Poetry is Dead

[KikiteNeko]

Hm. Well, I'm pretty hard to offend when people disagree with my taste in reading. Just leave T.S. Eliot alone, lest I go Chris Crocker all up in here.

"LEAVE THE WASTELAND ALONE"

Oh, i thought of that. But we can be safe and stick to the authors who are dead. (By no means will I cast stones at the living - although my first published piece EVER was in fact a poem, it also represents the only good poem I've ever written. The others were horrid, horrid things. :D)

[slcboston]

Hmm... I liked TS Eliot though I did find him a tad pretentious at times. :D

*ducks for cover* :D

[KikiteNeko]

I think that's just the time period. Actually, when he wrote Waste Land, it was not well-received by his peers. The way I understand it, all the other poets were in constant battle to stuff the most literary allusions into their poetry, and Eliot wrote the most incomprehensible (though lovely) poem possible, packed with more footnotes than content. That showed 'em. So I think the pretentiousness was intentional, though he was very humbled in the presence of Ezra Pound, whom he referred to as "the better craftsmen."

Hmm... I liked TS Eliot though I did find him a tad pretentious at times. :D

*ducks for cover* :D

[JRH]

To return to the oiginal subject, I have always contended that Poetry is alive and well, (at least in it's lesser forms) in Song Lyrics, Greeting Card Verse and Forums like these, because all of which show that there is still interest in Poetry/Verse that "COMMUNICATES with it's audiance, and now, even Dana Gioia, (one of the first to pronounce Poetry's demise), contends, in an article in the Hudson Review at: http://www.hudsonreview.com/gioiaSp03.html, that written Poetry is being replaced by a series of oral options, (including "Oral Poetry", "Performance Poetry" and "Rap") which are growing in popularity and that that is, in turn, bringing about a revival in Establishment Poetry as well.

I like the concept that the Establishment is beginning to see the folly of their narrow, self-serving practices, (as it recognizes the public interest that exists and is a strong signal that the "Cycle" is changing), but I am less excited by the recognition of such Oral forms as a driving force, in today's "Poetics".

I, in fact, find the concept, extremely frightening, in that I've always felt that most forms of "Oral Poetry" have to be, by it's nature, limited to concepts that could easily and rapidly be absorbed by a listening audiance, (much like Song Lyrics) and which therefore must be simularly limited in their depth and scope, (and relegated to being considered "Verse" as opposed to "Poetry", except in the rarist of cases).

Moreover, it has always been my experience that most Oral Poetry has always been evaluated by its audiance more on the basis of performance than content, and, in my estimation, that can only lead to a lack in the quality of "poetic" expression.

Hopefully the emphasis on the "Oral" can be reintegrated with the "Written Forms" so that the overall quality of the Poetry that is available does not actually decline.

The "Declamation" of Poetry by the author or by others, however, as long as it originates in written form that is capable of pursuing meaning at greater depth and complexity, and which also co-exists in that written form so it can be reviewed and analysed at leisure to fully assimilate it's message, can insure the best of both aspects and is, hopefully something we will see more of in the future.

No matter how one looks at it, however, It's quite "obvious", at least to me, that Poetry is far from dead, and that there is hope for the future.

Think about it,

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

[Medievalist]

Oh Lord. I'd thought McGonagall had no rival.

He wrote thousands and thousands of lines of the stuff.

And I've not even delved into my collection of Cheese poetry :D

[Medievalist]

Oh, i thought of that. But we can be safe and stick to the authors who are dead. (By no means will I cast stones at the living - although my first published piece EVER was in fact a poem, it also represents the only good poem I've ever written. The others were horrid, horrid things. :D)

Oh lord . . . it gets much much worse -- and that's just sticking to the canononical writers' stuff that isn't anthologized :D

It is, by the way, enormous fun to teach this poetry.

[Medievalist]

Hm. Well, I'm pretty hard to offend when people disagree with my taste in reading. Just leave T.S. Eliot alone, lest I go Chris Crocker all up in here.

"LEAVE THE WASTELAND ALONE"

You might want to look for the facsimile of Eliot's ms. before Pound edited it; it's quite different and in some ways, better.

[Medievalist]

Moreover, it has always been my experience that most Oral Poetry has always been evaluated by its audiance more on the basis of performance than content, and, in my estimation, that can only lead to a lack in the quality of "poetic" expression.

Not quite sure what you mean by "oral" poetry--do you mean oral forumulaic poetry, like, oh, Beowulf, or the Slavic traditional poems, or Irish bardic poetry?

Because poetry was delivered orally right through the early eighteen hundreds, as a standard practice, until cheap printed books and enough free time that the middle class could afford to engage in silent reading.

[JRH]

The terminology was Gioia's not mine, and I'm well aware of our tradition of Oral Poetry in the past, but today, except for readings by Established Poets, oral poetry is primarily spontaneous and off the cuff, (or, in the case of song lyrics, specifically designed for the limited scope of what can be readily absorbed on a simplistic emotional level without much if any intellectual content), which, in both cases, limits such to the level of Verse, NOT Poetry.

The Poems of our historical ORAL tradition were, in fact carefully researched, structured, memorized, and as sophisticated as any of the written Poetry which has supplanted it, but bears little semblance to the overly dramatic, directionless, and undisciplined posturing that goes on in that name today.

Just my opinion,

Jim Hoye

[Priene]

And I've not even delved into my collection of Cheese poetry :D

Cheese poetry? I'm game.

[Shweta]

(or, in the case of song lyrics, specifically designed for the limited scope of what can be readily absorbed on a simplistic emotional level without much if any intellectual content)

Ya know, people keep saying this and it's starting to annoy me*. Many of the songs I listen to make better poetry or short stories than I have any hope of writing anytime soon.
And sure, there are certainly plenty of simplistic and non-intellectual songs. There are plenty of simplistic and non-intellectual poems too**. There's selection bias happening here.
A quick example, from Counting Crows' colorblind:I am
Taffy stuck, tongue tied
Stuttered shook and uptight
Pull me out from inside
I am ready
I am ready
I am ready
I am...fine
I am covered in skin
No one gets to come in
Pull me out from inside
I am folded
and unfolded
and unfolding
I am
colorblind
I wish I'd written that. Even without the music. Tell me what's simplistic and non-intellectual about this, do.
And while I'm at it, here's the start of CC's Round Here
Step out the front door like a ghost
into the fog where no one notices
the contrast of white on white.
And in between the moon and you
the angels get a better view
of the crumbling difference between wrong and right.

I walk in the air between the rain
through myself and back again
Where? I don't know
Maria says she's dying
through the door I hear her crying
Why? I don't know

* Especially because it reads as yet more lit-people whining about genre and hiding behind "the philistines don't understand my Genius", and "That can't be any good, too many people like it." Probably no coincidence that it took speculative poetry to make me realize that I do too love poetry.
I'd say this particular complaint is also really not respectful towards our own members over in Music & Songwriting.

** And nothing wrong with that in principle; I for one adore Green Eggs and Ham :D

[JRH]

Shweta,

Before you start accusing me of being disrespectful to those on the Songwriting Forum, it might behoove you to check that Forum out, paying specific attention to this post at: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83677, and the fact that I've been posting on that Forum for at least 3 years if not more.

I've been writng Poetry for 48 years, Song Lyrics for over 35 years, and setting them to music for over 28 of those based on 30 Quarter hours of Music Theory taken in the early 80s, and I assure you I am well aware of the VERY real differences between them and I stand totally by the statements of mine that you quoted and those that I make in that Post.

You might also check out the 17 Songs I have posted on AcidPlanet.com under J.R. Hoye, or by going to the following site: http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?PID=328379&t=1793, which accesses my Song, "Standing Room Only", which won 2d Prize Country in the 2003 Billboard Song contest and offers access to the rest of my songs from that site. and which includes 7 other songs that have won Honorable Mentions in various Song Contests in the last 10 years .

As for the Song Lyrics that YOU referenced, I would say that "by MY standards", which can be seen at: http://www.shadowpoetry.com/cgi-bin/spmb/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=10;t=1641 they would only be considered Verse, and as I say in the essay about Songwriting vs Poetry, VERY few Song Lyrics could be published as Quality Poetry. (and the fact that you LIKE a lyric or RELATE to it does NOT make it well written in terms of Craftsmanship or mean that it is of sufficient scope and/or depth to be rise above the level of Verse and be considered Poetry).

I'm sorry, if this sounds harsh, but I take both my Songwriting and my Poetry VERY seriously and do NOT make any of those destinctions lightly or arbitrarily.

Think about it.

Jim Hoye, (JRH)

P.S. For the record, I have written 6 Science Fiction Short Stories over the years, (although none have been published), have been reading SF for over 55 years and have well over 3000 SF paperbacks in my own personal library. Moreover, I am well aware that Heinlein is usually credited with coining the term "Speculative Fiction" as he didn't want to be restricted to realms of "Science" in his stories, and I also know that the "Rhysling" awards are named for the blind singer in his "Green Hills Of Earth", so don't classify me as one of those "lit-people" who whines about "Genre".

[Shweta]

Before you start accusing me of being disrespectful to those on the Songwriting Forum, it might behoove you to check that Forum out, paying specific attention to this post at: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83677, and the fact that I've been posting on that Forum for at least 3 years if not more.

Sorry, I quoted you but my comment wasn't just about you. It's that several people (and I think I did say that) have been saying that songwriting is just not worthy and it's getting on my nerves.
And yeah, I don't hang out in that forum, cause I can't do songwriting. I am amazed at the people who can.

(and the fact that you LIKE a lyric or RELATE to it does NOT make it well written in terms of Craftsmanship or mean that it is of sufficient scope and/or depth to be rise above the level of Verse and be considered Poetry).
Indeed, and I like plenty of song lyrics that aren't particularly intelligent. And I'm not saying that the lyrics I posted are poetry, but I will say, and maintain, that they are as layered and intelligent a form of expression as poetry. A different form, yes. A "simplistic, emotion-only" form? I have to disagree with you strongly, about both poetry and songwriting on that. I think that characterization is insulting to many people who like popular music, and I think it's also undervaluing the importance of emotional reactions to poetry.

And, having read it, I cannot agree with your poetry/verse distinction either. I think I see what you're getting at, but I also think you're drawing clear lines where there aren't any. Jumping to definitions rather than fully exploring the territory.

I'm sorry if all that feels to you like a novice thinking her opinion is worth the same as an expert's. But despite your expertise, on this one I deeply disagree.

I'm sorry, if this sounds harsh, but I take both my Songwriting and my Poetry VERY seriously and do NOT make any of those destinctions lightly or arbitrarily.

I take my song listening and my poetry reading very seriously, too :)
I think you may have valuable distinctions, but I cannot accept your labels of them and the way you are talking about them, which reads as laden down with value-judgments I don't agree with. So I cannot tell.

I'd be happy to talk about that more, but it seems like you've talked about it plenty, so I don't want to push you to start the dialogue (all over again) with a novice if you don't want to. Not gonna take it badly if you don't want to continue this.

...so don't classify me as one of those "lit-people" who whines about "Genre".
Goodness, I seem to have pissed you off. Possibly I annoyed you to the point of reading something into my words that wasn't there?
Because you know, I said nothing at all about your relationship to speculative fiction. I said something about mine, but the genre I referred to was not that. If poetry is "lit", songwriting is the genre here.

And I have seen this argument far too often, and far too often it is used as an excuse for impenetrable writing. Which I have relatively little respect for. I'm not saying that you are doing that - but the argument reads to me as justification of something social as something inherent. That is, poetry is the high-prestige form and songwriting ain't, so people read all sorts of virtues into the one and vices into the other.
And yeah, I think that is the same sort of nonsense as deciding Queen's English is inherently better than, say, Bombay English.

[Dario D.]

I think it is a mistake for anyone to say that just because poetry can potentially have tons of meaning/worth for those who pursue it, that it isn't dead in our modern world.

One might be part of a group or community that is completely into it, but that would only represent a tiiiiiiiiiiny fraction of the population, which largely thinks almost nothing of it nowadays. (at least that's my observation)

[Medievalist]

I think it is a mistake for anyone to say that just because poetry can potentially have tons of meaning/worth for those who pursue it, that it isn't dead in our modern world.

One might be part of a group or community that is completely into it, but that would only represent a tiiiiiiiiiiny fraction of the population, which largely thinks almost nothing of it nowadays. (at least that's my observation)

Umm... if you have the idea that even fifty years ago the average person thought more about poetry than the average person does now, you'd be wrong.

"Poetry/literature/the novel/books/grammar/spelling..." you name it, they've been perennial complaints since Plato (pace re: the anachronisms of spelling and books).

[Dario D.]

I was under the impression that poetry has seen much better days... like back when reading was widely done for entertainment, with no TV/video-games to crowd it out. You know, the Robert Frost days, and previous. Have you seen The Postman? (old Italian movie: "Il Postino")

[aboyd]

hey!

how are you?
Been a rough year. Took me 6 months to reply to your post! However, I had to resurrect the old thread because I couldn't leave your greeting un-replied to. So hi! Nice to see you again.

I think I'm going to settle in for a long while. Can't wait to re-discover everyone.