The U.S. is a one-party fascist dictatorship

[MordechaiGoodbuds]

Big corporations completely control the important decisions made in this country, and they own both political parties.

Our elections are a farce because there isn't much of a difference between democrats and republicans. The only difference is this:

Republicans say when corporations defecate, you're going to eat their feces and like it.

Democrats say you still have to eat big corporate feces, but we're going to mix sugar with it.

At least the republicans are honest. Democrats claim to be the party of the middle class, but when push comes to shove almost always side with big corporations.

[Don]

I agree, except the part about the republicans being honest. :D So is this just a whine in want of some cheese, or do you have some concrete ideas of how to change it?

[Zoombie]

You have no idea what living in a fascist dictatorship is like.

[Plot Device]

I embrace the shadow government theory myself.

[MacAllister]

I think we ceased being an informed populace in favor of spending our energy and money on Nintendo, Girls Gone Wild, and breast implants; and now we're reaping the fruits of those decisions.

[Gregg]

You have tunnel vision.
You don't think that our Representatives in Congress should be blamed for selling out not only to some big corporations, but to other special interest groups like the teacher's union, etc.
If our members of Congress had more integrity, the special interests wouldn't be so powerful.
But placing all the blame on big corporations is silly.

[James81]

I blame feminism myself.

[Zoombie]

I think we ceased being an informed populace in favor of spending our energy and money on Nintendo, Girls Gone Wild, and breast implants; and now we're reaping the fruits of those decisions.


How dare we not spend every waking hour focused entirely on Real Issues. How dare we relax and blow off some steam.

[Don]

I have to agree with everybody.

Except Zoombie. The only difference between us and a fascist dictatorship is that DC still can't get the trains to run on time... or make a profit. :ROFL:

(That was a joke, Zoombie. :))

[Zoombie]

Also there is a suspicious lack of death camps, but I might just be Blinded By the Liberal Media.

[MacAllister]

How dare we not spend every waking hour focused entirely on Real Issues. How dare we relax and blow off some steam.
Heh. Everyone needs to blow off steam, Zoombie, and god knows I love me some Civilization IV.

When more college juniors know who Lindsay Lohan is sleeping with than who the Vice President is, though, I'm thinkin' things are tipped out of balance a goodly ways. You'll note I said absolutely nothing about fascism or dictatorships, though.

James, you apparently blame feminism for everything bad that's ever happened to you. If only those uppity bitches would get back in the kitchen and stop demanding to be treated like autonomous human beings, everything would be just fine. But then, I've seen you compare a woman to a car that needs a tune-up, apparently un-ironically, as well. You'll pardon me for simply rolling my eyes at whatever ignorant bullshit you might happen to say about women this week.

[Don]

Also there is a suspicious lack of death camps, but I might just be Blinded By the Liberal Media.
Results 1 - 10 of about 397,000 for FEMA CAMPS (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=FEMA+camps&aq=f&oq=FEMA+camp) :D

[Zoombie]

I thought that James was just joking, but whatever.

Really, though, I have not seen the same kind of ignorance that others have seen. No, I mostly complain about people who disagree with me by calling them idiots (Cause, well, duh, I'm perfect and always 100% right, didn't you get the memo).

We're mostly smarter than we give ourselves credit for. Its just, and this is a theory I keep on bringing up, we remember shit.

I mean, what makes a better story to talk about: That time where you met an average, intelligent person, shared a good conversation with, and then went home?

Or that time you met that blinding idiot who knew who Lindsay Lohan is sleeping with, but not who the Vice President was. Or that moron who was worried that her brain was doing all the thinking for her. Or that dumbshit who cut infront of you while yakking on a cellphone.

We remember all the bad stuff, we talk about all the bad stuff...its easy to become pessimistic and "those darn kid"tastic.

And that bugs me, cause I'm an optimist and its in my contract that we at least TRY and hope for a better future...

[Don]

And weren't all the death camps in the National Socialist country, not the fascist one?

[MordechaiGoodbuds]

Zoombie,

Death camps are not an inclusive part of the definition of fascism.

We have civil rights in American fascism--just no real political choice.


***

I want a political party that's in favor of the government (for example) seizing health insurance companies and using their ill-gotten profits to fund a universal health care system which would later be funded by higher taxes on corporations and the richest 1%.

[Shadow_Ferret]

I think we ceased being an informed populace in favor of spending our energy and money on Nintendo, Girls Gone Wild, and breast implants; and now we're reaping the fruits of those decisions.

Yes! Whoohoo! Girls gone wild! Yeah, baby!

Um... what were we talking about?

[Zoombie]

Well, it depends on how you define fascism, which is getting more and more hair splitty and confusing every day.

But, as the Nazis called themselves fascist, were called fascists by others, and are considered to be the general idea of fascists (and they did a hell of a lot more than the Italians ever did) so I'm just gonna stick with the whole "Nazis were Fascists" thing.

That's my story and I am sticking too it till someone gives me better evidence

[Zoombie]

Well, if we have no political power, don't tell me...I'm still gonna try and people telling me I can't do things just gets me grumpy, and then I start bringing out the Satan metaphors...

[James81]

I thought that James was just joking, but whatever.

..

lol I was.

[Zoombie]

Well, it wasn't very funny.

Go sit in the corner and think up better jokes.

[mscelina]

Ah...another inflammatory thread in which people get to make asses of themselves.

Time for me to volunteer to follow the trend, I guess. unfortunately, I'm too busy actually doing something about the issues that matter to me to jump on the train of the ill-informed and compare the evil United States of America to a political form that I obviously know nothing about. I submit that the OP not only has no clue what fascism is, but apparently is just as clueless about a dictatorship--since fascism doesn't support the corporate structure and a dictatorship doesn't bother with things like elections.

Yes, I know--all unimportant points when the purpose is merely to spew.

But you know what? Mac--I'd be willing to bet that all of James' problems are caused by feminism. After all, all of those women in the world able to speak and think for themselves must cause him a hell of a lot of trouble.

*rolls eyes*

And no, zoombie--James never jokes about women being the root of all evil.

[Zoombie]

Well, then, he should sit in the corner for all sorts of reasons then!

[dclary]

I think we ceased being an informed populace in favor of spending our energy and money on Nintendo, Girls Gone Wild, and breast implants; and now we're reaping the fruits of those decisions.

And what glorious fruits they are, too.

^_^

[donroc]

Powerhouse law firm partners William French Smith became the 74th U.S. Attorney General under Reagan, and Charles Manatt became Chairman of the Democratic Party. One law firm fits all.

[AMCrenshaw]

I think we're a bi-partisan republic, which has with it all the necessary trappings of an evil empire. The republic does a whole hell of a lot for us, including unconditional protection from invasion. We have many good laws. Many unnecessary, harmful, or repressive laws. However, we have the ability to talk against the government. We have the ability to produce press which is critical of the government. We are still allowed to own guns, to form a militia against the government (for those who like that sort of thing) in case we ever feel it's necessary. Woman and blacks have equal rights to the pursuit of happiness and in the pursuit of influence, but we haven't yet seen the whole of the fruits of civil rights labor. Yes, our government is made up largely of Christians, as is our entire country, and there are certain aspects of religious life people cannot separate from political life. But even if 10% of people can remain educated and critical of the government, or are less concerned about Lindsay Lohan's partners and more concerned about the activities of the government, we should be OK. As much as I dislike military republics, I like this country, and feel that the freedoms it offers (speech, press, etc.) are perhaps the only things really keeping the government from being more repressive, more violent, invulnerable, or like a tyranny.


AMC

[Romantic Heretic]

Going to disagree with you on this one, Celina. Corporatism and Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism) are intricately linked.

And Capitalism prefers the non-democratic state. In advanced authoritarian societies special interests cooperate to maintain the status quo. The same laws remain in force for many years. Dissent is suppressed and the same people remain in positions of power. People can make money, for the most part, and pass it on to their children. Which is what most people prefer from their lives. They aren't concerned with what systems they live under.

As my favorite author puts it, "Capitalism was content under Hitler, happy under Mussolini, very happy under Franco and delirious under General Pinochet."

It's why businesses like China so much these days. There won't be any unions or wage demands there. Or at least not for long.

[James81]

And no, zoombie--James never jokes about women being the root of all evil.

There's only one thing I don't joke about.

and that is sandwiches.

[blacbird]

You have no idea what living in a fascist dictatorship is like.

Echo this, exactly, word-for-word, with maximum emphasis. But if you really want to experience such, you can move to Myanmar.

caw

[Zoombie]

Okay!

You.

Have.

No.

Idea.

What.

Living.

In.

A.

Facist.

Dictatorship.

Is.

Like!

[Zoombie]

See, here's how it is.

Imagine a constant, creeping, and ever present terror. This is a terror that has both form and face, not that you have ever seen any of those faces. All you'd have is a name: Secret Police.

Imagine that at any time, if you say the wrong things, or do the wrong things, or think the wrong things, a knock on the door will come in the dead of the night...and you will vanish. Your family will vanish. You will be *gone*, and everyone who used to know you will simply accept it, cause people just vanish in this kind of government.

Terror, brutality, and complete oppression are the norms in a fascist dictatorship.

To say that you are living under a fascist directorship while you are in the United States of America or any other first world country is pretty much like asking pity for living in a paradise while people are actually living in a fascist dictatorship.

[Don]

Yeah, Zoombie, as long as they don't actually start using things like that Missouri Information Analysis Center Report (http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/2009/mar/22/militia-report-evokes-flurry-of-criticism/) or having the Secret Service search people's homes because of signs in their car (http://newsok.com/okc-officer-pulls-man-over-for-anti-obama-sign-on-vehicle/article/3347038?custom_click=headlines_widget), or pass something like a Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act (http://www.democracynow.org/2007/11/20/homegrown_terrorism_prevention_act_raises_fears) we've got nothing to worry about. Just thinking about doing somebody harm isn't the same as actually doing anything, right?

[ad_lucem]

Big corporations completely control the important decisions made in this country, and they own both political parties.

Our elections are a farce because there isn't much of a difference between democrats and republicans. The only difference is this:

Republicans say when corporations defecate, you're going to eat their feces and like it.

Democrats say you still have to eat big corporate feces, but we're going to mix sugar with it.

At least the republicans are honest. Democrats claim to be the party of the middle class, but when push comes to shove almost always side with big corporations.

Republicans? Honest?

Other than that, yeah. I'm in agreement: Bilderberg.

We got owned ages ago. Neoserfdom. But, at least we have access to cheap thrills, anti-depressants, libraries, and booze.

[ad_lucem]

Okay!

You.

Have.

No.

Idea.

What.

Living.

In.

A.

Facist.

Dictatorship.

Is.

Like!

It depends on the facist and the sort of dictator. Military dictatorship and Nazi-style fascism, no nothing like that.

Say, does anyone remember who said that if America adopted facism they'd put a smiley face on it?

You can have comfort and fascism. Huxley figured out a long time ago that keeping the masses fat, stupid, and happy was probably the best way to hold onto control.

[dclary]

It depends on the facist and the sort of dictator. Military dictatorship and Nazi-style fascism, no nothing like that.

Say, does anyone remember who said that if America adopted facism they'd put a smiley face on it?

You can have comfort and fascism. Huxley figured out a long time ago that keeping the masses fat, stupid, and happy was probably the best way to hold onto control.

Someday, people are going to realize that Orwell and Huxley were just fiction writers.

That will be a good day.

[dclary]

There's only one thing I don't joke about.

and that is sandwiches.


QFT.

[ad_lucem]

Someday, people are going to realize that Orwell and Huxley were just fiction writers.

That will be a good day.

Maybe, but it will be a boring one.

Edit to add, I don't actually believe in dystopias. The edges are to clean cut and bland--much the same as utopian tripe. The ideas presented have some traction, though (just as some utopian ideas aren't completely ridiculous).

The corporations do own us. I really worry for anyone who looked at the last three presidential election ballots and didn't see them as a sick joke. Bush or Gore? Kerry or Bush? Obama or McCain? You call those options?????????????????

[BenPanced]

Going to disagree with you on this one, Celina. Corporatism and Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism) are intricately linked.
From what I've read, the section concludes nothing, only addressing an ideology. I didn't see anything concrete and irrefutable to prove this link.

[ad_lucem]

From what I've read, the section concludes nothing, only addressing a misquote attritbuted to Mussolini and quoting passages from FDR. I didn't see anything concrete and irrefutable.

Of course not, all discussions of this sort amount to a lot of pissing in the wind.

:)

[BenPanced]

Of course not, all discussions of this sort amount to a lot of pissing in the wind.

:)
And I'll be the first to admit I don't see Wikipedia as The Final Authority.

[ad_lucem]

And I'll be the first to admit I don't see Wikipedia as The Final Authority.

Awww, why not?

I blame the Irish:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/07/AR2009050700855.html

[TerzaRima]

I think we ceased being an informed populace in favor of spending our energy and money on Nintendo, Girls Gone Wild, and breast implants; and now we're reaping the fruits of those decisions.

You may be right. I have been informed the last few weeks by various people that

-The Da Vinci Code is true because there is a bibliography in the back

-People should avoid eating pork products because of the swine flu

-Ritalin makes you sterile

I make fun of Mr Rima because he mutters dire things under his breath about bread and circuses when he flips channels and sees ads for crap TV like Celebrity Apprentice, but the man has a point.

[AMCrenshaw]

Someday, people are going to realize that Orwell and Huxley were just fiction writers.

That will be a good day.

Deek, have you read Orwell and Huxley? Have you read beyond their fiction? I'll make no assumptions.


Someday, people are going to realize that Orwell and Huxley were also essayists and intellectuals and had a penchant for clairvoyance. That fiction writers have a lot in common with journalists and historians in that they narrativize what they perceive as the truth. But what's funny is I probably won't hear you say that the Gospel writers were just fiction writers or mythmakers (when much of their structure is borrowed from the Egyptians and Greeks to lend as evidence). There is of no use putting down people who puts their ideas (which are in fact important to many of us) in motion, into action-- in fact, many of us here do just that and I wouldn't call them or recommend calling them "just fiction writers".


AMC

[Medievalist]

I make fun of Mr Rima because he mutters dire things under his breath about bread and circuses when he flips channels and sees ads for crap TV like Celebrity Apprentice, but the man has a point.

He totally has a point. I've been slowly re-reading Gibbons' Decline and Fall, and we are re-living the last eras of the Roman Empire.

Right down to fashions in women's clothing.

[Higgins]

He totally has a point. I've been slowly re-reading Gibbons' Decline and Fall, and we are re-living the last eras of the Roman Empire.

Right down to fashions in women's clothing.

Wake me up when you get to the part where Empress-to-be Theodora does a nude show with a goose in the Hippodrome.

Thank you Emperor Justinian, for the Law Code and Theodora. (Hereafter followeth the Wikipedia image of Theodora):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Theodora_mosaik_ravenna.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Theodora_mosaik_ravenna.jpg)

[ad_lucem]

He totally has a point. I've been slowly re-reading Gibbons' Decline and Fall, and we are re-living the last eras of the Roman Empire.

Right down to fashions in women's clothing.

Does anyone here read Dmitri Orlov? I'm not necessarily a doomer, but I loved his "Fuffleland" post. Speaking of decline...

[ad_lucem]

You may be right. I have been informed the last few weeks by various people that

-The Da Vinci Code is true because there is a bibliography in the back

-People should avoid eating pork products because of the swine flu

-Ritalin makes you sterile

I make fun of Mr Rima because he mutters dire things under his breath about bread and circuses when he flips channels and sees ads for crap TV like Celebrity Apprentice, but the man has a point.


What? Nothing about 2012?

[Tifferbugz]

He totally has a point. I've been slowly re-reading Gibbons' Decline and Fall, and we are re-living the last eras of the Roman Empire.

Right down to fashions in women's clothing.

I didn't realize that capris and t-shirts were so popular in Rome. >.>

[robeiae]

Well, it depends on how you define fascism, which is getting more and more hair splitty and confusing every day.

But, as the Nazis called themselves fascist, were called fascists by others, and are considered to be the general idea of fascists (and they did a hell of a lot more than the Italians ever did) so I'm just gonna stick with the whole "Nazis were Fascists" thing.

That's my story and I am sticking too it till someone gives me better evidence
National Socialism was--essentially--fascism-lite. That means Mussolini was more of a fascist than Hitler. FWIW.

[robeiae]

Going to disagree with you on this one, Celina. Corporatism and Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism) are intricately linked.Correct. But the corporatism of which you speak has almost nothing to do with the "corporate structures" of which Celina speaks.

And Capitalism prefers the non-democratic state.Incorrect. And demonstrably so.


As my favorite author puts it, "Capitalism was content under Hitler, happy under Mussolini, very happy under Franco and delirious under General Pinochet."
Your favorite author has a sophomoric understanding of these things. Sorry.
It's why businesses like China so much these days. There won't be any unions or wage demands there. Or at least not for long.
Capitalism =/= exploitation as a matter of course. Labeling anything that a business does as "capitalist" is simply wrong-headed. Mercantilism is the more appropriate "ism" at work here, regardless.

[Don Allen]

Going to disagree with you on this one, Celina. Corporatism and Fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Fascist_corporatism) are intricately linked.

And Capitalism prefers the non-democratic state.

I've heard this argument before but, have never been given proof of its existence since true free market capitalism was never practiced in something other than a democratic state.

As my favorite author puts it, "Capitalism was content under Hitler, happy under Mussolini, very happy under Franco and delirious under General Pinochet."
I have no idea who he may be, but I would contend he wrote fiction because again free market capitalism never existed under these regimes.

It's why businesses like China so much these days. There won't be any unions or wage demands there. Or at least not for long.

China's businesses are ran by government agencies, you realize that don't you, that is not free market capitalism either.

[Don Allen]

Okay children, a quick history lesson because you're pissing me off.

Websters Definition: FASCISM-1. A philosophy or governmental system marked by stringent socioeconomic control, a strong central governments. headed by a dictator, and often a belligerently nationalistic policy. 2. Oppressive,dictatorial control.

Some recent examples: Saddamn Hussein, Momar Khadafi, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo,,,,on and on and on.....

Now you people can keep pissing down each others back and telling each other that it's raining, but America is NOT NOW, or even remotely close to becoming a fascist country, economy, dictatorship, or any of the other silly things I've read.

In addition, what everyone here seems to conveniently miss, or possible just be misinformed about, is that every dictator and fascist government I mentioned skimmed right off the top for their personal wealth, friends, or whatever,,,, on top of charging exorbitant tax rates. Their only economic success was the pilfer of natural resources as in Saddams case, or devoting half the fucking country to producing military hardware like Hitler, you tell me how that's so much better than what we have.....

[Don Allen]

Rob,,,, we cross posted, great minds, huh?

[Medievalist]

I didn't realize that capris and t-shirts were so popular in Rome. >.>

You wait.

When women start deliberately exposing their nipples in public, which happened in the reign of Nero, we'll see who's laughing.

[Don]

Um, Janet Jackson? Any award ceremony that involves a red carpet?

[ad_lucem]

Okay children, a quick history lesson because you're pissing me off.

Websters Definition: FASCISM-1. A philosophy or governmental system marked by stringent socioeconomic control, a strong central governments. headed by a dictator, and often a belligerently nationalistic policy. 2. Oppressive,dictatorial control.

Some recent examples: Saddamn Hussein, Momar Khadafi, Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo,,,,on and on and on.....

Now you people can keep pissing down each others back and telling each other that it's raining, but America is NOT NOW, or even remotely close to becoming a fascist country, economy, dictatorship, or any of the other silly things I've read.

In addition, what everyone here seems to conveniently miss, or possible just be misinformed about, is that every dictator and fascist government I mentioned skimmed right off the top for their personal wealth, friends, or whatever,,,, on top of charging exorbitant tax rates. Their only economic success was the pilfer of natural resources as in Saddams case, or devoting half the fucking country to producing military hardware like Hitler, you tell me how that's so much better than what we have.....


Don't think anyone is saying that's "so much better" more of a..."we'd better watch our butts or we'll have that".

There are some serious weeds growing in the garden of democracy:

1) Bail-outs to failed banks who just so happen to be deeply tied to our elected officials.

2) Central banks--not run by the gov but in cahoots. Inflation is a tax.

3) "belligerently nationalistic policy" tell me how we're not belligerently nationalistic with some of our "this is our lifestyle and we're keeping it no matter what" tripe.

The two parties are a joke. We need representatives. Real ones. No lobbying, nada...people who represent the people. Or we will have true fascism.

[Fullback]

The US doesn't fulfill Webster's definition. The dictator part is the only one missing, right now...

[Dommo]

That's where I come in. Give me another 10 years, and you can all bow down before me, as I lead our great nation to victory.

[Don Allen]

Don't think anyone is saying that's "so much better" more of a..."we'd better watch our butts or we'll have that".

There are some serious weeds growing in the garden of democracy:

1) Bail-outs to failed banks who just so happen to be deeply tied to our elected officials.

Banks are failing because BIG BUSINESS managed to persuade a lot of legislators from the Carter administration through the Bush administration that safe guards such as the famously repealed Glass/Stegal act were not needed in a free market........Bullshit!!!!!! BIG BUSINESS was wrong, and a free market needs regulations so that BIG BUSINESS doesn't trip on it's own appendage like it has now and needs a bailout, um that's not a weed of democracy, it's UNCHECKED GREED.

2) Central banks--not run by the gov but in cahoots. Inflation is a tax.

The government has had a federal reserve for a very long time, The fed reserve is a BIG BANK and we've done fine, but again I point you to de-regulation and people running amok, that finds us in a situation where the GOVERNMENT has been FORCED to assume some sort of control over these monoliths or risk destroying the economic fiber of the nation and possibly the world for years and years to come, again not caused by GOVERNMENT NEED, but by BANKER AND INDIVIDUAL GREED

3) "belligerently nationalistic policy" tell me how we're not belligerently nationalistic with some of our "this is our lifestyle and we're keeping it no matter what" tripe.I don't understand what the hell you're talking about here.

The two parties are a joke. We need representatives. Real ones. No lobbying, nada...people who represent the people. Or we will have true fascism.Lobby's need to be regulated better, AGREED, If you want better representatives I suggest you get more people with your views to VOTE instead of sitting at home bitching about the people who won, because they didn't VOTE.

No... Go back and read the definition again. Trust me on this, you don't want fascism in any form, and we don't have it in any form except the Federal prison system which practices it daily.

[Don Allen]

The US doesn't fulfill Webster's definition. The dictator part is the only one missing, right now...


The sad part is that 75 years ago in your country I don't believe you would have been able to express that opinion, fascism has a way of muting Freedom of Speech. The American political system is certainly not perfect, and neither are Americans, but the American Constitution is about as near perfect a set of laws that has ever been created by man,,, if you're of the mind that the 10 Commandments was the word of God.


I don't care that you debate the merits of Fascism or even suggest that in some way America may seem to employ Fascist tendency's, but Americans don't have numbers burned into their skins, heads lopped off in public places, or practice forms of genocide on our neighbors because we're bigger than they are, and Fascist's do...

Fascism is the epitome of evil based exclusively on NATIONALISM, (We're better than you because we're WHITE, BLACK, MUSLIM, CATHOLIC, ATHEIST, whatever, this argument is silly, and to discuss it any further is sillier, goodnight....

[ad_lucem]

Lobby's need to be regulated better, AGREED, If you want better representatives I suggest you get more people with your views to VOTE instead of sitting at home bitching about the people who won, because they didn't VOTE.

No... Go back and read the definition again. Trust me on this, you don't want fascism in any form, and we don't have it in any form except the Federal prison system which practices it daily.

Look, I contact my congresscritter whenever something pisses me off. I do. And as for my hometown rep. I actually voted for him because he listened to his constituents consistently. I'm an asshole protester, even, when the moment is right (not when it becomes fashionable--I was protesting the Iraq war in 2002/2003 before there was the mess we have now). Although, I haven't gone out with the tea-baggers because of the assclownery and lack of direction in the movement.

The problem is in the "big time" of presidential elections, my choices have been, as Southpark once pointed out, the option of a giant douchebag or a shitsandwich. I know, I know, of two evils elect the lesser, but C'MON...I'd like to vote for somebody I didn't think was a shitsandwich or giant douche. I've registered Rep and Dem even to try and get in on the stupid pre-election process.

I actually drug the kids to an Obama rally hoping to hear something more than rhetoric.

Federal prison system is a dangerous blight on democracy, but I won't go there. I have horror stories.

We need to fear the corporate interests and fight them with fascism in the back of our minds because it's always there. It's always waiting--even in a democracy.

Any attempt to squash dissent or okay torture is evil trying to get a grab at power. In a declining empire, this is particularly true (and we are in a state of decline presently...barring actions to circumvent it...just take a minute to think about China's recent currency moves).

I don't feel like I have a stake in my government, because I don't have the money to play. I think a lot of people feel this way. I'm not anti-Obama or anti-left...I'm actually more left than right, but I don't really feel "home" in either party.

Lots of presidents have done naughty things...all the way back to Madison with the Alien and Sedition Acts (every bit as unconstitutional in flavor as the Patriot Act).

Democracy, true democracy needs constant tending for weeds. Weeds are human nature. Our founding fathers (nutty tho they may have been at times) knew it when they set up the three branches of government.

Calling the country facist, while a step over the line of current reality, is still a reasonable warning cry given the moves being played at the moment.

[MattW]

Um, Janet Jackson? Any award ceremony that involves a red carpet?Depending on the camera angle as they get out of their cars, we see much more than a nipple.

[ad_lucem]

That's where I come in. Give me another 10 years, and you can all bow down before me, as I lead our great nation to victory.


Actually, I'm hoping in another 10 years our country will fully oust bullshit from the halls of power or at least stick it in a playpen at the back corner of the whitehouse.

But the people had better wake up, place money on the back burner and value something real for a change...

[cethklein]

You have no idea what living in a fascist dictatorship is like.

Agreed. I immediately stop taking seriously anyone who uses words like fascist and dictatorship to describe America or most other nations in the West. I know people who lived under all three of those things, including relatives. to use such terms simply to emphasize one's point is not only juvenile, it borders on absurd and is an insult to the millions of victims of fascism and dictatorships.

Go live in North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or even China and then come back and tell us how "fascist" you think America is. Go live in a nation that mandates who is allowed to drink milk and what you're allowed to say about the government (like Cuba) or that mandates how many children you can have or what you're allowed to read and watch (China, Iran) or that controls you completely (North Korea).

Go find someone who lived in Italy during the late 30s and ask them if they think America is fascist.

[MordechaiGoodbuds]

Zoombie,

You completely ignored my point.

Yes, we have civil rights in American fascism, but we have no real political choice.

Don Allen,

You're wrong. We do have a dictator in this country and it's called big business. The political leaders are merely puppet heads of the business interests.

The real definition of fascism is a system in which business is married to government.

That's exactly what the United States is.

[Gretad08]

:Trophy:Agreed. I immediately stop taking seriously anyone who uses words like fascist and dictatorship to describe America or most other nations in the West. I know people who lived under all three of those things, including relatives. to use such terms simply to emphasize one's point is not only juvenile, it borders on absurd and is an insult to the millions of victims of fascism and dictatorships.

Go live in North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or even China and then come back and tell us how "fascist" you think America is. Go live in a nation that mandates who is allowed to drink milk and what you're allowed to say about the government (like Cuba) or that mandates how many children you can have or what you're allowed to read and watch (China, Iran) or that controls you completely (North Korea).

Go find someone who lived in Italy during the late 30s and ask them if they think America is fascist.


:Trophy: You get a trophy for this post! Well said CethKlein!

[Captshady]

Politicians and Political Scientists are often using the term "European Socialism" to describe the nanny state like governments of Europe, with more government controlled industry than the U.S. Some have their military doing the work of what municipal law enforcement does here.

Forgive my taking those educated in Political Sciences word over anyone's here. Socialism doesn't always mean you're under the thumb of a single tyrant.

[Romantic Heretic]

I don't regard wikipedia as the 'true source' of all knowledge either. But that portion I linked does fit with my understanding of the link between fascism and corporatism.

And in regards to capitalism prefering non-democratic governments, let's take a little look at history.

The first high point of capitalism in the U.S. was when slavery was still extant and the franchise was limited pretty much to white men with property. The second high point was the Gilded Age, when minorities and women still didn't have the vote or the right to run for office. And many people in the U.S. were recent immigrants who weren't yet citizens. Democracy was at a nadir in these times.

Capitalism wasn't happy when the Depression made a lot more people politically active and bought Roosevelt into power. It remained unhappy until Nixon. At that time fewer and fewer people became politically active. Now, what is it? Barely half bother to vote for President and far less vote for the Congress, Senate, state and municipal offices. And the business community has been pretty pleased with that.

In Britain the high point was at the start of the Industrial Revolution, when it was in the grip of the 'Rotten Borough' system. Voting wasn't secret and Lords bought the voters and could check how they voted. The vote was severely limited. Place with just a few hundred voters sent Members to Parliament and large cities like Manchester did not. But it was a great time for capitalism.

In France capitalism did best under Napoleon III and Louis-Napoleon, who were dictators. In Russia the last Czar oversaw a huge increase in capitalist activity.

And as I noted, capitalism is very pleased with China.

And if capitalism likes democracy so much, why are there no businesses organized along democratic lines?

You can disagree, and I know many will. But capitalism, in my opinion, doesn't care much for democracy.

[mscelina]

Rob,you are wrong. So inutterably and ridiculously wrong that it pains me to even write it.

Capitalism is about free trade. Capitalism is dependent upon governments that encourage free trade. Democracy encourages free trade. To say that because 'businesses aren't set up along democratic lines' means that capitalism is akin to fascism is ill-informed. Actually, if you wanted to get particular about it, corporations with voting stockholders are set up along democratic lines.

Read the definitions of fascism, capitalism, democracy and so forth and see if you can't learn any better.

The first high point of capitalism was slavery? c'mon already! try to remember (if you can) that the slavery trade was established and propogated by lots and lots of British sea captains and shipping companies, thank you very much. Feel free to overlook the Industrial Revolution, because that doesn't fit into your political viewpoint.

And for the last damn time, the US isn't a democracy. We are a democratic republic.

[robeiae]

I don't regard wikipedia as the 'true source' of all knowledge either. But that portion I linked does fit with my understanding of the link between fascism and corporatism.The corporatism that is linked to fascism is really an early modern system. It is--again--unrelated to modern corporate structures. They just both share the same latin root word. Here's a good overview:

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/corporatism.htm

And here's a thread where I've gone through this, before (start at post 130):

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92384&page=6

And in regards to capitalism prefering non-democratic governments, let's take a little look at history.

The first high point of capitalism in the U.S. was when slavery was still extant and the franchise was limited pretty much to white men with property.
You don't have a clear understanding of capitalism. This is simply not true, in the way you want it to be.

Slavery was not a "high point" for capitalism, at all. It was a dead end and really not even capitalist in orientation. The U.S. was not really a wealthy nation while slavery was extant. And what wealth it did have was growing--thanks to capitalism--in the NORTH, where slavery was not a dominant institution.

Slavery as an economic institution functions like peasant and serf-based economies: wealth is tightly held and not used as CAPITAL, by and large, thus capitalism is not relevant. There is no sustainable economic growth within the system. It requires resources from without to grow and merely sustain itself (resources like more slaves and more land). This is why wealth in the South was dissipating in the older areas, like Virginia. In contrast, the older regions of New England--like Boston and New York--were experiencing real growth and wealth was being CREATED, not just accumulated.

Capitalism functions best when there are free markets--in everything--and free markets are more common in societies with democratic institutions, not autocratic ones.

[Diana Hignutt]

[quote=ad_lucem;3605148]
Lots of presidents have done naughty things...all the way back to Madison with the Alien and Sedition Acts (every bit as unconstitutional in flavor as the Patriot Act).

quote]


Yeah, that was Adams (John, pres #2), not Madison. As Mr. Madison's official representative to AW, I demand an apology.

[ad_lucem]

[quote=ad_lucem;3605148]
Lots of presidents have done naughty things...all the way back to Madison with the Alien and Sedition Acts (every bit as unconstitutional in flavor as the Patriot Act).

quote]


Yeah, that was Adams (John, pres #2), not Madison. As Mr. Madison's official representative to AW, I demand an apology.

Ugh. Yes, Adams, I misspoke bigtime. Madison and Jefferson where the ones protesting it.

Too many dead white guys. They all look alike. :D

[dclary]

[quote=ad_lucem;3605148]
Lots of presidents have done naughty things...all the way back to Madison with the Alien and Sedition Acts (every bit as unconstitutional in flavor as the Patriot Act).

quote]


Yeah, that was Adams (John, pres #2), not Madison. As Mr. Madison's official representative to AW, I demand an apology.

You're giving away your age, hun.

;)

[robeiae]

As Mr. Madison's official representative to AW, I demand an apology.
I believe that job is mine.

You may be Mr. Jefferson's official representative, however. Besides, Madison is too much of a Hobbesian for you...

[MattW]

As long as no one is defending Hamilton, we can keep the pistols locked in their case....

[Stew21]

Careful or Andrew Jackson might rise from the grave and challenge you to a duel.

[Don]

As long as no one is defending Hamilton, we can keep the pistols locked in their case....
Somebody here <3s Hamilton. Come on, who is it, fess up. It's somebody young, I remember that, 'cause I figured they'd grow out of it. :ROFL:

[robeiae]

Somebody here <3s Hamilton. Come on, who is it, fess up. It's somebody young, I remember that, 'cause I figured they'd grow out of it. :ROFL:
Nope. That's me, too. As well as Andy Jackson. But Trish already knew that.

[donroc]

Derail. Idea for a novel I do not intend to write -- lost manuscripts of Aaron Burr. Did he get a bum rap because he wrote nothing, whereas his enemies were prolific writers?

[dclary]

AHWNN BUHHHHH!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLSsswr6z9Y

[ad_lucem]

Derail. Idea for a novel I do not intend to write -- lost manuscripts of Aaron Burr. Did he get a bum rap because he wrote nothing, whereas his enemies were prolific writers?

History favors the people who record their actions, in detail and in print.

It also likes the winners.

That's why I like archeology. :D