Morality Question

[gonovelgo]

(I'm sure this has probably come up a dozen times already, but I couldn't find anything when I searched. Feel free to slap me over the head with a link if I just missed the right thread!)

How do you go about writing a story set in a society that your readers would probably consider highly 'immoral'? My current WIP is fantasy, and is set in a highly patriarchal society where slavery is an accepted practice and women have very limited rights. This wouldn't be an issue if I was writing from the point of view of an outsider who could have a sensible reason for criticising all of this, but all of my characters were raised to find nothing wrong with any of it. I'm not trying to get them off the hook, since I want them to struggle with moral ambiguity in the course of the story and hate the 'inexplicably enlightened' trope, but how much is too much? For example, one of the main viewpoint characters is generally sympathetic and has mildly progressive attitudes towards women, but also treats slaves like dirt and has some serious prejudices about a subset of his country's population (as does almost everybody else in the book). In your experience, is this likely to turn readers off?

As a secondary question, do you think YA writers in particular need to take this kind of thing into account, or are teenage readers just as capable of dealing with these kinds of situations as adults?

[Red.Ink.Rain]

Repeat after me: Teens can handle everything adults can. And if there are a few who can't, then they won't buy your book. Simple as that.

[kaitlin008]

I think as long as your characters have redeeming qualities, and are likeable in other ways, that sort of thing can be gotten past. No one has a problem in epic fantasy when one particular type of being is hated for some reason, so I can't see why it should be different. Your character can't be hateful all around, though. But if they're interesting to read about, I think people will put up with a lot. At least, I will.

And I don't think there's a difference between YA and adult in this area. Teens can deal.

[gonovelgo]

Repeat after me: Teens can handle everything adults can. And if there are a few who can't, then they won't buy your book. Simple as that.

In that case, a more pertinent question might be: can most adults, and by extension teens, handle it? I have my doubts, given the tendency of a lot of writers to not sully their main characters with improper opinions. It's not universal, obviously, but it seems to happen a lot.

[gonovelgo]

I think as long as your characters have redeeming qualities, and are likeable in other ways, that sort of thing can be gotten past. No one has a problem in epic fantasy when one particular type of being is hated for some reason, so I can't see why it should be different. Your character can't be hateful all around, though. But if they're interesting to read about, I think people will put up with a lot. At least, I will.

The thing about epic fantasy is that the hated beings are often portrayed as irredeemably evil anyway (I'm thinking of the Dark Lord's minions, here). If there's widespread prejudice against elves (or whatever), you can often count on the main characters to be inexplicably open-minded about it, even if it makes no sense for them to be.

But it's good to know that it's not likely to put you off automatically!

[Red.Ink.Rain]

In that case, a more pertinent question might be: can most adults, and by extension teens, handle it? I have my doubts, given the tendency of a lot of writers to not sully their main characters with improper opinions. It's not universal, obviously, but it seems to happen a lot.

I seriously think it'll be okay. Actually, I think it would be refreshing to see an epic fantasy where the society is not perfect.

[gonovelgo]

I seriously think it'll be okay. Actually, I think it would be refreshing to see an epic fantasy where the society is not perfect.

My thoughts exactly, although the story isn't all that epic. My only concern was that people would think 'Man, this guy is a huge jackass' and then stop reading, but it looks as if they may have been unfounded.

[Repartee]

I seriously think it'll be okay. Actually, I think it would be refreshing to see an epic fantasy where the society is not perfect.

Ditto [although I don't read fantasy, I would love to see something with imperfections for once].

[kaitlin008]

Since teens will read about people who do much more immoral stuff than this, I don't think you have a problem. Imperfect MCs are a lot more interesting to read about than perfect, boring ones.

[Leasie]

Yeah, personally no problem with reading things that may be slightly immoral. It's interesting, and as long as the characters have certain things that redeem them, ie it's the way they were raised. I would be fine with it

[Alpha Echo]

My thoughts exactly, although the story isn't all that epic. My only concern was that people would think 'Man, this guy is a huge jackass' and then stop reading, but it looks as if they may have been unfounded.

For me, if a character is being a "huge jackass," I am almost likely to keep reading...as long as the things the character's actions and thoughts are interesting. I would want to know what's driving him to be so awful and is there anything or anyone that can turn him around?

[gonovelgo]

For me, if a character is being a "huge jackass," I am almost likely to keep reading...as long as the things the character's actions and thoughts are interesting. I would want to know what's driving him to be so awful and is there anything or anyone that can turn him around?

What's driving him to be so awful is the society he grew up in, but he's very much the rule rather than the exception. He gets turned around in a major way as the story progresses, but I was worried that readers wouldn't stick around long enough for it to happen. Now I'm not so worried about it. (I'm also having a fantastic writing all of this - you wouldn't believe how refreshing it is to write a character designed to make people squirm rather than being obviously 'good' or 'evil'.)

[Danthia]

Reading about people who aren't like you is part if the fun. As long as you're not preaching any particular morality, and just show it in context for the people who live there, with the people feeling the way the people in that world would feel about it, no one will care. And those that do won't pick up the book. But they weren't your readers anyway :)

[gonovelgo]

Reading about people who aren't like you is part if the fun. As long as you're not preaching any particular morality, and just show it in context for the people who live there, with the people feeling the way the people in that world would feel about it, no one will care. And those that do won't pick up the book. But they weren't your readers anyway :)

Ha, good point. I'm not interested in preaching (I doubt there are too many teens out there who have never come across the opinion that Racism Is Bad), but I know people who equate the depiction of something immoral with an endorsement of it. (Yes, really.)

Evidently I don't have much to be worried about, so on with the story!

[Repartee]

I know people who equate the depiction of something immoral with an endorsement of it. (Yes, really.)

I do too. And don't worry. My novel is very immoral, way more than yours.

[Kris]

My thoughts exactly, although the story isn't all that epic. My only concern was that people would think 'Man, this guy is a huge jackass' and then stop reading, but it looks as if they may have been unfounded.

I've seen so many threads lately about "am I going to turn off readers with this or that." What's up with that? Just write the book you have to write as well as you can write it!

What you described might turn off some readers unless done well. (And actually I was mildly put off by it.)

But I was reading an Amazon review of a VERY popular, top-selling book today, and I read a review where a woman said that Christian parents should beware because the main character is immoral because....the Main Character questions the value of marriage (gasp!) and feels that just being lovers is a more honest arrangement (gasp!)

So clearly this just made me want to buy the book more. Gone with the Wind is a great example of a book set in an immoral world, where women have few rights (although the hero is kind to slaves, and I think the universal mark of a hero is that he treats people consistently and/or has the intelligence to recognize or question his prejudices, sorry). And GWTW has sold millions, millions of copies.

[gonovelgo]

That actually raises another interesting point: do books always have to have 'heroes'? I don't think any of my characters could be described that way, unless we're defining 'hero' very loosely.

Just out of curiosity, how long do you think you'd stick around to see if a character like this changed his ways? I'm no longer contemplating toning him down or anything, but it would be interesting to know anyway.

[Kris]

That actually raises another interesting point: do books always have to have 'heroes'? I don't think any of my characters could be described that way, unless we're defining 'hero' very loosely.

Just out of curiosity, how long do you think you'd stick around to see if a character like this changed his ways? I'm no longer contemplating toning him down or anything, but it would be interesting to know anyway.

My answer would be that if you like him, the book will find an audience that likes him too. Of course there are book without heroes, just protagonists.

I like plenty of people who are mean and immoral in real life. And in fiction too--have you ever read Patricia Highsmith's Ripley series? The MC is a sociopath, and you find yourself hoping he doesn't get caught. Ian McEwans' "The Cement Garden" is a bit like that too--although I hated reading that book and wanted to wash my hands when it was over.

[gonovelgo]

I haven't read any of those, but now I kind of want to! Particularly the McEwan one, since everyone keeps saying I should read his stuff.

Thanks for the input.

[Kris]

a lot of McEwan's work takes up themes of morality in one way or another. He's definitely worth reading. Good luck!

[Millicent M'Lady]

In that case, a more pertinent question might be: can most adults, and by extension teens, handle it? I have my doubts, given the tendency of a lot of writers to not sully their main characters with improper opinions. It's not universal, obviously, but it seems to happen a lot.

I know they are not exactly the same subject matter wise but Brave New World and 1984 both showed societies which any normal person would find questionable. I read 1984 in my late teens and Brave New World in my twenties and I found it more intriguing than alarming to read about these societies.

If you haven't yet done so, read 1984 (the better of my two examples IMO). It very effectively deals with characters living in an oppressive regime and struggling with it. As long as you can present well-written characters I wold read about them even if I find their views distasteful. For me, they don't even have to be likeable- they would just intrigue me more!

Good luck with it!:)

[gonovelgo]

I actually tried to read 1984 when I was much younger, but the writing style really put me off. (I can't remember why, though...) It's on my ever-expanding list of 'books I really should read'.

Just going back to the Gone With The Wind example, I think you could refer to the issue I'm talking about as being analogous with historical fiction where all of the main characters are inexplicably 'progressive' or modern about a lot of things. A 'how to' book I read recently used the example of gay characters in historical fiction who seem to exist solely so that the main character(s) can demonstrate how enlightened or open-minded they are, despite the fact that it makes very little sense for them to be that way. (Especially if only the bad guys share the distasteful opinions of their era.) To me this kind of thing feels like a massive cop-out, whether it happens in historical fiction or in fantasy.

[Kris]

Just going back to the Gone With The Wind example, I think you could refer to the issue I'm talking about as being analogous with historical fiction where all of the main characters are inexplicably 'progressive' or modern about a lot of things. A 'how to' book I read recently used the example of gay characters in historical fiction who seem to exist solely so that the main character(s) can demonstrate how enlightened or open-minded they are, despite the fact that it makes very little sense for them to be that way. (Especially if only the bad guys share the distasteful opinions of their era.) To me this kind of thing feels like a massive cop-out, whether it happens in historical fiction or in fantasy.

Hah! Yeah, that is really annoying!

Well, sticking with Rhett Butler as an example, for the life of me I can't remember his attitude toward slavery in general, but he definitely wasn't an idealist-- he had no problems exploiting the war for his personal gain, for example. But it was pointed out that he was kind to individual slaves, which strengthened his character -- it seems to be a mark of villainy (villainous-ness?) to treat slaves cruelly, since their rights & freedom are so curtailed that they can't fight back, etc.

[gonovelgo]

Hah! Yeah, that is really annoying!

Well, sticking with Rhett Butler as an example, for the life of me I can't remember his attitude toward slavery in general, but he definitely wasn't an idealist-- he had no problems exploiting the war for his personal gain, for example. But it was pointed out that he was kind to individual slaves, which strengthened his character -- it seems to be a mark of villainy (villainous-ness?) to treat slaves cruelly, since their rights & freedom are so curtailed that they can't fight back, etc.

True, but to my mind that isn't a good enough reason to make a character go against the mores of their society. Obviously it's not a fantastic idea to make your MC so thoroughly unlikeable that readers want to see him/her die, which is probably what would happen if you were really intent on historical accuracy, but I don't think I'd make a character start out 'enlightened' or have it be an intrinsic part of their personality. (As in, they start out as some sort of one-in-a-million visionary.) I think it's okay for even a sympathetic character to have some 'villainy' mixed in with the good stuff, especially if it makes sense for it to be there.