First time amateur looking for some advice

that_guy_ · May 19, 2009

Hi everyone, I've only just found this forum, which has been great in providing ideas, tips and advice. I'm a first time writer. In fact, i've never really written anything before. However, i've had an idea for a story for a year or two now and i've just started writing it down. I'm hoping, probably rather niavely, that i might be able to one day put together a novel with it. I've made a very rough draft of what i think might be my first chapter and i'm looking for some advice.

I've come up against a few problems so far. Currently, my first chapter stands at about 4,000 words. My impression from reading other posts is that this is rather excessive. Would you agree? I think that i might be going in to unnecessary detail, or going off in tangents that aren't really all that interesting to the reader. Also, i have quite a clear idea of the underlying theme of the book (which might be a little heavy for a first time author to approach), which i'm trying to maintain through symbolism. However, i'm unsure if my efforts to include this symbolism are rather excessive and might detract from the story. I also find myself worrying about how exciting the first chapter is, whether it's enough to grab the readers attention, do i need the first chapter to really grab their attention (4,000 words), or can the main hooks of the book arrive in chapters two and three.

Anyway, i hope you'll appreciate that i'm not a writer, and i've never studied writing or art in any meaningful way. Unfortunately, i don't consider myself very well read either. However, i'm viewing this as a learning experience and i would really appreciate any advice anyone might offer.

I'm also more than happy to e-mail anyone who's interested a copy of my VERY PROVISIONAL first draft if anyone is willing.

Many thanks,

TG

Izz · May 19, 2009

Welcome to AW

Chapters should be as long as they need to be. If the chapter needs to be 4,000 words then that's how long it should be.

My advice would be to not worry about chapter length just at the moment. Just concentrate on writing the story down. Once it's written you can go back through it and decide how much of the first (and second through to last) chapter is necessary. Many writers find that the first one or two chapters can be completely cut from a finished work without all that much impact, but they needed to write them to give themselves a firm grasp of the characters and story.

Anyway, keep on writing

Don't worry about how compelling the first chapter is until you've finished the first draft. In all likelihood the book will need two, three or more drafts to get it to a publishable standard, and those next drafts' first chapters might be completely different to what you have now

Oh, and did i say 'Welcome!'

Bufty · May 19, 2009

You must read if you wish to write so other folk want to read what you have written.

Horseshoes · May 19, 2009

4k is not inherently excessive --although if you qualified it to types of novels that tend to have shorter chapters, sure it's long. I know that sounds pointlessly tautological but really, without knowing anything about where n a bookstore you expect your finished work would appear, then you can only get very vague answers when asking if yours is doing all right...so far.

I'd recommend you just write it. You can edit and fix anything you've written. You cannot edit a blank page. Write and write. It will gte batter. You'll get faster, more sure, more efficient, more in tune with the story.
If you write it.

scarletpeaches · May 19, 2009

Seconding Bufty's post. You can't be a writer if you're not a reader.

that_guy_ · May 19, 2009

Thankyou for the welcomes and the suggestions that have been made so far. Particularly the comments about the usefulness of first chapters in developing characters and story, it's very helpful to think about it in that way. I share some of your anxieties about the fact that i don't consider myself well read, certainly in comparison to the people on here. Is it a consensus that this will be a hinderance, i can certainly understand why it might be and i appreciate your honesty about it.

Although i can't really find the time to read a lot of novels my job means that i come into contact with a lot of academic and scientific debate about the nature of human experience (and the epistemological and philosophical concerns that accompany it) and i do publish papers in this area (though, these are scientific findings, and obviously read as such, i hoped their might be some transferable skills). Do you think it will be impossible to write a novel that anyone would want to read without the experience of being a frequent reader. I realise it's difficult to quantify these things, and i do read several noels each year, though i assume you would consider this quite a poor attempt?

If nothing else i'm quite enjoying the writing experience so far, and i guess it really is just a hobby, so i'll probably continue, perhaps trying to fit more time in for reading!

NicoleMD · May 19, 2009

Isaac Espriu said:
Welcome to AW

Chapters should be as long as they need to be. If the chapter needs to be 4,000 words then that's how long it should be.

My advice would be to not worry about chapter length just at the moment. Just concentrate on writing the story down. Once it's written you can go back through it and decide how much of the first (and second through to last) chapter is necessary. Many writers find that the first one or two chapters can be completely cut from a finished work without all that much impact, but they needed to write them to give themselves a firm grasp of the characters and story.

Anyway, keep on writing Don't worry about how compelling the first chapter is until you've finished the first draft. In all likelihood the book will need two, three or more drafts to get it to a publishable standard, and those next drafts' first chapters might be completely different to what you have now

Oh, and did i say 'Welcome!'

Ditto! Write your first draft and have fun with it. Experiment. Don't be afraid of anything. Find your voice.

Then when you're done with your draft, come back here and get all sorts of good advice.

Sometimes reading turns people into writers, and sometimes writing turns people into readers, so the good news is you don't have to be a reader in order to write a novel.

Good luck!

Nicole

dawinsor · May 19, 2009

I recommend Uncle Jim's thread here on the novel forum. You'll learn a ton.

that_guy_ · May 19, 2009

dawinsor said:
I recommend Uncle Jim's thread here on the novel forum. You'll learn a ton.

Wow, there's so much info. Thankyou!

Sophia · May 19, 2009

that_guy_ said:
Do you think it will be impossible to write a novel that anyone would want to read without the experience of being a frequent reader. I realise it's difficult to quantify these things, and i do read several noels each year, though i assume you would consider this quite a poor attempt?

I wouldn't consider it a poor attempt. It depends on how much time you have for reading, your energy levels, etc. and I wouldn't judge you on it. The suggestion to read a lot is made because there is so much you can gain from it: examples of the standard and style that publishers and readers buy, examples of how to show different viewpoints on life in fiction, examples of how language can be used. It increases your well of knowledge and combinations of things you absorb might help you in your own writing.

I do know one best-selling author, Karen Traviss, who has said that she doesn't read because there is a strong risk of her unconsciously plagiarising what she has read. However, she did read a lot in her youth and knows her genre. I think this last point is one of the most important - reading lets you understand what has been done many times before, what trends in the different aspects of writing are gaining popularity and which are no longer popular, and might spark a new way of thinking about your own story.

colealpaugh · May 19, 2009

that_guy_ said:
Wow, there's so much info. Thankyou!

Dawno's index is pretty cool:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754

I've been a journalist my entire career -- almost a quarter century -- but learn something new and incredibly useful every time I surf around Uncle Jim's monster of a thread.

that_guy_ · May 19, 2009

colealpaugh said:
Dawno's index is pretty cool:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8754

I've been a journalist my entire career -- almost a quarter century -- but learn something new and incredibly useful every time I surf around Uncle Jim's monster of a thread.

Thankyou!

jerry phoenix · May 19, 2009

that_guy_ said:
I'm also more than happy to e-mail anyone who's interested a copy of my VERY PROVISIONAL first draft if anyone is willing.

TG

try 'share your work', you will get some feedback there. however...all you will get from this site is someone else's opinion, or someone repeating someone else's opinion. learn the craft for yourself so you can tell the stories you feel you need to tell. it may take some time to get the right muscles up to match fitness but if you spend time working those muscles you will be as able as anyone to write a cracking story.

sunandshadow · May 19, 2009

I'll add my agreement to the above advice to not worry yet about whether there are tangents or excessive symbolism. Just write the first draft. If you actually get a complete rough draft of a novel, seeing it all together will give you the perspective to see how much symbolism is appropriate and whether some chapters have flab you want to trim off. It's extremely common for people who finish a first draft to suddenly have a new better idea for the first chapter and rewrite it, which negates any time spent tweaking the first version.

Rushie · May 19, 2009

that_guy_ said:
and i do publish papers in this area (though, these are scientific findings, and obviously read as such, i hoped their might be some transferable skills).

Absolutely there are transferable skills! I have spent my entire life (I'm over 50) writing everything but fiction. Now that I decided to try fiction I've found that my grasp of the English language, vocabulary, ability to organize thoughts into writing, are all extremely useful for my fiction. If you've got good general writing skills, and a lot of practice using them, that's a big area you don't need to learn. You've got half the battle already won. But you will need to learn the particulars of storytelling.

Do you think it will be impossible to write a novel that anyone would want to read without the experience of being a frequent reader. I realise it's difficult to quantify these things, and i do read several noels each year, though i assume you would consider this quite a poor attempt?

Yes it is impossible to write a good novel without reading them, in my opinion, but you said you read "several" a year? That's not too sparse. However, I recommend reading in the area in which you want to write. I echo what the others said about needing to know what has already been done.

But all your other reading and writing is not a waste. In the thread where they ask what we read just to relax, I listed a lot of non-fiction. These won't help me with novel organization, but they give me limitless material for characters, settings, and general knowledge. So don't despair about the things you do do. You will be surprised how you will draw on all of that for your stories, even the dry scientific stuff. But you will have to include reading some novels in your genre.

geardrops · May 19, 2009

that_guy_ said:
I've made a very rough draft of what i think might be my first chapter and i'm looking for some advice.

First off, congrats for finishing a draft (I'm assuming you've finished the draft). This is big and most people never get here, despite having "awesome" ideas

I've come up against a few problems so far. Currently, my first chapter stands at about 4,000 words. My impression from reading other posts is that this is rather excessive. Would you agree?

A chapter is as long as it needs to be. Don't worry about word count, but content.

I think that i might be going in to unnecessary detail, or going off in tangents that aren't really all that interesting to the reader.

You probably are. It's a pitfall of new writers. Best is to get a second pair of eyes here, not a friend or relative, but someone neutral.

Also, i have quite a clear idea of the underlying theme of the book (which might be a little heavy for a first time author to approach), which i'm trying to maintain through symbolism. However, i'm unsure if my efforts to include this symbolism are rather excessive and might detract from the story.

Don't worry about things being too "heavy" for a first-time writer. Write what you know, what you love, and what you're passionate about. Anything else won't work.

As far as the symbolism being too overt and detracting from the story? Only something that either you, while editing, will see, or someone else while reading will see. Put the story aside for a month then read it again and see how you feel.

Also, you always capitalize "I." Always. Yeah, this is a forum, and yeah communication can be causal here. But if you're in the habit of good grammar, it's one less thing to worry about in edits.

I also find myself worrying about how exciting the first chapter is, whether it's enough to grab the readers attention, do i need the first chapter to really grab their attention (4,000 words), or can the main hooks of the book arrive in chapters two and three.

Your hook cannot wait until chapter three. Hell, it can't wait until sentence three. Grab them by the throat at line one.

Unfortunately, i don't consider myself very well read either.

If you want to write successfully, fix this. If you are enjoying the process of writing for your own amusement, then I say don't worry about it. But you'll have an uphill climb if you don't read.

Welcome

that_guy_ · May 20, 2009

thanks everyone for the advice!

Willowmound · May 20, 2009

that_guy_ said:
I share some of your anxieties about the fact that i don't consider myself well read, certainly in comparison to the people on here. Is it a consensus that this will be a hinderance, i can certainly understand why it might be and i appreciate your honesty about it.

You have to read. It's that simple. Imagine a film director who never watches movies. You can't learn that way. You'll just be reinventing the wheel forever.

Cyia · May 20, 2009

.

that_guy_ said:
Hi everyone, I've only just found this forum, which has been great in providing ideas, tips and advice. I'm a first time writer.

In fact, i've never really written anything before. However, i've had an idea for a story for a year or two now and i've just started writing it down.

Yay! You've taken step one!

I'm hoping, probably rather niavely, that i might be able to one day put together a novel with it. I've made a very rough draft of what i think might be my first chapter and i'm looking for some advice.

Put it in Share Your Work for feedback.

I've come up against a few problems so far. Currently, my first chapter stands at about 4,000 words. My impression from reading other posts is that this is rather excessive. Would you agree?

It depends. There are no set limits on chapter length. If it needs 4000 words, then 4000 words is perfect.

I think that i might be going in to unnecessary detail, or going off in tangents that aren't really all that interesting to the reader. Also, i have quite a clear idea of the underlying theme of the book (which might be a little heavy for a first time author to approach),

You think it loses weight if you've written more books? I doubt it.

which i'm trying to maintain through symbolism. However, i'm unsure if my efforts to include this symbolism are rather excessive and might detract from the story. I also find myself worrying about how exciting the first chapter is, whether it's enough to grab the readers attention, do i need the first chapter to really grab their attention (4,000 words), or can the main hooks of the book arrive in chapters two and three.

Chapter 1 is what's going to be read by any agent/editor to whom you submit a query. They have no way to know that things will pick up in chapter 2 or 3, so chapter 1 needs to be as strong as possible.

Anyway, i hope you'll appreciate that i'm not a writer, and i've never studied writing or art in any meaningful way. Unfortunately, i don't consider myself very well read either. However, i'm viewing this as a learning experience and i would really appreciate any advice anyone might offer.

Reading, especially in your chosen genre, is a necessity. Otherwise you don't know what's come before. You may think you have a totally new approach to something, and that approach could be the most cliched thing out there. How would you know?

I'm also more than happy to e-mail anyone who's interested a copy of my VERY PROVISIONAL first draft if anyone is willing.

Share Your Work Forum.

Many thanks,

TG

Izz · May 20, 2009

To be honest, i wouldn't recommend posting your first chapter in the Share Your Work forum just yet, that_guy. Reason being is that you've only written chapter 1 and not the rest of the novel yet. If you begin getting detailed crits on chapter 1 now the likelihood is that you'll start obsessing over trying to get that chapter perfect, which will halt your overall progress.

However, once you've got your first draft of the whole work written, then yes, i would recommend posting that first chapter in Share Your Work under the appropriate genre. Then you can implement the advice you receive to the manuscript as a whole.

As far as reading goes, you say you read several novels a year in the limited time you have available. That's good. Keep it up

Bufty · May 20, 2009

Agreed. Now is not the time to look for critiques on an open board.

Isaac Espriu said:
To be honest, i wouldn't recommend posting your first chapter in the Share Your Work forum just yet, that_guy. Reason being is that you've only written chapter 1 and not the rest of the novel yet. If you begin getting detailed crits on chapter 1 now the likelihood is that you'll start obsessing over trying to get that chapter perfect, which will halt your overall progress.

However, once you've got your first draft of the whole work written, then yes, i would recommend posting that first chapter in Share Your Work under the appropriate genre. Then you can implement the advice you receive to the manuscript as a whole.

As far as reading goes, you say you read several novels a year in the limited time you have available. That's good. Keep it up

Phaeal · May 20, 2009

Start out right: Dash through an entire draft before you let your Inner Editor fret over things like symbolism and theme. The first draft is the time to go crazy, follow tangents, loop back, jump forward, explore. Have fun with your story; don't poison it and your own enthusiasm with doubt and worry.

In addition to reading more fiction, I'd recommend reading some writing books so you get a feel for the craft and lingo of the art. Self-Editing for Fiction Writers is one of my favorites, since it introduces most of the big concepts in easily digested form. It also has cartoons by George Booth. What more could you want?

For inspiration, Lamott's Bird by Bird is yet to be beat. For more in-depth craft discussions, Writer's Digest Books has an excellent series called The Elements of Fiction Writing. Card's contribution on character and viewpoint and Kress's on plot structure (Beginnings, Middles & Ends) are good places to start in the series.

that_guy_ · May 20, 2009

Thanks again everyone. I think what i will do is just focus on getting the novel finished then worry about these kinds of issues later. I think i had an idea in my head that i needed to be editing as i go, but that's not really practical or useful i guess. I'll get a draft finished and try reading more around my genre.

Cheers.

skywriter16 · May 20, 2009

I'm fairly new at writing as well but I have written complete novels before. I would suggest reading a lot in the genre that you are writing in and not worrying what others think right now. Find yourself as a writer, who you are and what makes your story unique, then later you can worry about who everyone else is and what they think...

LuckyH · May 20, 2009

I can't resist adding something about reading extensively, which I totally agree with, but it would maybe help too if you read with an analytical eye.

It can be boring at first, especially when long away from early educational reading and all those essays, but then it comes naturally and doesn't distract from a good read. I'm going to stick my neck out and say 'quality' read; really low-level writing will not help anyone who wants to improve their output.

First time amateur looking for some advice

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