No Outlines, Please

[Button]

Hello!

I wondered how many people here don't outline.

I've been trying to outline my next novel, I just can't. It's not in me to figure out what comes next in the story. That's the character's job, not mine. :)

I just put them in the tight spots and let them go on from there. Are there others that simply can not write with an outline?

[alanna]

i tried figuring things out beforehand. lol, my characters mutinied until I let them run the show.

[E.G. Gammon]

For me, outlining depends on the complexity of the story. My planned 6-novel series I have been developing for over seven years has over 80 characters and a very complex story. I am outlining it now and it, by itself, could be a novel, it's so long. But, for a regular novel, with a basic story, I don't feel outlines are necessary. A writer should have a general idea of the ending, to know where they are headed while writing the story, though. But, it really depends on the writer I guess.

[Jamesaritchie]

Hello!

I wondered how many people here don't outline.

I've been trying to outline my next novel, I just can't. It's not in me to figure out what comes next in the story. That's the character's job, not mine. :)

I just put them in the tight spots and let them go on from there. Are there others that simply can not write with an outline?

I hate outlining anything. My writing works just fine without it, so I don't do it. Neither do my favorite writers, which has always led me to believe that one thing a new writer should try is immulating the way his favorite writer or two works.

I think very good novels can be written using outlines, and very good novels can be written without outlines, but I can usually see differences in the two.

If nothing else, looking at how your favorite writer or three works gives you a starting point, and will let you understand that it isn't necessary to outline a novel in order to write a good one, or that you can also write a good one by outlining.

When I started feeling a bit guilty about writing without outlines, I looked into the writing mathods of all my favorite writers, and I found only one used outlines, and not terribly detailed outlines, at that. This told me what I was doing was fine. It also told me I seemed to like the novels of writers who didn't outline more than the novels of those who did.

We all haveto do it our own way, and the right way is always whatever way works for you. But I would suggest looking into the writing methods of a dozen or so novelists you really like. Look for a pattern, and do thou likewise.
If it doesn't work, do thou the opposite.

[Julie Worth]

Do you outline a conversation? No, of course not. Same thing with a novel. Outlines are death.

[SRHowen]

Ditto on what James said.

The reason so many new writers think you must outline is that when you learn to write a story in school you are told to do an outline first--turn in your list of characters by Friday, turn in your story outline by Monday and so on.

I left a dif board, well was driven out, by a person there who thought they knew it all (she didn't have an agent, and never published one word)(but was popular) who posted a thread like this--she asked do you outline or not and why. It was about the 5th or 6th thread in a row about outlining. I started out with--eee gadds not another outlining thread and then went into what James said above. She came back and told me I was doing new writers harm by telling them not to outline (I didn't I just said I didn't do it) and she went on to say just think of how much better your writing could be if you outlined. She'd never read a thing I had written.

So it can be a strong debate at times, most outliners can not see how those of us who don't outline ever come up with a working story--and good ones at that.

Write in whatever way works for you, there is no rule that says you have to do one or the other or that one or the other is the right way.

The right way is your way.

Period.

Shawn

[Julie Worth]

The right way is your way.

Period.



I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

I really like "Basic" outlines. I can't stress basic enough. I like to write two or three steps ahed of my WIP and keep running tabs on what I'd like to accomplish, but I start with the climax in mind. It is by no means a full outline, most of my outlines read, "The market scene," or "Jim at the movies." It helps me understand the flow. I like the fact that some people dont even do that, it's a great gift. The flow is usualy better and you really get a real close sense of what your characters are like as real people, if that makes sense.
For people like me, I guess it just goes with the style of creation. Do what works, in the end, its all about your story, not whether you outline or not. So I guess were all the same, and that makes me happy. Just like in life, we dont all drive the same car, so wy would we constuct a novel the same way?

[clara bow]

I think an outline can help tighten the plot structure in advance. That way, you can see an overview of the novel at a glance and eliminate redundant or irrelevant scenes early on (or you might find you need more!). Me, I start with a very basic outline and then I jump around depending on what excites me to write first. Or sometimes the outline is in my head, but I don't bother writing it all down. Seems like the longer the novel, the more likely an outline will bring clarity to the project. An outline is just a tool, though, and of course does not work for everyone or every project (can you imagine outlining stream of consciousness? ;)).

What's in your toolbox?

[sunandshadow]

I've found that if I don't outline my stories have no plot. Outlining is hard, but I think I've learned a lot about the structure and rhythm of fiction from trying to do it.

[E.G. Gammon]

Do you outline a conversation? No, of course not. Same thing with a novel. Outlines are death.
I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

You and I must have different interpretations of an outline because I don't agree you when you say "outlines are death" and that being more detailed by planning the story out will make the novel boring. I see an outline as a "scene-by-scene" breakdown, saying "This character does this here, which introduces this character who says so and so, setting up "this" later in the novel in so and so chapter." It's not as detailed as outlining a conversation.
A chapter outline for me is 10 pages at the most - and I rarely have more than 8. I take that and I convert it into a chapter, adding (and sometimes changing things) as I go along. It's just like having the story in your head, only this way, you don't forget anything. You know where you are going and you have the map there to guide you; with it, you won't miss a turn, you can weave through all the small streets and back roads and climb through the winding mountains and you won't ever get lost.

Outlines are definitely important for a novel series, especially one with a complex story - like mine - and my novel isn't boring. Different writers have different methods and none of them are wrong - as long as they work.

Maybe those people you know - who planned everything out - have boring books because they can't write well; they wrote a complex, boring story which made the novel boring. Can you say for sure that the reason why those books are boring is because of the fact that they were outlined first? A book is boring because of the story that is told and the way the chapters are written, not how the story was approached and planned out. - JMO

[scribbler1382]

Saying "this is the way you do it" or "that is the only way to do it" is utter foolishness. Everyone's wired differently. What works for one, is hell for another. And vice versa. But as a point of fact, most writers I know don't actually do things the same way everytime. Some don't even do it the same way twice.

[sunandshadow]

Outlines are death.

An outline is a brief description of what happens in a book. For some people, knowing what happens in a book kills it, but for other people, how it happens is more important.

Consider the formula romance novel: Girl meets boy, they fall madly in love against their better judgement, and they live happily ever after. Knowing all that ahead of time, tens of thousands of women read and write them anyway.

[Jamesaritchie]

Saying "this is the way you do it" or "that is the only way to do it" is utter foolishness. Everyone's wired differently. What works for one, is hell for another. And vice versa. But as a point of fact, most writers I know don't actually do things the same way everytime. Some don't even do it the same way twice.

Shoot, I'm not even positive I do it the same way once. Odd as it sounds, I really mean it.

[Jamesaritchie]

Maybe those people you know - who planned everything out - have boring books because they can't write well; they wrote a complex, boring story which made the novel boring. Can you say for sure that the reason why those books are boring is because of the fact that they were outlined first? A book is boring because of the story that is told and the way the chapters are written, not how the story was approached and planned out. - JMO

I do think it's the outlining that kills some books for some writers, largely because they're afraid to veer away from the outline, or just don't understand how to put an outline together. A book can be boring because of the way the story is planned out.

Writing a detailed story outline properly is a skill unto itself, and probably takes as much talent to do right as actually writing the novel. It certainly takes as much skill at story structure, plot, theme, pace, and flow. Get these wrong in the outline, and they'll probably be wrong in the novel. Slavishly following an outline can also lead to a boring novel.

Not outlining a novel can also lead to boredom, again, not because of the writing, but because some writers need an outline to get story structure/plot/theme/pace/flow all working together as they should.

Not outlining does not mean some sort of stream of consciousness, organic writng style. It means knowing that the outline of the novel is in chapter one, and the story structure/plot/theme/pace/flow is all generated by chapter one.

Sometimes method does mean bad. If you outline, the outline needs to be right, and if you don't outline, the opening has to be right, or you risk a boring novel, no matter how well you write it.

[Richard White]

I have to use a basic outline for the current stories I have in production. However, that's because they're all media tie-in stories. I have to submit my proposal to the licensor, who wants to know exactly what I'm going to do with their product before they'll let me play with it.

Now, have I veered away from the proposal? Sure, but the basics to the story can't change once they've approved the work.

Work-for-hire novels/short stories are obviously a unique creature unto themselves, but if you want to play in that particular sandbox, then you have to play according to their rules.

However, having gotten used to that concept, my current WIP, an original fantasy novel, has a 14 page chapter breakdown outline. Again, I've already varied from the outline several times, but I'm still on the basic story.

For me, I LIKE doing outlines, character sketches, backgrounds, histories, etc. long before I ever start writing the story. If I "know" the world, it's easier to write in (and keep character's eye color, hair color, etc. straight), rather than just making it up on the fly.

But, then again, I think my training as a historian and an analyst tend to make me a fairly linear thinker. I CAN make the jump from point A to point G, but I need to know what B, C, D, E, and F probably are to feel comfortable.

Not everyone writes alike (thank goodness).

I see several people here who if I watched them work, I'd probably go nuts wondering how they do it, and I'd probably drive them nuts too. That's why, from a reader's perspective, book writing is like sausage making. The less you know about what goes into it, the more you can concentrate on just enjoying it. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/smilepopcorn.gif

[kelker11]

I tried to outline once, and it was a dismal failure (not to mention how LONG it took to actually try to figure out what would come next).

What works for me is to setup a background for my characters up to the point where the story starts. By the time I finished outlining their historys, I know them intimately, so its then easier for me to allow them to lead the story wherever they want.

The histories aren't huge, usually just one or two paragraphs setting up how they came to be who they are. For some reason, this seems to make my writing come much easier.

Of course, this is my first book, so its not like I'm an expert or anything. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[aruna]

I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

I agree with you! But don't tell anyone!!!

[oneidii]

Hi all,

My first book I wrote using an outline, just changing it as I went along. I started my next big idea, tried to write an outline and the characters absolutely refused to have anything to do with it. It was the first experience for me to have this happen, and I must admit I was shocked. I had read about that particular experience on this board before, with other writers, and thought, "surely NOT--they are MY characters, they will do what I tell them to!"

And they said not.

So now we have compromised--I have no outline, and they perform to make my story. It goes well, and I think I will try without an outline from here on out. It is quite liberating. :)

[Supafly]

I've found that outlining usually leads to a book that ends on the first page. It seems that whenever I do one, its gives me a false sense of completion, because I know exactly what is going to happen from beginning to end and I have no desire to write. It also allows the characters to develop freely rather than being bogged down to a preset outline. This is my instance, because when I write I just think of the end and start the beginning and make it up as I go along. Again, in my experience, outlining is a bad idea. Some people might love it. Not me.

[Christine N.]

I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

LOL I think he meant that whatever way is right for you, is, well, right for you.

Me, I can't outline. I'm with Stephen King on that one. That's not to say I don't take notes. I usually have a general idea of where the story is going to go. But I like now knowing the end. Makes it fun to write.

To me, outlining is too much lilke work, like doing a school report. Ick, I didn't go to Graduate School because I didn't want to write a Thesis.

[James D. Macdonald]

I outline very fully. My outlines are about 75% of the finished novel.

These are outlines that include dialog, description, exposition....

Could be that anyone else looking at one of 'em would call it a "first draft." That I'm just calling it an outline to give myself permission to mess up, so that I won't take it too seriously and so I know that all this will change and be re-written before an editor sees it.

The bottom line on outlines is "do what works for you."

"There are nine and sixty ways of constructing tribal lays
And every single one of them is right."

[Jamesaritchie]

It should be clear by now that what works, works. And there are probably a smany variation with outliners and non-outliners as there are writers.

I have a friend who does a very long, extremely detailed outline, but almost never follows it past chapter four or five. When he does veer away, he stops writing and does a second very long, extremely detailed outline from the point where he veered. When he again veers away, he does a third very long, very detailed outline. On and on until the novel is finished.

I've rather chew ground glass and crap marbles than even attempt to write this way, but it works very well for him.

I know non-outliners who start at page one and write straight through, others who write the ending first, still others who skip around and write all over the place until they somehow have a finished novel. I could do this if a ten million dollar advance depended on it.

I've ghosted a couple fo novels where the outline was given to me, and no veering allowed. That was a miserable, ulcerative experience, but I can't say the novels came out horrible. They didn't come out the way I would have written them, but I don't think they were junk, either.

The thing to remember, I think, is that agents, editors, and readers see only the finished product, and if they like it, how you got there won't matter to any of them.

What I'd say is do what you enjoy. Writing should be fun, and if the method you're using isn't a pleasure, change it. And method should produce a good publishable novel. If it doesn't change, try something new.

If you're getting right, leave it the heck alone, even if you're method involves chicken blood and flea gonads.

[mistri]

I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

Are you suggesting all people who plan things out are immensely boring? I can't tell.

In any case, I firmly believe there are a number of ways to write great fiction. I think it would be immensely boring if everyone used the same method to write (ok, there is one method most people use: butt in chair).

[Jamesaritchie]

Are you suggesting all people who plan things out are immensely boring? I can't tell.

In any case, I firmly believe there are a number of ways to write great fiction. I think it would be immensely boring if everyone used the same method to write (ok, there is one method most people use: butt in chair).

Yep, and even BIC doesn't apply to the writers I've known who write while standing up.

[Julie Worth]

Are you suggesting all people who plan things out are immensely boring? I can't tell.

Heck, I was just talking about some people I know. But I don't know everyone!

Not so long ago I was in industrial research, and in those days I learned to follow my nose. I noticed that people who didn't, who planned everything, never got where they were going, or else it took years and years. But there were so many interesting things on the way, if you kept your eyes open, you'd discover them. Things you never expected. And it's the same with writing: Follow your nose.

[mistri]

It is possible to write an outline *and* follow your nose, you know. I use an outline to stop me falling into a black pit of despair of 'what happens next?', and to avoid plot holes, but I still listen to what the story tells me. Outlines can be altered.

I always find it a bit odd when writers (generally, not just here) try to say there's just one (best) way of doing something.

[fallenangelwriter]

I have not yet actually wrote an outline, but i generally have a loose "mental outline". that is, when i'm not writing (in the car, doing chores, whatever) i think about where the book is going. generally, I have the beginnign, the end, and several points in the middle worked out in advance. the actual act of writing is where i play connect-the-dots. of course, nothign ever works out exactly the way i expect and i keep revising the ending to reflect unexpected things that happened along the way, but knowing where i'm going really helps me.

[Pencilone]

I have found out (the long way:) ) that what works for me is a mixture of the two methods.

First I write draft 1 (or you can call it zero) without any outline and I let the characters drive the way. I found this allowed me to make a lot of progress with my word count as I did not aim for a perfect version, and I just let the story carve by itself.

When draft 1 is finished, then I go back and start to outline the story I have got and that is where I have found that the real work begins (the rewriting of the plot, scenes, characters, etc. ). The result is a detailed outline (where a lot of the plot gets shaped in a new form) and I feel that this is the way that allowed me to make some progress.

[mistri]

All an outline is, is an extended version of 'this is what my story is going to be about'. Even non-outline writers tend to have a vague idea of what the story is going to be about (even if it's as simple as 'it's about this character, who has these qualities') and I guess that's why I don't think of outliners and non-outliners all that differently.

[Jamesaritchie]

Even non-outline writers tend to have a vague idea of what the story is going to be about (even if it's as simple as 'it's about this character, who has these qualities') and I guess that's why I don't think of outliners and non-outliners all that differently.

I really don't have an idea where the story is going. Knowing where the story might be going is the last thing I want to have happen. I also don't want to know anything about what qualities my characters have. To me, thinking about character qualities is akin to character outlines/charts, and I detest those above all things on earth, with the possible exception of red clam chowder and, possibly, warm beer.

[brokenfingers]

I have not yet actually wrote an outline, but i generally have a loose "mental outline". that is, when i'm not writing (in the car, doing chores, whatever) i think about where the book is going. generally, I have the beginnign, the end, and several points in the middle worked out in advance. the actual act of writing is where i play connect-the-dots. of course, nothign ever works out exactly the way i expect and i keep revising the ending to reflect unexpected things that happened along the way, but knowing where i'm going really helps me.

This is probably closest to my method. I'm always thinking about the direction I'm going and veering towards landmarks I've set for myself along the way.

A crucial scene. A crucial character death or revelation. A conflict settled or made worse. The final showdown.

It's finding my way to these points (and sometimes avoiding them for other places I find along the way and like much better) that make the writing so much fun for me.

[Julie Worth]

I think what works is, in the end, dictated by what part of the brain you use when you write. If you’ve a fat and active forebrain, then you’ll likely be the planner type, outlining everything, happily writing chapters out of sequence. If your temporal lobe got stuck on high during a 70’s LSD trip, then you’ll be a rambler, free-associating through a wild thicket of poetic flora. And if you’re a no-brain experimentalist like me, you’ll set something up, give it a push, and watch it as it goes careening off, crashing through every sort of obstacle.

[brokenfingers]

Hmmm... what if your brain's pickled like mine?

[Thekherham]

Back in my early days of writing I tried outlining, but I found that, no matter how hard I tried to follow that outline my story always seemed to go off somewhere else, do their own thing...so I just let them. And I found that my stories still came out pretty good... not publishable, mind you, but not bad...

So I don't outline anymore. Now what I do is think a lot. I think my entire novel through, from beginning to end. I know who the chartacters, what they do, how they behave, how they interact with other characters... Having a job where you drive a lot helps too. I map out entire stories... novels... characters, settings, dialogue, civilizations... boldly going where no one has gone before.

[aruna]

I think what works is, in the end, dictated by what part of the brain you use when you write. If you’ve a fat and active forebrain, then you’ll likely be the planner type, outlining everything, happily writing chapters out of sequence. If your temporal lobe got stuck on high during a 70’s LSD trip, then you’ll be a rambler, free-associating through a wild thicket of poetic flora. And if you’re a no-brain experimentalist like me, you’ll set something up, give it a push, and watch it as it goes careening off, crashing through every sort of obstacle.



I'm a no-brain, and it seems to work.
My first novel wrote itself, bursting through straight into the keyboard and onto the screen. Everyone loved it, getting published was a breeze, and it sold well.

My publishers thought, however, that in future I needed help. For the seocnd two books they demanded a synopsis in advance, plus ongoing chapters so as to avoid the massive revisions the first one needed.

I hated those books. Never read them once they were finished. Some people liked them, strangely enough, but the publishers didn't and began having doubts about me. They didn't sell well at all.

For my fourth novel they demanded another synopsis in advance, and when I delivered it the editor sent me a loooong email saying what had to be changed.

So I told her to shove it and sailed off on my own with another no-brainer of a novel plunging onto the screen without ryhme or reason, no idea where I was going or how I'd get there.

I think it's my best one yet, much better than the first; time will tell if it will be accepted, but I am optimistic. However, I have to start from the beginning, looking for a new agent and publisher, having cast off the old ones; not dancing to their tune means that I'm now on my own! It's more dangerous but much more fun, and the writing is better.

The good thing about my first disappointing experience of publishing is that I am now much more savvy and don't have any illusions or high expectations; just a great deal of realism and the confidence to get there.

[mistri]

I really don't have an idea where the story is going. Knowing where the story might be going is the last thing I want to have happen. I also don't want to know anything about what qualities my characters have. To me, thinking about character qualities is akin to character outlines/charts, and I detest those above all things on earth, with the possible exception of red clam chowder and, possibly, warm beer.

But you know you're writing about a character, right? I don't know, I can't presume to know anything about non-outliners, because for the most part, I do outline (though they tend to be rather short outlines). I'm just guessing, really. All I meant is that I sometimes get a bit tired of outlining vs. non-outlining discussions, when all we're doing is writing a story, and we can't possibly all write them in the same way, so there's clearly nothing wrong with doing it differently.

I really shouldn't post when I've only had one cup of vending machine tea to go on :)

[Julie Worth]

But you know you're writing about a character, right? I don't know, I can't presume to know anything about non-outliners, because for the most part, I do outline (though they tend to be rather short outlines). I'm just guessing, really. All I meant is that I sometimes get a bit tired of outlining vs. non-outlining discussions, when all we're doing is writing a story, and we can't possibly all write them in the same way, so there's clearly nothing wrong with doing it differently.

I really shouldn't post when I've only had one cup of vending machine tea to go on :)

Writers are gods. Some gods are constantly intervening, tripping up the evil ones, passing guns to the good guys when they need them, while other gods are more hands off, granting free will to their characters. For them, if evil wins in the end, if all the characters roast in hell, so be it.

Thus you say to the publisher who wants to change you: outlining vs. not outlining is a religious issue, not open to discussion.

[Roger J Carlson]

I outline a chapter at a time and keep each one in a separate file. I only outline about 3 to 4 chapters ahead. I did outline my whole first book, but the story kept veering from the outline after about 3 or 4 chapters, so my present method keeps me pretty much on track without making the story inflexible.

[Niku]

Yep, and even BIC doesn't apply to the writers I've known who write while standing up.

I agree - it is nonsensical to be prescriptive about how to write. What's important is that you set yourself up in a way that works for you- if having an outline facilitates the process for you, then cool. If it doesn't work for you, then just see where the words take you - it's all good.

[SRHowen]

I can't agree with this without evidence. I KNOW people who plan everything out. They can't do otherwise. And they are IMMENSELY boring!

LOL--I think you are taking this wrong, I don't mean that one ro the other is right (as in the posters way) I mean that the right way to write a story is the way that works for the author.

Shawn

[SRHowen]

Not outlinning works like this for me.

Sit in chair.

Open Word Perfect.

Type

That's it.

I don't knwo what genre, what POV, or who is going to be speaking through me. The story plays out as I write it. My last novel started out on the shores of a lake. Ok, neat--turns out it was a lake in the town I grew up near. Even better. Then the main character shows up--whooo boy first person POV and male.

By the end of chapter one I knew what his conflict was, who would help him with the conflict or hinder him (at that point I had no idea) and I didn't know until the last line that it would contain supernatural elements. I had established the main character's background, who he was now, and the confllict in his background that led to his current conflict. All in 3000 words.

BY the next chapter I knew there would be time travel and so on.

I don't have any idea where I am going at all--I just tell the story as it unfolds.

BUT--I have to have the first chapter right---by about chapter 3, I can tell if it is going ot go no where. I go back trash it and start again, maybe with the same characters or maybe not. But that first chapter has to be a proper foundation.

I do go back and polish some but even that is only a tiny bit.

[azbikergirl]

I'm an outliner/planner. I can't get through the first draft without signposts leading me in the right direction. That's not to say I won't pull one up, take it with me and sink it back into the ground where I think it should go.

I recently started a short story, intending it to be a sort of prequel for a novel forming in my head. What came out was way different, and it might be one of the best stories I've ever written.

[Mike Martyn]

You are all missing the point. The outliners are real writers. The none outliners, which includes me, aren't writers at all. We're merely channeling for people in alternate universes. :)

[Julie Worth]

You are all missing the point. The outliners are real writers. The none outliners, which includes me, aren't writers at all. We're merely channeling for people in alternate universes. :)

I was going to say that! But you'd think, with all the dead writers out there, I could have found a better one to channel.

[SRHowen]

I was going to say that! But you'd think, with all the dead writers out there, I could have found a better one to channel.

Hmm, no not dead writers, channeling for people in alternate universes.

[Billie_Joe00]

I haven't done an outline for the book I'm writing at the minute. I have an idea in my head of where I want the story to go, and that is enough for me. But I do have a list of the characters friends etc once I have created them so that when I am writing the story I know what names to use, instead of creating new characters that are not needed.

[zornhau]

I'm a very very detailed outliner. So much so that you could argue that I really write a terse 1st draft.

Looking back over the thread, it seems that we're mostly dealing with a false antithesis. Many non-outliners do outline, but only mentally or even unconsciously. Many outliners are so detailed as to be drafting, or else they diverge or modify the outline as they draft.

As for character channeling - nice if you can do it. I'm wary of writing on instinct since they may lead you down the easiest or least original path, or drive you to bore the reader with pet obsessions.

Whatever gets you into paid print...

[aruna]

Looking back over the thread, it seems that we're mostly dealing with a false antithesis. Many non-outliners do outline, but only mentally or even unconsciously. Many outliners are so detailed as to be drafting, or else they diverge or modify the outline as they draft.

.

Outlining unconsciously doesn't count as outlining! I am convinced that when I start writing, the story is already finished somewhere inside of me and it just has to come out, and I just have to let it out. The whole thing, not just an outline.
Before I started my last novel I had not the slightest notion what it would be about, who the characters were, where they would go, or anything at all before I started writing. I just gave myself a date and a time to start (October 1st, 4 a.m.) and kept my appointment that day and every day since. I never knew what was going to happen next; but I knew it would be OK when I got there! That doesn't count as an outline, and anyway, it's the whole book that's coming out, a draft, yes, but with all the power of emotion that the finished product has to have.
The point of an outline is a conscious guideline to help you along the way so that you know where you are going - even if you don't keep to it later on. ANd it's written very rationally, logically and makes sense from the start; and is probably not as emotionally loaded as the final draft will be.

[SRHowen]

Outlining unconsciously doesn't count as outlining! I am convinced that when I start writing, the story is already finished somewhere inside of me and it just has to come out, and I just have to let it out. The whole thing, not just an outline.


Exactly!

For those of us who do not outline--anyway.

[Julie Worth]

I am convinced that when I start writing, the story is already finished somewhere inside of me and it just has to come out, and I just have to let it out. The whole thing, not just an outline.

This is definitely not true with me, because the storyline shifts constantly, depending upon things that happen while I’m writing. I’ll see something on the news, and the next morning some transmogrified version of it appears on the page. So the work is a bit of a concretion, with all sorts of random stuff sticking to it as it rolls along.

[sunandshadow]

So the work is a bit of a concretion, with all sorts of random stuff sticking to it as it rolls along.

Katamari Damacy! ;)

[Richard]

Is it just me who actually *likes* outlining? Working out a story, the characters, doing the research and tossing around ideas and so on until I have a solid grasp on what I'm doing is one of the parts of the writing process I most enjoy.

[Julie Worth]

Katamari Damacy! ;)

Hah!

[sunandshadow]

Is it just me who actually *likes* outlining? Working out a story, the characters, doing the research and tossing around ideas and so on until I have a solid grasp on what I'm doing is one of the parts of the writing process I most enjoy.

I think a lot of people like some of the R&D - Working out a mythological system, characters' personality types, drawing maps, sketching characters or monsters, making up a language, etc., but very few people love ALL of it. Personally I find plotting the most difficult aspect of writing, so naturally I find plot outlining difficult and irritating.

[DragonHeart]

I love the worldbuilding aspects but when I'm just beginning to develop my ideas I can't plot my way out of a paper bag. I find outlines are useless to my personal style, as most of my writing is done very sporadically. I'll have a great idea and write for an hour straight, then forget all about the piece until another idea sparks, days or even weeks later. Generally by then any plot notes/outlines I do have will be irrelevant since I'll end up taking the story in a completely different direction.

I figure it's partly because I never learned any helpful outlining methods, and partly because I'm constantly jumping from project to project. That's also why I never finish anything, but that's an entirely different subject in itself.

~DragonHeart~

[pepperlandgirl]

Outlining unconsciously doesn't count as outlining! I am convinced that when I start writing, the story is already finished somewhere inside of me and it just has to come out, and I just have to let it out. The whole thing, not just an outline.


This is true for me.

I've been working like mad on my current WIP, typing up to 5,000 words/day, and having a great time. I hit 20,000 words and realized I didn't have a conflict. I had three characters spending a lot of time together, having sex, and enjoying themselves and they were all perfectly happy to do so.

But I freaked out. No conflict! NO CONFLICT! How can I write an entire novel without a conflict?! I lost sleep, I forced my husband to help me, and I was miserable.

Finally, I just sat down and started writing, putting my fingers in control. Within an hour, not only did I have a conflict, but I discovered some wonderful things about my characters I never suspected. Nearly 30,000 words later, I'm still going along happily, plenty of conflit to go around.

This happens to me every time I have writer's block. If I force it, nothing happens. If I just relax, put fingers to keyboard, and write without thinking, I can churn out thousands of words at a time. Words for stories I never suspected in a million years.

[Jamesaritchie]

This is true for me.

I've been working like mad on my current WIP, typing up to 5,000 words/day, and having a great time. I hit 20,000 words and realized I didn't have a conflict. I had three characters spending a lot of time together, having sex, and enjoying themselves and they were all perfectly happy to do so.

But I freaked out. No conflict! NO CONFLICT! How can I write an entire novel without a conflict?! I lost sleep, I forced my husband to help me, and I was miserable.

Finally, I just sat down and started writing, putting my fingers in control. Within an hour, not only did I have a conflict, but I discovered some wonderful things about my characters I never suspected. Nearly 30,000 words later, I'm still going along happily, plenty of conflit to go around.

This happens to me every time I have writer's block. If I force it, nothing happens. If I just relax, put fingers to keyboard, and write without thinking, I can churn out thousands of words at a time. Words for stories I never suspected in a million years.

The only thing I san say about this is I really hope you moved teh conflict to a point much earlier in the novel. Not many readers, or editors, are going to wait that long for conflict. Not many will read past chapter one without a good idea of what the conflict is.

[Roger J Carlson]

The only thing I san say about this is I really hope you moved teh conflict to a point much earlier in the novel. Not many readers, or editors, are going to wait that long for conflict. Not many will read past chapter one without a good idea of what the conflict is.In his book, "Writing the Breakout Novel", Donald Maase says that if you can't get to the main conflict in the first chapter, you need to create a "bridging conflict", that is some conflict that keeps the story going until you can get to the main conflict.

[Jamesaritchie]

In his book, "Writing the Breakout Novel", Donald Maase says that if you can't get to the main conflict in the first chapter, you need to create a "bridging conflict", that is some conflict that keeps the story going until you can get to the main conflict.

I think Maase is a very good agent, but much of the advice in his book is in direct contradition to many of the top novels on the bestseller list at any given time. I think all his book really says is what he looks for, and even some of the novels he's sold don't go along with his book.

The conflict needs to keep expanding, getting worse, more complicated, but I haven't seen too many novels that worked unless the main conflict at least begins very early in the novel.

Either way, there's must be some sort of serious conflict very early in the novel, or no one will read long at all.

I've found that the problem is most often that the novel chould have been opened with chapter two, or three, or four, rather than where it is. Then everything of real importace in the first chapters should be woven in as needed.

Many new writers would stand a much better chance of selling their novel if they would follow the old advice of throwing away the first chapter or two, and starting later in the story. No agent or editors reads past the point of boredom, and few things are more boring than lack of conflict.

[James D. Macdonald]

Every page should have a reason for the reader to turn the page.

[pepperlandgirl]

The only thing I san say about this is I really hope you moved teh conflict to a point much earlier in the novel. Not many readers, or editors, are going to wait that long for conflict. Not many will read past chapter one without a good idea of what the conflict is.

Oh, things will get moved around in the revision process. Added, subtracted, changed, replaced. My point is, I couldn't sit down and plot, "Ok, such and such is going to happen to Character B, and that will affect Character A in this way, while Character C does this." I had to wait until they were ready to tell me.

[Mike Martyn]

I think Maase is a very good agent....

That's good to hear since I'm going to a series of workshops this Oct. and he's giving one of them. The Surrey International Writer's confernce Is held in Surrey B.C. Oct 21st to the 23rd. Terry Shannon, k.c.dyer, Ms. Gabaldon (who's first name escapes me), Jack White (the King Aurtue novels and Jean Auel (Sp? anyway the woman who wrote Clan of the Cave bear and sequels) plus a five or so more and various editors and agents.

I'm really looking forward to it. It's a good deal for $450 and includes meals etc.

I've just finished the rough draft of my first novel and I hope to get the rambling piece of crap whipped into shape by then. Since everyone's staying at the same hotel, I can promaote myself shamelessly.

Does anyone have experience with workshops. Did they help? How do you get the most out of them?

[WriteRead]

I didn't read the whole thread, so bear w me if I echo some opinions.

For an F bk I write now, 10k+ WC in it, already, I HAD to write an outline.

The reason for this was that I wrote it as part of a course in writing w Writer's Digest (which, BTW, I finished two mths ago http://absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif ). Actually, this was the reason I took the course. I felt that I don't know how to write. I felt I needed a guiding hand.

As one of six lessons I had, I had to outline the events of the bk, so there I was, w an outline, w/o me even thinking if I want it or not.

The truth of the matter is that when I first started it (and stopped, and then restarted it now), about 14 yrs ago, I outlined it as a chain of events. It just looked natural to me to outline it.

Maybe the reason for it is that it's mostly a chronological opus. It looks to me that it cannot be written any other way, but "first, I did this, and then, this happened, and so on..." The case may well be that other bks, if and when, won't need it, though, truth be said, I'm not sure about it.

In the end, I am grateful for it, and this is an understatement. W/o it (both the first outline and the second), I don't think I'd've been able to lift myself above the initial birth pangs of starting it. The outline gave me the course into which I had channeled myself into a coherent mass of narrations, descriptions and dialogues.

Dan

[Button]

:) I am happy to see so many responses.

I wrote my first novel with no outline, but found myself looking forward in my mind, enough to write a sequel and have enough left over for a third book still sort of in my head but not really... outlined. :)

I can't help not writing without an outline. The only way I write is I see the characters in my head and I let them run amock. I might bring in spurts of things that I want but they are in control and if something doesn't work, I take it out and let them take control again.

I'm just glad there are other people who don't plot or write an outline as well. I can't write the ending without writing the whole thing.

:)

[Jamesaritchie]

[QUOTE=Mike Martyn]That's good to hear since I'm going to a series of workshops this Oct. and he's giving one of them. QUOTE]

I'd like to be at that myself. My only problem with Maase is the same problem I have with anyone who writes a how-to book or article about writing, including myself. I haven't written a how-to book about writing, though I did pass up the chance to do so, but I have had a number of how-to articles published.

The books I like best, Bradbury's "Zen in the Art of Writing," King's "On Writing," McManus' "The Deer on a Bicycle," Caldwell's "Call it Exprience," are much more why to write, and what makes a writer, than how to write. I like this.

I agree with King that when we, as writers, try to tell people how we do what we do, the best we can really tell them is how we think we did what we did after we did it, and we're usually wrong.

I believe the same thing applies to Maase's book about what makes a bestseller and how to write one. All he can really tell us is what he looks for in a bestseller, and even he violates his own rules as often as not.

I once had a professor who said it's pretty easy, and even helpful, to tell someone how not to write, but usually disasterous when we start telling people how to write. It seems to me he had an excellent point.

But we all do it because we have no better system. How-to works only a small part of the time, and then only for a few, but we make the effort because we don;t know what else to try.

[Roger J Carlson]

I've been to a lot of workshops and read a lot of books. I can't say that any one of them influenced me more than others, but everything goes into my brain, gets blended with everything else and comes out my fingers. So I guess you could say they all helped.

One very good thing about workshops is the opportunity to network with other writers and industry professionals. You never know when a chance meeting will develop into something. You'll never do that sitting at home.

[HConn]

Last week I saw Uncle Jim hold up an "outline"--really just a collection of notes on the back of a placemat from a Chinese restaurant. Others have used file cards, or napkins from Bob's Big Boy.

It doesn't matter how, just how it comes out.

For myself, I also sit down with very little idea how things will turn out. I hit on a conflict and crash characters into each other. I don't know what the climax is going to be, but I know I'll get there eventually. I just get to know the characters and setting and let the conflicts play out.

But I do all that while I write the outline.

Everyone writes a first draft. But some people write them in outline form.

All that matters is the manuscript that you mail off.

[Pencilone]

Everyone writes a first draft. But some people write them in outline form.



This is so true! And next time it will save me a lot of rewriting.

[triceretops]

I just wrote a 1 1/2 page synop to give me a general framework and let it rip. What I regret is not making notes of times, dates, and a chronological reference with so many subplots. It had more twists and turns than a sidewinder in a bowl of noodles. I forgot most of my futuristic terminology that I had to repeat 100 or 200 pages later. I'll make notes now for the 2nd draft

Tri

[mistri]

Is it just me who actually *likes* outlining? Working out a story, the characters, doing the research and tossing around ideas and so on until I have a solid grasp on what I'm doing is one of the parts of the writing process I most enjoy.


I like outlining too. It's a way of seeing the story develop, without having to write it all out properly first :)

Plus, my actual first draft writing would be a lot slower if I didn't outline first.

I'm very lazy when it comes to research, however. My next WIP (if I ever finish revising the current one), is going to take a lot of work (for me) in the research arena, and it's going to be a Nanowrimo-novel, so the research will probably have to be done in advance, as opposed to on the fly.

[jen.nifer]

Ok, thought I'd revive this.

Had my outline all worked out, and I knew everything that was going to go in each chapter, and started writing accordingly.

But, I have found that I am starting to rationalise the story or something?

I don't know what my head is doing exactly, but something within is not agreeing with my outline.

I think I might go crazy and (gasp) ignore the blasted outline...

[emeraldcite]

but something within is not agreeing with my outline.

I think I might go crazy and (gasp) ignore the blasted outline...

I've completed one novel without an outline and I'm currently writing one with an outline. Which method is better? I don't know. The methods work for what I'm working on.

I have a pretty detailed outline for my current WIP, but I see it as organic. It changes everyday. Sometimes, something will happen in a scene that will have serious repercussions. One nice thing about the outline is that it is a planning tool not set in stone.

It also makes it easier for me to go back and find an area that I need to adjust when something changes. I've found that the outline does not hamper my creativity, but forces me to think more about story and how it works.

I've also found that that writing without the outline required more editing and drafts in the end. My current WIP is cleaner and more structured. Is this bad? I don't think so. It's what works for you that matters. Let the outline change with the text. Let it be organic. All things need to grow and novels are no less alive than anything else that lives and changes.

...speaking words of wisdom, let it be...

Sorry. It got stuck in my head. Wonder if anything I just wrote made sense...maybe if I had an outline...

[jen.nifer]

Let the outline change with the text. Let it be organic. All things need to grow and novels are no less alive than anything else that lives and changes.


Phoar! A very good way to look at it.

Ok, must get back to my live culture then...

[mkcbunny]

I only started an outline when I thought that I needed to keep track of certain things. Not so much to say "this is what I have to do," but to say "this is where I have been" to keep trak of what I was doing where. I have past and present scenes alternating, and timeline issues to consider, so somewhere around the 200-page mark I went through it and made myself an outline of what I had. At 300 pages, I just did it again; I had cut-and-pasted chapters into new places and was feeling a little confused about what I had done. The outline is more of a record for me than a map, although I do use it to see in skeletal terms what is missing.

[sunandshadow]

I don't know what my head is doing exactly, but something within is not agreeing with my outline.

I've been experiencing this - it's the main reason I didn't start writing my novel months ago, and instead am trying to goad myself into starting it for NaNoWriMo. I worte an outline, there was nothing techincally wrong with it, but it just didn't 'ring true', felt like I was forgetting something, getting distracted from the real point.

So what did I do? Bonked my head against the wall for a while trying to brainstorm and revise the outline until it felt right. What actually helped? Watching Naruto. I kid you not, I was watching this stupid ninja anime trying to figure out why the heck it was so popular when it was also so cliche, and what happened was, since I was too bored by the tropes to pay much attention to them, and I was annoyed by the theme, I ended up analyzing the plot structure of the episodes and how they worked to present the theme that was annoying me so much.

Then I went back to my outline and reworked each chapter as if it were an episode, complete with it's own little initial incident, theme, and climax. That helped me identify and get rid of some of the parts of my outline that just didn't seem like they would be fun to write. So that gave me a strong beginning for my outline, but the overall structure was still pretty messed up.

I'm working on the overall structure now by trying to separate it into the various plot strands, make a logline and outline for each, then weave them together, rather than my original approach of trying to outline the whole complex structure in chronological order.

The real underlying problem is that I don't have a strong inspiration for the climax. I think if I ever come up with one it will work to pull my understanding of the novel's whole structure into alignment. *crosses fingers and wishes for the muse to visit*

[rbflynn]

I find that if I outline at the outset, I end up restricting myself, as I tend to focus solely on bringing the outline from point a to point b and so on when I begin writing. With my last piece, I tried an outline as part of the editing process. I broke down the latest draft and worked it in reverse. Not only did I find a couple of things that drifted off into the ether of my greying mind, I also found a couple of sparks that, when fanned to flame in subsequent drafts, contributed greatly to the story.

[Roger J Carlson]

Ok, thought I'd revive this.

Had my outline all worked out, and I knew everything that was going to go in each chapter, and started writing accordingly.

But, I have found that I am starting to rationalise the story or something?

I don't know what my head is doing exactly, but something within is not agreeing with my outline.

I think I might go crazy and (gasp) ignore the blasted outline...This is why I only outline a few chapters ahead. My stories keep changing on their own. Personally, I'd go with your gut and not stick to the outline if your story seems to be going somewhere else.

[Honey Nut Loop]

my way seems to have come about through the course of writing. I sit down and thump out drafts for between one and ten chapters. Whatever comes. Then the story seemes to grind to a halt.But whilst i've been thumping out the story the characters have been taking to me and telling me things they need to do later in teh story. I thn have to loosely work out a scene order fo rhow everything is going to fit together. This is variable. Look at the WIP i just finished. The ending took a drastic twist away from the outline.

[maestrowork]

I write organically, but I do have a sketchy outline (at least a few chapters ahead) to set direction. Lately, my outline looks very much much this:

- Char A must get <there>
- Char B must get <there>
- Char A must then get <there>
- Char B must now get <there>

LOL.

[ANNIE]

I think it would be interesting to find out if the majority of people who outline are right handed vs the the people who don't, left handers?

Left handed people think predominately with the right side of their brain, the side that rules emotion and artistic or creative processes.

right handed people are mostly left brained which is the logic, analytical side.

that's not to side we don't use both sides but it would be interesting.
I do not outline and am left handed.
It would seem to make sense that those who prefer to outline would be more analytical than those who don't.

[cwfgal]

I outline, but it's more of a running synopsis, thinking through the work before I start to write it in general terms. Once I do that, I start to write and I rarely consult the outline again. Usually when I do, it's because I've hit a wall of some sort. Reading the outline will generally start me up again. My finished product always varies quite a bit from the outline because in the process of doing the actual writing, new ideas come to me.

I am a fairly analytical person and I'm also right handed. But I wrote my first published novel without an outline. I only started outlining when doing so enabled me to get an advance/contract without first writing the whole book. But once I started doing it, I found I preferred it.

Beth

[scarletpeaches]

I'm right-handed and like to plan down to the last detail, but find that this sort of writing can end up rather soulless...that's when the characters don't run away with themselves and end up taking over...so I reckon ANNIE could be right! The one piece I wrote with no planning at all, just an initial idea, not even an ending, flowed out in a month and I was surprised to see, once finished, how good it was. Not publishable by a long shot, but better than some first drafts of my planned/outlined stories. I didn't even know the ending, or how I would get there, when I started, but got there in the end.

[maestrowork]

Both (I've been software engineer, IT consultant, business analyst, project manager, etc.... but also actor, singer, designer, writer... I am schizo!) but I'm right-handed. In writing, I really do not like outlining too much. I find it restrictive and my outlines always change anyway. I do like to set directions and milestones (or set pieces) -- marks that I want to hit on the way. But I don't like to plan everything out. I am also not very organized (despite the fact that I used to manage huge projects!) when it comes to writing. I have no notes. No folders. No tapes. I tried to use a spreadsheet but then I abandoned that because I work better when I'm "free." It's all in my head now. And I kind of like that.

I wonder if I would wake up one day and find that I've become left-handed...

[scarletpeaches]

It's possible, maestrowork. I woke up one day, not liking the taste of sugar in my tea any more. So stranger things have happened...

[Bufty]

....I'm right-handed. In writing, I really do not like outlining too much. I find it restrictive and my outlines always change anyway. I do like to set directions and milestones (or set pieces) -- marks that I want to hit on the way. But I don't like to plan everything out. I am also not very organized (despite the fact that I used to manage huge projects!) when it comes to writing. I have no notes. No folders. No tapes. I tried to use a spreadsheet but then I abandoned that because I work better when I'm "free." It's all in my head now. And I kind of like that.

I wonder if I would wake up one day and find that I've become left-handed...

Ditto. Except I managed other peoples affairs and finances - and much better than my own.:)

[brinkett]

I think it would be interesting to find out if the majority of people who outline are right handed vs the the people who don't, left handers?

I'm right handed and I do very little advance planning. For my WIP, I have a half-page timeline and that's it.


I have no notes. No folders. No tapes. I tried to use a spreadsheet but then I abandoned that because I work better when I'm "free." It's all in my head now.

Same here, except for the spreadsheet part.

[inanna]

I'm right-handed, but if I were to guess, I would say I was right-brained. I don't care for outlining at all--I carry my story around in my head scene-by-scene, and although I attempted an outline earlier in the process, I gave it up after a few chapters. It felt more like a chore, kind of an exercise in anti-inspiration. I more or less know where the story is going, and the rest I fill in as I go along.

What's been working for me is this disorganized mess of a notebook I keep, filled with scene sketches or snippets of dialogue, whatever strikes me at the moment that I feel I must write down in case I forget. I'm actually close to filling up my second one. It's not in any chronological order whatsoever, which makes it a pain to have to flip, flip, flip, to find what I'm looking for, but I like it just fine. It's possibly the opposite of an outline though :).

[HConn]

Think of your outline as a first draft. That's really all they are.

Keep them character-oriented and change them when you need to, just as you would with any other draft.

[sunandshadow]

I've heard that eye dominance is a better indicator of brainedness than hand dominance.

[Danger Jane]

I don't outline, exactly, but I think about the story and characters for MONTHS before a single word goes down on paper. Then I do random scenes, to get to know them. And then I start.

[Project nachonaco]

I despise writing outlines.

In school, I always skip the prewriting and go straight to the actual story.

I always have felt that if I knew what was going to happen in my story, it would get quite boring. If I know what's happening, I put less effort into it and it loses it's magic.

[goldenquince]

I write down major events, tropes, underlying themes, objects, character flaws/strengths, etc. that need to be there for me to get from the beginning to the end, but when I'm developing my characters or writing for suspense, I find it's best for me to fly by the seat of my pants.

[Gynn]

I wrote an outline for the novel I'm working on, but I haven't really stuck to it. Like you said, the characters weren't having it.

[dwellerofthedeep]

I outline who my characters are, then I write an opening scene, then I outline the rest as I go. It keeps me interested except in rare cases where I get too far ahead of myself, in which case I need to change something.

[MumblingSage]

I have a plot, but I don't write it down. I don't have the time or the patience. I tried just writing summaries of my scenes on notecards, and I couldn't do it. Instead, I'm writing scenes as they come to me and then sorting them in a rough order. With luck I won't forget what comes between each scene.

[Shweta]

I just put them in the tight spots and let them go on from there. Are there others that simply can not write with an outline?

If you can do that without an outline maybe you don't need one :)

I can't.

[darrtwish]

I've tried outlining before, but the story either dies on me or I end up no where near what I originally planned. Even if I do outline, I don't even look at it once I start writing.

[ynoirb]

I can't write an outline - but I guess I write one in my head so it evens out. I get a character idea and then walking to and from work I try to come up with reasons for that characters existence.

It seems to work for me so far :)

[willietheshakes]

Holy thread resurrection, Batman!

[Shweta]

Holy thread resurrection, Batman!

Iz zombie thread.

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/128285394416562500brrraaaiiinnnss.jpg

Zombie threads are cute an' fuzzy an' I have no brains left this weekend so I'm safe. So all is good :)

[coneflower2001]

I outline, but only roughly...like a road map. That doesn't mean my characters don't have the final say as I'm writing...I always find surprises even I didn't expect. I find that if I don't outline a bit, which sometimes is just brainstorming major points in the story, that I get lost and way off track. When that happens the story almost comes to a complete halt or even dies...thus making me back track and waste even more time trying to rekindle it than if I already have an outline to look to. In each chapter or scene...I ask one question...What needs to happen? If my mind is blank...my outline keeps the story moving. The plot grows from there...changing as it needs...often I even get emotional when I must kill off a character. I know its coming, but when it is time to write it...I am as emotional as if I never saw it coming...that's the wonders of writing.

[Charlie Horse]

In a way I understand what Uncle Jim's saying. Could it be that when it comes to outlining we're merely arguing over symantics? What some (including me) would call a first draft, others may call an outline. At some point the creative process needs to take over and flow onto your pages. Whether that's in the form of an official outline with Roman numerals and bullet points, yada yada, or in the form of a free flowing 100k word diatribe, which you then mold and form into a readable work is your option.

[Metaphor]

Well I'm currently sitting astride the fence on this issue, and although I'm leaning towards the "outlining" side, I'm not about to overbalance.

With my first book, my uncompleted trunk novel, I had no outline at all. Not a sausage. I didn't even know where i was going. It was fantasy, and all I knew was that my heroine would find her magical powers and travel south. I world-built as a went along, leading to many inconsistencies. That novel was a mess. A total and utter mess. A higgledy-piggledy pile of mismatched, random scenes with no connection, no direction, and no plot. Every time I sat down to write, I spent at least half of the time I had set aside for writing thinking what could possibly come next. I got no writing done. This could be simply because it was my trunk novel, and I was learning how to write, but I definitely don't think winging it helped make my first novel easier.

My second time around, I didn't want to start writing until my ideas and characters were thoroughly mixed around in my head - I wanted to be prepared. Because I was itching to get writing, I whiled away the time planning odd scenes which I thought would be interesting. Then I thought, hell, why not put them together? If I sort out the first ten chapters, then it will be much easier when I start! Nothing complicated, just a few sentances about each. here's an example:

This scene shows how bored Shayne is getting with his girlfriend Melanie. The scene will develop his friends more and show even more of his social status. He looks at Ophelia whilst he’s with Melanie and realises he would much rather be with Ophelia. He chats to her a bit by the lockers, much to her surprise.

This is really basic, and it gives me freedom to do whatever I want with out the awkward "what the hell is coming next!" sort of gaps.

I do understand that everyone is different, and TBH, just go ahead with whatever works for you. There are lots of ways of getting to say, London, but all of them get there eventually. Does it really matter what the process is when you will all end up with the same product?

[miles]

Holy thread resurrection, Batman!

Finally, a newbie smart enough to use the "search" function and respond to the already-posted thread instead of starting yet another outline thread.

Good job goldenquince!:hooray:

[stormie]

I don't outline. The story forms in my head, I start to picture the characters, then I write. About half-way through, I start jotting down notes to myself, about places or characters, just so that I remember those little things that can mean so much. Like a road that inadvertantly goes through a lake, or a boy with light skin and freckles ends up with medium brown skin.

I've been asked for outlines, and when I say I do better synopses, it's okay'd. Synopses are better with fiction, and outlines are better for non-fiction. But that's my two cents.

[lucky8]

I tend to outline as I go along. I start with a scrap and make notes about where it could go, then I forget all about the notes and go where it feels natural. Having said that, I sometimes look fondly upon outlines and wish I could write them before I start on the MS, can't help thinking that it would be much easier that way.

[josephwise]

I don't use an outline to guide the draft, but I do use the draft to guide an outline.