Should I use words like "yacht" in fantasy novels?

[AnneMarble]

This is about a fantasy novel, but this could apply to writers of historical fiction as well.

Recently, I pasted a short excerpt from my fantasy novel into a writing
chat. In it, I mentioned that the characters were on a barge. (These were
barges with sails, such as those used for trade on rivers in England,
Holland, etc.) The excerpt also said that one of the characters saw a yacht
going by.

One person saw that excerpt and said that I'd have to change the
word "yacht." I suppose she isn't familiar with the origins of the word
and thinks that it's a modern word.*

If one person is confused, others may be. And the idea of a "barge" that
has sails (and doesn't require mules) might also confuse people. I've seen
how readers get annoyed about errors that aren't really errors. (For
example, one fantasy writer was criticized for using contractions
because "People didn't talk like that back then.")

So... should I come up with other names to mean "barge" (cumbersome ship thingie used to move goods up and down the river) and "yacht" (meaning swift sailing ship used by nobles to have parties, go on trips, and escape the palace in disguise)?

---
*|According to Merriam-Webster, "yacht" comes from the obsolete Dutch
jaght, from Middle Low German jacht, short for jachtschip, which means "hunting ship."

[Jamesaritchie]

If the word is historically accurate, use it. If it's esoteric enough, you can work the historical facts behind the word into the narrative or dialogue without creating an info dump.

[mdmkay]

It totally depends on the story although I must say I was really more impressed by the word jacht and jachtship but that's my OHI. If it is fantasy I could see that as being less jarring to the reader that jacht and yet close enough to yacht for them to easily grasp the concept. To be totally honest a barge with sails kinda escapes me a bit since you always see barges being towed. Although there are also barges with independent motors......sooooooo

[AnneMarble]

It totally depends on the story although I must say I was really more impressed by the word jacht and jachtship but that's my OHI. If it is fantasy I could see that as being less jarring to the reader that jacht and yet close enough to yacht for them to easily grasp the concept.
I could always cheat and translate the original term, calling them "hunting ships" or "hunting boats." People would get the impression of a ship hired by nobles to chase after deer. :)

To be totally honest a barge with sails kinda escapes me a bit since you always see barges being towed. Although there are also barges with independent motors......sooooooo
The concept through me, too. When someone suggested that I have my characters get passage on a barge, I imagined that they would be towed down the river by mules. But I found pictures of barges with sails that used to be used on the Thames. Those wouldn't be helpful for my story, however, as the crew consisted of one captain, a lad, and a dog. The scene where my characters find themselves under attack by the crew would be really short. :D

BTW there are actually societies of people who build elaborate models of these barges and work to preserve the few existing barges.

[reph]

Fantasy doesn't have to be historically accurate, does it? I can see a reader complaining about anachronism in historical fiction, but you said this was fantasy.

[AnneMarble]

If the word is historically accurate, use it. If it's esoteric enough, you can work the historical facts behind the word into the narrative or dialogue without creating an info dump.
That's true, although I can't really have the characters speaking Dutch when they would actually be speaking Alnaarn or Vinolandese. ;) But I can say that this type of vessel was once used by early nobles to sail to the nice hunting grounds in the such-and-such area.

Anyway, the word yacht sounds old, and I'd like to think that most people would look at it and realize that it must have been around a while. Or maybe I'm being too optimistic. ;)

[AnneMarble]

Fantasy doesn't have to be historically accurate, does it? I can see a reader complaining about anachronism in historical fiction, but you said this was fantasy.
True, but I want it to hold some relationship to reality, even if I change a lot of things. The setting isn't really Medieval, but it has a lot of similarities in the technology, so I don't want them doing something that makes no sense. (For example, some people were critical of a well known fantasy writer who created heraldic flags that looked gorgeous, but would have been very very hard to see in battle, thus completely defeating the purpose of the flag.)

And people do complain about "anachronisms" in fantasy. Some people got on Tolkien's case because there was tobacco available on Middle Earth.

I don't expect to please everybody. Some people seem to get their concepts of history from movies and their own fevered brains. I saw a rambling review complain that a fantasy novel was bad because nobles used nicknames instead of referring to each other formally (apparently he'd never heard of the Duke of Gloucester being referred to as "Dickon") and because the male characters were too emotional. (Medieval men often expressed their emotions very passionately -- probably because they knew they might die tomorrow!) I don't expect to reach people like this. Actually they make me... :ROFL: It's the borderline ones I worry about.

[PattiTheWicked]

I think the problem is that most folks have such a limited world view that when a word comes along that has alternate meanings that what we're used to, it's almost a suspension of disbelief issue. You say "yacht" and people automatically get a picture in their head of some fancy shmancy Lifestyles-of-the-Rich-and-Stupid big honkin' pleasure boat.

Actually, I do like the word "jacht" because I think it sounds appropriately OLD, and even though it's a Dutch word, I wonder if there's a way you could incorporate it into your fantasy novel?

[AnneMarble]

Actually, I do like the word "jacht" because I think it sounds appropriately OLD, and even though it's a Dutch word, I wonder if there's a way you could incorporate it into your fantasy novel?
Hmm. Maybe "jacht" is the Alnaarn word for part-tee. Actually, the yacht in question is most often used for pleasure cruises, with the emphasis on the word "pleasure." Ahem. And the yacht is named the Water Whip.
:whip:

[jules]

I found pictures of barges with sails that used to be used on the Thames. Those wouldn't be helpful for my story, however, as the crew consisted of one captain, a lad, and a dog.

Sounds like the boat my characters are on at the moment in the novel I'm revising. Although the lad's more of a lass, being the captain's daughter. And the dog's a cat. But pretty similar in most respects. :)

I'm going to have to get my terminology straight, though. Looking ahead a bit I see I've wandered between calling it a boat and a ship. Calling it a barge (or perhaps a sail-barge, to clarify the matter) might help.

[AnneMarble]

I'm going to have to get my terminology straight, though. Looking ahead a bit I see I've wandered between calling it a boat and a ship. Calling it a barge (or perhaps a sail-barge, to clarify the matter) might help.
If you Google "sailing barges" and Thames (I think), you might find links to some of the organizations dedicated to these barges. They'll have pictures and such. Some even sell plans so that you can build your own barge model, but the plans I saw were around 200 pounds.
:faint:

[Aconite]

Some people got on Tolkien's case because there was tobacco available on Middle Earth.

It's been a long time since I read him, but IIRC, it was never specified that what the hobbits were smoking was tobacco. Any number of plants are smokable.

I would use "barge" and "jacht;" if you want to use "yacht," use it. It's accurate, so why dumb down your writing? It would be like saying "He gave it to Henry and I" instead of "Henry and me" just because some people think it's always "X and I."

[Jaws]

Aconite is correct: Tolkein said it was "weed," never that it was tobacco. That's not too surprising, considering that he renames so much else. Of course, it could be a different "weed," which come to think of it…

In any event, this topic strays into one of the religious wars in speculative fiction. The late James Blish (I believe it was; or was it James Gunn?) issued forth against "calling a rabbit a smeerp" in a relatively short essay on not trying to use new "names" to bring a sense of wonder to the mundane. That has since been expanded all out of proportion. However, two points: If it's something that's man-made and it's not a "staple item of commerce" (to use a lawyerly term) like a sword, it's probably better to actually rename it if the common name would be misleading. For example, certain kinds of fortified stone houses can be called "chateau," but if that's misleading in its function—if, instead, all that stone is there to keep out vicious animals and not vicious people—then by all means rename it. If part of your point is a language barrier, then have at it. There's a subtle language-barrier issue in Tolkein (or, at least, in LOTR) in that the only characters who ever speak in other than their own native tongue are either immensely powerful (Saruman) or immensely good.

I never did finish that dissertation, but I can still theorize with the best (or worst) of them!

[Jamesaritchie]

Fantasy doesn't have to be historically accurate, does it? I can see a reader complaining about anachronism in historical fiction, but you said this was fantasy.

There are many kinds of fantasy, but I think historical fantasy needs to be just as accurate as any other historical fiction. Like any historical fiction, you can have things happen that didn't really take place, but you can't just violate what did take place because of this.

If you don't want historical fiction to be accurate in the details, you need to invent a fantasy world to go along with the fantasy story.

[azbikergirl]

I face similar problems and reader misconceptions. I try to use words older than 200 years (ie, whose origins are documented as 1800 or before). It's surprising how old some words are, although they "seem" younger. I use the online etymology dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com) quite heavily, and for a while, I had a subscription to the OED online (http://www.oed.com), which as an even better etymology (but it ain't free).

[debraji]

The question is, do you want the reader to stay wrapped in the dream, the story you're creating with your words? If yacht jerks the majority of your readers out of the dream, whether the word is legitimately old or not, it's a problem.

Similarly, I used the word compost in a fantasy story. The OED has a 1258 citation--the word's been around a long, long time. But multiple readers balked at the word--it seemed too modern to them. I chose to reword the passage, calling it garden waste, because even though I knew I was using compost correctly, I didn't want to disrupt the flow of my story.

Is this dumbing-down one's writing? I think not. I'm keeping my audience in mind. I don't want to confuse them. It's why beta readers are invaluable.

In another story, I used castle terminology, like curtain wall, portcullis, and keep. One reader complained, but I decided that, not only were the terms correct, but most readers of fiction in historical settings would be comfortable with the terms, and the context would help define any unfamiliar words.

[Jamesaritchie]

The question is, do you want the reader to stay wrapped in the dream, the story you're creating with your words? If yacht jerks the majority of your readers out of the dream, whether the word is legitimately old or not, it's a problem.

Similarly, I used the word compost in a fantasy story. The OED has a 1258 citation--the word's been around a long, long time. But multiple readers balked at the word--it seemed too modern to them. I chose to reword the passage, calling it garden waste, because even though I knew I was using compost correctly, I didn't want to disrupt the flow of my story.

Is this dumbing-down one's writing? I think not. I'm keeping my audience in mind. I don't want to confuse them. It's why beta readers are invaluable.

In another story, I used castle terminology, like curtain wall, portcullis, and keep. One reader complained, but I decided that, not only were the terms correct, but most readers of fiction in historical settings would be comfortable with the terms, and the context would help define any unfamiliar words.

Writers drive me mad who change words, or who won't use words, becuase they're afraid their readers won't think they're used correctly. If yu do it right, neither yacht nor compost will jerk the majority of readers out of the dream.

I don't know if it's dumbing down the writing or not, but it sure reads that way to me.

I'd rather assume my readers know as much as I do about something, or if they don't, they want to learn. I expect the same from the novels I read.

[Steve 211]

I'd skip the yacht 'cause it did throw me - made me see a big double-decker white fiberglass hulk spewing out fumes as the sound system sputtered Huey Lewis.

And yeah, it is irritating to have to write in a way that you're not misunderstood.

Like I wrote to a friend that the Full Moon coming up on the 21st will be one of the biggest of the year, thinking he'd "get it," but no, he wrote back that the Full Moon is on the 22nd. Yeah, it is, and every calendar will say so, but if you check an almanac, it's actually full at 12:15 AM (EST), so it's more full on the night of the 21st than the 22nd. (Which is cool 'cause it's also the Summer Solstice.)

So I've found that unless you write out the whole deal like that, people never get it. They don't bother to look up stuff, but just have knee-jerk reactions. Just as I did with the yacht.

By the way, hunting ship is cool - it denotes action, while a yacht is more of a passive noun.

[stranger]

I'd skip the yacht 'cause it did throw me - made me see a big double-decker white fiberglass hulk spewing out fumes as the sound system sputtered Huey Lewis.


Just a thought. If you described the yachts before using the name. Describe that the nobles go hunting in sleek wooden hunting boats. Then use the word yacht. Readers will then associate the word yacht with what you described rather than the white fiberglass hulk

[zornhau]

In another story, I used castle terminology, like curtain wall, portcullis, and keep. One reader complained, but I decided that, not only were the terms correct, but most readers of fiction in historical settings would be comfortable with the terms, and the context would help define any unfamiliar words.

God's Teeth! This happened to me too. Some people don't know what crenelations are. Still haven't decided what to do about this!

[FraserRonald]

I guess, in this instance, it could also depend on what purpose the vessel serves. Is it a small, fast sailing vessel? Could it also be called a schooner? Or, you could describe it and term it a "jacht," which is a cool term and both historically accurate and suitably different from modern English to have people think of it as a "fantasy" word.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Cheers all!

[AnneMarble]

I guess, in this instance, it could also depend on what purpose the vessel serves. Is it a small, fast sailing vessel? Could it also be called a schooner? Or, you could describe it and term it a "jacht," which is a cool term and both historically accurate and suitably different from modern English to have people think of it as a "fantasy" word.

Unless I change my mind again (heh heh), they're small, fast vessels that nobles hire -- I guess to visit each other, go on long hunting trips, and have wild wild wild parties. This particular yacht, or jacht, or whatever will be painted black with silver trimming, and the captain and crew all wear black leather and look hot. :o Then again, at least I won't be accused of writing Tolkien rip-offs. ;)

Hmmm. This will give me an excuse to read a couple of those sailing magazines again... Oh, and I found a page devoted to Thames sailing barges (http://www.thamesbarge.org.uk/)

[Aconite]

and the captain and crew all wear black leather and look hot.

Just making sure: You *do* know what happens to leather that gets wet, don't you? Is that part of your plan?

[AnneMarble]

Just making sure: You *do* know what happens to leather that gets wet, don't you? Is that part of your plan?
Ooh, good point. That could be a problem... Maybe just the captain is in leather. He's so cool that waves and rain wouldn't dare hit him. ;)

[James D. Macdonald]

How often do you see the yacht? If it's just that once, and just to set the scene, cut it. Not worth the trouble. If major parts of the action depend on there being yachts in this world you might consider going all out and calling it a jachtschip.

Or just call 'em yachts and figure that everything is in translation anyway. Don't forget to describe the vessel so folks won't expect to see Ted Turner at the helm.

Sailing ships are one of the classic places writers get into trouble (the other two are horses and guns). You can't refer to a spinnaker in a medieval fantasy.

Heave away you parish rigged bums,
Way hey roll and go,
Take your hands from your peckers and don't suck your thumbs,
To me rollicking randy dandy, o!

[AnneMarble]

How often do you see the yacht? If it's just that once, and just to set the scene, cut it. Not worth the trouble. If major parts of the action depend on there being yachts in this world you might consider going all out and calling it a jachtschip.
They spend a lot of time on it, fleeing the palace in the guise of two noblewomen partying with their servant. Some characters also spend time on a barge transporting bat guano to the palace. (I decided they needed to be forced to spend time near an embarrassing and icky product.) I swear, I originally wasn't going to have any barges, yachts, dinghies, whatever. But then I realized that the parts of the outline where they escaped through the forest were dull. Then the other characters didn't want to hang around twiddling their thumbs, so they got passage on a barge going toward the palace. So now, I have to find those books on sailing ships I bought...

Or just call 'em yachts and figure that everything is in translation anyway. Don't forget to describe the vessel so folks won't expect to see Ted Turner at the helm.
Eek! That's a scary image! ;) I do think that if I called it a yacht and then said it was made of wood, most people will understand. That is, unless I can think of a cool name, like hunt-ship.

Sailing ships are one of the classic places writers get into trouble (the other two are horses and guns). You can't refer to a spinnaker in a medieval fantasy.
Would that be like having two characters in a Medieval setting referring to a silhouette? :) (That's one of those words that has become so accepted that we might use it without checking when it came into being...)

[Jamesaritchie]

I'd skip the yacht 'cause it did throw me - made me see a big double-decker white fiberglass hulk spewing out fumes as the sound system sputtered Huey Lewis.

And yeah, it is irritating to have to write in a way that you're not misunderstood.

Like I wrote to a friend that the Full Moon coming up on the 21st will be one of the biggest of the year, thinking he'd "get it," but no, he wrote back that the Full Moon is on the 22nd. Yeah, it is, and every calendar will say so, but if you check an almanac, it's actually full at 12:15 AM (EST), so it's more full on the night of the 21st than the 22nd. (Which is cool 'cause it's also the Summer Solstice.)

So I've found that unless you write out the whole deal like that, people never get it. They don't bother to look up stuff, but just have knee-jerk reactions. Just as I did with the yacht.

By the way, hunting ship is cool - it denotes action, while a yacht is more of a passive noun.

Well, actually the moon is more full on the MORNING of the 22nd, not the night of the 21st. The night of the 21st ends at midnight, which is when the morning of the 22nd begins.

[James D. Macdonald]

Well, if they spend a lot of time on it -- if it's a yacht call it a yacht. If it's a dhow call it a dhow. If it's a 26' motor whaleboat consider using a different watercraft.

A period vessel with a period name? People read to be informed as well as entertained.

[Ken Schneider]

One person saw that excerpt and said that I'd have to change the
word "yacht." I suppose she isn't familiar with the origins of the word
and thinks that it's a modern word.

I know I am a tad late in coming on this subject-topic, but.

We need to understand that these folks may not have the knowledge of the English language as writers do.

I learned what the word-Albeit- meant from reading Conan novels as a youngster.

The problem is two fold.
First- The reader will learn from your knowledge if they seek, But will they.

Two- They'll think you are an idiot.

Either way, it's your prose, write it. If they are reading it, they bought it already.

Turn the tables on those who ask, and tell them the meaning of the word they are contesting. They won't challenge you again.

[Sharon Mock]

If you're using the word accurately and appropriately, I wouldn't change it unless you're asked to by an editor.

I'm still hung up on the idea of "yacht" being more passive than "hunting ship," myself. Since when did nouns have voice?

[stranger]

Would that be like having two characters in a Medieval setting referring to a silhouette? :) (That's one of those words that has become so accepted that we might use it without checking when it came into being...)

I don't know how many people would (a) know and (b) care if you use a word like silhouette, which is of modern origin, in a medival setting. It's translation, we're using modern words not writing in olde english.

This is different to using concepts that wouldn't be familiar to medival people (The dragon rocketed upwards, roaring like a steam engine!!!!)

[mistri]

My fantasy is not set in medieval England (and I don't think it's desperately medieval in tone, either). I'm translating what people from another world, not Earth, are saying, and I treat it that way.

Well, mostly. I don't double-check stuff, but I am quite aware of the words when I'm line-editing, and do look out for obvious modern words.

[FraserRonald]

This particular yacht, or jacht, or whatever will be painted black with silver trimming, and the captain and crew all wear black leather and look hot.

Then may I suggest the term hot-yacht? Heiss-jacht just doesn't sound right. And it's just lost on schön-jacht :banana:

[Steve 211]

I'm still hung up on the idea of "yacht" being more passive than "hunting ship," myself. Since when did nouns have voice?


Hey Sharon - when I said a yacht was more of a "passive noun" compared to hunting barge, I was just referring to the usual passive vs. action verb choice. Never thought of nouns being included in that till trying to explain why "hunting barge" sounded better than "yacht" - with one you expect action, while with the other you expect a leisurely day.

[Lenora Rose]

Some of this sounds like Jo Walton's Description of the "Tiffany Syndrome".

http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/archives/005442.html#55437

It's not talking down to the readers to avoid calling someone Tiffany, or callign a shoip a yacht. It's accomodating them just enough that you can get away with other, more important "real" details later. It's keeping them in the dream enough to get hooked by the rest of the story, and seduced by the captain in leather.

I like the look and feel of Jachtschip; those with any linguistics at all will understand the use of it and not feel talked down to, those without will probably just accept it and keep going the way they might not for yacht. "Hunting ship" tends to make me think of sealers or whalers on the sea, not nobles on a romp in a river. "Hunt-ship" jars with me; it looks ungrammatical and it sounds more unwieldy than hunting ship.

[Higgins]

The question is, do you want the reader to stay wrapped in the dream, the story you're creating with your words? If yacht jerks the majority of your readers out of the dream, whether the word is legitimately old or not, it's a problem.

Similarly, I used the word compost in a fantasy story. The OED has a 1258 citation--the word's been around a long, long time. But multiple readers balked at the word--it seemed too modern to them. I chose to reword the passage, calling it garden waste, because even though I knew I was using compost correctly, I didn't want to disrupt the flow of my story.

Is this dumbing-down one's writing? I think not. I'm keeping my audience in mind. I don't want to confuse them. It's why beta readers are invaluable.

In another story, I used castle terminology, like curtain wall, portcullis, and keep. One reader complained, but I decided that, not only were the terms correct, but most readers of fiction in historical settings would be comfortable with the terms, and the context would help define any unfamiliar words.

"Curtain wall" always seemed a bit confusing, but what else would you call a portcullis?

[icerose]

Why not just name the ship as they did in Pirates of the Carribean???

They never named any of the types of ships, just the names of the actual ships.

You won't grapple with historical innaccuracies, or jarring people's belief.

Honestly if I read a fantasy staged in midevil times I would raise an eyebrow and wonder why the author never bothered to research the actual names of ships that existed then, like Spooners, and such. Why make up something new when a great system that we can easily research already exists???

So I would suggest either sticking with researching actual ships that existed, find the one that best fits your description and use that with your own application of uniforms and paint, or don't mention the class of ship at all, merely mention the name and enter the description.

Sara