear words. They're part of the language, so use 'em at will.

I'm not necessarily meaning this in a prudish way (check my response in the dolphin sex thread), but I wonder if there are better words to do the job in a variety of scenarios. Sometimes it just seems like filler to "man up" the writing. I'm speaking of my own writing, of course.

Cursing has no shock factor these days, anyways, so I wouldn't be worried about that.

Maybe I'm just projecting my own worries about my WIP. I feel like I need one of you to sit me down on a couch and say, "what do you think about that."

[Kurtz]

Efficient and correct use of curse words can, like all language, illuminate the darker recesses of character. Imagine swear words like spices, the right one can bring out the natural flavour of the rest of the meal, the wrong one can make it taste bad. Too much is overpowering, too little is boring.

I think the word cunt doesn't get enough airplay.

[The Lonely One]

Can someone give me a sentence where they felt cursing was absolutely necessary? I would like to dissect such a sentence to get at the scratch I'm itching.

[Steve Rotramel]

It's definitely a sign of something.


When asking if it's a sign of weakness, are you talking about character quotes or writer quips?

Gotta pretty much agree with jbot. Context!

[scarletpeaches]

I use it to express anger or lust.

Any extreme emotion, really.

[KTC]

I've used that four-lettered beasty before. Heck I still use it. In fiction.

But, aside from the idea of "showing character," is the word @#$% (can I say it? Okay I'm going to say it. Watch out--) fuck a sign of weakness in writing? Is it ever REALLY needed?

Even for character? Aren't there other clever ways to show character?

I notice myself using it to cover up my own insecurities in weak sentences. I wrote this the other day in CH 3 of my WIP:



take out the curse and, I came to realize, not only is the SENTENCE lame, but the paragraph leading there is also pretty much a dead-end, cheesy idea.

I'll forgo talking about how I seem to have lost access to my subconscious in this story, rendering it lame (that's something I'll have to work out alone).

But I think I'm going to have to use that search and destroy, er, replace function for this bad mother (shut yo mouth).

There may be more clever ways to say something that means FUCK, but there are not more clever characters who wouldn't say FUCK. Use it if your character would. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A GOOD FUCK USAGE. Anybody who would tell you otherwise is WRONG.

[The Lonely One]

Efficient and correct use of curse words can, like all language, illuminate the darker recesses of character. Imagine swear words like spices, the right one can bring out the natural flavour of the rest of the meal, the wrong one can make it taste bad. Too much is overpowering, too little is boring.

I think the word cunt doesn't get enough airplay.

I hang around some guys I work with that say it sometimes (not AT work). I let it slip once, and now my wife says it.

That's called foot-in-mouth. :)

[Acoustic]

I don't mind reading that word, but I don't think it should sneak in and pretend to be an adjective if there's a better word out there. What does fucking mean in the gazelle sentence? You know?

Yet I definitely don't think it's a weakness!
It can be a useful characterization tool even though there are lots of other ways to show character. Sometimes I get a character and it's just natural that the person says the word. It's in their character DNA.

I shiver at the thought of not being able to use any word - no matter how vulgar or informal just because I'm afraid to look any certain way.

[Clair Dickson]

Some people speak and think that way. (Hi!) If you're writing a character who does so, then how can that be a sign of weakness? Is it any different than writing a character who says ain't or some other sort of speech pattern? That's how people are.

Though, I tend to think that only first person or very close third person narrative would include the word fuck-- or most other vulgarities-- outside of dialogue. Though, I suppose anything is possible.

Profanity alone will not show character. It's how and when profanity is used that shows character. It's different when I swear (which is pretty much all the time, when I'm not in Teacher-mode) and when my husband swears (because he says the word 'crap' as if he'll get spanked for saying it. And he in his 30s.) So, once the character is established if we come to the end of a scene and the character says "Oh, fuck." If I'm the character, then it's probably nothing. Could even be humorous. But if my husband was the character in the scene, then you KNOW something's incredibly horribly wrong. Part of a character.

Though I tend to think that division between what is "acceptable" language and what is not is really a way to segregate people-- usually "polite" society from impolite. They are only words. But that's a separate debate. =)

Don't worry about the profanity. Worry about creating characters. The characters you create will determine what, when, and how profanity is used. IMNHO.

[Rushie]

My rule for fiction is the same as my rule for real life, which is what I taught my children. Very bad language should be reserved for very bad situations. My kids were taught not to use the F bomb for anything but a life threatening emergency. But in a life threatening emergency, the F word is acceptable - mandatory even, if that's what it takes to get people's attention.

In fiction then, the same; use it rarely, when the gravity of the situation warrants it.

[KTC]

Can someone give me a sentence where they felt cursing was absolutely necessary? I would like to dissect such a sentence to get at the scratch I'm itching.

From one of my WIPS---

“Just as soon as you fuck right the fuck off, you rotten bastard.”

[willietheshakes]

Can someone give me a sentence where they felt cursing was absolutely necessary? I would like to dissect such a sentence to get at the scratch I'm itching.

Sure, but it's not mine. It's from a Springsteen song, and it engendered a LOT of debate on the NG when it came out. Some felt the use of fuck was gratuitous; I maintain it was the only appropriate word in that context.

Hmm... context... how much to quote? Eh, fuck it -- I'll quote the whole song. The fuck is in the last verse, for the attention-span-challenged:

[SPMiller]

Some people object to and are genuinely offended by profanity. That's why it's profane. So, you can't expect it to sit well with every single one of your readers. Some of them might form negative opinions about characters who swear, and that's their right.

I think the word cunt doesn't get enough airplay.So true. Perhaps the most powerful "profane" word for US readers.

I often make a point of using words such as fuck and cunt with their surface meanings: copulation and female sex organ. It's great fun.

[willietheshakes]

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A GOOD FUCK USAGE. Anybody who would tell you otherwise is WRONG.

Fixed that for ya, KTC.

[The Lonely One]

Thanks, willie. Put me up against Bruce Springsteen. :)

*throws in towel.

[KTC]

Fixed that for ya, KTC.


See, I slipped USAGE in there so I wouldn't be accused of going off topic. I originally went without the word USAGE.

[Kurtz]

Can someone give me a sentence where they felt cursing was absolutely necessary? I would like to dissect such a sentence to get at the scratch I'm itching.
Ulysses is THE book for this. It has a ridiculous amount of profanity and obscene stuff in it, so much so that it was banned for a long time even in western europe. I think that the Australians only legalised it in the 40's. A lot of people go on about it being pretentious, but pretentious means 'less smart than you think you are'. Joyce is exactly as smart as he thought he was, VERY.

Heres an extract from a brilliant essay I read:

http://www.themodernword.com/beckett/cleardot.GIFSwearing for swearing's sake is not part of Joyce's aesthetic, "legitimate" or otherwise: anyone who appreciates Joyce's economy of language senses this instinctively, but there are any number of examples of "bad word" usage clearly not presented to win huzzahs from the sweaty-palmed reader. There is a pair of examples, in fact, which both ably demonstrate a similar scheme of swearing and represent climactic moments in the thematic struggle with illicit language. Dan Michel knowingly informs us that those who swear by God and His saints are "worse than the Jews" (Morris 64), who are forever to blame for running in those iron nails. This is one of the greatest of the dark ironies of the Citizen: "By Jesus, says he, I'll brain that bloody jewman for using the holy name. By Jesus, I'll crucify him so I will" (U 445). The twin moment of such dangerous but inherently ludicrous überverfluchen comes with the anticipated Stephen-Bloom intersection. If the Citizen is the defender of the faith, Private Carr is the loyal servant of the other of Stephen's "two masters", "[t]he imperial British state" (U 24): PRIVATE CARR: (Tugging at his belt) I'll wring the neck of any bugger says a word against my fucking king. (U 693)
And again, with more urgency:
PRIVATE CARR: (Loosening his belt, shouts) I'll wring the neck of any fucking bastard says a word against my bleeding fucking king. (U 694)

[CaroGirl]

Any word loses punch when overused. Fuck is no exception. An author I absolutely adore fell in love with the word "gnarly" during the writing of one particular novel. The word is sufficiently unusual to have made it stick out like a sore thumb (forgive the cliche) on second and third (and so on) use. Fuck, however, is not unusual for a large portion of the population, thus its use can be quite ubiquitous, given the right circumstances, without setting off alarm bells in most readers.

All words are good. Just use them well and wisely.

[The Grump]

Profanity. To me, which character uses it and in what contexts is the point you consider when to put profanity into your writing, only if appropriate and it contributes to the writing.

Actually, I think wondering about using profanity is a middle class bias hung up on propriety. If you got a editor/publisher who doesn't like it, you can always delete it. You can personally disapprove of profanity, but if you have a reprobate as a character, profanity in dialog might be appropriate. Or, an teen who wants to shock. Or, ....????

Then, there's me and my mouth.

[Queen of Swords]

Can someone give me a sentence where they felt cursing was absolutely necessary?

From Kill Bill: "My name is Buck, and I'm here to fuck."

I don't think any other word would have worked as well in that context.

[Aggy B.]

I hope it's not a sign of weakness. My characters curse all the damn time. I understand the idea of the impact of words. But if a character would curse nonstop then that's the way you should write it. And there are certainly people who curse to the point where it is mind-numbing. I went to college with more than a few. :)

And the nerdy part of me would like to point out that "fuck" is not profanity. It is obscenity. ("Jesus" is profanity. And "shit" is vulgarity.)

[Medievalist]

Cursing has no shock factor these days, anyways, so I wouldn't be worried about that.

Yes it does, or we wouldn't get a flood of complaints from AW members every time someone uses a "forbidden" word.

[Lisa Cox]

I'm short on time and haven't read the other replies, so I apologise in advance if I'm repeating what everyone else said.

I swear all the time. My sentences are fuck this and fuck that -- and worse. If someone was to ever write a book about me (ha!), they'd better put in the swearing, because it's a defining character trait of mine.

If your character is the kind to swear, let him swear. Don't cheat your character. It's not a sign of weak writing at all. It's part of our culture and keeping your prose/dialogue devoid of swearing (if it's appropriate to the genre, character, etc) is a lie. IMO.

[Lifelongdagger]

As some have said. If the character would say it, and the narrative is to be real, then some words are pretty much mandatory. My novel is narrated by a lad from East London, and if he didn't swear like he does, it just wouldn't be the same. Here's a little excerpt where he's just put his fist through a window.


'Blood and glass all over the fuckin' place. Becky's screamin' and Mum's runnin'. And I'm lookin' at how the top of me hand's gashed right open and how the bits of glass stickin' in it look so fuckin' beautiful, like they've been stuck there me whole fuckin' life and I've only just noticed.'

Must say, though, I was pretty reticent in going the whole way with the swearing bit. In the end, couldn't avoid it.

Good discussion.

Warmest regards,

Ian

[thornhill]

I use it a lot but that's my style, so it's appropriate, I believe. I recently de-fucked some passages that I felt went a little overboard. I just did a count - I use it 211 times out of 55k words.

[Lisa Cox]

And the nerdy part of me would like to point out that "fuck" is not profanity. It is obscenity. ("Jesus" is profanity. And "shit" is vulgarity.)

Just to be annoying -- my dictionary and dictionary.com both define 'profanity' as 'obscenity'. :-D I think it's probably personal opinion for the most part.

(...having now read the other posts and discovered that, yes, I did just repeat everyone else's opinion. :p)

[scarletpeaches]

148,501-word erotica novel: 'fuck' and its variants fucking, fucker, fucked = used 275 times.

[Lifelongdagger]

Funny. I did that the other day. Just over a thousand 'fuck' variations in 56,000 words. Not to mention all the other niceties. Only when I wrote this book did I realise how foul my mouth was. 'Twas an education indeed.

[scarletpeaches]

And as I'm on a grand fuck-count...

Same for my current WIP: all variants thereof in a 94,623-word (thus far) erotic urban fantasy novel: 181 times.

[spamwarrior]

Hmmm.

I feel that the word itself can be overused. And when the character is saying it in every sentence, it feels that the word is being used just so it can be used... not to add anything to the story.

[Sarashay]

If you're using 'fuck' just to show how darn edgy you are, then, yes, I'd see it as a sign of weakness.

My novel has a lot of fuckage because it's from the POV of a twentysomething artsy chick who tends to use the word in her mental monologue. It's just the way it came out, and I see no need to change it. Anybody who is going to be upset by it is probably not going to make it very far into the novel anyway and will definitely run screaming by the end of Chapter Five.

[BigWords]

It used to be accepted that a single profanity would sufficiently shock the reader, though those days have long since passed. I like using strings of swear words in sentences, then try to completely shock the reader with something that is not only completely and utterly unnaceptable, but also is a pertinent and topical thought nobody else has the stones to say.

For example, if the above paragraph was peppered with swear words, then the simple act of using 'fuck' in this paragraph would hold no weight whatsoever. There would be no shock value, and no reason for people to sit up and pay attention. This is bad. There needs to be a reason to continue reading.

So, for the third paragraph, I'll throw in a comment that absolutely, defiantly states my intention of making people pay attention. I consider these methods a challenge, so here goes: That Carradine bloke, huh? Bloody brilliant way to get remembered forever. The guy is a shoe-in to win the Darwin award. Last thing he'll ever win though...

And everyone lurches, disbelieving the sentences they have just read, and I didn't even need to swear. It's all in the handling. :D

[Admiral Snuggles]

In this non-fiction article in Forbes a guy used the turn-of-phrase "mind-fuck". It totally fit and brought an interesting attitude to his narrative.

But I write fiction so... profanity can be awesome for character development. But it's not as simple as being objective. Some characters cuss like it'll keep their fingers from being cut off, others cuss only after their fingers are cut off. Some characters will look down at other characters who cuss innapropriately; some experience loathing from cussing innapropriately. Some cuss like it's a game. Some don't know what cuss words mean, they might even need to shyly ask some other character what a word means. Profanity (or vulgarity) can be a useful dynamic to a story.

However, I can't think of a third-person narrative situation where profanity would work well. But that, again, depends on your intended audience. Ask yourself: will this distract the reader from the story?

Lastly, it is hard for profane language to survive in literary fiction because profanity is an idiomatic and constantly changing part of our language. Few other things will make your writing age faster.

[Lifelongdagger]

Half way through reading 'Naked Lunch' by William Burroughs.

Now there's an interesting read. Written in the late fifties, must have caused quite a stir . . .

[Parametric]

Funny. I did that the other day. Just over a thousand 'fuck' variations in 56,000 words. Not to mention all the other niceties. Only when I wrote this book did I realise how foul my mouth was. 'Twas an education indeed.

One in every 56 words is a variation on "fuck"?

That's impressive. :ROFL:

[seun]

Oh dear. Another thread debating the value of swearing. We're all adults and what's more, we're all writers. We use words and hopefully we own those words, too. If our characters swear (or drink or smoke or wank or do drugs or anything potentially offensive), then that's what they do. If they're racist or wife beaters or child molesters, then that's what they are.

I repeat, we're all adults. AND WE'RE FUCKING WRITERS. As long we're serving our story, then what in the name of shit is wrong with swearing?

[Phaeal]

LOL. One of my betas used "fuck" in every other sentence of his WIP. But when I used it ONCE in my WIP, he almost fainted and knew that character was on the verge of a breakdown. Behold, the power of the word revived by sparing use.

[CaroGirl]

My edgy YA novel is around 65,000 wds and has 24 f-bombs. My MG novel, funnily enough, has none. I guess I figured that might prohibit publication in my chosen genre.

[Aggy B.]

Just to be annoying -- my dictionary and dictionary.com both define 'profanity' as 'obscenity'. :-D I think it's probably personal opinion for the most part.

I looked at Merriam-Webster.com for my definition. Profane language is abuse of something considered sacred or holy. Fuck, in my mind, does not qualify.

In many way's it doesn't really matter. But there is a reason why different types of swears fall into different categories. And why I find it so odd that most people are so much less offended by "Jesus" as a swear than they are "fuck" or "cunt." (And I speak about people who are offended by such.)

[Birol]

I've just deleted the Bruce Springsteen song for copyright violation.

Let me make this perfectly clear to each and everyone one of you: As long as this thread continues to be an intellectual discussion, it can continue, but if it degenerates into a test of who can say something more shocking and vulgar than the next person, I will ban each and every individual who participates. I will not ask questions. I will not accept explanations. There will be no discussion. It will just happen.

[Ken]

... there are no expletives in any of my works :-)
though I do tend to utter a lot of them when struggling to compose the danged things.

[willietheshakes]

I've just deleted the Bruce Springsteen song for copyright violation.


Sorry, Birol -- I assumed the accreditation and the context (ie, critical discussion falling under fair use) were all right in this case...

[Perks]

The word f*ck--a sign of weakness?

God, I hope not. I've been working out and everything.

[maestrowork]

Every word must be the RIGHT word, the best word. And that includes curse words. If it's the right word for the right context for the right story for the right character and right circumstances, by all means use it. To do otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

But anything overused and abused is just lame. Say "fuck" too many times in your story and I guarantee it will lose its meaning and impact, and in fact may become just tedious. Swear words, to me, is like seasoning. A little bit goes a long way.

And of course, do know your audiences. If you're writing for 6-year-olds, it's probably not a good idea to do a story about inner city thugs and cops who like to spice up their conversations.

[vox]

If I understand the OP correctly, the question wasn't about the use of profanity in writing, but whether using that particular word was a substitute for writing more compelling prose.

My response: it often can be.

It happens every day in converstation - we probably all know someone who feels they simply cannot express themselves without using it, usually in multiples. Now, I've heard some very intelligent people come up with some pretty creative (some would say artful) ways to use the word, but the majority of people for whom that particular word has become a crutch just sound like their linguistic toolbox is barren. Either that, or it's just too much effort to go back to the toolbox for a tap hammer when they're already holding the sledge.

The problem is, we've allowed (or forced) that word to have so many nuances and connotations that it really has put down roots in a bunch of places within the language. For those who use it, it's quite a versitile word.

I certainly don't balk when I come across it in a book, but I also (like Ken) choose to write without it or any other expletives. Can I create believable characters and communicate sufficient emotion that way? Time will tell.

[regdog]

Sometimes a person or character just has to let an "f" bomb drop. If I stepped on a rusty nail(which I did once) I sure wouldn't say "Oh shucks."
When used in the right context there is nothing wrong with it. When thrown in there just to say it, then it can sound stupid

[Roger J Carlson]

Although I don't use it in my writing, I can see where it has its uses in other people's. However, contrary to most people, I think "fuck" is a weak word, not strong.

I once heard an extremely funny dissertation on the word. The narrator used a straight lecture-type voice enumerating all the different uses for "fuck". It's a noun, a verb, an adjective, and an adverb. It can be used to show anger, delight, anxiety, ecstasy, frustration, in fact, almost any emotion. (If we didn't have a corporate net-nanny, I'd Google it. I'm sure it's out there somewhere.)

But this got me to thinking that its very flexibility makes it a weak word. When it means so many things, it doesn't really mean anything. When you rely too much on a single word, I think that is a sign of weak writing -- like the overuse of the word "very".

[eyeblink]

Roddy Doyle and James Kelman are Booker Prizewinning novelists whose characters swear a lot. In both cases much of the flavour of their works comes from their ear for dialogue, Dubliner and Glaswegian respectively.

Harold Pinter was a playwright who used strong language occasionally but effectively. His play Landscape was banned by the Lord Chamberlain (the UK's theatre censor, whose powers were abolished in 1968) and had to be premiered on radio when Pinter refused to cut the words "fuck all".

As to examples where the word is absolutely necessary, well there's an argument which I don't subscribe to that in a work of fiction you're making things up so could just as easily make up another word for your characters to use. So I'll use a filmic example, based on fact (and a non-fiction book), where the words are a matter of historical record - All The President's Men, whose screenplay won William Goldman an Oscar. Amongst other things, the plot depends on the phrase "ratfucking".

Another historical event where this applies would be the 1960 trial of Penguin Books over their paperback edition of D.H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover, a landmark in the history of British censorship. A 1980 dramatisation marked the first time the BBC sanctioned the use of "fuck" in a scripted TV drama.

[maestrowork]

In Ian McEwan's Atonement there's a well-placed c-word that is both dramatically and emotionally potent.

Any other word just wouldn't do.


It's the RIGHT word.



In my WIP, I'm contemplating about using the c-word myself. It feels to be the right word, but I haven't used much swear words in the novel at all. So it seems really out of place. However, I have used substitutes such as whore, etc. and none of them felt right; none of them seemed to be the word the character would say. They just feel "intellectually and literarily dishonest." So for now, I'm leaving it in. If my editor has a problem with it, I'll deal with that later.

[The Lonely One]

Oh dear. Another thread debating the value of swearing. We're all adults and what's more, we're all writers. We use words and hopefully we own those words, too. If our characters swear (or drink or smoke or wank or do drugs or anything potentially offensive), then that's what they do. If they're racist or wife beaters or child molesters, then that's what they are.

I repeat, we're all adults. AND WE'RE FUCKING WRITERS. As long we're serving our story, then what in the name of shit is wrong with swearing?

It was not really my intention to trudge up an old argument. I've only been here a short stay and the search function and I don't get along too well...

However, just to be perfectly clear to everyone, my question isn't regarding the vulgarity of the word. It's about how useful it is in place of other words or if you just cut it. I gave the example in my WIP and why I thought it was a weak adjective used to beef the sentence up with steroids. Some other examples thus far have proved to be eye opening as far as what they would look like without the swearing (not nearly the same impact).

That's why I like to hear your opinions and thoughts; otherwise it's just me and my tiny brain talking back and forth and neither of us really knows what's going on, to be honest :).

Here's a better idea of what I mean:

Danny Boy winked. "George, if you fucking move I'll fucking kill you."

I must wonder, in this kind of instance, what purpose the word serves other than to keep that sentence from being tightened significantly.

Danny Boy winked. "George, if you move I'll kill you."

Tighter, subtler writing, me thinks. Of course there are likely other examples where the same cutting has disastrous results, which is why I will concede to the opinion that context rules (jeez I'm tired of that opinion! :))

[Don Allen]

Every word must be the RIGHT word, the best word. And that includes curse words. If it's the right word for the right context for the right story for the right character and right circumstances, by all means use it. To do otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

But anything overused and abused is just lame. Say "fuck" too many times in your story and I guarantee it will lose its meaning and impact, and in fact may become just tedious. Swear words, to me, is like seasoning. A little bit goes a long way.

And of course, do know your audiences. If you're writing for 6-year-olds, it's probably not a good idea to do a story about inner city thugs and cops who like to spice up their conversations.

Well said, good squire...

Too wit,

"Yippie-ki-ay- mudder-Fuck"

The line uttered by Hans in "Die Hard" is one of the best examples EVER of proper and wonderful usage of a profanity.

In this case it conveys outrage, contempt, anxiety, loathing, and confusion that couldn't have been described in a million words.

Profanity is power, and used correctly can blow the story off the page, used gratuitously and the power is diminished.

Except when used in conjunction of repetitive anger or terror where the power of the profanity keeps the action at a fever pitch. ex: Joe pesci good fellows "Whats so fucking funny about me, I'm here to amuse you."

I don't like it when characters are having consensual first time or married sex, cause it rarely if ever is a turn on in either case, yet rape and orgy sex depictions are great examples where the power of the profanity is translated into the acts of sexual aggression.

I do like street slang profanity in relationship to street characters as the best way to differentiate between ignorant street chubs and streetwise dudes on the climb because the higher thinking character will act almost as if he is deciphering some foreign language, done well it's equivalent to an art form, think "Pulp Fiction" masterful...

[DMarie84]

I think like any word, it can be used too much.

For example, if I hear someone say it every other word, it loses meaning. If you want to use it to show strong emotion, then make sure it's used sparingly.

Even if the character is one of those people who uses swear words in every sentence, you have to remember that most people will get sick of reading it. I know books are suppose to mimic life to some extent, but when dialogue really does mimic our imperfect speech patterns, readers don't like it.

It's all about finding that balance between conveying emotion and reality and becoming overdone.

[The Lonely One]

If I understand the OP correctly, the question wasn't about the use of profanity in writing, but whether using that particular word was a substitute for writing more compelling prose.

My response: it often can be.

It happens every day in converstation - we probably all know someone who feels they simply cannot express themselves without using it, usually in multiples. Now, I've heard some very intelligent people come up with some pretty creative (some would say artful) ways to use the word, but the majority of people for whom that particular word has become a crutch just sound like their linguistic toolbox is barren. Either that, or it's just too much effort to go back to the toolbox for a tap hammer when they're already holding the sledge.

The problem is, we've allowed (or forced) that word to have so many nuances and connotations that it really has put down roots in a bunch of places within the language. For those who use it, it's quite a versitile word.

I certainly don't balk when I come across it in a book, but I also (like Ken) choose to write without it or any other expletives. Can I create believable characters and communicate sufficient emotion that way? Time will tell.

I somehow missed this post.

Hammer: nail.

[Cyia]

It depends on how, when and why you use it. If the character is someone who swears a lot, then it's probably going to fit with their dialogue and no one will think anything of it. However, if you have a character who routinely uses euphemisms and "darn" or "heck" is the strongest language they normally use, then it wouldn't fit in an everyday conversation. Make that same character angry or frustrated enough to use it and it can have an extreme impact in the scene - likewise, making them squirm because they want to repeat something someone told them verbatim can be useful for character development.

[maestrowork]

Danny Boy winked. "George, if you fucking move I'll fucking kill you."

Danny Boy winked. "George, if you move I'll kill you."

To be honest, the two sentences meant different things now that you've dropped the f word, even if the context is the same. The intensity or the underlying meaning is different. In the original, there seems to be (because of the word "winked") a sense of camaraderie and playfulness in it. It's lost in the second sentence.

Yes, the second sentence seems to be tighter and more straightforward, but not everything is about prose-tightening. We must NOT forsake tone and voice for conciseness.

The tone and voice of these two sentences are very different, so the writer must decide which one is the right one. Or can the word be substituted or reduced, etc. and achieve the same effect:

Danny Boy winked. "George, if you move I'll goddam kill you."

Danny Boy winked. "George, if you move I'll fucking kill you."

Danny Boy winked. "George, if you move I'll frigging kill you."


And I for one do not believe using "fuck" is a sign of weakness if it's the right word. It means the writer is honest.

[Roger J Carlson]

And I for one do not believe using "fuck" is a sign of weakness if it's the right word. I just have trouble believing it's the right word 200 times in a novel. It means the writer is honest.Honest question, not baiting: Do you think a writer is dishonest if he or she never uses the word?

[Lifelongdagger]

What I've found in my obscenity infected novel, is placement is key.

For instance. In the above example.

Danny Boy winked. 'George, if you fucking move, I'll kill you.'

Danny Boy winked. 'George, if you move, I'll fucking kill you.'

The first, in my head, sounds a little more tongue in cheek than the second.

Interesting stuff.

[seun]

It was not really my intention to trudge up an old argument.

Don't get me wrong. I wasn't having a go. It's just the whole swearing/no swearing thing comes up quite a bit.

[Don Allen]

I just have trouble believing it's the right word 200 times in a novel. Honest question, not baiting: Do you think a writer is dishonest if he or she never uses the word?

No, is the correct answer, but the author who chooses to do without slang in say a novel of ghetto life in east L.A. would be at risk of intellectual dishonesty if they didn't provide some expose' into the language variant, IMO.

[NeuroFizz]

No word, in and of itself, represents a weakness in someone's writing. How the word is used is what makes the useage weak, strong, or in-between.

[BigWords]

It amuses me that everyone has remained firmly within the English language thus far. Is swearing only considered swearing if the average reader comprehends the intention of the word? There are absolutely beautiful swear words in the Spanish, Italian, French and German languages, and they can be used indiscriminately without drawing attention to themselves if an international flavour exists in the work.
Cantonese has some very complex phrases that are amazing to listen to, though are absolutely disgusting once you are told what is being said.

[Ken]

Do you think a writer is dishonest if he or she never uses the word?

... not at all. If this were the case the majority of Christian fiction authors, who rarely use swear words in their works, would have to be classified as dishonest, which obviously is not the case.

Fiction is fictional and what a novelist puts into their work is their own choice. There is no rule that says that a novelist must portray reality as it is. Journalists are required to do that, but not novelists.

[Roger J Carlson]

It amuses me that everyone has remained firmly within the English language thus far. Is swearing only considered swearing if the average reader comprehends the intention of the word? There are absolutely beautiful swear words in the Spanish, Italian, French and German languages, and they can be used indiscriminately without drawing attention to themselves if an international flavour exists in the work.
Cantonese has some very complex phrases that are amazing to listen to, though are absolutely disgusting once you are told what is being said.I distinctly remember an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Picard said "merde". I don't know if it slipped past the censors, or if they thought no one would know what it meant.

[seun]

I get the impression from the replies here that North Americans have more of an issue with swearing than Europeans. Not sure how true that is. I'd be interested to hear what you all think.

[BigWords]

I was pointing out in general, though not specifically, the OP using 'fuck' when any number of other words can be substituted in it's place. Pendejo, for one, is a superb word that only seems to exist in a specific type of 'street' writing. It's use across the West coast of America, in wide circulation, means that the average person should understand the intention, if not the meaning.

The fact that the word chosen happens to be one of the most prolific swear words in the English language shows its' acceptance in "common language", distinct from any of the more wilfully obscure words which may provoke a greater reaction. In certain societies it is considered extremely rude (and even irreligious) to say "Jesus Christ" in the context of irritation, frustration or as a replacement for swearing.

If anyone wants to swear in their work, they should be aware of other languages, just so they have something to fall back on when the typical swearing doesn't work. There is a website (http://www.vnutz.com/curse_and_swear)devoted to such foreign words, and further reading is suggested for everyone...

*looking up nutsack in Icelandic*

ETA: There's a better one, but I've lost the bookmark. Will include link when I find it.

[Roger J Carlson]

If anyone wants to swear in their work, they should be aware of other languages, just so they have something to fall back on when the typical swearing doesn't work. There is a website devoted to such foreign words, and further reading is suggested for everyone...

*looking up nutsack in Icelandic*Link?

[SilverPhoenix]

I think the use of swear words depends on the characters really. By example of real life ~ My friends don't swear much. Me, I walk around looking and talking real innocent and sweet and then let out colourful strings of swears like they're normal words 'yeah i didn't really fuckin feel like doing that bloody thing, was a load of fuckin bullshit'. But I wouldn't give a character that kind of dialogue - overuse of words is what make them weak, not the words themselves.

A well-placed 'shit' or 'fuck' can make a powerful impact as a strong word, but only if used sparingly. They should not be leaned on as crutch words to enhance dialogue or create effect/impact in dialogue. That is a sign of weakness in the writing, the same as relying on 'spat' or 'hollered' instead of 'said'.

[seun]

Am I missing something? Why would the average English speaker start swearing in a different language?

[scarletpeaches]

I just have trouble believing it's the right word 200 times in a novel. Honest question, not baiting: Do you think a writer is dishonest if he or she never uses the word?

In my case, 275-or-however-many-times-it-was, was just right. But then, I don't think you'd read my stuff anyway, so...*shrug* I write about people who say 'fuck'. I'm surrounded by such people in my everyday life. It's an earthy word, and most people in my social circle use it to express anger, lust, extremism, surprise...or as a punctuation mark.

As to a writer being dishonest? No. I wouldn't say so, if they write characters who don't say the word.

If you write about, oh, let's say...a serial killer who says, "Gosh, officer, these cuffs really chafe, you know!" then you'd be dishonest, but...it's got nothing to do with what the author would say and everything to do with the characters.

The author has no business being in the book. Stay out, let the characters do their thing, whether it be with a fuck, a bloody hell or a gosh-darn-it.

[scarletpeaches]

In Ian McEwan's Atonement there's a well-placed c-word that is both dramatically and emotionally potent.

Any other word just wouldn't do.


It's the RIGHT word.



In my WIP, I'm contemplating about using the c-word myself. It feels to be the right word, but I haven't used much swear words in the novel at all. So it seems really out of place. However, I have used substitutes such as whore, etc. and none of them felt right; none of them seemed to be the word the character would say. They just feel "intellectually and literarily dishonest." So for now, I'm leaving it in. If my editor has a problem with it, I'll deal with that later.

I used it twice in a 150k novel, and not at all so far in a 95k WIP.

Jarring, but had the right effect. And not in respect to calling someone a whore, but referring to the actual body part in the heat of passion, shall we say.;)

[RG570]

It'll sure have more impact if you only use it once or twice in a whole novel.

I think it's incredibly weak most of the time. One of the reasons I find True Blood to be one of the worst shows ever is the ham-fisted scripts slathered in way more swearing than is normal even among rednecks.

Then there are the pseudo-literary types trying so hard to be edgy with pointless writing where every sentence is about drugs or has some profanity in it. It's not edgy, it's just lazy.


The C word is a whole other animal. It's probably only ever going to be used once or twice, and still carries enough impact to be useful. Fuck, on the other hand, is utterly pointless now. I bet teenagers don't even get in trouble for saying it in class anymore.

[BigWords]

The author has no business being in the book. Stay out, let the characters do their thing, whether it be with a fuck, a bloody hell or a gosh-darn-it.

Gosh-darn-it, poppycock, darn and other 'mild' swearwords have history. Poppycock is from 'pappe kak' (spelling might be off) and means 'soft shit'. It's advisable that when people use swearwords, and even those of the milder variety, they are aware of the useage throughout the lifetime of the words.

[scarletpeaches]

Even cor blimey has fruity origins.

[Roger J Carlson]

In my case, 275-or-however-many-times-it-was, was just right. But then, I don't think you'd read my stuff anyway, so...*shrug* Like as not. And I don't mean that as an indictment of your work. For different reasons, I'll also never read or write a Stephen King-type novel either.

I write about people who say 'fuck'. I'm surrounded by such people in my everyday life. It's an earthy word, and most people in my social circle use it to express anger, lust, extremism, surprise...or as a punctuation mark. Again, not an indictment, but there are very few words I use 200 times in a novel. I've counted all the words in my novels and the only ones I use that often are character's names or words like "there", "never", "more", "room" and such-like. Perhaps erotica is different, but it seems like overkill. Still, I don't insist upon it.

As to a writer being dishonest? No. I wouldn't say so, if they write characters who don't say the word.

If you write about, oh, let's say...a serial killer who says, "Gosh, officer, these cuffs really chafe, you know!" then you'd be dishonest, but...it's got nothing to do with what the author would say and everything to do with the characters.

The author has no business being in the book. Stay out, let the characters do their thing, whether it be with a fuck, a bloody hell or a gosh-darn-it.There are a lot of stories I will never tell, that is certainly true.

[LuckyH]

I write crime fiction, the gritty stuff, and I was writing early this morning. I wrote the language of the streets, mean ones at that, and the fuck word and others slipped in when appropriate.

While reading this thread, I can hear a recent film being watched a couple of rooms away, which contains what I consider excessive swearing, and I find it off-putting.

Yet someone must have written those words which passed all the safeguards on their way to the screen. That writer would not have got past my last editor, and I'm going to try and turn the volume down.

[seun]

Fuck, on the other hand, is utterly pointless now.

Pointless in what respect? To shock? Depends how you use it.

[BigWords]

Foreign swearywords.

http://www.youswear.com/
http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/

There is a swearing CD, which offers pronounciation of words, here (http://www.prankplace.com/swear_cursing101.htm). $9.99. No idea if it could be useful in writing the words, but if you need to hear the intonation and tempo of the words (for a character who is swearing in a rapid rhythm) it could add a little something.

[Izz]

If you write about, oh, let's say...a serial killer who says, "Gosh, officer, these cuffs really chafe, you know!" then you'd be dishonestHmm--personally, i think a serial killer who did say this would be a whole lot more interesting than a stereotypical serial killer who swore like a sailor (yes, that last stereotype on purpose, because it makes me chuckle).

[Cranky]

Interesting question, I suppose. The old saying about cursing in general doesn't always translate to writing, though, imo.

Word choice matters, and I would give equal consideration (at a certain level of editing, that is) over whether to include "than" as I would profanity. If a word is there, it needs to serve a purpose, and it has to be a word that works better than any other word I could have chosen. Sometimes, that word is going to be an f-bomb. Other times, I could just mention that the character used a naughty word rather than spelling out what word it was. I've written stories only 100 words long that had two curses in it, and a 50k manuscript without a single one. Depends on the story.

[Charlie Horse]

Seems awfully limiting to rule out usage of any words in my vocabulary, especially ones that get frequent use in real life. If you're writing for adults, then your characters should talk like adults.

[RickN]

I have no problems with curse words in writing as long as they fit the character. Like every other word, they have a time and place.

I have noticed, when critiquing works, that many young writers will toss around the curses like crazy, as if it makes their work more edgy or gritty. You can't cuss your way to good writing. Just part of the learning curve. I guess.

[Nivarion]

I didn't read the rest of the thread so this 2 cents might have been thrown in already, but.

Profanities are often a sign of a hole in vocabulary. People or characters who swear often probably don't have a lot of words at their disposal. swear words, Especially Fu-- are a like the letherman of words. They can do anything, but not well.

However, just because its there, doesn't mean the person is uneducated. Sometimes the F-Bomb is the only word you can say.

"Oh FU-" SPLAT

I'm a good example of this. I nearly never swear at all when speaking, but in writing i swear all the time. Why? because I spell so bad that half my vocabulary is just gone when i start to write.

Like take a look at your sentence.

The world was my fucking gazelle

This works, (I pick up that the whole part was a little odd though.) but so does

"The world was my personal gazelle"

Neither is good, though. just an example.

Now I have to go take apart my key board. Its got food in it.

[KTC]

Am I missing something? Why would the average English speaker start swearing in a different language?

I have seen it done. Case in point: My father swears in French. But, yes...I have heard people swear in many languages. It's like a 'hehe, I'm getting away with it' thing. When we were kids, we tiptoed away when our father began bringing out the French.

[BigWords]

The English language has stolen words from all over the world over the centuries. It is only in the last ten years or so that poon / poontang has been heard in regular conversation in Fife, and on the wider stage the Jai Ho song by Pussycat Dolls could be argued to have added a new phrase to the language. Using foreign words should not indicate that a character has suddenly changed nationality, but is aware of the evolving nature of the English language.

Getting the 'fit' of a foreign word can be difficult, but so is including obscure slang. A Clockwork Orange is esential reading if you want to debate what is and what isn't "English". I consider any word to be fair game. If a character could use a word, then there is no reason why they shouldn't.

[Cyia]

When I was in high school, people would swear in Spanish, as most of the teachers couldn't understand the language.

[KTC]

Honest question, not baiting: Do you think a writer is dishonest if he or she never uses the word?


I would say---of course not. Each writer has to be honest to him/her self. I don't use a lot of swearing in my work. But I do use it. In dialogue, I use it where I believe it is needed. But other writers can choose to not use it and it would still work for them. In my current WIP, my lead character's dialogue rings truer when it's peppered with bad language. To me, this is the way she talks. I'm not going to censor her.

[scarletpeaches]

I didn't read the rest of the thread so this 2 cents might have been thrown in already, but.

Profanities are often a sign of a hole in vocabulary. People or characters who swear often probably don't have a lot of words at their disposal. swear words, Especially Fu-- are a like the letherman of words. They can do anything, but not well...

What a load of rubbish.

We're writers and you're calling into question our vocabulary?

I swear, and I swear often. If you think that means I don't have many words at my disposal, then that's your lookout. I don't much care for such opinions.

The more swear words you know, the larger your vocabulary I would have thought.

[maestrowork]

I just have trouble believing it's the right word 200 times in a novel. Honest question, not baiting: Do you think a writer is dishonest if he or she never uses the word?

If the character uses it and the writer refuses to use it, then yes, the writer is being dishonest. He's basically censoring. If the writer finds himself explaining why his Jersey mafia guy doesn't swear at all, then I do believe the writer is not being true to the character. If the writer manipulates and makes up backgrounds so that his mafia guy doesn't swear at all, then he's being dishonest.

I mean, even my mother swears. Swearing is part of life.

However, if your characters truly don't and won't swear, then he or she should NOT swear. In my WIP, my characters hardly swear. In my published novel, the protagonist swears a lot, but his love interest doesn't. It all depends on the character.

[maestrowork]

There are a lot of stories I will never tell, that is certainly true.

We all choose to tell the tales and the characters we want. If you find yourself avoiding telling these tales not because they don't excite you, but for the simple fact that you don't want to swear and you can't write characters who swear, then it's your decision. Personally, I think you'd be limiting yourself creatively. However, we all make our own artistic choices. If we find the word objectionable enough that we're avoid it, to the point of not telling those stories, then it's our right to do so.

The reverse is also true. Where is Stephen King now if he hadn't made the choices he did and told the stories he wanted, which included people of all background swearing their heads off. How could he write about hard criminals in prison without a single swear word? He made his choices and he told the stories the best he could, good stuff, bad stuff. The job of the storyteller is never to censor his characters. The best he can do is NOT to write about them.

[BigWords]

I mean, even my mother swears.

Mine says "Oh B," or "Oh bother." Not everyone swears. I'm prone to letting rip a five-minute-long string of the foulest language you'll ever hear, but that is just me. Everyone has different tolerance levels.

[maestrowork]

Mine says "Oh B," or "Oh bother." Not everyone swears. I'm prone to letting rip a five-minute-long string of the foulest language you'll ever hear, but that is just me. Everyone has different tolerance levels.

My point is you have to be true to the character, instead of typing them and saying, "oh, but people like her don't swear. Mothers or grandmothers don't swear. Children don't swear. School teachers don't swear... etc."

Of course they do. Maybe not yours. Just wait until you hear Betty White swear... :)

If we're writing about your mother, anything other than "Oh Brother" would be dishonest. If we're writing about my mother, then saying "oh brother" is dishonest.

That's my point.

[socact]

I think this is a very valid question. I've gone through my WIP's and eliminated a lot of curse words (namely fuck). I think it does weaken the writing in some cases, usually when I'm using it as a crutch.

My mom also refuses to read curse words, so it's forced me to edit some of my WIP's so she can read them.

So anyway, yeah. I think sometimes you should really ask yourself if it's necessary.

[Rushie]

You don't have to use swear words just because your character would in real life. There's lots of ways your character isn't true to real life. Maybe you never show him once going to the bathroom. Yet you wouldn't say your character is less "true" to himself just because you don't include showing him going to the bathroom in your novel. Suppose you want to write a middle school level book that includes gangsters? Couldn't you write the gangsters believably without including the word fuck? Or do we have that word in all children's books now too?

[The Lonely One]

I think what I'm getting is that a.) you guys believe writers shouldn't censor themselves (obviously--I don't either) and b.) curses work when they are the best word choice, but not as a crutch to beef up poor sentences. Which was my concern with my own writing.

Keep posting. Very interesting stuff.

[KTC]

You don't have to use swear words just because your character would in real life. There's lots of ways your character isn't true to real life. Maybe you never show him once going to the bathroom. Yet you wouldn't say your character is less "true" to himself just because you don't include showing him going to the bathroom in your novel. Suppose you want to write a middle school level book that includes gangsters? Couldn't you write the gangsters believably without including the word fuck? Or do we have that word in all children's books now too?

This is ill logic. My character going to the bathroom wouldn't necessarily move my story forward. Her potty mouth when she gets disturbed? I see it as necessary at times. She's insane and I feel her dialogue is more authentic as I have written it. If I was writing a middle school level book, I would find a way around it...but I'm not. Everything has its place, including Fuck and Shit and other swear words. Overuse is just stupid, but ignoring them is too...IF they are called for.

[scarletpeaches]

You don't have to use swear words just because your character would in real life. There's lots of ways your character isn't true to real life. Maybe you never show him once going to the bathroom. Yet you wouldn't say your character is less "true" to himself just because you don't include showing him going to the bathroom in your novel. Suppose you want to write a middle school level book that includes gangsters? Couldn't you write the gangsters believably without including the word fuck? Or do we have that word in all children's books now too?

You can write a book without describing your characters' every bowel movement.

Try writing a book where they never speak.

Plus, what KTC said.

[BigWords]

Couldn't you write the gangsters believably without including the word fuck? Of course. There are many types of stereotypical gangsters in fiction, so it would be a matter of getting around the perceived notion of behaviour pattern. It's all down to the details of an individual. There are no absolutes. Case in point: the older 'gentleman' in the East End of London (the guys who hung around with the Kray twins) would stop younger associates in their tracks if they dared use any 'racy' language in front of a woman. I've heard many stories about such duality in people who are expected to behave in a certain way. People assume that 'ganster' means a certain thing. It doesn't. Italians are different from the Japanese (Yakuza, who are big on polite behaviour), and the British ones are different from the Vegas types of the fifties. It's all down to the nature of the world they inhabit.

[The Lonely One]

Talking is more important to understanding a characters soul than their bowel movements.

Never say never. There's already someone out there working feverishly at their writing desk to prove you wrong.

No, it's not me.

[Cassiopeia]

I tried to stay out of this thread. Honestly, SP...I even broke out into a sweat avoiding it.

I have always been against vulgarity in literature. I've done my level best to avoid it. In particular I avoid it in YA stories.

BUT----------

I have a character who swears. I tried to talk to him about his potty mouth but he just wouldn't listen. Actually him and another one. But it's a story about cops. I have to be realistic. In today's world, they are going to swear. And use the F word.

HOWEVER---------

I do limit the use of it because I don't think people use it every other word in real conversations in real life and if they do, well they aren't like my characters.

I abhor anything that is done gratuitously. And I mean I hate it. I'll turn on an author and never read another book by them or watch another movie from that producer if they annoy me with things just for shock value.

I am also working on a fantasy novel...there's absolutely NO swearing in it. It just doesn't call for it. It's the way it is.

As a writer, we need to know when something is called for or not.

As a mother who has raised three kids without a swear word spoken in our home, not even shut up for years...not every family is like mine...but there are plenty enough readers out there who will censor what their kids read.

Again, I'm going to repeat myself...how much of your market share will you use if you don't use the F word appropriately. Know your market...know your readers.

[Elidibus]

You don't have to use swear words just because your character would in real life. There's lots of ways your character isn't true to real life. Maybe you never show him once going to the bathroom. Yet you wouldn't say your character is less "true" to himself just because you don't include showing him going to the bathroom in your novel. Suppose you want to write a middle school level book that includes gangsters? Couldn't you write the gangsters believably without including the word fuck? Or do we have that word in all children's books now too?

I'm going to third what everyone said above me. We'll take an example real fast after ctrl F Fuck on my WIP.

"I'm going after him. Leave me the fuck alone."

The character (Sophie) is supposed to be quite pissed off at what happened a scene before this. How better to illustrate how she feels than to type what she actually says? Anything less and it doesn't do her character justice. It's not authentic.

In writing, I believe we're supposed to show people our characters for who they really are. This is Sophie. I don't know how to illustrate her any more than showing exactly how she would react in a given circumstance. And sometimes, she swears.

As for using them. I think we've got that pretty much taken care of. Use them where appropriate because too much spice can ruin a dish :-)

[electric violet]

Hey all, I didn't go through all the pages so sorry if I'm repeating, but I was seeing a lot of 'it loses its meaning if used too often.'

Here's the thing about that....when people curse, they don't give a 'fuck' how YOU take it, or how you see its meaning, or how you analyze the reason they are using it. They use it to express themselves, so I'm going to put my vote in with everyone else's that say it is strictly the character.

It's simply a matter that changes from person to person, no matter if you cuss or not. (There were also some people saying, 'too much is too often, and I even cuss in real life'.) It doesn't matter, it's something everyone has their own feelings about so there really shouldn't be a general rule about profanity in writing. It would be like debating between using the word 'sick' or 'ill.' Everyone has different opinions about it.

[scarletpeaches]

Cass - with you on the hatred of anything gratuitous.

Thing is, with my characters - their swearing isn't. Or rather, my writing of it isn't, because that's what they say, that's how they speak.

It's not that every third word is 'fuck', but if they say it, I write it. Usually in sexual situations, but sometimes in everyday life as well.

It's a common word where I come from. I write about characters who are similar to the kind of people I know.

(n.b. I don't know any shapeshifters; that part's made up).

[Cassiopeia]

I'm going to third what everyone said above me. We'll take an example real fast after ctrl F Fuck on my WIP.

"I'm going after him. Leave me the fuck alone."

The character (Sophie) is supposed to be quite pissed off at what happened a scene before this. How better to illustrate how she feels than to type what she actually says? Anything less and it doesn't do her character justice. It's not authentic.

In writing, I believe we're supposed to show people our characters for who they really are. This is Sophie. I don't know how to illustrate her any more than showing exactly how she would react in a given circumstance. And sometimes, she swears.

As for using them. I think we've got that pretty much taken care of. Use them where appropriate because too much spice can ruin a dish :-)Meh. I don't find your example that compelling to prove your point. You can leave fuck out of it and I get the same feeling.

It goes down to your character's personality, not emphasis if you ask me.

[Cassiopeia]

Cass - with you on the hatred of anything gratuitous.

Thing is, with my characters - their swearing isn't. Or rather, my writing of it isn't, because that's what they say, that's how they speak.

It's not that every third word is 'fuck', but if they say it, I write it. Usually in sexual situations, but sometimes in everyday life as well.

It's a common word where I come from. I write about characters who are similar to the kind of people I know.

(n.b. I don't know any shapeshifters; that part's made up).Perfect example of what I'm talking about. Where you are from and where you are writing about play a huge part in the culture of your story and the personality of your characters.

If I was writing...oh say about the midlands near Northamptonshire where I stayed two years ago..OH HELL yeah my characters would swear every third word.

[scarletpeaches]

And if my book was set in Norfolk they'd all have webbed hands. :D

[Cassiopeia]

And if my book was set in Norfolk they'd all have webbed hands. :Dhehehe. exactly.

[Ken Schneider]

You shouldn't be afriad of using the word, fuck, if it fits your character.

Now, your sweet old granny who drops a piece of pie on the kitchen floor most likely wouldn't use fuck. She might say, rats, dang etc.

Establish the character as a person who would cuss, and carry on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck

[Pepper]

Sorry, I didn't want to read through 5 pages on the word f*ck (yes, I will be bleeping it out!) :D So forgive me if I repeat what someone else has said.

I think f*ck can be used effectively in fiction. The last book I read, Mr Clarinet by Nick Stone, was full of the word. The main character was a cop turned private investigator turned ex-con. It suited him just fine, because he was a badass. A couple questions;

Are you using f*ck in an attempt to make the character seem more tough? A sissy (or weak) character will not be 'magically' made tough by introducing swear words to his vocabulary. Swear words should simply be the sauce on top of a badass pie. ;)

In line with the above thought, are you using f*ck to try and 'magically' beef up a weak sentence? Can rewording the sentence, adding new words, or expanding on the thought make it stronger?

Have you overused the word? Any word that has been overused will stand out. What you're aiming for is enough usage to spice up your writing, but it should be almost invisible, like the word "said".

Will your use of f*ck confuse the sentence?
"The world was my f*cking gazelle"
Am I the only one who gets a mental image of the world being a gazelle caught in the act of humping? :D


Here's some excerpts from Mr Clarinet to show Nick Stone's usage of swear words:

It was the best shit Max had ever had, way better than the year-old garbage he'd just smoked.

.... and then, if it wasn't working or the scumbag was a particularly sick f*ck, or Joe was just having a bad day - KA-F*CKING-BOOM! - he'd backhand them to the floor.

"You know, if I want pussy I put on two condoms and go to one of those Dominican whores near my barracks."

That's my opinion, anyway. :D

And for those wondering why I bleeped out.... I sound boyish enough with my Aussie accent without adding expletives to the mix. ^_^

[Salis]

This is an old argument. "Why not be completely profane? If it fits the character, it should be in there?"

Well, of course. This is true. But then you are always writing for an audience, so offending everyone is an unfortunate route to go. Somewhere in between you can find a good median...

Or you can just say, "To express myself artistically, my main character must enjoy eating babies, since this is a true expression of who he is."

Just don't expect every one to like it.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm not writing for everyone. I'm writing for people who aren't offended by 'fuck'.

[Salis]

I'm not writing for everyone. I'm writing for people who aren't offended by 'fuck'.

I sympathesize with this. For me, ultimately, it's about clarity. I could have a character who swears profusely, actually some characters would probably be more realistic if they swore constantly, but realistic doesn't always mean better. I've known people who swear constantly, and while I don't mind, it isn't exactly the most interesting sort of conversation.

Also, I am a commercial whore.

[The Lonely One]

Not sure why this keeps going into the realm of offending people. I suppose some of us do have that worry but I'm certainly not one. For me it's all about economic word choice and my worries: did I pick the strongest word?

I fear this thread may have fallen somewhat into the argument of "is being offensive OK," rather than analyzing fuck's strength as a word.

*paves road to hell.

[electric violet]

I'm not writing for everyone. I'm writing for people who aren't offended by 'fuck'.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA SPOT ON PEACHES!!!!!!

[scarletpeaches]

I sympathesize with this. For me, ultimately, it's about clarity. I could have a character who swears profusely, actually some characters would probably be more realistic if they swore constantly, but realistic doesn't always mean better. I've known people who swear constantly, and while I don't mind, it isn't exactly the most interesting sort of conversation.

Also, I am a commercial whore.

So am I, truth be told.

And I honestly don't see the problem. 'Fuck' just doesn't offend enough people for it to impact sales. Maybe it is a UK/US divide thing. Probably not.

But there are so many books for sale these days littered with profanities. Some books use none, others a few. There are books for all, and I hardly think a 'fuck' here and an 'arse' there is going to put off enough people for the entire publishing industry to shut up shop after going bankrupt.

Really...if your characters say it, you write it. I can't say it often enough.

[Salis]

Not sure why this keeps going into the realm of offending people. I suppose some of us do have that worry but I'm certainly not one. For me it's all about economic word choice and my worries: did I pick the strongest word?

I fear this thread may have fallen somewhat into the argument of "is being offensive OK," rather than analyzing fuck's strength as a word.

*paves road to hell.

Uhh, not sure what you're looking for there. I mean, if you're actively trying to be more profane, there are much stronger swear words, but it seems to me that whatever fits the character, fits the character.

Someone who says "Fuck!" a lot might resort to something completely tasteless when really pissed off.

[Salis]

So am I, truth be told.

And I honestly don't see the problem. 'Fuck' just doesn't offend enough people for it to impact sales. Maybe it is a UK/US divide thing. Probably not.

But there are so many books for sale these days littered with profanities. Some books use none, others a few. There are books for all, and I hardly think a 'fuck' here and an 'arse' there is going to put off enough people for the entire publishing industry to shut up shop after going bankrupt.

Really...if your characters say it, you write it. I can't say it often enough.

Yes and no. There are tons of books that swear like that. Tons of media too. But it's a direct form of targeting. Lots of swearing sets you up for a certain audience, and yes, it does remove lots of potential people from your audience. I guess the question is, does the mood/theme/characters you set up by using lots of profanity (or, put another way, just being relentlessly genuine in dialogue) get you more people interested in your book than the people who will be put off?

Obviously, censoring yourself when the entire point is to be profane or realistic is dumb. "Let's censor this rap song about having sex!" is the most retarded thing ever. "Let's change the wording slightly to broaden the appeal" on something else is more arguable.

[aadams73]

The right word at the right time, always.

On the other side of the coin, I've been reading a book in which the character uses all kinds of ridiculous cutesy words instead of actual profanities. It's a right pain in the ass.

If you say "fudge" instead of saying "fuck," it is no less profane as the intent is identical.

[Cassiopeia]

If you say "fudge" instead of saying "fuck," it is no less profane as the intent is identical.Sorry, cupcake but I don't agree. That's just something people who swear say to justify using the actual word. :)

[scarletpeaches]

And I have to disagree with your disagreement.

WE know you mean fuck. YOU know it. Just. Say. The. Word.

In fact I'm sure aadams73 and I steamrollered a thread once by insisting that very thing after getting all het up at a Stephen King novel - Lisey's Story.

I got intensely annoyed at the constant frickin' or farkin', whatever she said. ACK. Remind me, someone.

SMUCKIN'. That was it.

[Izz]

On the other side of the coin, I've been reading a book in which the character uses all kinds of ridiculous cutesy words instead of actual profanities. It's a right pain in the ass. In that case it's probably better to use nothing where the profanity or pseudo-profanity would go.

No fudging way, man. No fudging way am i gonna wear a fudging wire, man.

If you say "fudge" instead of saying "fuck," it is no less profane as the intent is identicalI completely agree. If the point of the word is to replace a swear, then it becomes a swear, because the person is substituting. Just like if you, the baseball manager, substitute your first-baseman with someone else, the replacement becomes your first-baseman for as long as he's out there, even if he doesn't quite have the same strength as the previous first-baseman.

I have to say (and this is only my opinion, as i'm sure everybody else's comments are only their opinion, too, and not stated as fact :tongue) that i can't ever remember reading a book and thinking, 'why isn't this character swearing?' Of course, i may be in the minority here. I have read books or watched TV or movies where the amount of gratuitous and pointless swearing has made me stop reading or watching, and that's the same with gratuitous sex or violence also. Most of the time, though, i stop reading a book or watching a movie/TV show because it's not very good.

On the point of 'if a certain type of character doesn't swear, then the author is being dishonest' i mostly disagree. Let's take a gangster-style character. I've read plenty of books/excerpts with gangsters who didn't swear and never thought the characters were badly portrayed. I've read lots of books/excerpts where the gangsters did swear and never once thought the characters were badly portrayed.

However, i've read plenty of books/excerpts with gangster-type characters who did or didn't swear and i've thought, 'what terribly drawn characters.' But it never had anything to with the character swearing or not swearing. It had everything to do with the writer not doing a good job of making the character live.

[Salis]

Sorry, cupcake but I don't agree. That's just something people who swear say to justify using the actual word. :)

Well, swear words are swear words because they have a shared strength/profanity to them.

While a really timid person might find "Fudge!" to be a shocking thing to say, no one else is going to get the message that they would from "Fuck!", and ultimately words are more about what they mean to other people than yourself, since you're communicating.

[scarletpeaches]

Well, swear words are swear words because they have a shared strength/profanity to them.

While a really timid person might find "Fudge!" to be a shocking thing to say, no one else is going to get the message that they would from "Fuck!", and ultimately words are more about what they mean to other people than yourself, since you're communicating.

I would. It's a one-syllable exclamation beginning with 'f-u'. Pretty obvious what the person saying it is thinking and avoiding saying out loud.

Not only would I get the message, I'd be even more annoyed at them for not having the balls to just say the damn word they're so scared of.

[Cassiopeia]

And I have to disagree with your disagreement.

WE know you mean fuck. YOU know it. Just. Say. The. Word.

In fact I'm sure aadams73 and I steamrollered a thread once by insisting that very thing after getting all het up at a Stephen King novel - Lisey's Story.

I got intensely annoyed at the constant frickin' or farkin', whatever she said. ACK. Remind me, someone.

SMUCKIN'. That was it.Maybe in your world that's what you mean but here in Utah? When we say oh my freaking heck...we mean freaking heck. fuck doesn't come into my mind.

If I want to say f*cking hell..and yes, I've been known to, I would and it means I'm pissed.

[scarletpeaches]

:Jaw:

[Cassiopeia]

Well, swear words are swear words because they have a shared strength/profanity to them.

While a really timid person might find "Fudge!" to be a shocking thing to say, no one else is going to get the message that they would from "Fuck!", and ultimately words are more about what they mean to other people than yourself, since you're communicating.Just so we're clear, if i wanted to say it, I'd say it.

And who says fudge? That's so 70's. :)

[Izz]

I would. It's a one-syllable exclamation beginning with 'f-u'. Pretty obvious what the person saying it is thinking and avoiding saying out loud.

Not only would I get the message, I'd be even more annoyed at them for not having the balls to just say the damn word they're so scared of.Unless they'd just dropped some fudge. Or made some fudge. Or enjoyed some other fudge-related activity.

[Cassiopeia]

:Jaw:poor scarlet. poor poor scarlet.

[scarletpeaches]

A part of me just died.

[Salis]

I would. It's a one-syllable exclamation beginning with 'f-u'. Pretty obvious what the person saying it is thinking and avoiding saying out loud.

Not only would I get the message, I'd be even more annoyed at them for not having the balls to just say the damn word they're so scared of.

I dunno, maybe I'm alone in that? If someone uses a cutesy replacement word, I don't think, "Wow, you have no balls, but you really wanted to say something nasty," I think, "Huh. You must not be all that pissed off."

It just has less power. Hence why "frack" (hello Battlestar Galactica) and all those silly replacement words always seem so stupid to me. Swearing is probably one of the hardest things to get right in speculative fiction, actually, since it's so idiosyncratic.

Swear words are totally arbitrary and cultural. So made-up swear words sound really dumb, and someone who doesn't even speak english saying "Fuck!" would be, uh, unlikely.

[Cassiopeia]

A part of me just died.aw..man...now I feel guilty.

[electric violet]

oooh the smuckin' drove me insane, too. really insane.

[Cassiopeia]

The thing is, swearing is a choice. People swear and people don't swear. Are characters should be true to life. Now if I was writing a book about an LDS woman in Utah..freaking heck, there's no way she'd be vulgar. At least...not where people would see or hear. :)

[Cyia]

When my cousin was a little girl, she'd get into trouble for saying BS (of course, this is with a family in which "screwed" up was considered vulgar) so I got her to saying "Poodle Doodle". They were so busy trying not to laugh at the adorable little curly headed blonde trying to make that sound like an angry curse that they forgot to punish her. :D

(and yep, gosh darn it, heck, and frick -- which I still use out of habit -- meant gosh darn it, heck and frick ;) )

[extortionist]

The thing is, swearing is a choice. People swear and people don't swear. Are characters should be true to life. Now if I was writing a book about an LDS woman in Utah..freaking heck, there's no way she'd be vulgar. At least...not where people would see or hear. :)
I agree, but I'd say also that being true to life doesn't necessarily mean making dialogue read like a transcription of a character's speech.

You can make a character vulgar without using vulgarity every other word, as much as you can make a character southern without trying to mimic an accent in the text or you can make a character learned without using an ostentatious vocabulary.

I don't say this because I'd be offended by anything, but that reading dialogue that does sound like a transcription is just awful. Like, dude, you know, it's just like fuckin ugly to read an shit and there's like no reason you know to like wri-write like that. When swearing is used very casually like that it's often just filler and shouldn't be there, much as you'd cut all the uhs and likes and you knows and such. All the effects of that kind of speech--minus the possibility of alienating, offending, or losing the respect of your audience--can be achieved through good word choice and construction in the dialogue.

Otherwise, if a situation and its characters call for obscenity, be obscene.

[Queen of Swords]

I enjoyed the dialogue in Quentin Tarantino's movies, and he does not hold back when it comes to strong language. But it fits his characters and circumstances.

I also enjoyed Annie Wilkes in Misery - she won't use the f-word but she has no problems with mutilating and murdering people. Nice contrast, that.

[Cassiopeia]

I agree, but I'd say also that being true to life doesn't necessarily mean making dialogue read like a transcription of a character's speech.

You can make a character vulgar without using vulgarity every other word, as much as you can make a character southern without trying to mimic an accent in the text or you can make a character learned without using an ostentatious vocabulary.

I don't say this because I'd be offended by anything, but that reading dialogue that does sound like a transcription is just awful. Like, dude, you know, it's just like fuckin ugly to read an shit and there's like no reason you know to like wri-write like that. When swearing is used very casually like that it's often just filler and shouldn't be there, much as you'd cut all the uhs and likes and you knows and such. All the effects of that kind of speech--minus the possibility of alienating, offending, or losing the respect of your audience--can be achieved through good word choice and construction in the dialogue.

Otherwise, if a situation and its characters call for obscenity, be obscene.But if your character talks like that exactly, that's not transcription. That's dialogue.

I happen to agree more on the side against vulgarity with or without swear words. If a story requires a really vulgar main character, you can bet I won't be the one to write it.

The occasional swear word for me is more than I am comfortable with when it comes to having the masses read it. In private is an entirely different matter. ;)

[MrWrite]

I tried to stay out of this thread. Honestly, SP...I even broke out into a sweat avoiding it.

I have always been against vulgarity in literature. I've done my level best to avoid it. In particular I avoid it in YA stories.

BUT----------

I have a character who swears. I tried to talk to him about his potty mouth but he just wouldn't listen. Actually him and another one. But it's a story about cops. I have to be realistic. In today's world, they are going to swear. And use the F word.

HOWEVER---------

I do limit the use of it because I don't think people use it every other word in real conversations in real life and if they do, well they aren't like my characters.

I abhor anything that is done gratuitously. And I mean I hate it. I'll turn on an author and never read another book by them or watch another movie from that producer if they annoy me with things just for shock value.

I am also working on a fantasy novel...there's absolutely NO swearing in it. It just doesn't call for it. It's the way it is.

As a writer, we need to know when something is called for or not.

As a mother who has raised three kids without a swear word spoken in our home, not even shut up for years...not every family is like mine...but there are plenty enough readers out there who will censor what their kids read.

Again, I'm going to repeat myself...how much of your market share will you use if you don't use the F word appropriately. Know your market...know your readers.

Years ago I worked with this guy called Derek. Literally every other word was "fuck" this and "cunt" that. He was the most foul mouthed person I ever met. Though in his case I think the language was a sign of weakness and very limited vocabulary. So yes people like that do exist. Though they are pretty rare. Also they tend not to have too many friends when they can't control such language even in front of women.

To be honest I don't think I've used a curse word in my novel yet. Not because I am looking to avoid using such words but because they just haven't come up yet.

[scarletpeaches]

Years ago I worked with this guy called Derek. Literally every other word was "fuck" this and "cunt" that. He was the most foul mouthed person I ever met. Though in his case I think the language was a sign of weakness and very limited vocabulary. So yes people like that do exist. Though they are pretty rare. Also they tend not to have too many friends when they can't control such language even in front of women...

Um...how old-fashioned is that? The thought you ought to 'control such language' before women?

I know women who swear like troopers.

[thethinker42]

Um...how old-fashioned is that? The thought you ought to 'control such language' before women?

I know women who swear like troopers.

*raises hand* I married a sailor because we speak the same language. I know when to tone it down, and don't use certain words in certain situations, but I swear. A lot.

I find it more offensive when someone feels that my gender should dictate how they behave around me.

[MrWrite]

So do I lol. I guess that stems from my upbringing. I was always taught it isn't polite to swear in front of women...sometimes I forget that as my wife will testify...;)

[Cassiopeia]

Years ago I worked with this guy called Derek. Literally every other word was "fuck" this and "cunt" that. He was the most foul mouthed person I ever met. Though in his case I think the language was a sign of weakness and very limited vocabulary. So yes people like that do exist. Though they are pretty rare. Also they tend not to have too many friends when they can't control such language even in front of women.

This was in the UK, wasn't it? ;)

[calley]

I'm not a fan. Since I write YA and MG, swears can get parents and librarians up in arms. Unless I was writing a story where the presence of strong language was part of one of my main themes, I'd just dodge 'em: no need to detract from the actual message to make a point I don't care about. I've never found my writing less strong or natural due to a lack of swears.

[Keyan]

I'm not a fan. Since I write YA and MG, swears can get parents and librarians up in arms. Unless I was writing a story where the presence of strong language was part of one of my main themes, I'd just dodge 'em: no need to detract from the actual message to make a point I don't care about. I've never found my writing less strong or natural due to a lack of swears.

I've been wondering about this. I write YA, and these kids, when not in the presence of adults, would normally use fuck not as a swear but for emphasis and punctuation. As in:

"It's so fucking hot, we're going to need one hella lot of soda"
"Fuck, dude, who's going to carry all that up to the third floor?"

And so on. At the moment, I'm compromising with "fricking" or "freaking."

[Izz]

And so on. At the moment, I'm compromising with "fricking" or "freaking."That kinda runs the risk of sounding cheesy though, doesn't it?

If you want to avoid swears, maybe:

"Dude, it's so hot we're going to need one hella lot of soda"
"Dude! Who's gonna carry all that up to the third floor?"

[Cyia]

I'm not a fan. Since I write YA and MG, swears can get parents and librarians up in arms. Unless I was writing a story where the presence of strong language was part of one of my main themes, I'd just dodge 'em: no need to detract from the actual message to make a point I don't care about. I've never found my writing less strong or natural due to a lack of swears.


If you write to please a particular group of people because you're afraid they won't approve of the finished product, you're already sunk. (Ever read Catcher in the Rye? Old book, classic, compulsory reading in schools...)

[Roger J Carlson]

It just has less power. Hence why "frack" (hello Battlestar Galactica) and all those silly replacement words always seem so stupid to me. Swearing is probably one of the hardest things to get right in speculative fiction, actually, since it's so idiosyncratic. Actually, Science Fiction is a little different because it's reasonable to assume that some future society will have different swear words. Have swear words changed in the last two hundred years? You bet they have. Why not two hundred years in the future?

Swear words are totally arbitrary and cultural. So made-up swear words sound really dumb, and someone who doesn't even speak english saying "Fuck!" would be, uh, unlikely.Why? Up-thread are people who swear in Polish, Chinese, French, and German. Why wouldn't a non-English speaker say "fuck"?

[dpaterso]

I kicked the thread to TIO this morning when it became obvious that the content no longer had anything to do with Novels forum but had festered into a "Look at me, I'm cussing!" carbuncle. It's pretty obvious what got the thread closed. PM me if you have any problems with this, or are too thick to take a hint.

-Derek

[Birol]

And be grateful that Derek was online instead of me. :e2teeth:

[dpaterso]

After some judicious editing (in which some gratuitously vulgar posts got dropped, along with posts that quoted said posts, so sorry) the thread's open again for discussion and returned to Novels forum.

Keep the conversation on topic, please. "Joke" posts that push the thread off-topic may be nuked. Ditto protests about "We're writers, we can use whatever words we want!" -- duuuh, yeah, got that. Re-read the first post before replying.

-Derek

[Dawnstorm]

I've used that four-lettered beasty before. Heck I still use it. In fiction.

But, aside from the idea of "showing character," is the word @#$% (can I say it? Okay I'm going to say it. Watch out--) fuck a sign of weakness in writing? Is it ever REALLY needed?

Even for character? Aren't there other clever ways to show character?

I notice myself using it to cover up my own insecurities in weak sentences. I wrote this the other day in CH 3 of my WIP:

[The world was my fucking gazelle]

take out the curse and, I came to realize, not only is the SENTENCE lame, but the paragraph leading there is also pretty much a dead-end, cheesy idea.

I'll forgo talking about how I seem to have lost access to my subconscious in this story, rendering it lame (that's something I'll have to work out alone).

But I think I'm going to have to use that search and destroy, er, replace function for this bad mother (shut yo mouth).

Are there other ways to show character?

Well, you can have your character use the word, but have your narrator avoid saying it outright (never quoting the character directly, or continually censoring it ["The world was my f--ing gazelle].) But you'll need to realise that this characterises both your character and your narrator (and - possibly - the fictionalised audience the narrator addresses).

But if you have your character not say fuck, you have a different character. "Fuck" isn't only a swear word; it's part of folk poetry. They even insert it into words for effect. It's probably one of the most versatile words in English. ;)

As you have discovered, in "The world was my fucking gazelle," the "fucking" is vital. It gives the metaphor a kind of playfulness the fuck-less version does not have.

"The world was my gazelle." Gracile, fleet of foot, and a tasty snack for a pride of lions? To my mind, the "fucking" adds excitement, and the excitement is contagious, which means that I'm way more forgiving about the cheesy metaphor.

Also, the "fucking" - to me - foregrounds the rhythm of the sentence. It's like a two-step prelude to the gazelle's leap:

fucking..gazelle
..1..2..and..hop

See what I mean?

If you're going to wonder what is really needed you'll never write again, because you can always "write it differently". You can always "write around it". Nothing's ever "really needed".

Knowing the words you want to use and using them is never a sign of weakness. Bad taste, perhaps, but not weakness. (About taste I say, better "bad but yours" than "good but theirs". ;) ). Knowing the words you want to use but looking for replacements to please "the reader", though... (Here, my attitude is less clear. "Weak but rich" is not really worse than "strong but poor". It's a matter of priorities.)

Gist of my post? "Fuck" = versatile part of folk poetry. Has transcended swearing long ago. (Not that swearing wouldn't be an artform in itself - one I'm lousy at - but that's another topic...)

[seun]

I once heard an extremely funny dissertation on the word. The narrator used a straight lecture-type voice enumerating all the different uses for "fuck". It's a noun, a verb, an adjective, and an adverb. It can be used to show anger, delight, anxiety, ecstasy, frustration, in fact, almost any emotion.
But this got me to thinking that its very flexibility makes it a weak word. When it means so many things, it doesn't really mean anything.

I'd argue the opposite. If the word has that many meanings and can be used with that many inflections, surely that adds to its strength and its ability.

[Roger J Carlson]

I'd argue the opposite. If the word has that many meanings and can be used with that many inflections, surely that adds to its strength and its ability.I think that any other word used with such frequency and to replace so many other words would be considered cartoonish and weak prose. But because it's the F-bomb, it's considered edgy and hip.

[maestrowork]

You don't have to use swear words just because your character would in real life. There's lots of ways your character isn't true to real life. Maybe you never show him once going to the bathroom. Yet you wouldn't say your character is less "true" to himself just because you don't include showing him going to the bathroom in your novel. Suppose you want to write a middle school level book that includes gangsters? Couldn't you write the gangsters believably without including the word fuck? Or do we have that word in all children's books now too?

If the bowel movement is important to the plot or character development, then why would you NOT write it? But if it's just a mundane fact of life that people go to bathroom (or eat, sleep, pick their noses, whatever) then of course you don't write it.

Same with dialogue. If the dialogue is not important to the story or character development, then of course don't include it.

But if it is important, including the occasional swear words, then it's silly to "work around them." Who are you offending? Your own muse?

[maestrowork]

I'm not a fan. Since I write YA and MG, swears can get parents and librarians up in arms. Unless I was writing a story where the presence of strong language was part of one of my main themes, I'd just dodge 'em: no need to detract from the actual message to make a point I don't care about. I've never found my writing less strong or natural due to a lack of swears.

Not necessarily. I've talked to high school teachers and librarians and I've voiced my concern about having [appropriate] swear words in my book, including the c-word, and they ALWAYS told me that it's not a problem, if the story calls for them. They always told me their kids at school read all kind of stuff from classics to popular fiction, YA or what not, and swear words are not usually a problem. Subject matters and excessive sex and violence may be.

Again, we as writers must make our decisions on what types of story to tell, and what kind of characters are in them. Chances are none of your characters swear under any circumstances -- that's fine, if that's your decision. We need to understand our target audiences, too, and what is appropriate to them. However, if we're censoring our stories and characters simply because we, the writers, are uncomfortable with these words, then I think it's intellectually dishonest.

[maestrowork]

I think that any other word used with such frequency and to replace so many other words would be considered cartoonish and weak prose. But because it's the F-bomb, it's considered edgy and hip.

There are many words that are used in great frequency, but that doesn't mean they're always weak. I don't think "fuck" is a cartoonish or weak word; but it depends on how you use it, when you use it, and what kind of story you're telling. I think it's a wrong conclusion to say that by using such a universal word, the prose must be weak, or the character must lack intelligence or something. Stephen King writes some potent, strong proses and characters, and he doesn't shy from the word.

Sometimes, using such a word, especially during unexpected circumstances, show the strength of the writer/character because they don't shy away from it. They are not afraid of it. They're worried if they're going to offend someone. That's nothing weak about using an objectionable word when it's the right word (see my example of the c-word in Atonement, which I think is a literary gem -- nothing weak about Ian McEwan's prose).

[Roger J Carlson]

There are many words that are used in great frequency, but that doesn't mean they're always weak. I don't think "fuck" is a cartoonish or weak word; but it depends on how you use it, when you use it, and what kind of story you're telling. I think it's a wrong conclusion to say that by using such a universal word, the prose must be weak, or the character must lack intelligence or something. Stephen King writes some potent, strong proses and characters, and he doesn't shy from the word. I didn't say anything about the character's or the writer's intelligence. I also didn't say "fuck" is cartoonish, although I do believe its overuse is weak. I did, however, suggest that any other words used with that frequency would be considered cartoonish. Someone in this thread complained about "frackin" in Battlestar Galactica. If you wrote a character that said "frackin" in every other sentence, people would accuse the author of dishonesty for flinching from the "real" word.

Sometimes, using such a word, especially during unexpected circumstances, show the strength of the writer/character because they don't shy away from it. They are not afraid of it. They're worried if they're going to offend someone. That's nothing weak about using an objectionable word when it's the right word (see my example of the c-word in Atonement, which I think is a literary gem -- nothing weak about Ian McEwan's prose) (my bolding).

So, as I said, the real strength is that it is a naughty word -- the F-bomb -- and not because it's especially strong in and of itself.

[rhymegirl]

I truly feel this particular swear word works much better if used sparingly.

The other night I was in the dining room; the TV was on in the living room. I don't know which movie was on, but here's the thing. Two teenagers in the movie were having a discussion. They both used the f word in every single sentence.

I wasn't shocked by this. I just found it annoying and repetitive. After a while it just bugged me so much I had to go into the living room and change the channel.

If this word becomes part of someone's vocabulary, so much so that it appears in every sentence, it's a real turn-off.

Now let's say from the other room, I happened to be listening to the TV and the two characters were talking. They're just talking and then all of a sudden one of them says: "Shut the fuck up!" That would have had a certain impact. It would have gotten my attention. I would have gone into the room just to see what was going on in the movie.

But use the word too much and it's just a turn-off.

[maestrowork]

So, as I said, the real strength is that it is a naughty word -- the F-bomb -- and not because it's especially strong in and of itself.

It's not a naughty word if it's the right word. I think you're passing TOO much judgment on a word. We are writers. We use words when they're useful. It is strong when it's used in the right context at the right time. Words have impact, and that include swear words. "Fuck" is no more weaker than "and" or "but" if it's the right word. And "fuck" is not a naughty word when its specific meaning is conveyed in the right context and circumstances: "Shut the fuck up" is very different than "shut up" in voice, rhythm, tone, meaning, and intensity.

When a writer overuse these words, or when they are not used correctly, then they lose their meanings and they become weak.

Personally I don't think a writer should categorically eliminate any of these words as if they were plagues. Choose your material and characters, yes. But to say outright that "I will never use the f word" is somewhat extreme to me. And to say such a word is a sign of weakness is to oversimplify everything and disregard the nature of fiction writing.

[Roger J Carlson]

It's not a naughty word if it's the right word. I think you're passing TOO much judgment on a word. We are writers. We use words when they're useful.I'm not passing judgment, Ray. And I'm not arguing against its use, simply its over-use. I'm also suggesting that if a writer has peppered his or her work with the word, the writer should at least consider the possibility that it's been over-used, that it is in fact NOT the right word in every case, and that he or she might be using simply for its "coolness" factor.

Surely it's acceptable to suggest such self-examination.

[scarletpeaches]

I'm not passing judgment, Ray. And I'm not arguing against its use, simply its over-use. I'm also suggesting that if a writer has peppered his or her work with the word, the writer should at least consider the possibility that it's been over-used, that it is in fact NOT the right word in every case, and that he or she might be using simply for its "coolness" factor.

Surely it's acceptable to suggest such self-examination.

Would you say that of any other word, or is it just that the f-word goes against your own personal taste?

[ChaosTitan]

I'm also suggesting that if a writer has peppered his or her work with the word, the writer should at least consider the possibility that it's been over-used, that it is in fact NOT the right word in every case, and that he or she might be using simply for its "coolness" factor.


I admit to counting once, because I was insanely curious and another thread on this very subject prompted me to do so. I used variations of the f-bomb thirty-eight times in TDTD. In the six books I wrote previously, you could probably find as many spread through all of them totaled together (used sparingly, in other words).

So I'd like to think my "overuse" of the word has more to do with the voice of my first-person narrator, her particular upbringing, and her need to use harsh language as a defense mechanism, than because it was "cool."

But that's me. :)

[Roger J Carlson]

Would you say that of any other word, or is it just that the f-word goes against your own personal taste?I would say that for any word. That's one reason I wrote my Word Frequency Counter (http://www.rogerjcarlson.com/WritingHelp/WordFrequencyV2.zip). I fall into the trap of using some words repeatedly when another would do as well or perhaps better.

[maestrowork]

I'm not passing judgment, Ray. And I'm not arguing against its use, simply its over-use.

then we're in agreement.

Overuse of anything is no good. Not just swear words.

[scarletpeaches]

I would say that for any word. That's one reason I wrote my Word Frequency Counter. I fall into the trap of using some words repeatedly when another would do as well or perhaps better.

Fair enough. I mean, we are in a thread discussing the word 'fuck' after all.

(Might make use of your word counter...I use 'well' and 'so' too much. Far more than the word which is the subject of this thread).

[Roger J Carlson]

then we're in agreement.We are indeed.

[scarletpeaches]

I love you guys.

[maestrowork]

I admit to counting once, because I was insanely curious and another thread on this very subject prompted me to do so. I used variations of the f-bomb thirty-eight times in TDTD. In the six books I wrote previously, you could probably find as many spread through all of them totaled together (used sparingly, in other words).

In The Pacific Between, the narrator swears but he also knows when not to swear. He swears with his best friends because that's how the boys are around each other. He swears with the bartender. But he doesn't swear around other people, much, including the women he adores, or around children. And as he becomes more comfortable with an old friend (who always swears), he loosens up, too. Any difference, the character wouldn't feel authentic. Not to me, and certainly not to the readers.

So there is a rhyme and reason for everything and I went by the character and what felt right for him. I didn't mathematically say, "well, I've used 35 fucks in 200 pages, maybe it's time to trim them." There isn't some kind of quota here. I look at the context, the story, the plot, the situations, and the characters and determine which word is right for them, and that include any "appropriate" swear words.

[Roger J Carlson]

Fair enough. I mean, we are in a thread discussing the word 'fuck' after all.

(Might make use of your word counter...I use 'well' and 'so' too much. Far more than the word which is the subject of this thread).I use "suddenly" so often, your head would spin. Fortunately, my Adverb Highlighter (http://www.rogerjcarlson.com/WritingHelp/AdverbHighlighter2.zip)catches that too.

[Roger J Carlson]

(Might make use of your word counter...I use 'well' and 'so' too much. Far more than the word which is the subject of this thread).BTW, if you know there are words you over-use or miss-use, the Passive Word Highlighter (http://www.rogerjcarlson.com/WritingHelp/PassiveWordHighlighter3.zip)will mass-highlight a whole list of words that you give it.

[CaroGirl]

I have a problem with another four-letter word: just. I just use just so much it just hurts when I reread it. Why? Why do I do it?

[Roger J Carlson]

I have a problem with another four-letter word: just. I just use just so much it just hurts when I reread it. Why? Why do I do it?My most miss-used four-letter word is "that". It gets so bad that I can remove more than half of the times that I use it, however many times that happens to be.

[Roger J Carlson]

Personally I don't think a writer should categorically eliminate any of these words as if they were plagues. Choose your material and characters, yes. But to say outright that "I will never use the f word" is somewhat extreme to me. And to say such a word is a sign of weakness is to oversimplify everything and disregard the nature of fiction writing.I think this is highly genre-dependant. I think it's perfectly acceptable to never use the f-word in Christian fiction. I think it's also acceptable to never use it in MG or YA, although some writers do. You can even get through a "cozy" mystery without it, but probably not the hard-bitten detective or thriller type. And you definitely couldn't write erotica without some use of it. Context is everything.

[maestrowork]

I have a problem with another four-letter word: just. I just use just so much it just hurts when I reread it. Why? Why do I do it?

That's mine. Don't steal mine! That's just wrong.

[maestrowork]

I think this is highly genre-dependant. I think it's perfectly acceptable to never use the f-word in Christian fiction. I think it's also acceptable to never use it in MG or YA, although some writers do. You can even get through a "cozy" mystery without it, but probably not the hard-bitten detective or thriller type. And you definitely couldn't write erotica without some use of it. Context is everything.

Even within genres there is no absolute. I'm sure someone have dropped the F-bomb in some Christian fiction. And I'm very certain YA, at least, have swear words (maybe not F, but certain S). And you can certainly use them in mystery, although you also can NOT use them. MG and children's books might be the only exception -- then again, you're unlikely be writing about hard criminals or New York pimps in those genres. And obviously, not every New York cop swears either.

Definitely know your audience and material and characters, but again, I caution about saying "never."

[BigWords]

I went away and thought about this thread (yes, I am incredibly pathetic).
Would the Unclefucker song in the South Park movie have been the same WTF moment for the audience if the lyrics had been altered in any way? That is without mentioning a certain book (http://www.savoy.abel.co.uk/HTML/mofo.html) by David Britton (http://www.savoy.abel.co.uk/HTML/horofitb.html) from Savoy Books.

[scarletpeaches]

Oh thanks. Now I'm going out this evening with Unclefucker as my earworm.

[The Lonely One]

Oh thanks. Now I'm going out this evening with Unclefucker as my earworm.

Hmm perhaps proof of its effectiveness in this instance.

[icerose]

I don't personally use the F-word and how it's used in many movies and books today it has lost all meaning. It's *Bleep* you, mother *Bleeper* I can *Bleepin* walk here if I *Bleepin* want to. And the entire dialog stream from EVERYONE is that way. They don't have a single whole sentence without it. It drives me nuts. It's like it's taken over their entire vocabulary.

I have no respect for anything that's written that way and it's a major turnoff. If it is used sparingly it really can be used a rather powerful tool. Outside of that, it's just sprinkling in the trash imo.

[Canotila]

I don't personally use the F-word and how it's used in many movies and books today it has lost all meaning. It's *Bleep* you, mother *Bleeper* I can *Bleepin* walk here if I *Bleepin* want to. And the entire dialog stream from EVERYONE is that way. They don't have a single whole sentence without it. It drives me nuts. It's like it's taken over their entire vocabulary.

I have no respect for anything that's written that way and it's a major turnoff. If it is used sparingly it really can be used a rather powerful tool. Outside of that, it's just sprinkling in the trash imo.

I feel the same way as you, as a reader (and movie viewer). When I encounter it, it tends to jar me out of the story. Especially in fantasy. A little bit like finding a nugget of dog doo in your ice cream.

Not to say it should never be used, but as a reader I will put down books with gratuitous F-bombs. In most instances where I have encountered it, it is used as a crutch to support weak writing. The best written scenes I have read that instill the most shock, horror, and sadness in me have never relied on them to express the gravity of what is happening. They didn't need to.

[seun]

A little bit like finding a nugget of dog doo in your ice cream.


And the winnner for the worst mental picture goes to...

[CaroGirl]

And the winnner for the worst mental picture goes to...
I don't know about that. A quick glance at your current avatar and I thought your head was a bum with light shining out of it. That's not a pretty picture either.

[seun]

A quick glance at your current avatar and I thought your head was a bum with light shining out of it.

I didn't come here to be insulted. :D

[seun]

I have no respect for anything that's written that way and it's a major turnoff. If it is used sparingly it really can be used a rather powerful tool. Outside of that, it's just sprinkling in the trash imo.

What if it was in a book or film featuring characters who would talk in such a way in reality? On my way home from work yesterday, I passed a mother walking with her daughter. The mother was early twenties, the daughter about five. As I passed them, the daughter was a few feet behind, running a stick over a low brick wall; the mother turned and shouted:

"Will you fucking well stop fucking about?"

A character like that in fiction would speak in exactly the same ugly way so while it's not pleasant to read or see (or walk past for that matter), it is truthful to how some people are.

[Cranky]

What if it was in a book or film featuring characters who would talk in such a way in reality? On my way home from work yesterday, I passed a mother walking with her daughter. The mother was early twenties, the daughter about five. As I passed them, the daughter was a few feet behind, running a stick over a low brick wall; the mother turned and shouted:

"Will you fucking well stop fucking about?"

A character like that in fiction would speak in exactly the same ugly way so while it's not pleasant to read or see (or walk past for that matter), it is truthful to how some people are.

I agree. Whenever this subject comes up, I can't help but think of Joe Pesci's character in Goodfellas. F-bombs almost every other word, but that was characterization in and of itself. It didn't say nice things about the character, but it was very effective. I don't see how it would be any different in a novel.

[maestrowork]

I agree. fiction doesn't have to be pleasant. Characters don't have to be nice. In fact, if that potty-mouth mother bothers you, GREAT! Maybe she should bother you.

If we put down a book because a character says "fuck" or do something nasty then we may reevaluate why we read fiction in the first place. There's nothing wrong with reading to escape, but don't expect every piece of fiction be escapism. Sometimes fiction reflects reality, and they can be awesome.

We're free to read whatever we please and if we don't want to read about characters who drop the F-bomb, then by all means don't read them. But like everything with writing, there is no absolute. If you want to write about characters who swear, by all means, do. That alone does NOT make you a weak writer. Trying to censor the characters make you a weak writer.

[CaroGirl]

I agree. fiction doesn't have to be pleasant. Characters don't have to be nice. In fact, if that potty-mouth mother bothers you, GREAT! Maybe she should bother you.
I think it's even better to make the profane mother the strongest, most caring character in a story. Going against type can actually be a powerful device.

[BigWords]

The "profane mother" type was used as a back-story for Jay in the View Askew films of Kevin Smith. It explains a lot about Jay.

[Canotila]

I agree. fiction doesn't have to be pleasant. Characters don't have to be nice. In fact, if that potty-mouth mother bothers you, GREAT! Maybe she should bother you.

If we put down a book because a character says "fuck" or do something nasty then we may reevaluate why we read fiction in the first place. There's nothing wrong with reading to escape, but don't expect every piece of fiction be escapism. Sometimes fiction reflects reality, and they can be awesome.

We're free to read whatever we please and if we don't want to read about characters who drop the F-bomb, then by all means don't read them. But like everything with writing, there is no absolute. If you want to write about characters who swear, by all means, do. That alone does NOT make you a weak writer. Trying to censor the characters make you a weak writer.

I tend to put down books that use the word because, in my experience, they tend to be badly written anyway. Not to say that all of them are, but that has been my experience.

That being said, I adore Holly Black's book, Valiant, and if I remember correctly her characters used that word. By the time they used it though, I already cared about them and what was happening to them, and she used it sparingly so I kept reading. The fact that I can't quite remember if they used it or not speaks to the strength of her writing, because it isn't the main thing I remember about her story.

The only movie I can think of with that word that I loved was Gran Torino. I'll never watch it again because it made me cry and I don't like feeling sad, but it was a good movie. Those two are definitely the exceptions in my experience, hence why I never said that word should never be used. ;)

[Roger J Carlson]

I think it's even better to make the profane mother the strongest, most caring character in a story. Going against type can actually be a powerful device.

The "profane mother" type was used as a back-story for Jay in the View Askew films of Kevin Smith. It explains a lot about Jay. It can be overdone, though.

I sure get tired of the smart-alec-little-brother-potty-mouth and the sweet-little-old-lady-potty-mouth in movies. Shock value wears off after a few of these, and it just becomes trite.

[maestrowork]

I have read many great novels with that word, among others. So I guess sometimes our experiences jade us.

[Roger J Carlson]

What if it was in a book or film featuring characters who would talk in such a way in reality? On my way home from work yesterday, I passed a mother walking with her daughter. The mother was early twenties, the daughter about five. As I passed them, the daughter was a few feet behind, running a stick over a low brick wall; the mother turned and shouted:

"Will you fucking well stop fucking about?"

A character like that in fiction would speak in exactly the same ugly way so while it's not pleasant to read or see (or walk past for that matter), it is truthful to how some people are."But it really happened that way" is no excuse in fiction.

Again, I'm not advocating for never using profanity, however, just because people over-use it doesn't necessarily mean it should be over-used in fiction.

People use all sorts of null sounds -- um, er, ya know -- that we leave out of dialog because it becomes tedious and distracts from the story.

Perhaps an even better example is "like".

For the last twenty years or so, people (especially young people) have been using "like" in nearly every sentence: "He was like..." and "I was like...". We've all heard it. It's like soooo annoying.

But even if you were writing a character that talked that way, I would become tedious to write all the "likes" into your dialog. A sprinkling here and there would give the flavor of the character without the mind-numbing repetition.

Used to excess, "fuck" becomes just another null sound and actually detracts from the story.

[Roger J Carlson]

I have read many great novels with that word, among others. So I guess sometimes our experiences jade us.I have read and enjoyed many novels that use that word and others. I don't really see a disparity between reading them and not using them in my own writing. There are a lot of stories that I can read but not write.

[maestrowork]

I have read and enjoyed many novels that use that word and others. I don't really see a disparity between reading them and not using them in my own writing. There are a lot of stories that I can read but not write.

Like I said, we all must make our own choices when writing. I don't write fantasy, but it doesn't mean fantasy sucks or no one should write fantasies. Some people decide to write for children only, and that's great.

There is no right or wrong. The fact that there are many great novels that have "fuck" in it means it can be done well -- that's my point in my response to Canotila.

What I am also saying is, if someone chooses to write a story about characters who swear but instead they make the characters NOT swear or work around it somehow (such as writing "she cursed"), then it's also a legit decision, but to me, it falls short of being honest with the character. To me, that writer may as well write something else. To me, there's no half-hearted attempt. No compromise.

An analogy would be if you decide to go parachuting, you will have to jump out of the plane. There's no "something in between." Or else you must choose not to go parachuting, which is perfectly fine as well.

[Roger J Carlson]

Like I said, we all must make our own choices when writing. I don't write fantasy, but it doesn't mean fantasy sucks or no one should write fantasies. Some people decide to write for children only, and that's great.

There is no right or wrong. The fact that there are many great novels that have "fuck" in it means it can be done well -- that's my point in my response to Canotila. I should have added "too". I was agreeing with you. I don't always disagree with you Ray, however fun that may be. :)

What I am also saying is, if someone chooses to write a story about characters who swear but instead they make the characters NOT swear or work around it somehow (such as writing "she cursed"), then it's also a legit decision, but to me, it falls short of being honest with the character. To me, that writer may as well write something else. To me, there's no half-hearted attempt. No compromise.That's one of the things I admire about you. In some ways, I think writing is your religion.

But there are others of us for whom such honesty is not the most important value in our writing. I'd still like to think there's a place for us and the kind of stories we want to write.

[Ken]

... most old movies have zero cussing in them like Brute Force, from 1947. Staring the immortal Lancaster, Bickford and Croyn, the flick is set in a prison and portrays convicts. Give the movie a watch, or that other classic prison flick I Am A Fugitive From A Chain Gang from 1932 staring Paul (one of the best actors ever) Muni, and see if you still feel this way:

What I am also saying is, if someone chooses to write a story about characters who swear but instead they make the characters NOT swear or work around it somehow (such as writing "she cursed"), then it's also a legit decision, but to me, it falls short of being honest with the character. To me, that writer may as well write something else. To me, there's no half-hearted attempt. No compromise.

(Drive-by post. Topic is not one I can rationally handle, as demonstrated back aways ;-)

[maestrowork]

Thanks.

I think it does depend on the context and target audiences. I mean, if you write a story about New York street gangs but the target audience is 8-10 years old, then obviously you wouldn't go with complete authenticity. You will still strive to put some realism in it but, to get the message across, but in that case, the story trumps everything and you wouldn't want to introduce swear words to 8-year-old kids.

Probably other genres have similar issues... epic fantasies, for example. You wouldn't want your Middle Earth gnomes to scream the f-bomb either. Or in your example, they have the change it to "frak" in Battlestar Galactica because of FCC regulations, etc. They want to make sure we know these people swear, but they have to "get away" with it somehow. To me, that's a compromise and in a way kind of fun. We know they're swearing and we know what is the real "word" they are supposed to use. Is that dishonest? Not really because you don't they will use the actual word if it's shown on HBO, but they also didn't just let Starbuck say, "I'm going to blow your gosh-darn-it head off."

I write realistic drama (or as close to realistic as I can) and my target audience is adults (at least 16 or 17 years old) so I don't have the kind of restrictions or trepidation with language. However, with my WIP I chose not to use many swear words for various reasons, including the fact that the characters really don't use it unless under extreme stress. I did have one, because that's the exact word that character would use -- I've tried to use other words and they were simply not right for the scene and the character.

[maestrowork]

... most old movies have zero cursing in them like Brute Force, from 1947. Staring the immortal Lancaster, Bickford and Croyn, the flick is set in a prison and portrays convicts. Give the movie a watch, or that other classic prison flick I Am A Fugitive From A Chain Gang from 1932 staring Paul (one of the best actors ever) Muni, and see if you still feel this way:



(Drive-by post. Topic is not one I can rationally handle, as demonstrated back aways ;-)


Different times. Now we look at these movies as dated or a thing of the past. I mean, they used to have white actors in black or Asian makeup to play black or Asian characters, too. They have their places in history, given the constraints they had back then. But time has changed. I look at a James Cagney gangster movie and I'd tell myself, "It doesn't reflect the time and place and characters of that time, but it's a movie made FOR the audiences of that time."

Also, I do take the restrictions into consideration. I know they can't swear on ER or NYPD Blues because it's on network TV. And that's okay. I can suspend a certain disbelief when the worst word a character could say was "damn." But when I'm watching The Sopranos on HBO, I would actually be displeased if none of those mobsters swear. What kind of fantasy world would that be?

[NeuroFizz]

Used to excess, "fuck" becomes just another null sound and actually detracts from the story.
Roger said fuck. I'm telling Mom.

Profane are the images created by words. Words themselves can be interchanged so a most objectionable (profane?) passage can contain 100% acceptable words for even the most tender of youth-ears. And a good dose of notorious words can create an image that is nowhere near objectionable (profane?).

I respect Roger's choice of words and images he uses in his writing. Same with David Britton.

[Ken]

... I still think authors and directors have the ability to set initial constraints on dialogue at the outset of their works and throughout them and that readers and viewers will accept these constraints and not even be aware of the absence of certain words or the parameters that have been set, just as they do with ER as you mention. But maybe not. It may be a Pandora's Box, and once those words are out of the box in fiction there's no turning back and one must use them, or else seem inauthentic to readers, at least in the realm of realistic fiction. It isn't my genre and I leave those decisions to those whose genre it is. Every writer must make the decision that best suit their work, and also their own individual perspectives and beliefs. To each their own, and let us support and encourage one another however different our outlooks and paths :-)

[Keyan]

Mine is "carefully" - can't count how many times my characters "carefully" do something or the other. Not only is it frequent, it's an adv*rb!

[Cassiopeia]

What if it was in a book or film featuring characters who would talk in such a way in reality? On my way home from work yesterday, I passed a mother walking with her daughter. The mother was early twenties, the daughter about five. As I passed them, the daughter was a few feet behind, running a stick over a low brick wall; the mother turned and shouted:

"Will you fucking well stop fucking about?"As a parent, I find that kind of language towards a child, abusive. It's not right.

As for using that as an excuse for the way movies and books are using the F word, I don't find the argument plausible.

In a mobster setting, yeah...I'd expect it. If the movie is about an abusive mother I'd not like it but I could see it true to life. But like I said, as a mother, no one should be treated like that and most assuredly not a child. Perhaps if we stop condoning such behaviours as acceptable it would stop.

[maestrowork]

In a mobster setting, yeah...I'd expect it. If the movie is about an abusive mother I'd not like it but I could see it true to life. But like I said, as a mother, no one should be treated like that and most assuredly not a child. Perhaps if we stop condoning such behaviours as acceptable it would stop.

The idea of fiction... at least to me... is that not everything has to be politically correct or nice or agreeable. It's supposed to make us think. And thus a potty-mouth mother swearing at her child would make you think, "this is not right." Then the story and the character have done their job. Fiction is about conflict and characters who may not be your friends in your normal circle. They may be thugs and gangsters or murderers or potty-mouth parent. The idea is the story doesn't pass judgment on them -- it only presents them as they are -- we the readers do.

[icerose]

"But it really happened that way" is no excuse in fiction.

Again, I'm not advocating for never using profanity, however, just because people over-use it doesn't necessarily mean it should be over-used in fiction.

People use all sorts of null sounds -- um, er, ya know -- that we leave out of dialog because it becomes tedious and distracts from the story.

Perhaps an even better example is "like".

For the last twenty years or so, people (especially young people) have been using "like" in nearly every sentence: "He was like..." and "I was like...". We've all heard it. It's like soooo annoying.

But even if you were writing a character that talked that way, I would become tedious to write all the "likes" into your dialog. A sprinkling here and there would give the flavor of the character without the mind-numbing repetition.

Used to excess, "fuck" becomes just another null sound and actually detracts from the story.

Exactly. There's more than one word to get a picture across. You don't need to use the F-word every other word just to tell us these guys are low-life gangsters who think they own the world. There's more to a character than the filth that spews out of their mouths.

A gang banger killing a family for an initiation would tell me far more about that character and how vile he is than hearing the f-bomb being fit in as much as the writer can manage.

There's more to fiction than the F-word. It drives me absolutely nuts when writers forget that and it really shows. Chances are if the movie is suffering from excessive language high chances it's not the only thing it's suffering from.

[icerose]

... I still think authors and directors have the ability to set initial constraints on dialogue at the outset of their works and throughout them and that readers and viewers will accept these constraints and not even be aware of the absence of certain words or the parameters that have been set, just as they do with ER as you mention. But maybe not. It may be a Pandora's Box, and once those words are out of the box in fiction there's no turning back and one must use them, or else seem inauthentic to readers, at least in the realm of realistic fiction. It isn't my genre and I leave those decisions to those whose genre it is. Every writer must make the decision that best suit their work, and also their own individual perspectives and beliefs. To each their own, and let us support and encourage one another however different our outlooks and paths :-)

I have never once used that word in two actions scripts that were optioned, one being full of gangsters the other full of mobsters, I didn't use it in my horror either and no one batted an eyelash. No one mentioned it's absense or enjoyed it any less.

You can write with out it. *Gasp!* As you said, it's about setting up your world and your contraints from the onset and stick with it and no one even notices, they're too absorbed in a good story to stop and say "Gee, that guy isn't swearing enough, I don't buy it, psh, give me a potty mouth!"

[scarletpeaches]

I don't understand the view that we don't 'need' to use the word fuck.

I don't 'need' to use the word 'chair' or 'table' or 'door' in my novels but I do.

[Cassiopeia]

The idea of fiction... at least to me... is that not everything has to be politically correct or nice or agreeable. It's supposed to make us think. And thus a potty-mouth mother swearing at her child would make you think, "this is not right." Then the story and the character have done their job. Fiction is about conflict and characters who may not be your friends in your normal circle. They may be thugs and gangsters or murderers or potty-mouth parent. The idea is the story doesn't pass judgment on them -- it only presents them as they are -- we the readers do.I'm sorry, Ray...but that is not a potty-mouth mother. That's an abuser who speaks to their child that way.

I think as a society we have lowered the bar too low on some things. Now, if the movie or book has consequences for the mother who abuses her child/children like that, then...eeeeeeeehhhhhhh...okay.

I'm at odds about it, because we do need to know the truth but at what point are we showing the worst of society and not enough about the good and important values that keep us striving for the betterment of man and not the degradation of man. Ya know what I mean?

[scarletpeaches]

Who's to say what 'enough' of good is? Me, personally? I'm not here to preach. Or give societal guidelines.

I just write 'cause I like it, and if anyone ever pays to read my stuff, then great.

I'm aiming to reflect rather than guide.

[Cassiopeia]

Who's to say what 'enough' of good is? Me, personally? I'm not here to preach. Or give societal guidelines.

I just write 'cause I like it, and if anyone ever pays to read my stuff, then great.

I'm aiming to reflect rather than guide.SP, sweetie...why is it that I'm preaching because I feel a desire to see more stories that actually make a difference?

I'm not judging you for what you write, I bet it's really good and fun. I'm not writing any life altering fiction right now but I hope one day, I'll have expanded my talents to be able to.

I just have a very strong view as a mom. My mother verbally and physically abused me and I'm betting that mom, he spoke of does to. It breaks a child's heart and spirit.

I will leave the rest up to you all who have a bit thicker skin for this discussion. :)

[scarletpeaches]

No, I'm not saying you're preaching, what I meant was the notion we should write about 'good' people as opposed to 'bad'. Or that we should write about values which better man.

We can do that, yes, but it doesn't stop us writing about people who swear, or drink, or smoke, or kick puppies.

Heck, write both. It gives contrast.

[Cassiopeia]

No, I'm not saying you're preaching, what I meant was the notion we should write about 'good' people as opposed to 'bad'. Or that we should write about values which better man.

We can do that, yes, but it doesn't stop us writing about people who swear, or drink, or smoke, or kick puppies.

Heck, write both. It gives contrast.oh..no, I'm not advocating we not have bad people in our stories...that wouldn't be true to life. I'm saying that it's being overdone.

Sheesh, I'm not explaining myself very well. You and I have talked for years about how things that are over done and gratuitous really hacks us off.

...you know, I should come back to this when my head is on right. Just a very bad day on my end.

Don't mind me. ;)

....*screech* what? kick puppies too? Oh NOW that's just wrong!

[scarletpeaches]

What can I say? I'm a cat person.

[Cassiopeia]

What can I say? I'm a cat person.Oh, I'm totally a cat person, but come one, puppies are people too!

[Izz]

I don't understand the view that we don't 'need' to use the word fuck.Perhaps icerose was referring to the notion that's been repeated excessively (of course, i can't speak for icerose :), so this is entirely my opinion): that if we don't use the word with some characters then we're being dishonest to them. Which could imply that characters are built entirely around dialogue, or that writers who choose for characters not to swear are somehow not as good as writers who do.

I want to quote this again: it's about setting up your world and your contraints from the onset and stick with itEven if we're writing realistic fiction, we still set up the constraints of our world before we begin writing. If someone chooses that one of those constraints is not to swear on-screen/on-paper, then good for them. If another person chooses that their characters will swear profusely, then good for them. But just because someone chooses for their characters not to swear does not mean they are being dishonest to them. It just means they are working within the constraints they've set themselves. If the story is well-written and the characters well-developed (i.e. if they're a rotten gangster, what makes them rotten? surely things other than the language?), then people may not notice a lack of swearing. I know i certainly don't.

[scarletpeaches]

I once wrote a book with no swearing at all just to see if I could. It was crap. Not because of the lack of swearing, but because of my writing at that age.

So yes, I can do it. But now...I'm more interested in people with more fruity personality traits. Slightly edgy, a bit naughty.

It just bugs me, this suggestion that swearing = bad or not swearing = good.

Good/bad depends on how we use words, not the actual individual words we use.

A book stands or falls as a whole in my opinion. It's greater than the sum of its parts. The use of this word or that word doesn't make it bad. What the author does with every weapon in his armoury together does that.

Okay, who slipped the LSD in my drink?

[ORION]

One of my characters in LOTTERY was a potty mouth Vietnam vet. It wouldn't have worked if he'd said "oh darn!" or "frig!"
I counted - and the F word was used 48 times in 87,000 words.

That being said - in my next book the word is only used once in 100,000 words.
My characters determine what is said.

[scarletpeaches]

One of my characters in LOTTERY was a potty mouth Vietnam vet. It wouldn't have worked if he'd said "oh darn!" or "frig!"
I counted - and the F word was used 48 times in 87,000 words.

That being said - in my next book the word is only used once in 100,000 words.
My characters determine what is said.

Patricia, really! I am shocked. :eek:

I may have to read Lottery again...

[ORION]

My work here is done lol!

[maestrowork]

I'm sorry, Ray...but that is not a potty-mouth mother. That's an abuser who speaks to their child that way.

I think as a society we have lowered the bar too low on some things. Now, if the movie or book has consequences for the mother who abuses her child/children like that, then...eeeeeeeehhhhhhh...okay.

Who says it's okay?

I think you're missing my point. In fiction, this woman talked her child this way. It evokes a certain response from you. You believe it's abuse. You believe this person is an abuser. That's your immediate response.

Then later in the book you see that the woman has Tourette Syndrome, and "fuck" is really just a word she uses. It's not abuse, as the child thinks of it as just another word, like "boo." She is actually a devoting single mother who raises three kids on her own in the ghetto... she has a potty-mouth, but she doesn't abuse her children in anyway. Then do you still have that response about the woman? What do you think now?

That's the essence of fiction. Again, in fiction we portray all kinds of people: good, bad, evil, virtuous... So, just because the readers don't identify with a character or determine a behavior is wrong doesn't mean the character can't exist. After all, we read fiction about serial killers and rapists, too. If we only read about people we agree with, who appease our morals, then ... I don't know... we'd all be reading Winnie the Pooh.

[Cassiopeia]

Who says it's okay?

I think you're missing my point. In fiction, this woman talked her child this way. It evokes a certain response from you. You believe it's abuse. You believe this person is an abuser. That's your immediate response.

Then later in the book you see that the woman has Tourette Syndrome, and "fuck" is really just a word she uses. It's not abuse, as the child thinks of it as just another word, like "boo." She is actually a devoting single mother who raises three kids on her own in the ghetto... she has a potty-mouth, but she doesn't abuse her children in anyway. Then do you still have that response about the woman? What do you think now?

That's the essence of fiction. Again, in fiction we portray all kinds of people: good, bad, evil, virtuous... So, just because the readers don't identify with a character or determine a behavior is wrong doesn't mean the character can't exist. After all, we read fiction about serial killers and rapists, too. If we only read about people we agree with, who appease our morals, then ... I don't know... we'd all be reading Winnie the Pooh.And that's not what I'm advocating. I'm saying the scales are tipped too far in the overuse of the swear words and ...ack ...whatever.

I don't need to change anyone's mind.

[maestrowork]

You can write with out it. *Gasp!* As you said, it's about setting up your world and your contraints from the onset and stick with it and no one even notices, they're too absorbed in a good story to stop and say "Gee, that guy isn't swearing enough, I don't buy it, psh, give me a potty mouth!"

Just because they didn't complain doesn't necessarily mean you're doing your best. Not to say your stories aren't good. Just to me that when a mobster says, "Gosh darn it," it taxes my suspension of disbelief. Now, if your story and characters are so wonderful that you don't need the curse words, than good for you.

Meanwhile, millions will continue to read Stephen King's potty-mouth characters and comment on how realistic and authentic they are.

To each his/her own, I suppose.

[scarletpeaches]

Just for the record, I've never got my arse stuck in a tree trunk trying to steal some hunny.

[maestrowork]

And that's not what I'm advocating. I'm saying the scales are tipped too far in the overuse of the swear words and ...ack ...whatever.

I don't need to change anyone's mind.

I, as well as others, have already said that the overuse of anything, including language, is not a good thing.

We're not discussing this.

We're discussing the use of the word. Not the overuse of it. Just the fact that the word is used. Is it a sign of weakness?

It's like we're discussing merit of salt... then we keep getting stuck at talking about how too much salt is bad for you.

We're talking about salt. Not the overuse of salt.

The overuse of the word "that" is bad enough. We don't need to overuse "fuck."

It all depends on context, character, etc. etc. Like Patricia and I said, in our previous book our characters used it constantly -- that fits the character. It wouldn't have worked otherwise (at least according to the person who writes it). But in our respective WIPs, we hardly use it.

[kaitlin008]

It just bugs me, this suggestion that swearing = bad or not swearing = good.


That bothers me too. I actually can't think of a single person my age who I've spent any amount of time with and not heard swear. Sure, it maybe makes people sound kind of vulgar, but it doesn't make them bad people. And you can have a horrible person who never, ever swears.

I guess I'd just rather not feel like an author censored themselves or their characters.

[scarletpeaches]

I swear a lot. It doesn't make me a bad person. It just means when you heard me swear, I was angry or frustrated or tired or ill.

[Cassiopeia]

I, as well as others, have already said that the overuse of anything, including language, is not a good thing.

We're not discussing this.

We're discussing the use of the word. Not the overuse of it. Just the fact that the word is used. Is it a sign of weakness?

It's like we're discussing merit of salt... then we keep getting stuck at talking about how too much salt is bad for you.

We're talking about salt. Not the overuse of salt.

The overuse of the word "that" is bad enough. We don't need to overuse "fuck."

It all depends on context, character, etc. etc. Like Patricia and I said, in our previous book our characters used it constantly -- that fits the character. It wouldn't have worked otherwise (at least according to the person who writes it). But in our respective WIPs, we hardly use it.Ray, it is part of the discussion but hey, you carry on with your own thoughts and ideas.

[maestrowork]

Wow.

Seriously, let me bring up the discussion again:

I'm sorry, Ray...but that is not a potty-mouth mother. That's an abuser who speaks to their child that way.

I think as a society we have lowered the bar too low on some things. Now, if the movie or book has consequences for the mother who abuses her child/children like that, then...eeeeeeeehhhhhhh...okay.

I'm at odds about it, because we do need to know the truth but at what point are we showing the worst of society and not enough about the good and important values that keep us striving for the betterment of man and not the degradation of man. Ya know what I mean?

Am I missing something? Are we still talking about the same thing, or have we just derailed into a discussion about desensitization? Have anyone actually say that "it's perfectly okay for the mother to talk to the kid that way"?

My assertion though, is that "fuck" elicits certain response from people, in certain context. Just as you immediately label this woman as an abuser, others may think of her as just a potty-mouth mother. Some may believe the woman is an abuser, and some may think of her as uneducated, etc., since the child may not even understand the language. My point is that that's the essence of fiction -- to provoke and make us ponder, to leave it up to us to make judgment, instead of censoring and sheltering us or present only partial truths to the readers. But it's all up to the individuals to make that judgment call, just as in real life. the language is a TOOL to tell a story.

[Cassiopeia]

Wow.yeah that's exactly what I thought, Ray..when you went off on your previous post.

[icerose]

Just because they didn't complain doesn't necessarily mean you're doing your best. Not to say your stories aren't good. Just to me that when a mobster says, "Gosh darn it," it taxes my suspension of disbelief. Now, if your story and characters are so wonderful that you don't need the curse words, than good for you.

Meanwhile, millions will continue to read Stephen King's potty-mouth characters and comment on how realistic and authentic they are.

To each his/her own, I suppose.

Trust me, my mobsters don't say "Gosh darn it." I've found that swearing is actually easier to use than finding a more creative alternative and still get the same or better impact across. I aim for the more creative approach, but that's just me and a personal decision I've made.

There are some really good programs out there that loosely use swearing. Dexter is one of them. I adore the program. I personally wish they would use it less. The writing is excellent, and that's what keeps me hooked, not the swearing.

I think they could have written it just as good or even better without it. Using the watered down alternatives and calling it good doesn't cut it, you have to restructure the whole dialog to make it work.

[Ninjas Love Nixon]

In the instance of the abusive mother, would the mother have been less abusive if she had not used 'fuck' when addressing the child?

If you believe she would have been less abusive, can you explain why in reference to the child's understanding of the situation (the understanding that genuinely counts in terms of abuse)?

I've been thinking about it, but I just can't get there, on any level. I think there's maybe an argument for colourless emphasis, or half-understood taboo associations, but I can't see how that demonstrably becomes a make-or-break quality of abuse (and it seems piddling compared to the emotional aggression that is taking place regardless).

If the child doesn't understand the term, you could just as well substitute 'blithering' for all the difference it makes. If the child does genuinely understand the term, then they are likely already desensitised given its prevalence in popular culture. That being the case, the real danger seems to be a hazy middle ground where the child thinks it's bad, but doesn't understand how or why. AKA harmful ignorance. But that's a whole other topic.

Might constant use of the word 'fuck' contribute to the reinforcement and reproduction of obscenity in social interaction? Sure. But language is a formal system. No word or string of letters has any meaning but the institutional meanings imparted by society. And on those terms, 'fuck' is becoming less and less shocking every day.

If you want something shocking, how about this: Words don't mean anything.

Thought experiment. Here is a simple, four-word sentence:

The sky is blue.

Define each word in this sentence in your own words. Then define each word you have used to define those words. And because you are defining, you aren't allowed to use any word you have used in a previous definition. Now define your new set of definitions, and so on.

You can't. And even if you hadn't run out of words, you would never, ever be able to end the chain of definition, arriving at a primal source of meaning. Because there isn't one. Words are crude abstractions that signify hugely complex constellations of understanding.

Labeling/hating a word is pointless. Labeling/hating what it signifies, sure. But that's a complex weave of things, unique to every individual, and is tangled with everything else in our individual minds.

In terms of writing, it should be evident where 'fuck' is a sign of weakness. Once you get outside that, it's a different can of worms, imo.

[Birol]

Ray. Cass. Don't even start.

[seun]

As a parent, I find that kind of language towards a child, abusive. It's not right.

As for using that as an excuse for the way movies and books are using the F word, I don't find the argument plausible.


I may have misunderstood but it seems you're suggesting I'm saying that swearing in fiction is OK without question because people swear as that mother did in reality. It's not an excuse. If used in fiction in the same way, it's a reflection of life for people like that mother - unpleasant as it is.

[xXFireSpiritXx]

It depends on the character I believe. Do I know people who use "fuck" every other sentence? Yes. In my current manuscript my character has a major potty mouth, but it is who she is. I sometimes pause I see if "crap" ,"screwed" , or "dang" would work, but most times I replace them with the word which was intended.

I don't think the use of profanity is a sign of weakness. I have read some Stephen King books where a good 1/3 of the words used are curses. Now, I will agree that if every character speaks the same way and uses fuck this, fuck that, fuck me--that could be considered "over the top". But to be honest, I do not think there is a wrong or right answer to this question.

[Fox The Cave]

Some people speak and think that way. (Hi!) If you're writing a character who does so, then how can that be a sign of weakness? Is it any different than writing a character who says ain't or some other sort of speech pattern? That's how people are.

Though, I tend to think that only first person or very close third person narrative would include the word fuck-- or most other vulgarities-- outside of dialogue. Though, I suppose anything is possible.

Profanity alone will not show character. It's how and when profanity is used that shows character. It's different when I swear (which is pretty much all the time, when I'm not in Teacher-mode) and when my husband swears (because he says the word 'crap' as if he'll get spanked for saying it. And he in his 30s.) So, once the character is established if we come to the end of a scene and the character says "Oh, fuck." If I'm the character, then it's probably nothing. Could even be humorous. But if my husband was the character in the scene, then you KNOW something's incredibly horribly wrong. Part of a character.

Though I tend to think that division between what is "acceptable" language and what is not is really a way to segregate people-- usually "polite" society from impolite. They are only words. But that's a separate debate. =)

Don't worry about the profanity. Worry about creating characters. The characters you create will determine what, when, and how profanity is used. IMNHO.

I'm reminded of the last season of The Wire (being the David Simon fanboy that I am). Throughout the show, Omar Little had expressed an aversion to swearing - despite everyone else on the show having mouths like sewers, Omar didn't like it. But there's a scene in season five, the last season, where you finally do hear Omar swear. And like you said, it's not the fact that he's swearing that made an impact, it's the fact that OMAR'S swearing! It made you realize just how on his last legs he truly was.

It wasn't the fact that he was now literally walking on one leg after jumping through a glass window and down six storeys, or the fact that his mentor and father figure was brutally tortured and murdered, or that his only allies had been killed and he'd for the first time been outsmarted and set up - it was the fact that Omar just called Marlo a bitch! That really brought it home.

[john barnes on toast]

I'm reminded of the last season of The Wire

I was going to mention The Wire in relation to this debate.

I really don't like the gratuitous use of swearing. In recent years there's been a proliferation of films & television where I questioned its use.
For example I've seen a couple of Judd Apatow films where I've thought the swearing was just there to try and prove that what were really quite safe and comfortable comedies were actually edgy and adult.

Every time someone dropped the F bomb in the 40 Year Old Virgin I winced. It didn't add anything.

Whereas with The Wire, I think the language (which is as coarse as it can get) is absolutely essential. Consequently I had no qualms about recommending that my mother watch it.


It all comes down to context, which I think we all know.

[Fox The Cave]

Consequently I had no qualms about recommending that my mother watch it.

I recommended it to my Ma too. Surprisingly, she wasn't bothered by all the swearing, which I think just proves the point.

It's the difference between swearing to make yourself seem like something you're not, and swearing 'cause it's organic.

Like a white guy trying to be black - you can put on all the jerseys, chains and black terminology you want, you're just making it more obvious you're white.

[john barnes on toast]

I recommended it to my Ma too. Surprisingly, she wasn't bothered by all the swearing, which I think just proves the point.

It's the difference between swearing to make yourself seem like something you're not, and swearing 'cause it's organic.

Like a white guy trying to be black - you can put on all the jerseys, chains and black terminology you want, you're just making it more obvious you're white.


True dat.

[Aggy B.]

I think part of the issue has to do with why people swear in the first place.

Sure, using a swear can be a sign of weakness (either on the part of the author or on the part of the character) because words like "fuck" can be used indiscriminately and substituting for other possible verbs/adjectives/adverbs/etc.

But I think it might be useful to recognize that when people swear it is also because they are trying to express emotion for which we don't have adequate words. The intensity of what we want to express can sometimes only be captured by something obscene or profane no matter how inexact it is.

And, I would like to point out, that the majority of people swear in one form or another. (My mother didn't but she is one of the few I've met.) A friend of mine got in a fight with her sister because the sister objected to the use of the word "ass." She did not have a problem saying "ace" instead. But whichever word used both my friend and her sister meant the same thing.

I stopped using "gosh" and "crap" when I realized that what I meant was "God" and "shit."

If one is writing about a character who just doesn't swear, well and good. If one can find a way to express without profanity or obscenity even the deepest anger and passion more power to you. But, I think, substituting "less offensive" words (soft swears or kiddie swears or whatever) is dishonest.

Just my two cents.

[Team 2012]

Saying Fuck is a sign of strength and power. It's almost impossible to dominate a person or conversation without saying Fuck a lot. It's the ultimate male, virile one-up and answerable with a louder invocation of the same word.

In situations where saying Fuck doesn't create the desired intimidation, subserviance, and awe, switch to "Cunt". That's even stronger.

[cray]

It's almost impossible to dominate a person or conversation without saying Fuck a lot.



:Wha:

[john barnes on toast]

Saying Fuck is a sign of strength and power. It's almost impossible to dominate a person or conversation without saying Fuck a lot. It's the ultimate male, virile one-up and answerable with a louder invocation of the same word.

In situations where saying Fuck doesn't create the desired intimidation, subserviance, and awe, switch to "Cunt". That's even stronger.

that's rubbish.

(unless you were joking, in which case it's just a rubbish joke)

[SarahMacManus]

"Fuck" is just a word.

I write characters that say "fuck".

I also write characters that say "armoire".

When they say both, they get really interesting.

[Lifelongdagger]

I've a feeling all the characters in my book would be saying, 'What the fuck is an armoire?', but that's just them. And me . . . :)

[icerose]

Since a few posts have talked about replacing swearing with kiddie swearing I wanted to come back and clarify. In a PM with another poster here, I worked up an illustration of my point: (Sorry for the crudeness in the first example it's the only way I can make my point.)

Amber grips a small knuckle knife. "God dammit, that f-in bastard just stole those tickets. I've been lookin' forward to this all f-in night. I'm going to f-in slice him up."

You can't simply replace it with:

Amber grips a small knuckle knife. "Gosh darn it that meanie just stole those tickets from me. And I was looking forward to it too. I'll get him back for that."

It doesn't have the same meaning, character personality or anything.

Where as:

Amber grips a small knuckle knife. "You see where he went? No one steals from me and gets away with it. Three weeks pay for those tickets. He'll pay every cent back in blood."

You're still getting the full meaning across without all the garbage. In fact I am more chilled by the third passage and know more about my character in the first.

[scarletpeaches]

I think it says a lot that you referred to 'garbage'.

[maestrowork]

Amber grips a small knuckle knife. "You see where he went? No one steals from me and gets away with it. Three weeks pay for those tickets. He'll pay every cent back in blood."

You're still getting the full meaning across without all the garbage. In fact I am more chilled by the third passage and know more about my character in the first.


I kind of disagree, and I don't agree with you that it's "garbage." It seems like you already equate the f word as "garbage" to begin with so you don't see any merits in it.

I wonder what Stephen King thinks because you just called a lot of his stuff garbage.

To me, you lose the character in the second version. It's not the same character, even though the message may still be the same. The tone and voice are very different, however. It's a totally different character! Like I illustrated before, "shut up" and "shut the fuck up" have very different tones, and they say different things about the character. To say they're the same is not correct. To me, it's just your justification of not writing the word, not at all a reason for not using it.

[SarahMacManus]

Since a few posts have talked about replacing swearing with kiddie swearing I wanted to come back and clarify. In a PM with another poster here, I worked up an illustration of my point: (Sorry for the crudeness in the first example it's the only way I can make my point.)


You can't just replace it. It doesn't work at all. I think you've illustrated your point beautifully.

I use the f-bomb when it's appropriate for the character, but in cases like that, I don't overuse it.

I use it with characters who would not normally use it to emphasize the extreme position/emotion that the character is feeling.

I think if you overuse it, you run the risk of diffusing its strength. On the other hand, not using it when its appropriate is cheating yourself and your writing.

You've overused it in the first case, and that's what makes it "garbage".

It's just a word.
There are many more foul things on earth than using the f-bomb. I read a book the other day where someone ate a baby. Now THAT I find disturbing.

(I don't read zombie books, obviously.)