What is it like?

[Billie_Joe00]

I really really am like such a new person to this whole novel writing thing. I've been wanting to write one for ages, and I have started one, but since coming on this site I have learnt so much about what you have to do. I didn't have a clue about the 250 words a page thing, or how you have to provide loads of things when submitting. It's been really helpful! However i'm really starting to doubt that I could ever possibly write over 50,000 words. It just seems like so much! I don't know if i'm creative enough for that!
But i'm really interested to know what kind of money you can expect when you've had a book published. I like to write, and the achievement alone will feel amazing, but it would be good to know what kind of money I would be entering into. If i'm at all good enough to get published.
Thanks :D

[Cathy C]

LOL! :ROFL: You're going to be extremely fortunate if you can get any published authors to tell you their salaries, Billie_Joe00!


What an author makes depends on a number of things. First is genre, or where on the shelf it will be stocked. Next it depends on whether you're published by a small press or large press. A small press is one that only prints a few thousand copies and stocks them in local or regional stores. A large press is one that prints tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of copies and stocks them in every bookseller to grocery and discount store. Obviously, a large press is going to pay an author more than a small press.

Generally speaking, a publisher will pay as an advance the TOTAL amount that it expects the book to earn for the author anyway. Of course, the author's job is to beat the bet so s/he can collect more money later, known as royalties. Even if you find out what advance an author has been paid, that doesn't mean it's all the author will earn, because -- as the saying goes, "backlist is the gift that gives forever." A "backlist" is an older title that isn't a new release. But as an author gains prominence, and as new readers find new releases, those old titles continue to sell to new readers. So, there's no way of knowing how much an author earns.

But a romance writer named Brenda Hiatt has been keeping a list of the average advances some of the major publishers pay. If you want to look, it's at:

http://www.karenafox.com/money.htm

Just so you know, an "earn-out" is the TOTAL amount the book will ever earn, and unless otherwise stated, the royalty percentage is based on the cover price of the book. Most of these are mass market paperback publishers.

Don't know if that answers your question, but it might be the best you will get! :)

Cathy

[James D. Macdonald]

I really really am like such a new person to this whole novel writing thing. I've been wanting to write one for ages, and I have started one, but since coming on this site I have learnt so much about what you have to do.

Welcome.


I didn't have a clue about the 250 words a page thing, or how you have to provide loads of things when submitting.

250 words/page is just formatting. Don't even concern yourself with what you need to provide when submitting until you have a finished manuscript.

(The short answer, if you must know, is: a) A manuscript. If you don't have that, nothing else is important. b) A SASE (self-addressed-stamped-envelope) so that you can find out what the agent or publisher says. c) A cover letter. You may also need d) A synopsis.)


It's been really helpful! However i'm really starting to doubt that I could ever possibly write over 50,000 words. It just seems like so much! I don't know if i'm creative enough for that!

One word at a time, one sentence at a time, one page at a time. It adds up.

But i'm really interested to know what kind of money you can expect when you've had a book published.

If the publisher isn't offering you a couple of thousand, minimum, you probably aren't interested in talking with them.


I like to write, and the achievement alone will feel amazing, but it would be good to know what kind of money I would be entering into.

Somewhere between "low" and "insultingly low." Plan on Zero, and anything more will be a happy surprise.


If i'm at all good enough to get published.
Thanks

All that takes is work.

[Carlene]

A writer much smarter than me (Anne LaMott) once said that writing a novel is like driving at night. You can only as far in front of you as your headlight beams, but you can drive the entire journey that way. Writing a novel is like that - as Jim said, one page at a time, one chapter after another. Remember, if you write one page, 250 words a day every day, at the end of a year you have a novel. No it probably won't be ready to send out - but it will be completed!

[Aconite]

FWIW, Tobias S. Buckell has "How Much Does a Science Fiction or Fantasy Writer Make?" on his website: http://www.tobiasbuckell.com/archives/001423.html. I'm not aware of a similar site for the UK market.

[maestrowork]

Start with one word, then a sentence, then a paragraph, then a scene, then a chapter...

And if your story isn't a 50,000-word one, make it 1000. Or 2000. Or 5000. Or 10,000. Or 30,000.

You don't have to build the pyramid all at once.

(God knows how many stories I've written -- some okay, some really bad -- before I attempted writing a novel. Too many. Too many.)

[KTC]

You don't have to build the pyramid all at once.

Well said, Brother! Can I get an a-men!

Just write, Billie_Joe. Just write. If it turns into a novel, more power to you. But don't try to see the finish line before you're out of the gate. It'll distract you. Like that little ditty goes about swimming...Just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. And enjoy the process. Keep writing.

[Jamesaritchie]

I
But i'm really interested to know what kind of money you can expect when you've had a book published. I like to write, and the achievement alone will feel amazing, but it would be good to know what kind of money I would be entering into. If i'm at all good enough to get published.
Thanks :D

What kind of money can you expect. Part of it depends on genre, but at a fairly large mainstream publisher, your advance should be from $5,000 to $15,000 for a first novel, though it does sometimes get higher. I've found that mysteries seem to offer a somewhat larger advance than most other genres.

If you're novel sells well, you can earn additional money from royalties. Sometimes a LOT of additional money.

Some writers do get stinking rich. Nora Roberts earned sixty million in 2003, and Dan Brown earned just a bit more than half that. Such writers as Stephen King, John Grisham, and Tom Clancy fall into this stinking rich category, as well. And J. K. Rowling has now earned more than a billion dollars from her novels.

In all honesty, you really can't count on earning a dime. But if you can sell novels to mainstream publishers, you can expect to earn something, and maybe more than you can spend.

As for the 50,000 words, don't sweat it. Each and every time I sit down to write a new novel I have the same thought. After page five or six I always think, "There's no way this thing is going to reach seventy or eighty or a hundred and twenty thousand words. No way at all."

But it always does.

[Sassenach]

A writer much smarter than me (Anne LaMott) once said that writing a novel is like driving at night. You can only as far in front of you as your headlight beams, but you can drive the entire journey that way.

Good advice--but it was E.L. Doctorow.

[aruna]

But i'm really interested to know what kind of money you can expect when you've had a book published. I like to write, and the achievement alone will feel amazing, but it would be good to know what kind of money I would be entering into. If i'm at all good enough to get published.
Thanks :D

Billy Joe,
here's a good article about the reality of writing that I found on one of the older threads on this forum. SOme of the other newbies may not have read it yet:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~irvinei/publishing.html

My advice:
write one word at a time, as Uncle Jim says.
Keep your expectations low; write for the satisfation of it, make your work as perfect as you can, and each piece of writing better than the last. But don't expect to be paid for it. That way you avoid disappointment, and if it does brings you money, that's an added bonus. Anything else woudl be madness!

[Garpy]

50,000 words may seem like a mountain. But if you nibble away at it say....1000 words a day, you'll have written that inside of 2 months. Or....take it really easy and just do 500 words a day, and it'll take 3-4 months.

I'm easily intimidated by the 100k + figure that I typically aim for. But what I do is plan out my story, assign a guestimate word count per scene/chapter, and then aim for that.

[MadScientistMatt]

Just out of juvenile and senile curiosity, what is the deal with advances? As you said, it is the publishers payment of what it 'expects' the author to earn. If the book 'sells more', than of course royalties take care of the added revenue for the author. But, what if the book 'sells less' than expectations? Does it mean that the publisher is left to deal with the loss?

Yes.

[James D. Macdonald]

But, what if the book 'sells less' than expectations? Does it mean that the publisher is left to deal with the loss?


If the book doesn't earn out, the publisher eats the loss. In practical terms the author was paid at a higher-than-contracted-for royalty rate.

Remember that it's entirely possible for a publisher to make a profit on a book that doesn't earn out.

If the publisher asks for the money back, they aren't a normal commercial publisher and you'll start seeing warning signs against them.

[maestrowork]

Yes, the publisher loses... that's why smaller presses offer small or no advances at all. And first-time author usually don't get a "huge" advance. Once in a while you hear about some first-timer getting a six-figure advance -- well, the publisher must REALLY believe in the book. Sometimes that gamble doesn't pay off. But don't worry, the publisher makes up for it with other books -- it becomes an accounting game.

[Cathy C]

What they said! :D But writing is the first step, and money comes later. You have to believe that you'll beat the odds (which are admittedly steep), but an awful lot of people do. 195,000 new titles were produced last year and it's safe to presume that at least half were new writers. Of the millions producing, it doesn't sound like much, but the harder you work at perfecting a good story, the better likelihood that it will be you.

I agree that a thousand should be your starting point when looking for an advance. More is better, of course!

Good luck!

[Garpy]

Another point to bear in mind when considering advances is that if you get awarded an artificially large advance...say because your agent is really good.....but your book sales fail to earn out the advance, you can get a bad reputation. There are 1st timer writers that got whopping advances but had few sales, and that pretty much taints them with regard to trying to place a second novel. So...it might be fantastic to get an unlikely 100k advance....but you better hope the book sales are fantastic.

[pixiejuice]

Just for curiosity's sake...

Let's say you did just get the regular first-timer advance, a couple or few thousand, and then your book did really really well. Maybe someone wanted to make a movie out of it, or something, and it became a best seller and your name was everywhere.

Would you then make up in royalties what you would have if you'd have gotten the six-figure advance to start with? Or did you kind of miss the boat and hope for a bigger advance on the next one?

[aruna]

Just for curiosity's sake...

Let's say you did just get the regular first-timer advance, a couple or few thousand, and then your book did really really well. Maybe someone wanted to make a movie out of it, or something, and it became a best seller and your name was everywhere.

Would you then make up in royalties what you would have if you'd have gotten the six-figure advance to start with? Or did you kind of miss the boat and hope for a bigger advance on the next one?

Given the choice between a big (say, mif five-figures and up) advance and not earning out, and a small advance and the book becoming a bestseller, the latter is far preferable. In the first case, the publisher will drop you like a hot cake, you'll ge a bad rep inthe industry, and you'l have to start again from scratch; in the second, they'll be chasing you and your advances will get bigger with every book.
The trouble with small advances, though, is that not much is put into promotion fromthe publisher. If you get a small advance be prepared to work your but off marketing your book yourself - just as if you had self-published. In fact, do that even if you get a large advance.
It's a very, very tough writing world out there and if you want to make a living out of writing, you've got to be very pro-active. Unless you win some big prize at the very start or get put on the Granta list or the critics discover you by some chance (this might happen if you are young, beautiful, female and ethnic, or you get on Oprah, or some big shot puts a quote on the cover of your book) and dance around you even before your book is published.
Fat chance!

[pixiejuice]

Well, that's not quite what I was asking.

Suppose you are a best seller in both situations... is it better to get the big advance up front, or small advance and then royalties... is there any difference at all???

[MadScientistMatt]

Well, that's not quite what I was asking.

Suppose you are a best seller in both situations... is it better to get the big advance up front, or small advance and then royalties... is there any difference at all???

Assuming the book earns out its advance and the royalty percentage is the same, you would get the same total amount of money for an advance anywhere between zero and the total royalties the book earns. The only difference is whether it is paid before or after the books sell.

[Cathy C]

It's definitely a timing thing, pixiejuice. Publishers work advances a couple of ways. Some pay it all up front when the contract is signed. But for a first time author, that's usually only if the advance is small. If it's $10K or above, they'll probably split it into three pieces -- one third on signing, one third on "delivery and acceptance" of the manuscript, and one third upon publication. However, the bigger the advance, the better the publisher believes it will do, which is a good thing.


Let's talk about the advance for a bit, because a lot of writers really don't understand some of the terminology that publishers use. Many people, using perfectly common logic, would assume that "on signing" meant just that. But often that's accompanied by language that says that timelines don't start to run until it's FULLY signed. With a large publisher that can be months later. Our latest contract is dated January 16th, but the final signature doesn't appear until May.

Likewise, "delivery and acceptance" is an often confusing concept. Most would think it's when you first submitted the manuscript to the publisher. Nope. That used to be the case, and CAN be the case for well-established authors whose work the publisher knows is in pretty final form when it's sent in. But for a newbie, "delivery and acceptance" occurs AFTER the editor sends you a letter with the changes to be made (yes, YOU will be making the edits). The editor will then look at what you've done and either suggest more edits, or accept it for publication. THIS is the delivery and acceptance talked about in a contract. This event can occur from three to twelve months after you sign the contract, depending on the extent of the edits required.

Of course, there's a good reason for it from the publisher's standpoint. You have no track record. You might reject every single edit the editor suggests. If that happens, the publisher is allowed to REJECT the book, even after the contract is signed. Or, you might fall ill or die and the book might never get published. Sh*t happens, so the publisher is covering its own tail by ensuring that they don't later have to get the money BACK.

Now, royalties are a whole 'nother ball game. First, you have royalty periods. Those are generally deemed to be from January through the end of June, and from July through the end of December. Some publishers work on an annual basis, and some work on a quarterly basis, but most are semi-annual. When the books are first shipped to bookstores, they are considered "sold" by the publisher. BUT -- and this is a big BUT -- the bookstore is either going to sell the books to the public, or not sell them. If they don't sell them, they will RETURN the books to the publisher (or in the case of mass paperback, they will return just the book covers and destroy the actual book).

Since the publisher doesn't know whether or not the books will get returned until the bookstore tells them so, they will do what they call a "reserve against returns" or "reserve against remainders" which locks up a portion (often a very LARGE portion) of your royalties until a reasonable time after the sales, often up to a year later, before they will actually pay you for the books sold.

So, if you're looking for FAST cash, then go for a big advance.

[aruna]

Well, that's not quite what I was asking.

Suppose you are a best seller in both situations... is it better to get the big advance up front, or small advance and then royalties... is there any difference at all???

Pixie,
It's always nice and very tempting to take the money up front and run. The trouble is, you just can't tell in advance what is going to happen, how readers are going to behave. That's why I answered the way I did. In the long term, I think it's far better to get a small advance and build yourself from book to book. If I had the choice, and could afford it, ie money was not an issue for me, that's what I'd do. I'm going to look for an article by a British agent which illustrates what I mean; it talks about authors who get huge advances, but after a few years nobody has ever heard of them. You don't want that situation.
The trouble, is most people, when they are offered a huge advance, immediataley see themselves as having already "made it". They just don't realise that that is no guarantee at all; that the book might yet fail on the market - and that is death to you as an author with that publisher, and generally, with that name.
It's true that if you need quick money, then you probably have no alternative than to take the huge advance.
I think the best solution would be if , say you are offered that five or six-figure advance, to make very sure that the marketing budget is appropriately high, and work your *** off to get people to buy the book. There's a lot of talk of word-of-mouth, but in my experience, when a book comes out, nobody's going to buy it if it's on the back shelves. Word of mouth needs a certain momentum to begin with and it's simply not going to happen unless enough peole read the book from the moment of its release. That is very difficult to manipulate, with hundreds of new books coming on the market each month. Why should they pick YOURS?

OK, to answer your question absolutely specifically, I'll tell you of my own experience. My first novel, Of Marriageable Age, got a very big advance but never earned out. That publisher doesn't want to know me.
The French translation of the same novel got a tiny advance, but became a best-seller in that country. In the long run, it has earned me more than the British version, and I could live from those royalties quite comfortably for a few years, as well as from royalties from the second novel, and the French publisher is desperate for a new book from me.
Whereas in Britain I have to start all over again, probably with a new name. Given the choice, I'd take the French version, if I could afford to.
(Of course, it would be even better to get the money up front with a high advance AND become a best-seller, as far as making a living is concerned. But you simply don't know that beforehand, when the offer is being made.)

Usually, if you did get a large advance for your first book, you can also get one for your second and third books: publishers are eager to sign you up for these even BEFORE the first one has gone on the market. But if the first one nose dives then your situation is even worse; whenthe second one comes out they are scared to put marketing money into it, that one nose-dives too, and you can just forget the third one. That means that THREE books have not earned out! They hate you!

So you see, it's necessary that you keep your head screwed on tightly when offers are being made. Don't be seduced by high advances, and don't get euphoric thinking you're the next Stephen King. The very opposite can happen. Be careful. I would try to work out a deal with a publisher if I got such an offer; perhaps arranging with them to take less money myself and for them to put more into the marketing; at the same time letting the word out that did get a large advance, so that the media takes an interest in you.
The trouble is, I simply can't afford that option any more.

Hope your question is answreed better now!

[Pencilone]

Pixie,
The trouble is, I simply can't afford that option any more.



Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Do you think that from this point of view is it better to write under a pseudonym from the start?

[aruna]

Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Do you think that from this point of view is it better to write under a pseudonym from the start?

Luckily for me, I did write under a pseudonym - on that publisher's recommendation. They thought that my real name was not terribly marketable, and it began with W, which they said is placed near the bottom of bookshelves. Bollocks! Books (at least here in the UK) are simply rowed alphabetically, and it just depends how many books there are of a certain letter. W can be top, middle or bottom.
I am hoping to make a come-back using my real name, which I always wanted to use anyway. This'll be discussed when I find an agent and new publisher.

Some of you may remember the article by Jane Austen Doe, on Uncle Jim;s thread.

Here's a follow on article which is very interesting:

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blosxom.cgi/2004/03/22/

[aruna]

I'd also like to add that it is personally MUCH more satisfying to be earning decent royalties, than to have that nagging feeling at the back of your mind that you someone put their faith in you big time, and you lost them a lot of money - yes, even if that someone is a cut-throat publisher which doesn't give a damn about you.
I find it best to keep a respectful distance to the whole business; remain confident, but not get carried away by dreams of the big time; hope for the best but expect the worst; to always be a beginner, and humble, and not take the lucky runs for granted. Thinking about the book itself and making it as good as I can, not about the rewards it might (or might not) bring.
Al in all, it's a great experience, failures and all!

[aruna]

Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Do you think that from this point of view is it better to write under a pseudonym from the start?

Pencilone, i didn't answer your question adequately. I think choosing a peudonym right from the start is simply too pessimistic; at the back of your mind you are perhaps assuming you might fail. I'd say start with the name you want to write under, and do your best to make it work.

[aruna]

Here's than agent's article i promised. It gives another very realistic and critical view of the business f(big/small advances) from the point of view of the agent.

http://www.thebookseller.com/?did=12680&srq=THE%20DEAD%20HAND%20OF%20SAFE%20BETS%20&sbr=1&dr=2005,06,17-1999,10,01&atl=

[maestrowork]

I like what Antonio Villaraigosa (Los Angeles' Mayor elect, the first Hispanic in that office since 1872) said (I paraphrase): ... try not to look so far ahead that you trip all over it. Just do your job. And when you work hard and do your job right, the rest will come naturally.

[A.REX]

My advice:
write one word at a time, as Uncle Jim says.
Keep your expectations low; write for the satisfation of it, make your work as perfect as you can, and each piece of writing better than the last. But don't expect to be paid for it. That way you avoid disappointment, and if it does brings you money, that's an added bonus. Anything else woudl be madness!

I couldn't say it any better. Keep writing and don't fall into discouragement when you get shot down. Sometimes you've written great stuff, but getting it looked at (when the market is already saturated with a garbage barge of manuscripts from shitewriters who think they're the next Stephen King) is difficult!

For example, I've placed 2 of my 4 books as finalists in writing conference contests. Though the judges liked them, the editor/publisher may not. They may think the market has enough of said subject in print or won't support said subject or novel idea. You've got to be the little engine that could and keep 'thinking you can'.

I've never been published other than short works so I can't say how books are picked up, but I can tell you I've read KILLER manuscripts that have never made it past an editor or agent and I've read published feces from all of the major houses. My dream is one day to be published by one of the big 5, but hey... I'll keep writing with one hand and keep my fingers crossed with the other.

[Jamesaritchie]

What they said! :D But writing is the first step, and money comes later. You have to believe that you'll beat the odds (which are admittedly steep), but an awful lot of people do. 195,000 new titles were produced last year and it's safe to presume that at least half were new writers. Of the millions producing, it doesn't sound like much, but the harder you work at perfecting a good story, the better likelihood that it will be you.

I agree that a thousand should be your starting point when looking for an advance. More is better, of course!

Good luck!

With commercial publishers, nowhere near half were by new writers. Only a very small percentage of novels released each year are by new writers.

[Jamesaritchie]

Luckily for me, I did write under a pseudonym - on that publisher's recommendation. They thought that my real name was not terribly marketable, and it began with W, which they said is placed near the bottom of bookshelves. Bollocks! Books (at least here in the UK) are simply rowed alphabetically, and it just depends how many books there are of a certain letter. W can be top, middle or bottom.
I am hoping to make a come-back using my real name, which I always wanted to use anyway. This'll be discussed when I find an agent and new publisher.

Some of you may remember the article by Jane Austen Doe, on Uncle Jim;s thread.

Here's a follow on article which is very interesting:

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blosxom.cgi/2004/03/22/

Actually, there is a good deal of truth to name placement. Bookstores generally adjust the racks for the number of books in a given section, so a name that starts with "W" will almost always be much lower down and well to the right.

This is particularly true with genre fiction. Placement is just an average, but studies do show you have a real sales disadvantage when your last name begins with any letter after "T."

This can be made up for, of course, but it's a real phenomenom.

[Mike Martyn]

With commercial publishers, nowhere near half were by new writers. Only a very small percentage of novels released each year are by new writers.

When I first read the above quote, I found it very depressing. But then I reminded myself that I enjoy writing. It's often the best two hours of the day. So I'll just keep plugging away puzzling out character develpoment and plot.

Sure, I'll try to get published but if I never do, at least I'll have a nice full trunk!

[aruna]

Another article on first-novel advances:

http://www.justinelarbalestier.com/Musings/Musings2004/firstnoveladvances.htm

[WriteRead]

How would I make a full blown novel, that is a 50k words one, or maybe more, you ask.

Well, Rome wasn't built in one day, as the saying goes and there's an old Romanian folk saying, which says "The vinegar is made slowly, slowly".

I lectured for a few yrs and I remember when I gave my first lecture thinking "How in the world will I fill 45 minutes (the formal lecture length)?"

Oh, my! Once I started rambling you couldn't stop me. A sentence brought another and a question brought another question and there I was well beyond a full hr w even more to say.

Same w writing. Just write and you'll be amazed to see how it spills from your brain and heart onto the page/screen.

Good luck,

Dan

[WriteRead]

You said:

My dream is one day to be published by one of the big 5, but hey...

Who are those big five? Curious. Simon and Shuster is there, I guess, huh?

Dan

[Jamesaritchie]

You said:



Who are those big five? Curious. Simon and Shuster is there, I guess, huh?

Dan

I suspect he means the big five conglomerates, each of which has many book lines and imprints.

[James D. Macdonald]

Not in any particular order:

Time-Warner
Bertelsmann
Von Holtzbrinck
News Corp.
Viacom

================

Nor are those the only large conglomerates with publishing divisions. Nor are conglomerates the only publishers who can get bookstores placement.

Thinking about who-owns-who, rather than thinking about your novel, is pointless.

[WriteRead]

Hi, James!

I guess you're responsible for the thread of Learning, right? I find your thread exceedingly edu'ive and info'ive. Pls excuse me for this, but I only now took the time to look into it. I apologize b/c it's a sin to miss you http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

I think, f... it, that the way we, the writers have to put up w all the scandalous approach, in my opinion, of pitching, covering, querying, proposing, begging, cow-towing, bowing, begging, crawling and tip-toeing around them agents, editors and publishers, is not to be believed. I may sound extreme, but I'm extremely sensitive to the way I'm perceived and considered in the objective world, when I know my value, and I know mine. I don't lose much sleep on what another would think of me, as a person, but the way the pub'ing industry makes me fret and beg, is simply making me boil.
I certainly feel looked down upon by them.
I know they got a profit pt here, but hey, I care about me, right?
Aw, well, the world is not a university justice course, I know, so I dance to their tune, what can i do?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You said:

Thinking about who-owns-who, rather than thinking about your novel, is pointless.
Of course, it's just that I'm a collector of info, esp in the fields of my interest, so I gotta know all the i's and t's of it beside writing, which I do religiously. Almost, ha-ha http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif My harvest is not that bad, actually.

Looking forward to read your posts.

See you around,

Dan

[Aconite]

I may sound extreme, but I'm extremely sensitive to the way I'm perceived and considered in the objective world, when I know my value, and I know mine. I don't lose much sleep on what another would think of me, as a person, but the way the pub'ing industry makes me fret and beg, is simply making me boil.
I certainly feel looked down upon by them.

I've never felt this, and never resented that getting published involves jumping through some hoops. So did grad school, so does a job interview, so does getting a mortgage and getting married and lots of other things. The editors I've worked with and the others I've met clearly respect authors, and none of them expect me to act undignified; nor have I ever had to do so to get published. I know my worth. I treat myself and others with respect and expect the same from them, and at the same time I understand that being treated with respect does not mean having things my own way. No, the publishing world isn't ideal, but it's not ideal for anyone involved. Agents and editors and publishers and other writers are not my enemies. It's just the nature of the field.

[MadScientistMatt]

I think, f... it, that the way we, the writers have to put up w all the scandalous approach, in my opinion, of pitching, covering, querying, proposing, begging, cow-towing, bowing, begging, crawling and tip-toeing around them agents, editors and publishers, is not to be believed. I may sound extreme, but I'm extremely sensitive to the way I'm perceived and considered in the objective world, when I know my value, and I know mine. I don't lose much sleep on what another would think of me, as a person, but the way the pub'ing industry makes me fret and beg, is simply making me boil.
I certainly feel looked down upon by them.
I know they got a profit pt here, but hey, I care about me, right?
Aw, well, the world is not a university justice course, I know, so I dance to their tune, what can i do?

When you get down to it, that's not too different from how you go about getting a job in the corporate world. I graduated from college in a pretty bad time economically, and applied to over 80 companies (I've even got a list of their names somewhere) before I landed a job.

[WriteRead]

I have nothing against scrutinizing while picking and choosing the right writer. That's perfectly understandable.

What I have much against and resent is the condescence which they, agents, editors and publishers exercise and show w/o blinking or thinking twice.

For ex.: I dislike to the extreme the fact that when a cover or query letter opens w Dear Sir, and it's a woman who is reading it and you HAD to know it (so ridiculous), or vice versa, they say openly that they don't go on reading it. They throw it to the trash can. It was written black on paper. I read it w my own eyes in quite a few articles and interviews in which they expressed themselves in this outrageous, arrogant and haughty manner, for I do think it's outrageous, arrogant and haughty.

Same if they encounter a few typos, or a mistake about the establishment, or the editor.

This is condescending and patronizing attitude, totally unacceptable for relationships between grown ups who are total strangers to one another.

Another ex.: I can't remember in which thread I read it, but it's here, somewhere. The poster said that he received a rejection saying that they don't need another so and so (a name of a well-known writer, apparently, was mentioned). Now, that's shameful in my opinion.

Many more ex's can be brought to show how snobbishly and arrogantly they behave. Simple mistakes are used as an excuse for throwing us out of the window. It's like telling a child "go and write a hundred times 'I made a mistake' "

Another thing I resent is the outright request made to the writer by all the other players in the field to detail the Market and the Marketing issues.

This totally defies me.

Isn't this supposed to be the agent and the sditor's specialty? Why do I have to research endlessly and to bring data and statistics, instead of writing? So they can repeat us and say that "The writer says that the market is so and so and the marketing should be done in such and such way"? So what are they doing there? Just forwarding papers to each other, which I had done, ultimately?

I truly think this should change. This should be a major reshuffle in the industry.

Let the Writer write and the Agent research the market and the Editor tell to the marketing dpt to move their a.. and start doing something.

A very simple but intelligent task assignment, AND W/O patronizing and insulting the individual and the basic intelligence.

Dan

[maestrowork]

It IS like the corporate world.
Some people land their first jobs at the big companies, entry-level positions (some authors land a contract with the big publishers as first-time authors). They still have to work their way up -- some may have to do it for years and still can't break out of middle management. Some take advantage of the opportunities and resources and become top execs... It make take them 25 years, but eventually they become the CEO.

Some people land their first jobs with small companies/startups (authors who sign with small presses). And if they're good, they become the "big fish" in a small pond relatively quickly. They build their reputation, starting small... Some people stay with the small guys because they have more control and they feel more appreciated -- but they lack the upward mobility and the opportunities or resources available at big companies. Some eventually join the big ones and because of their expertise, they climb the corporate ladder much faster...

Some prefer to be enterpreneurs (self-publish). Usually they have a niche market and they know their area of expertise and they'd rather have complete control of their business, win, lose or draw. Eventually, if they're successful, they get brought by the big ones....

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. We have to start somewhere, and we have to work HARD to achieve success. They're just different paths, and we navigate the paths accordingly.

Working for a big company means more money and more opportunities, but it also means you're usually a small fish in a big pond -- most people become obscure... only the TRUE STARS rise to the top. Of course, when you are at the top, you have fame and fortune.

Working for a small company means less money and fewer oppportunities, but you end up steering the direction of the company and do something unique and interesting. More chances for you to become a big fish in a small pond...

It doesn't mean one is better than the other... just different.

I started working for very small companies. As a matter of fact, my first company was a start-up. Eventually, I got a lot of experience and expertise under my belt and, when I was ready, I joined the BIG 5 (IBM, to be exact). Money was excellent -- but I wouldn't have been able to demand that kind of compensation and bonus package had I not built my resume with the small companies. Every job change netted me at least a 15% pay raise and a promotion, so to speak.

[scribbler1382]

<Had a long pithy post but I hit the back button the side of my mouse by accident...grrrr>

Bottom line is, publishing is a business. Plain and simple. As a writer, you have to wear two hats, an artist's beret and a businessman's fedora. If you can't be bothered, then write your wonderful work and stick it in a drawer.

[Cathy C]

I guess I'm confused, WriteRead. You say that you have no problem with them picking and choosing the right writer, and yet you don't want to apply any sort of standards for them to do so?

An agent is working on from a dozen to a hundred books at any given time, and an editor might be in some stage of editing twenty, all of which are on a deadline that CANNOT BE MISSED or it costs the publisher money.

So, who is to correct the typos, if every single manuscript required corrections? Who is to do the research? As maestro and scribbler both said, it's a BUSINESS, and agents and editors want to go home at 5:00 to be with the families too, and have weekends to mow the yard, and have family vacations in the summer. If the author isn't responsible for proper preparation of their manuscript, including making it as near perfect as possible, then the entire system would collapse and everybody down the line, from printers to distributors to booksellers would be impacted.

Don't think that the author's responsibility in proper writing is a small thing that needs "correcting," because it's not. That skill is the only thing that keeps the system running, so that the publisher can keep their in-house expenses down while still making a profit. New books MUST be released each month for a price that can be afforded by the average reader. Increase the price of a paperback by $1 or $2 each, and a lot more people will add their name to the waiting list at the library and a lot less publishers will be buying.

[Mistook]

I guess maybe it helps to think about it this way. If you self-published, completely with your own money, then you would have to wear every hat from author, to editor, to proofreader, to market analyist. You'd also have to be one hell of a salesman, which would require very sharp interpersonal skills. You'd need to be an industry unto yourself.

The actual industry more or less requires you to aspire to that level of competence in all arenas, but offers to sand off the rough edges, and front the money. Is that a fair assessment of the situation?

I'll admit it does feel a little absurd these days, when tasks in most other industries are so compartmentalized. It's like asking a yuppie from the suburbs to go into the mountains, build his own cabin, and live off the land. The industry provides a first-aid kit, and an emergency helicopter.

But if you want to see the nightmare scenario of task-delegation, look at the music industry. If the fiction industry went this direction then you'd have one team of writers to create a plot, another team to create characters, another to outline, to write, etc, etc - and at the end of the line would be a super-model to pose for the back-cover shot of an author who only exists on paper.

If that were the case, the best you could hope for would be to get on a plotting team, or a reasearch team, or a character team. It would be the death of individual authorship.

Sometimes knowing how to build a log cabin is a very good thing.

[Jamesaritchie]

I have nothing against scrutinizing while picking and choosing the right writer. That's perfectly understandable.

What I have much against and resent is the condescence which they, agents, editors and publishers exercise and show w/o blinking or thinking twice.

For ex.: I dislike to the extreme the fact that when a cover or query letter opens w Dear Sir, and it's a woman who is reading it and you HAD to know it (so ridiculous), or vice versa, they say openly that they don't go on reading it. They throw it to the trash can. It was written black on paper. I read it w my own eyes in quite a few articles and interviews in which they expressed themselves in this outrageous, arrogant and haughty manner, for I do think it's outrageous, arrogant and haughty.

Same if they encounter a few typos, or a mistake about the establishment, or the editor.

This is condescending and patronizing attitude, totally unacceptable for relationships between grown ups who are total strangers to one another.

Another ex.: I can't remember in which thread I read it, but it's here, somewhere. The poster said that he received a rejection saying that they don't need another so and so (a name of a well-known writer, apparently, was mentioned). Now, that's shameful in my opinion.

Many more ex's can be brought to show how snobbishly and arrogantly they behave. Simple mistakes are used as an excuse for throwing us out of the window. It's like telling a child "go and write a hundred times 'I made a mistake' "

Another thing I resent is the outright request made to the writer by all the other players in the field to detail the Market and the Marketing issues.

This totally defies me.

Isn't this supposed to be the agent and the sditor's specialty? Why do I have to research endlessly and to bring data and statistics, instead of writing? So they can repeat us and say that "The writer says that the market is so and so and the marketing should be done in such and such way"? So what are they doing there? Just forwarding papers to each other, which I had done, ultimately?

I truly think this should change. This should be a major reshuffle in the industry.

Let the Writer write and the Agent research the market and the Editor tell to the marketing dpt to move their a.. and start doing something.

A very simple but intelligent task assignment, AND W/O patronizing and insulting the individual and the basic intelligence.

Dan

We live in two very different worlds, I guess. For be, there's never been any begging,

I honestly don't understand your comments in any way. You have apparently dealt with some very strange people. By and large, writers do write, agents research the markets, and editors simply look for publishable novels. Thwe whole point of having an agent is to take care of the business side of things.

But when sending a query to an agent, or directly to an editor, it's just nuts not to take the time to find out whether or not the agent is male or female. A writer who does this really doesn't deserve to be read.

In my personal life, when someone sends a request to me, and their letter starts out "Dear Mrs. Ritchie," I make teh natural assumption that I'm talking to some too lazy to get simple facts right, and this tells me I don't want to deal with this person anytime soon.

And from my experience, the only reason agents and editors ever throw a writer out the window is because that writer can't write well enough to keep.

But like it or not, writers who don't take the time to learn whether or not they're querying a him or a her are probably going to be just as lazy in the research they do for their. There are always exceptions, but by and large, you really can tell the quality of the writing from the care and professionalism of the writer.

A few typos? Most agents and editors will let a few go by unnoticed. But there is a limit, and a writer who is sloppy about typos is also going to be a writer who's a pain in the keester, and who will probably send you a novel that's going to be more work than it's worth.

If you want the writer to do his part, the agent to do her part, and the editor to do her part, then you need to follow through on this and understand what the writer's part really is. It's the writer's part to take the five minutes needed to learn whether or not the agent or editor is a him or a her. And it is without a doubt the writer's part to send in typo free writing.

I honestly don't even recognize the publishing world you describe. It bears no resemblance in any way to the one I've worked in all these years.

Agents and editors really are very simple beasts. They make money from finding writers who can write reasonably well, and who can tell stories the reading public will want to buy. If you can do these things, agents and editors will both beg, plead, and fall all over themselves to represent or publish your work.

If you can't do these things, you're going to be knocking on a locked door with a big "Do Not Disturb" sign hanging on it.

If you do things that can reasonably make an agent or editor believe you can't do these things, such as not taking the time to find out whether or not you're writing to a male or a female, or sending in queries and partials full of typos, you'll find yourself knocking on that same locked door, and rightfully so.

As for the agent who said he didnt need another so and so almost certainly said it because he didn't need another so and so, and what the writer submitted was so close to the other writers work that the comparison was apt. Without reading teh work, it's impossible to tell, but I can say with certainty that all the way the heck too close pale imitation fo famous writers and their works that land in the slush pile is nothing but a headache.

Now, whoever wrote that rejection might have just been having a bad day, but he might well also have been right, and often such a statement is the best thing any real writer can hear.

As for marketing, I've honestly never had an editor or agent ask me about marketing, other than to ask if I would be willing to do selected book signings and interviews. Ah, and whether or not I would be willing to paticipate in a website at the publisher's expense. I've never been told I had to do these things, just asked if I would be willing to. Well, duh!

Sometimes I've said yes, and sometimes I've said no, and the publisher is fine with it either way.

And there's darned little the marketing department can do for most writers, anyway. Three or four times out of five, marketing money is just waste, and no matter how much you air pump into the novel, it just lays there.

But I've found it's usually smaller publishers who are really insistent about the writer helping with marketing advice. Many smaller publishers can't afford a marketing department, and the writer must do more in this area.

as for

"Many more ex's can be brought to show how snobbishly and arrogantly they behave. Simple mistakes are used as an excuse for throwing us out of the window. It's like telling a child "go and write a hundred times 'I made a mistake' "

I assume "ex's" is excuses. No offense, but I do have trouble with some of your abbreviations, I get them usually, but they do slow me down. Anyway, agents and editors don't need to find excuses. Too many writers give them far more than enough reason to say "NO!" and not only no, but HELL NO!"

A mistake is one thing, but sloppy work, laziness, and the unwillingness to present yourself in a professional manner are something else altogether. If you want to be a professional, you need to behave in a professional manner, and give the agent or editor professional quality, error free writing.

But I really don't understand your attitude about agents and editors at all. There are bad apples in every field, but the picture you paint of editors and agents bears absolutely zero resemblance to the ones I've dealt with through the years. Pretty much every agent and editor I've known loves writers and writing, else they wouldn't be in the field they're in. They aren't snobbish, they do not ever look for excuses to be mean, and, in fact, most should probably be a lot meaner than they are. A fairly large number of new writers fully deserve to have their heads handed to them.

And in the end, it's your book. If you don't think enough of it to help it sell by getting rid of typos, finding out who the heck you're submitting to, and doing whatever minimal research is necessary, and it is very minimal, then why in the world should an agent or editor care two cents about it?

I mean, really, finding out whether or not you're submitting to a male or a female isn't work, it's courtesy and common sense.

[Jamesaritchie]

Not in any particular order:

Time-Warner
Bertelsmann
Von Holtzbrinck
News Corp.
Viacom

================

Nor are those the only large conglomerates with publishing divisions. Nor are conglomerates the only publishers who can get bookstores placement.

Thinking about who-owns-who, rather than thinking about your novel, is pointless.

Lasttime I check, which admittedly was two or three years back, the five conglomerates you list had about 80% of bestselling writers in their stables.

But that still leaves quite a number of bestselling writers out there, and a huge number that get into bookstores from other publishers.

[scribbler1382]

Exactly, James. I mean, if you showed up at an interview for a job at a prestigious law firm wearing cut-off shorts and a dirty tank top, scratching your back with one of your grungy flip-flops and kept calling the interviewer named John Smith "Don Smythe", do you really think you'd have a chance in hell of getting the job? I really don't understand people's attitudes when it comes to being a professional.

[aruna]

And from my experience, the only reason agents and editors ever throw a writer out the window is because that writer can't write well enough to keep.

.

I agree with everything you say, except this. When an author is dropped by an editor or publisher it often has nothing to do with the quality of the writing, but with the simple fact that their sales have not lived up to expectation - the two are not necessarily connected. Many objectively very bad writers (terrible writing, cliches, stereotype plot etc) are kept by publishing companies simply becuase the make piles of money; the public is not terribly demanding. And many authors write books their editors just love, but they sre dumped because they haven't sold well, and the aquisitions people say no.


The article I posted above by Simon Trewin says this very clearly; so, in my view, the correct wording would be "...that writer doesn't sell well enough to keep."

[Aconite]

For ex.: I dislike to the extreme the fact that when a cover or query letter opens w Dear Sir, and it's a woman who is reading it and you HAD to know it (so ridiculous), or vice versa, they say openly that they don't go on reading it. They throw it to the trash can. It was written black on paper. I read it w my own eyes in quite a few articles and interviews in which they expressed themselves in this outrageous, arrogant and haughty manner, for I do think it's outrageous, arrogant and haughty.

Same if they encounter a few typos, or a mistake about the establishment, or the editor.

This is condescending and patronizing attitude, totally unacceptable for relationships between grown ups who are total strangers to one another.

Another ex.: I can't remember in which thread I read it, but it's here, somewhere. The poster said that he received a rejection saying that they don't need another so and so (a name of a well-known writer, apparently, was mentioned). Now, that's shameful in my opinion.

Many more ex's can be brought to show how snobbishly and arrogantly they behave. Simple mistakes are used as an excuse for throwing us out of the window. It's like telling a child "go and write a hundred times 'I made a mistake' "

Dan, you seem to be one of those people who perceives any criticism as a deliberate attempt at humiliation. I live with someone like that, and I can tell you from experience that the vast majority of the time, you're reading bad intent where it isn't intended, and where most people wouldn't. Things you're taking personally aren't personal, and the examples you give of arrogance and snobbishness don't strike me as such.

As for respect: You don't bother to take the time to find out anything--even the gender--about the person you're pitching your work to, or present these people with error-free query letters or manuscripts, yet you're huffy when they don't show you the respect you think you deserve? Why should they, when you don't present yourself in a way that shows you're worthy of respect and that you respect them? You say it's ridiculous to be expected to know whether the person you're writing to is male or female. If these same editors wrote back to you and addressed you as the wrong gender, would you say, "Well, that's okay, it's no big deal," or would you say, "They can't even get my gender right! Those arrogant snobs!"

You're expected to do market research? I suspect what you're talking about is the bit in your cover letter where you point out where your book fits in its niche. Frankly, that is very basic information, and if you've written the kind of book where that's relevant, you should know it by the time the book is done. In-depth market research will be done by the publisher's team if your book is picked up for publication; they sure as hell don't have time to run it for every manuscript in the slush pile.

The "simple mistakes" you mention are usually indicative of bigger problems with the manuscript or the author's skill in one area or another that make him a bad risk for the agent or editor. Agents and editors are flooded with manuscripts. They've learned to identify the signs that one just isn't going to work. If your manuscript shows those signs, it's going to be rejected--not because they're arrogant poopyhead meanies, but because they're in the business of publishing and they have to be efficient. If you want to be part of the business too, you might start by respecting the other people in the business.

[cwfgal]

What I have much against and resent is the condescence which they, agents, editors and publishers exercise and show w/o blinking or thinking twice.

For ex.: I dislike to the extreme the fact that when a cover or query letter opens w Dear Sir, and it's a woman who is reading it and you HAD to know it (so ridiculous), or vice versa, they say openly that they don't go on reading it. They throw it to the trash can. It was written black on paper. I read it w my own eyes in quite a few articles and interviews in which they expressed themselves in this outrageous, arrogant and haughty manner, for I do think it's outrageous, arrogant and haughty.
Dan

Outrageous, arrogant and haughty, indeed. But you're pointing your finger in the wrong direction. Turn it back toward yourself.

I've had a lot of dealings with a lot of people in the publishing industry and never have I encountered what you describe.

Finding out the name of the person you are sending a letter to -- particularly a letter meant to sell something -- is common courtesy as well as basic business sense. Why should anyone extend common courtesies to you when you can't be bothered to do the same for them? If you want to be hired for a job (and that's basically what selling your writing is), you need to show you have the skills necessary to perform that job. So if you send something to an agent or publisher that contains several typos, or demonstrate your indifference to accuracy and research by not bothering to do something as basic as getting the name of the person you're trying to convince to "hire" you, you're demonstrating a lack of the basic skills needed for the job. When you're competing against thousands of others for a few positions, presentation is crucial. A "Dear Sir" letter with errors in it won't make the cut.

Beth

[WriteRead]

I don't have anything against filtering the good writers from the bad ones, actually I think that it can only help the good ones.

I was interviewed a few times in my life, and luckily for me, not so many. I managed to keep my jobs. And I'm not a rocket scientist, either, Matt, I'm an Electronic Engineer Associate and hold a BA in Humanistic Arts. I understand perfectly the need for deep scrutiny for a job, or for that matter, for a book. It's basics, to which I have no objections. Good - in, bad -out, excellent.

I'm not against criticism, Aconyte, not at all. I don't know whom you know, but I accept gladily any crit, just go and look at my "1 Chorinthians 13" and you'll see how graciously I took it. Not that it was a harsh one, just to show you that I'm very open, take my word for it. You'll always see my "Thank you for coming in and commenting. I'll consider your remark". And why wouldn't I? I can only learn from any criticism or critique.
My very answer to you shows you how I take it. Friendly and willing to debate it constructively.

What I'm against is what I perceive as arrogance and belittling.

We don't have to go far to find such arrogance and rudeness, b/c to my mind this is sheer rudeness.

Let's begin w the derogatory word "slush" given to the pile of mss on their couches, floor, chairs and desks. Excuse me, Mr Agent/Editor, but what is this attitude? Slush? Pls, take back your derogatory word and call it by its name, "a stash of mss".

It's basic politeness that I demand from them, that my mss will not be called slush and lest some will think so, I don't think that this is political correctness. It's just basic good manners.

Or, for ex., from a post by Joe Ekaitis in Rejection and Dejection forum here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14176):

" "You're trying too hard to be the new E. B. White. . .
. . .and, frankly, if the next envelope contains the first three chapters of Stuart Little from E. B. himself, I'll send them back, too."

Simply defies comment, don't it?"

To this, in the same thread, Torgo is saying:

"Well one comment would be: this person is a mug. I'd have Stuart Little. Are they insane? For my money, not an editor, at least not a good one."

Now, this is rude and insolent to Joe and to E. B. White, too. I'm curious how White would react to this rudeness and belittling.

I didn't deal w any agent yet, James (ARitchie), I had just submitted my first submissions two mths ago, but there are enough interviews w agents and editors which I've read w nasty remarks about how they would treat a cover or query letter, which happens to be inappropriate in their eyes.

As for the Market and Marketing issue. To me this is a most serious subject. I am convinced that this is NOT a writer's business. Witness to this is all the posts of the new writers about how to approach all this proposal and pitching issues. Why do we have to bother w all this, when the agent knows better and faster what and how and when and where?This IS his field of specialization.

Market - It strikes me as odd that a writer should tell the agent or the editor what is the market for his bk, while they are in a much better position to know it. They can write a full report about whatever the market is in their field of endeavor by a flick of their fingers, far, far better, w/o any comparison to what the new writer who doesn't know yet left from right, can, and again, the countless posts here attest to my stand.

Marketing - All a writer has to do or say, is when and where would he be available for the marketing drive. Again, the editor knows far better than me what and how is to be done to market a bk successfully.

Friends, it's in our best interests to assign the diff tasks appropriately. This should be framed in our awareness forever.

I write and you, Dear Agent, pitch and represent. You, Dear Editor, edit and tell the marekting Dpt to market. I'll help in whatever I can and is needed and I'm committed to this. But don't ask me how to market the bk. It's not my specialty, period.

Those issues should be made clear to them. We write, they manage. Simple, guys, very simple.

Dan

[WriteRead]

And I still say Beth that to throw to the trash can a bad letter is outrageous arrogance. B/c what does it say? It says to any sensible person "First, boy, behave, or else!"

Not that I write bad letters. I'm willing to show you my letters - written to the T w/o exception - courtesy, format, spelling and syntax. I write them only after a very thorough research about the agent/editor to whom I write. And this is not b/c I read that it's done so, it's just the way I was brought up, and there are many others like me, for whom courtesy is second nature.

If you're willing to put up w such arrogance, then too bad, b/c you're doing a very bad service to the writers camp.

They're able to throw a writer away only b/c he asked if his mss had been recieved, a wk after he sent it. This is outrageous and snobbish to the extreme. So what if the poor guy asked if he recieved it? His Excellency The Agent King is too what? Too high put? Too high-nosed, what?

I resent it and rightly so. This behavior of theirs is not courteous, it's rudeness.

Dan

[James D. Macdonald]

Last I looked there wasn't much market and marketing information in cover letters for novels. That's more a non-fiction sort of place, where you're trying to sell books that haven't been written yet.

Beyond "this is a 110,000 word historical fantasy" or "this is an 80,000 word romance," I can't think of much more that needs to be said.

I recommend that y'all go read Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html). Please note the large number of editors and published authors who appear in the comment thread. (For example, the person who signs herself as "Jane" is Jane Yolen.)

[Cathy C]

You ARE expected to behave -- just as an attorney is expected to dress properly when appearing in front of the bar, and just as a teacher is required to prepare lessons out of whatever book is PROVIDED. A writer is expected to know the rules of their craft.

Those rules include preparation of a manuscript in FINAL form suitable for publication. Every contract you will find in the book industry contains words similar to, "The manuscript shall be a complete and legible copy of a Book in form and content acceptable to the Publisher."

In a perfect world, that complete and perfect book would be sent by the author Day 1. But reality sucks. We often can't see our failings -- from gaping plot holes to unrealistic characters. But we CAN and MUST send a book free of typos and spelling/grammar/composition errors.

We CAN and MUST know our competition well enough to know if what we've written is unique. Why or how should an editor with Pocket Books know every single title that McGraw-Hill, or Simon & Schuster, or West Publishing, puts out that is similar to the book you're sending? That's YOUR job. It's not reasonable to ask an editor to know every book on every shelf in every bookstore in the world. But YOU can know every book that is similar to YOUR book. And you should. It's part of the job.

And I've never heard of an editor or agent who would discard a query because you contacted them a week later. I've done that on many occasions. If it actually happened, it was the exception, not the rule.

Every editor I've had, my agent, and every agent I've queried, has been the model of professionalism. They've bent over backwards to help me succeed, but only because I offered to help THEM succeed. My work is my work, and theirs is theirs. We're equals in different fields.

[Sassenach]

Let's begin w the derogatory word "slush" given to the pile of mss on their couches, floor, chairs and desks. Excuse me, Mr Agent/Editor, but what is this attitude? Slush? Pls, take back your derogatory word and call it by its name, "a stash of mss".

It's basic politeness that I demand from them, that my mss will not be called slush and lest some will think so, I don't think that this is political correctness. It's just basic good manners.



What do you do, place a demand in your cover letter that your mss shall be called only by a 'respectful' term??

Sheesh.

[scribbler1382]

Respect is not owed to anyone. Respect is earned. Being arrogant won't earn you much more than the right to pay for your postage, the same as anyone else.

[pixiejuice]

The way I see it, doing research is not only a respect thing for the person you're sending to, but a selfish thing for yourself. Not only should you find out the gender of the agent/publisher you're pitching to, but what kind of books they publish, what books they read in their spare time, where they went to school, what if anything they have written or published themselves...

Whatever information you find will save you wasted time in the end. The more you know about where you're submitting to, the better your chances of being accepted, right?

Don't waste their time, and don't waste yours. Everybody's happy.

[cwfgal]

Respect is not owed to anyone. Respect is earned. Being arrogant won't earn you much more than the right to pay for your postage, the same as anyone else.

I've heard this said by a number of people but it's a belief I don't ascribe to. I assume everyone deserves basic respect and give it to them until they show themselves to be undeserving. Demanding my respect is a sure way to lose it.

Beth

[WriteRead]

Sassenach said:

What do you do, place a demand in your cover letter that your mss shall be called only by a 'respectful' term??


Of course not in the letter, now let's not get silly. But if we all demand it, as a collective voice, they will conform.

No to "slush", yes to "manuscript", I don't see anything difficult here.

The respect I talk about is not the kind of respect which has to be earned, Marty, it's the basic respect everyone is entitled to until they lose it by their impolite or reckless behavior.

Dan

[James D. Macdonald]

No to "slush", yes to "manuscript", I don't see anything difficult here.

Slush has one syllable. Unsolicited manuscript has eight.

This isn't really anything that writers should worry about. Until they're accepted my manuscripts are slush too. Life's too short to worry about slang and jargon.

[WriteRead]

There's no self-respecting writer who will send an unsolicited mss, James, at least not me, unless I consider very carefully the circumstances and decide that somehow it's warranted.

Dan

[aruna]

Sassenach said:




No to "slush", yes to "manuscript", I don't see anything difficult here.


Dan

Why not see the humour in the expression, Dan. And think of the great moment when you are finally able to say: I arose out of the slush pile!

[jackie106]

Hi Dan,

As far as I know, only non-fiction writers have to give any information about book marketing. Based on conversations with published non-fiction writers, this is not as painful as it sounds. (If someone else has more detailed information, please feel free to chime in.)

Here is the marketing info you need to give in a non-fiction proposal:
1) What your books is about.
2) If there are similar books out there on the same topic. (You used to have to go to the Library of Congress to find this out. Now you can just do a search on Amazon.)
3) How your book is different from the other books on the same topic. (Usually this involves a new twist, better research, different perspective, etc.)
4) Who would buy your book. (Who are you writing for? Why would it appeal to them?)

A book query is essentially a sales letter. They don't know that they want to buy your book. You need to convince them. Anything you can do to make your book more appealing will help you get published.

Fiction and non-fiction are two different ballgames. Non-fic writers usually haven't completed the book when the send them out. Their book proposals can run up to 80 or 90 pages, including sample chapters. (For most books, 30 or 40 pages is average.) Fiction writers usually don't need more than a one-page cover letter and a short synopsis or outline, but they are expected finish their novel first.

Hope this helps to ease your concerns!

Jackie

[WriteRead]

Aw, aruna, slush is only one of the pts I bring to make my pt. It's not the most imp one, of course, but when you take it all in one lump, then I see a patern w which I'm not so happy. Of course I'd be happy to be told I'm out of it and on the table for being considered to be published.

Yes, Jackie, admittedly Market and Marketing are pts of NF mss forwarding. I made them here, in F while it should have been done, mainly in NF, true.

Also, I wrote a proposal for an NF bk, already (I used Elizabeth Lion's bk, a wonderful detailed bk for how-to write a proposal), quite a detailed one w detailed Market and Marketing ch's and a bunch of letters for some subs. I know what they want and I'm sure I deliver to the letter. It's from this direct exp, from interviews I read and from posts here, as you could read, that I say what I say. I also truly believe that those two Market and Marketing issues are not of a writer's concern. The agent is much more competent than me to have an opinion on it.

Dan

[Tish Davidson]

Dan, you admit that you have never had any actual dealings with agents or editors. Why don't you hold your complaints until you have some first hand experience. Some of the things you mention sound a lot like urban writing legends that make the rounds of the boards every now and then. I have had a bunch of books published, worked with several agents and a coupled dozen, at least, editors and have never found them particularly rude - busy, yes, abrupt, occasionally, judgmental of my writing and telling me things I did not always want to hear, of course. That's part of their job, but not rude or disrespectful (unless you consider it disrespectful to be told you have written something that will not sell). If you go looking for put-downs, you will find them. Maybe all this perceived lack of respect is your insecurity speaking. You're going into trying to get published with a huge chip on your shoulder and a bucketful of preconceived ideas. This is only going to hold you back and make you miserable. Perhaps you are an ideal candidate for self-publishing. Then you won't have to deal with with the slush pile.

[Jamesaritchie]

There's no self-respecting writer who will send an unsolicited mss, James, at least not me, unless I consider very carefully the circumstances and decide that somehow it's warranted.

Dan

That depends on whether or not the pubisher accepts unsolicited manuscripts. Many do, and I've sold a few things this way. And honestly, "No unsolicited manuscripts" often means "Don't send me anything unless you know what you're doing. Know who to contact, how to contact them, and send them what they need in the way they need it. Agents know all this, and so should you."

As for the term "slush pile," it fits. Writers deserve respect, as long as they don't act like jerkwads. And when sitting on the editor side of the desk, I've had far more problems with jerkwad writers than I've ever had with jerkwad agent and editors when sitting on the writer's side of the desk.

As far as I'm concerned I only give respect when that respect is warranted. If I'm approached with respect, I give respect. If I'm approached with disdain, well, life is too short to sepend a second on such people. It is unrealistic to think you will get respect when you don't show respect. As a writer, you make first contact with an agent or editor, and how you make that contact often sets the tone for everything that follows.

Manuscripts, on the other hand, often do not deserve respect. You can call it a slush pile, a stash of manuscripts, or a room full of potential masterpieces, but wading through it is still one of the most unsavory jobs in publishing. And to be perfectly honest, I've heard the slush pile called by names far more distasteful than slush, and if you had to wade through enough of them, I have no doubt you would invent your own colorful euphemisms. One I've heard several times is "S**t pit."

No disrespect is intended toward writers when the phrase "slush pile" is used, and I believe you're the first I've ever encountered who has a problem with the phrase. No disrespect toward the writer is intended when the more vulgar phrase is used, either. It's simply descriptive of the job itself, and, yes, many consider most of the slush to be of the same quality.

But it's not the writer being disparaged, but simply much of the writing. When you pour your heart and soul into the writing, the distinction may not seem like much, but when you have to spend too much time reading it, you don't see the writer, only the writing.

I guess the thing is this. You're bucking human nature, and it's a pointless, impossible quest. I don't care what you call the slush pile, wading through it is absolutely no fun; there's an awful lot of work for very little return, and you only do it because you have to do it, not because you want to.

The slush pile is usually relegated to the new guy, the lowest assistant editor or assistant agent, etc. When senior editors must get involved, a "slush party" is often held, which means you drag every warm body you can find into the slush room, maybe order some pizza, etc., and you see how many manuscripts you can go through in whatever time you have available.

You do it because every now and then you find a gold nugget in the slush pile, and a few that, if not gold, at least look like silver. This makes the search worthwhile, if not fun. But let's face it, the quality of slush piles on average is pretty bad, and a sizable percentage of what's in a slush pile is God Awful. It isn;t gold or silver or even bronze, it is, at best, rusty iron. Reading it is about as far from fun as you can get, and that's just how it is.

The truth is, every last one of us could demand that the term "slush pile" be eliminated from the English language, and it wouldn't change a thing. This term, or some other much worse term, would still be used. Nor would the quality of manuscripts in the slush pile improve, and the sad job of reading through it would get no better, no more fun. It would still rank just behind a trip to the dentist.

Writers should do what they do best, which is write. Write good short stories, good novels, good query letters, etc. Writers should behave in a professional manner, which means spelling the words correctly, using good grammar, and putting the commas where they go. Writers should clean up typos, and when the writer mails something, he should make sure he knows who he's mailing it to. Every bit of this is a writer's job. It isn't begging, pleading, or whimpering. It's simply the professional approach.

What the editor or agent calls the slush pile, in all honesty, isn't and of the writer's business. If you don't like what it's called, don't let one of your manuscripts land there.

The writer is trying to sell a book. Selling a book is a business. Novelists don't have to worry too much about marketing ina proposal, but if asked, the writer should have a clue what novels have been published that might be close to his, and should know how they did.

Writers, in all truth, should not give a rat's rump what the slush pile is called. It really doesn't matter in the least whether it's called a slush pile, a s**t pit, or the room of potential masterpieces. Nothing changes. Either what you write is good enough to be pulled from the slush pile, or it isn't. Either you get a rejection or an acceptance.

There are those very few who will toss away a query for no good reason. But even more often there is good reason. Send anything without SASE, and it should get tossed. Address it to a him when a couple minutes research would have told you it was a her, and it should get tossed.

But most things get tossed because it's policy to toss anything you aren't saying yes to. This holds with many magazines, some agents, and some editors. When the writer doesn't hear back in a couple of months, he takes it as a no and moves on. And some things do get tossed because the agent or editor simply runs out of time. This doesn't happen often, but things do happen to make people lose a week or two. Rare, but you can't discount it.

And, yes, some few things get tossed because it's either throw them away or chew the writer up one side and down the other.

Either way, who cares. Whether a query is return with a no, or simply not returned at all, it's still just means no, the agent or editor din't like what you sent. So move on.

But on the whole, I think you're so far off base you've left the ballpark. You're worried about all sorts of things that matter not a bit, and ascribing motives from heresay and rumor. You demand respect, but you offer not a bit. Nothing you've said about agents or editors is respectful at all, and you don't even know these people.

This really is a pretty simple business. If you can write, tell a good story, fill it with good characters, you're in. If you can't, you're out. You give them what they want, and they'll give you what you want.

Worrying about what the slush pile is called just doesn't make sense. That's the editor's business, not the writer's. And it's more futile than tilting at windmills. So is worrying about whether or not agents and editors respect you, or are rude. And thinking writers cower, whimper, beg, or plead is just odd. All writers have to do is be professional. Professional attitude, professional approach, and professional quality writing.

[Mistook]

So in reality, they call it the sh|t pile?

[aruna]

While we're on the subject....

http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14398

[WriteRead]

Ask yourself, James, why did I get this impression which made me say what I said. And you don't have to go far to find the answer. It's right here, as you posted it:

Writers, in all truth, should not give a rat's rump what the slush pile is called. It really doesn't matter in the least whether it's called a slush pile, a s**t pit, or the room of potential masterpieces. Nothing changes. Either what you write is good enough to be pulled from the slush pile, or it isn't. Either you get a rejection or an acceptance.

There are those very few who will toss away a query for no good reason. But even more often there is good reason. Send anything without SASE, and it should get tossed. Address it to a him when a couple minutes research would have told you it was a her, and it should get tossed

But most things get tossed because it's policy to toss anything you aren't saying yes to. This holds with many magazines, some agents, and some editors. When the writer doesn't hear back in a couple of months, he takes it as a no and moves on. And some things do get tossed because the agent or editor simply runs out of time. This doesn't happen often, but things do happen to make people lose a week or two. Rare, but you can't discount it.
And, yes, some few things get tossed because it's either throw them away or chew the writer up one side and down the other.

Either way, who cares. Whether a query is return with a no, or simply not returned at all, it's still just means no, the agent or editor din't like what you sent. So move on.
Every word here smacks of arrogance, in my eyes. You may say that I'm too sensitive, too scrutinizing, too whatever, but ask yourself honestly what made me feel and think so. Maybe I do have a pt.

For ex.: "Address it to a him when a couple minutes research would have told you it was a her, and it should get tossed"

Now this is outrageous to me, and believe me I'm a pedant, very, very pedant, my letters will atest to it, I won't make such mistakes, but what? Are you saying that the sender of this letter is disrespectful b/c of this mistake? He was unattentive at the most, but not disrespectful. You ask me to develop a thick skin, while you show a hiper-sensitivity like this reaction which is ridiculous to the extreme? And b/c of it you throw to trash my/our mss? What you call this? Reasonable and acceptable behavior? I call it a hyper-sensitive and outrageous, ugly, very, very ugly and patronizing behavior.

In light of this to say that:

But on the whole, I think you're so far off base you've left the ballpark. You're worried about all sorts of things that matter not a bit, and ascribing motives from heresay and rumor. You demand respect, but you offer not a bit. Nothing you've said about agents or editors is respectful at all, and you don't even know these people.
is simply ridiculous and off the mark by a mile.

You said also:

heresay and rumor
The following is "heresay and rumor", too? You didn't read it, apparently, when I posted it in a former post here.

Or, for ex., from a post by Joe Ekaitis in Rejection and Dejection forum here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14176):
" "You're trying too hard to be the new E. B. White. . .
. . .and, frankly, if the next envelope contains the first three chapters of Stuart Little from E. B. himself, I'll send them back, too."
Shall we go to this forum and start picking jewels from the editor's/agent's mouth? You're game?

You also said:

As far as I'm concerned I only give respect when that respect is warranted
Well, here we differ. I give respect every time, even to the unrespectful, pls take my word for it. What you perceive as disrespectful on my part toward the other side of the desk from where the writer sits, is only the description which any sensible and reasonable person would give to your words and attitude.

In essence, what you say is "Like It, Take It; Don't Like It, Don't Take It". Well, I don't like it one bit and I make my voice heard. There's no smoke w/o fire, so they say, so maybe you start looking into your own frontyard, the image which the world is seeing, and see it for what it is. This is called "Taking responsibility for our deeds and words".

Enough said.

Respectfully,

Dan

[Cathy C]

Nope, not enough said.


I think it's necessary to clarify a few misconceptions that you continue to espouse.

Are you saying that the sender of this letter is disrespectful b/c of this mistake? He was unattentive at the most, but not disrespectful.

What you're failing to see here is that inattention IS disrespect -- by definition! According to Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 9th Ed., respect: re-spect/ri-spekt/ n - 1: to consider worthy of regard; 2: an act of giving particular attention: CONSIDERATION; 3: paying particular attention: DETAIL.

No, I'm not being nit-picky here. But respect makes DEMANDS of the giver. It DEMANDS attention to detail, it DEMANDS effort, as a condition. It's not just an arbitrary concept that costs the giver nothing. It is incredibly disrespectful to a person to ignore rules which they often didn't make, but must abide by.

Yes, there are jaded editors who have seen too many manuscripts which are unpublishable by the company they work for. They can often get tired and annoyed enough to say things that might be misconstrued by one with a sensitive nature. Sometimes, they're just plain snarky. Unfortunately, what most writers don't get is that it's not personal. It's not personal to the point that you're not a human. You're a name on a piece of paper and ALL they have to judge is what else is written on the paper. They're not saying, "Gee, I'll bet Dan was having a rough day. I'll ignore the typos and improper format." To them, it's more discarding a squished, ripped box of pasta from the grocer's shelf. Yes, it could be straightened and taped, but would the customer still buy it? No, probably not. Return to sender.

And b/c of it you throw to trash my/our mss? What you call this?

I call it unlikely. Except for the rare occasion that a writer has not supplied an SASE, I've never heard of a publisher actually discarding a submission --- for ANY reason, and how would you know if someone had? By the mere fact it wasn't returned? Isn't it just as likely it was never RECEIVED by them? The concept implies a great deal more faith in the postal system than I've experienced. Sorry, but you're pressing this point again and again, and I don't think it's valid.

I'm a pedant, very, very pedant, my letters will atest to it, I won't make such mistakes, but what?

Are you really certain you wanted to use this phrasing to convey what I think you were trying to? Again, back to definition: "ped-ant /ped-nt/ n 1. One a) who parades his learning without cause, b) who is unimaginative or who unduly emphasizes minutae in the presentation or use of knowledge."

Why should I believe that you take more care in the presentation of your queries than in your posts? Is this the same level of respect that you give editors?

[aadams73]

Are you saying that the sender of this letter is disrespectful b/c of this mistake? He was unattentive at the most, but not disrespectful.


It's not just disrespectful, it's unprofessional. And I think in the publishing business--as any--you must endeavor to be as professional as absolutely possible.

[scribbler1382]

Oy. :horse:

[Saanen]

[QUOTE=James D. Macdonald]
I recommend that y'all go read Slushkiller (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004641.html).[QUOTE]

Oh, darn you to heck for giving me that link! I've just spent a solid five hours reading the entire thread instead of doing my own writing or finishing the piles of homework I have for class Tuesday. On the other hand, I thoroughly enjoyed the past five hours, so I guess it's all good. :)

[Aconite]

There's no self-respecting writer who will send an unsolicited mss, James, at least not me, unless I consider very carefully the circumstances and decide that somehow it's warranted.

Dan, what you do not seem to get is that you are having a conversation with several self-respecting authors--ones who have far more experience and success than you do--and they're telling you, "That's not how it goes." And you're choosing not to listen.

Instead, you're informing us of all the ways in which we're wrong about the publishing industry and we don't respect ourselves. And you would know any of this...how, exactly, given that you have no publishing experience whatsoever? If you're going to try to argue from authority, you have to have some credentials, and you don't. People who do are explaining to you how you're in error. You could learn something by listening to them.

[WriteRead]

How in the world could you understand what you understood, I fail to see, Aconite. Maybe you read again my post w the quote. All I said was a re to James saying that no... etc., etc. How is this addressed to you in particualr or any other? Beyond me.

[Aconite]

I was using that quote as one example of something you've done all through this conversation, which is to make grand statements about publishing that run contrary to fact. "There's no self-respecting writer who will send an unsolicited mss*," you say, when several self-respecting authors right here have told you they do send out unsolicited manuscripts, and that's just how publishing is. But not for you -- no, you respect yourself too much to send out an unsolicited manuscript. Sending out unsolicited manuscripts has nothing to do with respect; it's simply what is done.

Likewise, many of the things you point to as examples of respect, or disrespect, are no such thing, except in your own mind. Bluntness from an editor is not arrogance. Declaring that your manuscript will not be called "slush" is not self-respect. James, who has -- what, 80 or so? -- 80 books out has no problem with his manuscript being called "slush," and neither do the rest of the people in the pile. Our not getting hung up on things like that is not doing a disservice to writers, nor is it a sign that we don't respect ourselves. Those things, and the others we've discussed and tried to explain to you, are simply not important, despite what you think.

*FYI: "mss" means "manuscripts," plural. You want the singular, since you used the singular article.

[WriteRead]

Aconite, I was willing to let it go, but you keep pressing, okay, then, let's press. Your choice.

James may have written 100 bks and his preferences are only his. I don't subscribe to them nor to what is the popular conception of this matter, on the contrary, I resent it. His post only validated what I said, it was a billboard for my statements.

I have my own preferences and code of behavior, which tells me that what I perceived is ugly, very ugly, period.

Let me press it further, and I do it very gently:

- fact 1 - the writer is the one who provides;
- fact 2 - most writers are not dependent on writing;
- fact 3 - editors and agents are only facilitators;
- fact 4 - do the math.

That's not to say that it's the writer's turn now to be ugly, not at all, repeat, NOT. But it puts it all in the right perspective.

If you prefer to close your eyes to what is obvious, too bad. What you call bluntness, I call arrogance, b/c this is what it is by any norm.

All I ask is respect, and of a kind which you apparently don't understand, more over, you refuse to acknowledge.

About unsolicited mss - if you had only read my post more carefully, you wouild see that I said something about circumstances under which, when carefully considered, I'd decide to send such, so there. We say the same, re this.

And don't patronize me w the mss, which I meant in plural, in general - your remark is correct in itself, but in the context is a childish reaction, and you know it, b/c you know why you did it. You wouldn't do it in a non-controversial thread.

Dan

[Aconite]

And don't patronize me w the mss, which I meant in plural, in general - your remark is correct in itself, but in the context is a childish reaction, and you know it, b/c you know why you did it. You wouldn't do it in a non-controversial thread.

On the contrary, I have made corrections and clarifications in "non-controversial" threads. I assume we're all here to learn, and assume --and hope -- others will correct me if I've gotten something wrong, because I want to get it right. Remember when I mentioned your assuming ill intent when there is none, and you assured me you didn't do that? Yet you've decided you know my motivations, and that they are nasty.

Good luck in the publishing business. Let us know how that turns out.

[MacAllister]

....wow...

I'd never even considered finding the term "slush" offensive. I've been known to refer to my own manuscript as a pile of s**t.

[Aconite]

.I've been known to refer to my own manuscript as a pile of s**t.

I thought we all did that. It's how we know we're writers and not, say, wedding planners.

Now I must go read TNH's "Varieties of Insanity Known to Affect Authors" again, and put everything back in perspective.

[MacAllister]

Heh--and for anyone who missed what Aconite is talking about, here's the link (http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004307.html).

I have a print-out of the list tacked to the wall over my desk, with several addendas from the comments scribbled beneath.

Just don't take it too personally.

[Birol]

Disrespectful terms I've used to describe my own writing:


Slush
Garbage
Trite
Sucks/Sucky
Awful
Horrible
Embarrassing
Screwed
Pukey/Puke-Inspiring

[aadams73]

I'm fond of calling my WIP "crap". I can only hope agents and editors won't agree.

[Tish Davidson]

For those who believe every word they writer is golden, I suggest self-publishing. me, I prefer to take my load of crap to a traditional publisher and take my chances that they will be rude and arrogant.

[Mistook]

....wow...

I'd never even considered finding the term "slush" offensive. I've been known to refer to my own manuscript as a pile of s**t.


Not to be all touchy-feely... and neither to be all high-and-mighty, but I am disturbed by the level of self-deprecation I see expressed around here by most of the writers, and especially the non-published. It's almost as if some panel somewhere it handing out awards (or at least brownie points) for humility.

We all know it's idiotic to brag about one's unequalled genius, but what good does it do to oversteer in the opposide direction? Nobody would brag in a cover letter to a publisher, but it would be equally stupid to think that an apology for the crap their about to suffer through, would be any better.

[MacAllister]

I don't think any of us are being entirely literal, Mistook. :)

[Aconite]

We all know it's idiotic to brag about one's unequalled genius, but what good does it do to oversteer in the opposide direction?
I think for most writers, it's not one or the other, but both at different times. If we're honest, we admit that there are times we think our writing is farking brilliant. Then we re-read it in two weeks and want to crawl under a rock. Ten days after that, we fix the dialogue, and come to the conclusion it's pretty good, and it won't win the Booker but has a shot at publication. Repeat ad infinitum.

Nobody would brag in a cover letter to a publisher,
Oh, yes, they would. It's not a rare phemomenon, either.

but it would be equally stupid to think that an apology for the crap their about to suffer through, would be any better.
True, but it would have the value of being slightly less cliched. *g*