Can we share the love a bit?

[Izz]

Do you think maybe we can share the love in poetry crit a little bit?

I'll explain why i say this:

I've noticed recently that the front page of the critting section is often dominated by 1 or 2 AWers. Sometimes as many as half the poems on the front page have been written by two people. That's 10 or more out of 20.

Also, it seems that people who might be posting for the first time or don't post that regularly are getting left out of the critting circle, often slipping off the front page with only one or two comments, whereas the people flooding the forum with their work are getting plenty and staying on the front page as a result.

And tell me, honestly, how many of us go back past the first page when we take a look at the poetry on offer? I know i have to make a conscious effort to do so.

Yes, it's lovely to share our work with everybody, but is it possible to share a bit more space with them, too? Do we have to post everything we've written at once? Sometimes we might be in a poetic mood and write three or four poems in a day, perhaps more (especially with the PAD challenge in April). But do we need to post them all at the same time? Can we hold some of them back a little bit, make sure they have even more polish before we post them? That'll give us time to crit other people's work and share the love. It'll also make us less likely to just post in the threads of people we like or whose poetry we like. Got a community here, we do, and we need to make sure it keeps living and the new or irregular poets don't get discouraged and go elsewhere.

[moblues]

I was thinking about this too, Iz. I'm one of the main culprits. I'll back off for a month or so.

I don't post them all at the same time. I write live to the site and later copy and paste them to Word.

I also search for orphans to bring them back to the front page with good, well thought-out crits.

Sorry.




Mike

[poetinahat]

Hmmm. This issue comes up every so often. I'm sure we can work things out!

I understand Iz' concern, and, knowing Iz a little, I am certain his comment was meant in good spirit. Front-page airtime is precious, and we are a sharing community; as such, a little consideration and discretion is always a good thing.

But I am heartily against making people feel unwelcome for being "too active" - I mean, that's why we're here. There must be a way to find a balance.

Furthermore, I'm heartily against instituting more rules if we don't have to.

Self-moderation is a good thing, but there are other solutions here, such as:
- a separate board for shorter poems
- Putting all one's short poems in a single thread, e.g. "Moblues' Short Poems" - then the one thread pops to the top when you post something new

Finally, I'd like to thank both Iz and Mike for addressing a longtime concern with such good spirit. Even when I'm not here, you all make me glad I'm here.

What do y'all think?

[moblues]

I think I'm going to make the thread you suggested, Rob. Where would you like it nested? :)




Mike

[Izz]

I understand Iz' concern, and, knowing Iz a little, I am certain his comment was meant in good spirit. Front-page airtime is precious, and we are a sharing community; as such, a little consideration and discretion is always a good thing.
I'm glad you see this in the spirit it was intended, Rob. :)

And i'm definitely not trying to be discouraging or asking for more rules to be instituted. Was just hoping that people might be able to come to a balance on their own. Usually when something like this happens, and someone addresses it (politely, as i hope my post was), then it tends to even out.

And Mike, i certainly didn't mean to imply that people should stop posting altogether for a while. But if we spread our posting out a little bit it means everybody gets a chance to play for a bit longer, is all, and the newbies who work up the courage to post (because sharing poetry can be a little daunting at times, can't it) won't feel left out.

And finally, more variety of poems and poets on the front page means there's more chance for us to learn from critting or reading different styles. I know that's how i learn most, anyway, but that might not apply to everybody.

[Feiss]

I agree. I haven't been posting lately because of various crazy ass roof falling apart shit (literally, in addition to quitting the job and maybe leaving the country, the corner shingles of my house are sequentially falling three stories to the ground), but back in my heyday of stability, I would post three or four poems in one day sometimes, and I always felt guilty about it.

Then again, I thought, why limit myself, so on those prolific days, I'd crit prolifically too.

[Izz]

Then again, I thought, why limit myself, so on those prolific days, I'd crit prolifically too.And you'd always crit prolifically all the poems on the front page, I'd notice, not just ones by people you knew.

[Priene]

- Putting all one's short poems in a single thread, e.g. "Moblues' Short Poems" - then the one thread pops to the top when you post something new


A bad idea. The threads established by long-standing, prolific poets will take up residency on Page 1 and never leave, making posts by new members fly off even faster. Batching might work though, ie Moblues' April Poems.

[Ambrosia]

So should I feel guilty because yesterday I had a creative burst and wrote three poems over coffee and posted them? Or am I exempt from this concern because I am 'new'. When do I need to start feeling guilty if not now?

I personally believe it is wrong to limit a poet, period. If you are finding poems have fallen off the front page then go a page or two deeper and bring them back to the top. That is what I do. I hate to see anyone with no comment on their poem. It bothers me, whether that person is a new person or a person who has been here forever. I go looking for those orphans and post a comment if I can. I don't have the knowledge of poem styles that many of you have here and I know my comments are less than useful at times, but I make the effort nonetheless. If everyone here was making that effort, I believe the poems would get equal time.

Frankly, I think grouping poems together in one thread is a horrible idea. Imagine trying to go through a page of poems to offer crits on every one. It would be daunting and I don't imagine many people would do it. I have times when I can sit here and read a number of poems and times when I can only fit one or two poems in. I don't want to be forced to read a page of multiple poems at one time, just because they are 'short'. Mike's minimalist poetry may be short, but the ideas he packs into those few words is anything but small. It sometimes takes me reading his poems over several times before I feel I can comment on them due to the depth of his poetry. Why should one poet be penalized because he writes short poems? I don't understand.

The way to make new poets feel welcome and a part of the poetry forum is comment on their work and give them encouragement. And allow the flow of poetry to continue because I have learned so much from reading the work of other poets here and the crits they have received. I have learned a great deal from Mike and shudder to think of the person who comes onto the board in a few days and doesn't see his work, doesn't have the opportunity to learn from his style and expertise. That's just wrong.

[Ken]

... a SYWer had a good philosophy she shared.
For every piece she posted she critiqued four pieces by others.

[Izz]

So should I feel guilty because yesterday I had a creative burst and wrote three poems over coffee and posted them? Or am I exempt from this concern because I am 'new'. When do I need to start feeling guilty if not now? Where did i say you should feel guilty?

If you are finding poems have fallen off the front page then go a page or two deeper and bring them back to the top. Yes, but people generally don't. Perhaps that was why I made specific mention of that and acknowledged that it's an effort to do so?

That is what I do. I hate to see anyone with no comment on their poem.Do you? I'm glad to hear it. But I'm not just talking about poems with no comments here, as i define a little further below.

If everyone here was making that effort, I believe the poems would get equal time.That was exactly my point, Ambrosia.

Why should one poet be penalized because he writes short poems? I don't understand.Who here was mentioning penalties? And who here was being singled out? I don't recall mentioning names, and it was never my intention to do so. And perhaps Rob's mention of Mike was in regards to the fact that he was the next commenter on the thread, rather than any singling out?

The way to make new poets feel welcome and a part of the poetry forum is comment on their work and give them encouragement. Exactly my point, Ambrosia. But a lot of the new or irregular poets are only getting one or two comments on their poetry before their poems disappear from the front page and never surface again.

I have learned a great deal from Mike and shudder to think of the person who comes onto the board in a few days and doesn't see his work, doesn't have the opportunity to learn from his style and expertise. That's just wrong. Please tell me where i said people shouldn't post. There's a huge difference between asking that people possibly think about limiting the amount of poems they post at once and saying that people shouldn't post at all.

Shall i quote what exactly i said:

Yes, it's lovely to share our work with everybody, but is it possible to share a bit more space with them, too? Do we have to post everything we've written at once? Sometimes we might be in a poetic mood and write three or four poems in a day, perhaps more (especially with the PAD challenge in April). But do we need to post them all at the same time? Can we hold some of them back a little bit, make sure they have even more polish before we post them? That'll give us time to crit other people's work and share the love.Notice how i never say that people should stop posting. I just ask that people consider not posting all of their poems at once.

If we write a whole lot of poems at once, what's wrong with posting one and keeping the others back for a day or so to further polish them? Not only are we giving our work the extra respect it deserves, we're also making sure that what we post for crit is going to genuinely be at a stage where it would benefit just as much from other peoples' eyes as our own, which in turns shows respect to our critters. In turn, we can apply what we learn from the crits we receive on the first of that batch to the others before we post them.

In fact, Ambrosia, I find it offensive that you would imply some of these motivations on my part (and in case you say you weren't, i don't feel it's wrong for me to take offense when i was the initial poster and therefore can reasonably assume that any comments not attributed as being directed to someone else are being directed to me). I'm all about the community and while my post count may not be what it used to be (for reasons that are my own, and nobody else's, and have nothing to do with this site or its members) I have had a huge involvement during my time here and hope to continue having a huge involvement.

There's no need for you to get on your high horse and ride to battle about this. If you've taken offense i apologize, but i do make the comments with the view of the community at large, and not just a few individuals, and definitely not myself. I don't make comments like this lightly either. I only make them based on observation over time.

And yes, i do realize that when comments like this are made some people do choose to get upset, whether it's visibly or behind the scenes, and i hesitated to make my comments for that reason. But i have now, and while i apologize if i've caused offense i do feel my comments are valid and needed to be made.

To reiterate: I'm not asking for anybody to stop posting. I'm only suggesting that we make an effort to share the love as much as possible, and not just with the people whose poems we usually comment on. If people still want to post a whole lot of poems at once it's not my place to stop them, and i certainly wasn't asking for rules to be created and enforced. I was just sharing some suggestions with the best interests of everybody in mind

[caseyquinn]

I like the spirit of this post, i try to keep my new poem posting to every other day or so but on the same note i try to crit 4 or 5 poems each day. I think Ken has the best idea. If you post a poem, crit 4 others and try to crit poets you have never read before first and go from there.

Isaac, the reason, in my experience, the newer poets only get 2 posts is that in 99% of the cases they post their poem without criting anyone elses - as a general rule and common curteousy usually you crit first, then post for critiqueing. This board keeps gaining new poets constantly and many who get hooked and stay on as regulars so i dont think anything is broken here in need of repair however i agree it is good to get out a reminder now again about the common courtesy rules of critique...

Critique 4 (starting from people you don't know to people you do know), post 1 ... repeat - if you want to post 3 in one day, have at it. Just crit 10 - 12 other people as well :)

[Izz]

Isaac, the reason, in my experience, the newer poets only get 2 posts is that in 99% of the cases they post their poem without criting anyone elses - as a general rule and common curteousy usually you crit first, then post for critiqueing. For sure, casey, but what's wrong with thinking the best of new poets and making them feel welcome, even if they haven't critted anybody else? We can even mention nicely to them that we wouldn't mind a comment on a poem of ours, or something along those lines.

But the main thrust of my post was about sharing the love, not just in critting, but in general poem posting as well. And i'll stand by the comments I've made as being neither unfair nor unreasonable :)

[caseyquinn]

Well, the big thing I think is that we all come here not really to teach but to learn ourselves. People who come to just take and take without ever really giving tend to get a cold shoulder for the same reason most people walk by a bum on the street asking for a handout. Now don't get me wrong, I try to post a crit on all new poets I see and those with 0 post counts first and go from there - I think more people should which is why i agree with the intent of your post for sure.

I think sharing the love is a good idea, to me that does not equate to limiting new posts but rather ensuring each post gets the attention it deserves. Deserves being the key word -

[Ambrosia]

There is far more I could address from your comments to me. However, let's just take this small snippet.

There's no need for you to get on your high horse and ride to battle about this. If you've taken offense i apologize, but i do make the comments with the view of the community at large, and not just a few individuals, and definitely not myself. I don't make comments like this lightly either. I only make them based on observation over time.
I have yet to 'get on my high horse and ride to battle' and frankly it is not something you want to see me do, either.

I am insulted by your response to me. Who are you to speak this way to me? When I responded to this thread I responded to the thread in its entirety. That means to the group as a whole. I did not address my post to you. If I had intended my comments to be addressed to you I would have put your name at the top of the post. I was responding to all of the posts and all of the suggestions and comments within this thread. I do not know why you chose to take my comments personally, but I feel attacked. And it is not appreciated. Excuse me for having an opinion and voicing it.

You may have been here longer, you may have watched the thread and events here longer, but do not assume that you are the only person here who has the interests of this forum and the participants at heart. Just because I am new to the forum does not mean I do not feel strongly about it and want it to thrive. I frequent very few forums at AW. I have a couple I call 'home'. This is one of those I call home.

Frankly, I don't understand why my post put a burr under your saddle the way it did. Coming after me, however, is the wrong move.

You and I agree in areas, such as people giving crits and seeking out posts that haven't been commented on and making sure those poems get comments. I do not see any reason to be adversarial with me.

I do have personal reasons, btw, for posting what I write when I write it in the crit forum. It is not something I feel at liberty to discuss here, nor is it something you need to know.

You asked where you said I should feel guilty. The title of your thread, asking if we could share the love a little, and the focus of your thread of not posting multiple poems in one day can only lead me to assume that if I post more than one poem a day I have violated some unspoken rule and I am being selfish and stealing from other members in the crit forum. And that leads me to being guilty for being selfish and stealing from others who have more right to be on the front page than I do. Which just may be everyone.

Gah. I'm done.

[dobiwon]

I have also had some of the same concerns that Iz has expressed, but I also share Ambrosia's and Rob's idea that we shouldn't limit the number of poems posted at any one time by anyone. I also don't like the idea of putting several short poems in the same post--each poem deserves it's own attention and critique.

One thing I try to do whenever I get the chance to critique, is to go back in pages to the last post I had replied to, and work forward from there. It's not foolproof but it reminds me to look at more than the first page.

Another thing I've thought about is that the number of replies to postings by 'established' members is frequently much higher than those for newer poets. I'm afraid that some of the newer people see that their poems only have 2 or 3 replies, while others have 15 or 20, and that can be discouraging to a new poet. I waffle back and forth about suggesting that people send a rep point to the poster when their only comment would be something like "I really like this".

I don't know what the solution is, except to echo others here to go back several pages and look at those poems that have had few if any replies. I think the comments made in this thread have been useful in that they have raised awareness, and I think that something like this needs to be said every so often.

[AnonymousWriter]

I think the idea of critiquing 4 before you post a poem is an okay one. But I have seen it done on another forum this way, and I don't particularly like the way it works. I have seen a lot of poets giving critiques such as "Good piece." just so they can post their own poem. I know some of us (me included) give these on occasion, simply because we have nothing else to add and we can see no improvements. Of course there is nothing wrong with that but I fear that most critiques will turn to really quick comments, without really reading the piece properly.

[skelly]

All I know is that I think I was the one to bring this issue up last time, and I got "cold shouldered" a bit for it ever after that. Thank you for your courage Isaac.

It's real easy. I crit two poems for every poem I post, and I wait for my poem to drop off of page one (a good indication that people are done reading and commenting on it) before I post another one.

I didn't make a big issue about it at the time, but the main reason I stopped posting poetry here for critique is because it was really beginning to bother me seeing large numbers of poems by the same poets taking up all of the first page.

Right or wrong, most people don't critique poems beyond the first page. Space there is valuable. At the risk of making myself unpopular, I really believe that people shouldn't be allowed to have more than one poem on the first page at a time.

Thanks for bring this back up Isaac.

eta: Ambrosia, you are going to have a difficult time here if you continue with that attitude. This is kind of a family thing and you are a very welcome but rather new member of the family. You have no rights here, only privileges.

[Lady Cat]

I’m pretty new to the whole art of critiquing - sometimes I find it hard to put into words just why a particular poem moved me. But hey, I’m trying. And I think I’m getting better at it. :D

I will say that I have noticed a few people seem to post more poetry than others, and to be honest, this is in part why I haven’t bothered to post any of my own. What’s the point in posting if it’s gone from the page in a couple of hours anyway?

As Isaac said:

honestly, how many of us go back past the first page when we take a look at the poetry on offer?

I don’t believe that limiting the number of poems a person can post is the answer. I think we, as a group, should start making an effort to check at least the first five pages of posts on a regular basis.

[Feiss]

Ambrosia - of course we want you to feel at home here. Isaac was addressing an issue that we all have to solve, and it has been a long-standing issue at the forum, it did not start when you began posting. So really, it's not about you.

Back to the issue. There have always been people who dominate the front page, I was one of them for a while, and honestly, whenever I had many pieces on the first page, I found the number of crits and viewers decreased for each of the poems. A critter is going to want to read one, maybe two of my poems, and then to be fair (or maybe they're just sick of my voice), they'll move on to someone else's.

I think posting one poem at a time is a way to give the poem time to be digested by the forum and get the crit it deserves.

However, sometimes I'd have a really creative day or a day with several problem and just really need to share the work with my online "family" immediately. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but on those days, I tried to crit others as much as possible.

This is really a reciprocity issue, you can't force anyone to "share the love", but I know Iz was trying to remind everyone that this is a forum, not a "show"

[KTC]

It'll be a cold day in hell before I share any of my poetry with you losers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!












Just kidding!


Kevin, poetically drained and resting somewhere near page 50.

[dobiwon]

It'll be a cold day in hell before I share any of my poetry with you losers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In that case, I take back all the good things I ever said about your poetry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!








Just kidding. :)

[Izz]

I am insulted by your response to me. Who are you to speak this way to me? When I responded to this thread I responded to the thread in its entirety. That means to the group as a whole. I did not address my post to you. If I had intended my comments to be addressed to you I would have put your name at the top of the post. I was responding to all of the posts and all of the suggestions and comments within this thread. I do not know why you chose to take my comments personally, but I feel attacked. And it is not appreciated. Excuse me for having an opinion and voicing it. As i went to pains to point out in my post, i took offense because i am the OP. Seeing as the comments weren't directed at anyone specifically i assumed they were directed at me. And they were thrown about in a fiery and aggrieved manner, whereas up until then all participants of the thread had been dealing with each other very politely. That is why i took offense, and i am still offended. In any case, the questions and statements in my post to you could easily be reworded from 'I' to 'anybody'. As in, 'when did anybody say you should feel guilty?' And please don't throw threats around such as Coming after me, however, is the wrong move. That's childish and paranoid. I wasn't coming after you; i was addressing your post and the reasons it offended me, as you have since to mine. I still don't see where in my OP i worded anything in an offensive manner, and i've already apologized in case it was offensive.

You may have been here longer, you may have watched the thread and events here longer, but do not assume that you are the only person here who has the interests of this forum and the participants at heart. Just because I am new to the forum does not mean I do not feel strongly about it and want it to thrive. I frequent very few forums at AW. I have a couple I call 'home'. This is one of those I call home.You seem to think that everything said in this thread (and not just by me, it would seem) is attacking you. It is not. One of the reasons I mentioned that i've been around a while and participated and was making these comments with the community in mind was to make sure that people (like yourself) understood i didn't create this thread to draw attention to myself or because i had personal grievances against anybody.

You asked where you said I should feel guilty. The title of your thread, asking if we could share the love a little, and the focus of your thread of not posting multiple poems in one day can only lead me to assume that if I post more than one poem a day I have violated some unspoken rule and I am being selfish and stealing from other members in the crit forum. And that leads me to being guilty for being selfish and stealing from others who have more right to be on the front page than I do. Which just may be everyone. You took that from my initial post? Tell me where i said that people should stop posting, or shouldn't post multiple poems. I asked questions for people to think about. I gave reasons for asking my initial question and then i asked more questions (and even gave some reasoning behind those questions). Nowhere did i say 'this is how it should be done'. In my personal opinion, my initial post and the one subsequent (after mike and rob responded) were in no way argumentative or attacking. And yes, my post in response to yours may have been a little strong, but i was a tad heated. I actually did take the time to explain why i was heated, though.

And again, to reiterate: I am not asking for rules to be instituted. Not in any way. I'm just asking people to think about some questions and how they might be able to incorporate them into their poetry crit activities. And nowhere did i say they had to be. If my addressing this issue offends people, well, i can't control that.

And, skelly, i remember when you brought this up last time, and i often wondered if that had anything to do with why you dropped off the map for a while. Fortunately (in a manner of speaking) i'm not writing all that much poetry at the moment, so i can handle any "cold shouldering" that comes my way. It's good to see you back, btw. And you too, dobiwon.

And, ktc, i'm hoping you get your poetry mojo back soon, because i miss seeing your poems in crit (though i do venture into the chapbook to read any you put up).

Lemme quote Fei, because she understands why i posted:
Back to the issue. There have always been people who dominate the front page, I was one of them for a while, and honestly, whenever I had many pieces on the first page, I found the number of crits and viewers decreased for each of the poems. A critter is going to want to read one, maybe two of my poems, and then to be fair (or maybe they're just sick of my voice), they'll move on to someone else's.

I think posting one poem at a time is a way to give the poem time to be digested by the forum and get the crit it deserves.

However, sometimes I'd have a really creative day or a day with several problem and just really need to share the work with my online "family" immediately. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but on those days, I tried to crit others as much as possible.

This is really a reciprocity issue, you can't force anyone to "share the love", but I know Iz was trying to remind everyone that this is a forum, not a "show"

[skelly]

And, skelly, i remember when you brought this up last time, and i often wondered if that had anything to do with why you dropped off the map for a while.

I think Nelson Mandela brought it up the time before that...and we all know how that turned out.

:D

[Magdalen]

Excellent OP, Isaac! (No way am I gonna comment on subsequent posts!!) Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this topic.

[Dichroic]

Here's when I feel guilty (and I am not even hinting about when anyone else should, just sharing my own reactions:

- when I don't crit a new visitor who's not getting much attention (but if lots of others are on it, I don't worry so much)
- when I don't speak up about something I really like - or that I think I *could* really like with a few tweaks (I like Don's suggestion about using a rep point instead of a comment if I'm only saying 'I like this' on something that's already getting lots of attention)
- when I post lots and don't comment (no, actually I don't feel guilty - I just don't let that happen.)
- if I don't give some feedback to someone who's been spending a lot of time helping others.

Here's when I don't feel guilty: when I ignore someone, new or old, who shows up, posts a lot, and doesn't spend any time helping others (though it's reasonable for a newbie to need a gentle hint); when I don't crit everything someone prolific writes (I figure if you post that much, you risk not having it all read - but people have a right to choose their own risks).

It's really none of my business what others do: if I were pure of heart and less interfering, no doubt I'd comment only when I thought I could help a poem. Clearly I'm not. On the other hand, I am welcoming enough occasionally to crit a new poet, even if I don't like the work, so they don't get ignored. Hopefully my vices and virtues balance out.

We have people who post a lot and crit a lot. We have people who rarely visit but occasionally post something and then crit a few others while they're here. Neither of those scenarios strikes me as a problem. Further, if people restrict themselves to posting less often, I suspect wha will happen is not an active board with more people posting, but a slower-moving forum in general. That may be fine for those who hang out all across AW and just check in here regularly, but for those of us who mostly frequent this forum (I don't *write* fiction) I think that would feel stagnant.

If someone posts five poems a day and I only crit one in ten, they've got no right getting offended - but last I heard, no one is. I don't average even one a day lately, but creativity comes in bursts for me and sometimes the next one can't wait. I don't like rules either, but I do like the suggestions that people be more conscious about looking on the second page, commenting on newbies and those who have no or few crits (poets, not poems) and making sure you crit more than you post.

[Ambrosia]

I have also had some of the same concerns that Iz has expressed, but I also share Ambrosia's and Rob's idea that we shouldn't limit the number of poems posted at any one time by anyone. I also don't like the idea of putting several short poems in the same post--each poem deserves it's own attention and critique.

One thing I try to do whenever I get the chance to critique, is to go back in pages to the last post I had replied to, and work forward from there. It's not foolproof but it reminds me to look at more than the first page.

Another thing I've thought about is that the number of replies to postings by 'established' members is frequently much higher than those for newer poets. I'm afraid that some of the newer people see that their poems only have 2 or 3 replies, while others have 15 or 20, and that can be discouraging to a new poet. I waffle back and forth about suggesting that people send a rep point to the poster when their only comment would be something like "I really like this".

I don't know what the solution is, except to echo others here to go back several pages and look at those poems that have had few if any replies. I think the comments made in this thread have been useful in that they have raised awareness, and I think that something like this needs to be said every so often.For a new person it is often the simple things that matter. I think sending a rep comment that you really like their work or posting that in the thread even if there is nothing else you can say about the poem helps that person feel more comfortable. I know it has helped me. Some would argue those types of comments are meaningless. But they are not. There is a person at the other end of the screen. Encouragement is never a bad thing.

There have been a few poems I could not crit and could not comment on. One time the poem was excellent but the subject matter was too intense for me, so I had to leave it to others. Other times, I haven't found something in the poem I felt I could comment on. If there is good imagery I can mention that, but if I do not understand the poem or find redeeming qualities I leave it to the next person to crit who will find something useful to say. It doesn't happen very often. But it has happened.

[Feiss]

For a new person it is often the simple things that matter. I think sending a rep comment that you really like their work or posting that in the thread even if there is nothing else you can say about the poem helps that person feel more comfortable. I know it has helped me. Some would argue those types of comments are meaningless. But they are not. There is a person at the other end of the screen. Encouragement is never a bad thing.

There have been a few poems I could not crit and could not comment on. One time the poem was excellent but the subject matter was too intense for me, so I had to leave it to others. Other times, I haven't found something in the poem I felt I could comment on. If there is good imagery I can mention that, but if I do not understand the poem or find redeeming qualities I leave it to the next person to crit who will find something useful to say. It doesn't happen very often. But it has happened.

Hmmm. In that intense poem, you probably could have just posted "the subject matter is too intense for me, but I think this poem is excellent", that would tell the author that their poem was impacting people, and that is wonderful feedback!

I agree the encouragement is never a bad thing, but encouragement without criticism of a poem that is seriously lacking is a HUGE problem. How does the poet improve if they get empty praise?

This is of course not directed at you, Ambrosia, I'm not saying that you shower writers with undeserved praise. I am just noting something that I've seen that has bothered me, and bringing it up for discussion.

[Ambrosia]

Isaac...

As i went to pains to point out in my post, i took offense because i am the OP. Seeing as the comments weren't directed at anyone specifically i assumed they were directed at me. And they were thrown about in a fiery and aggrieved manner, whereas up until then all participants of the thread had been dealing with each other very politely. That is why i took offense, and i am still offended. I stayed away from this thread yesterday to give myself time to cool down. I could not trust myself to see clearly after your attack. I have reread my initial post this morning to find where you could have possibly gotten the idea I was directing my comments at you or throwing those comments around in a fiery and aggrieved manner. The only part of my post that may have been interpreted as 'aggrieved' was the opening paragraph. I was relaying my feelings. I do not believe I did anythng wrong and I do not believe your subsequent response to me was called for. You need to own up to your feeling offended, Issac. It was not my initial post that caused it.In any case, the questions and statements in my post to you could easily be reworded from 'I' to 'anybody'. As in, 'when did anybody say you should feel guilty?' And please don't throw threats around such as That's childish and paranoid. I wasn't coming after you; i was addressing your post and the reasons it offended me, as you have since to mine. I still don't see where in my OP i worded anything in an offensive manner, and i've already apologized in case it was offensive.You apologized without sincerity. As you are doing now. You say offensive things to me and then tell me why you are right in doing so. Now you add to those previous insults by calling me childish and paranoid. Yet you see no problem with this behavior.

You seem to think that everything said in this thread (and not just by me, it would seem) is attacking you. It is not. One of the reasons I mentioned that i've been around a while and participated and was making these comments with the community in mind was to make sure that people (like yourself) understood i didn't create this thread to draw attention to myself or because i had personal grievances against anybody.I do not feel attacked by anyone or anything said in this thread, except for you and the other person who sent me a rep comment yesterday saying: 'get off your high horse. Damn.' Your words in your posts to me are clear. I do not know what you are trying to prove here. I did not start this unpleasantness between us. I do not appreciate the personal attacks. I am asking you as politely as I can to stop.

And yes, my post in response to yours may have been a little strong, but i was a tad heated. I actually did take the time to explain why i was heated, though.You attacked me. Next time when you get heated over one of my posts, take a second to breathe. Walk away from the computer if you have to and then reread what I have said without adding your own issues into it, without assigning the emotion to my words that you obviously did to arrive at such an angry place. Perhaps then you can post in a reasonable way, without insult and attack, and you and I can avoid such an ungainly confrontation in the future.


To the other participants in this thread:

My apologies.

[Ambrosia]

Hmmm. In that intense poem, you probably could have just posted "the subject matter is too intense for me, but I think this poem is excellent", that would tell the author that their poem was impacting people, and that is wonderful feedback!

I agree the encouragement is never a bad thing, but encouragement without criticism of a poem that is seriously lacking is a HUGE problem. How does the poet improve if they get empty praise?

This is of course not directed at you, Ambrosia, I'm not saying that you shower writers with undeserved praise. I am just noting something that I've seen that has bothered me, and bringing it up for discussion.Fei, my thinking on the part of giving praise if you like a poem but can not offer a crit of it, is not that the person would receive no constructive criticism. But that they would receive encouragement from those who can give it and crits from those who can do that part. I do not see it as an either/or issue. For instance, there have been times when all I could say of a poem is I like it or I found the images engaging, and then you would come in and help the person with tightening the poem. Both types of feedback are valuable in my opinon. The person still improves but does not become discouraged in the meantime. Does that make sense to you?

[Feiss]

Fei, my thinking on the part of giving praise if you like a poem but can not offer a crit of it, is not that the person would receive no constructive criticism. But that they would receive encouragement from those who can give it and crits from those who can do that part. I do not see it as an either/or issue. For instance, there have been times when all I could say of a poem is I like it or I found the images engaging, and then you would come in and help the person with tightening the poem. Both types of feedback are valuable in my opinon. The person still improves but does not become discouraged in the meantime. Does that make sense to you?


We're talking about two separate issues here. You are talking about a poem you like, and telling the poster that you like it. There's nothing wrong with that.

My point was for those cases that if a critter doesn't actually care for the poem, but says encouraging things like "good job, keep it up" to be nice. The writer of the poem would then think "oh, so and so thinks my poem is good, I am fabulous", when in reality, there are things that need work. So in that case, I think the critter has hurt rather than helped the poet.

Now you said earlier, that in those cases, when you didn't understand or didn't like a poem, you'd just move on. That is totally fine in my book, because you are not helping or hurting.

[skelly]

I did not start this unpleasantness between us. I do not appreciate the personal attacks. I am asking you as politely as I can to stop.

On the contrary, this was entirely a discussion about how many poems we should post at one time until you felt the need to say:

I have yet to 'get on my high horse and ride to battle' and frankly it is not something you want to see me do, either.

If that's not an aggressive escalation of the debate I don't know what is. Isaac made a general observation...one that has been made several times before...and from your very first response you chose to personalize the issue. Why should you feel guilty...etc.

I'll own up to having sent the "high horse" rep comment, and I'll go even farther by admitting now that it was an unfortunate knee-jerk response. Isaac is a friend of mine and your vague threat pissed me off. I certainly hope you will not hold him to account for my poor judgment. As you will learn when you have been here a little longer, Isaac is a great person, a very good poet, and a well-respected (if infrequent) contributor to this forum.

[Stew21]

Oh dear.

This isn't an issue that needs to be taken personally by anyone. Isaac didn't call anyone out. If you chose to make it about yourself then you saw a resemblance. There's nothing wrong with that. But it isn't Isaac's fault. Take it upon yourselves to make changes if you see yourself in some of what he said.

This topic has come up before as Rob mentioned. Heck, one time I was one who was posting too much. I didn't get offended; I recommended the chapbook. I was on a poetry streak and enthusiasm got the best of me. I realized I had to be more patient and recognized I was using too much of our critting resources for myself.

Regarding new people, sometimes it helps to see a bit of their style before determining the kind of crit to make. I used to be that way too. You don't know what kind of response they are seeking until you see someone else go first. It's a natural hesitation, just remember that someone has to be the first to comment and sometimes it would be good if it was you. We were all newbies once. We survived. :)

Read the threads on critting to see where we've been. We don't expect crit quotas before posting, but we do hope the participants are courteous enough to share the precious front page space.

It's not personal and it shouldn't be made to be personal. That wasn't Isaac's intention.

Carry on the conversation constructively, respect each other and if you have a problem with someone don't take it upon yourselves; send me a PM instead.

[skelly]

The thread has come up before as Rob mentioned. heck, one time I was one who was posting too much. I didn't get offended; I recommended the chapbook.

I remember that. You were posting a poem almost every six months. You've certainly scaled that waaaay back.

:D

[Stew21]

Also, regarding critting newbies. The first crit I ever received on a poem here was from William Haskins, when he was the moderator of this room. He was honest, specific with his critique, made suggestions, and wished me well. It was not sugary nice but he was very constructive. I kept posting because the honesty was refreshing. he didn't spare my feelings, but he didn't go out of his way to hurt them either. it was purely helpful. How you interact with newbies in this room is up to you. it's a personal choice. I only ask that what ever method you choose, that you remain respectful, help show them the ropes and make the effort to notice them once in a while. Sometimes you have to be the first to offer our brand of hospitality - which is critique, guidance and help.

[Stew21]

The thread has come up before as Rob mentioned. heck, one time I was one who was posting too much. I didn't get offended; I recommended the chapbook.

I remember that. You were posting a poem almost every six months. You've certainly scaled that waaaay back.

:D

HEY! I was posting a few a day for a while. Now it's about every 3 months.

Work life is busy.

*hhhmmm...when was the last time a posted a poem?*

[skelly]

HEY! I was posting a few a day for a while. Now it's about every 3 months.

Work life is busy.

*hhhmmm...when was the last time a posted a poem?*
While we've got you on the line, Trish...

Those stickys at the top of the crit forum sure take up a lot of space. I wonder if we could put them elsewhere and open up five more slots on the front page? Would that even work? Just curious.

As to the last time you posted a poem, just assume that it has been too long and post another. :)

[KTC]

I know the last time this came up it became a blaster too. I really think this is a discussion that should not be taking place. People can post when they want. There is no need to police it. If you don't want to read all the poems posted by the same person, HERE'S A THOUGHT...don't friggin' click on them. Go to page 2 and be a friggin' hero already.

Case closed.


This is goddamned infantile.

[skelly]

Bullshit. We had a big long bruha brouhoua brew-ha-ha when I brought it up, I DEMAND that this drag on indefinately.

[KTC]

Well, I oughta.

[Ambrosia]

We're talking about two separate issues here. You are talking about a poem you like, and telling the poster that you like it. There's nothing wrong with that.

My point was for those cases that if a critter doesn't actually care for the poem, but says encouraging things like "good job, keep it up" to be nice. The writer of the poem would then think "oh, so and so thinks my poem is good, I am fabulous", when in reality, there are things that need work. So in that case, I think the critter has hurt rather than helped the poet.

Now you said earlier, that in those cases, when you didn't understand or didn't like a poem, you'd just move on. That is totally fine in my book, because you are not helping or hurting.Thanks for clarifying, Fei. I agree with you that it would be less than helpful to say you like a poem when you don't or saying it is good when it isn't. The person posting would definitely get the wrong message.

Thank you, Fei. :)

[ajc]

Here's when I feel guilty (and I am not even hinting about when anyone else should, just sharing my own reactions:

- when I don't crit a new visitor who's not getting much attention (but if lots of others are on it, I don't worry so much)
- when I don't speak up about something I really like - or that I think I *could* really like with a few tweaks (I like Don's suggestion about using a rep point instead of a comment if I'm only saying 'I like this' on something that's already getting lots of attention)
- when I post lots and don't comment (no, actually I don't feel guilty - I just don't let that happen.)
- if I don't give some feedback to someone who's been spending a lot of time helping others.

Here's when I don't feel guilty: when I ignore someone, new or old, who shows up, posts a lot, and doesn't spend any time helping others (though it's reasonable for a newbie to need a gentle hint); when I don't crit everything someone prolific writes (I figure if you post that much, you risk not having it all read - but people have a right to choose their own risks).

It's really none of my business what others do: if I were pure of heart and less interfering, no doubt I'd comment only when I thought I could help a poem. Clearly I'm not. On the other hand, I am welcoming enough occasionally to crit a new poet, even if I don't like the work, so they don't get ignored. Hopefully my vices and virtues balance out.

We have people who post a lot and crit a lot. We have people who rarely visit but occasionally post something and then crit a few others while they're here. Neither of those scenarios strikes me as a problem. Further, if people restrict themselves to posting less often, I suspect wha will happen is not an active board with more people posting, but a slower-moving forum in general. That may be fine for those who hang out all across AW and just check in here regularly, but for those of us who mostly frequent this forum (I don't *write* fiction) I think that would feel stagnant.

If someone posts five poems a day and I only crit one in ten, they've got no right getting offended - but last I heard, no one is. I don't average even one a day lately, but creativity comes in bursts for me and sometimes the next one can't wait. I don't like rules either, but I do like the suggestions that people be more conscious about looking on the second page, commenting on newbies and those who have no or few crits (poets, not poems) and making sure you crit more than you post.

This makes so much sense.

[ajc]

I know the last time this came up it became a blaster too. I really think this is a discussion that should not be taking place. People can post when they want. There is no need to police it. If you don't want to read all the poems posted by the same person, HERE'S A THOUGHT...don't friggin' click on them. Go to page 2 and be a friggin' hero already.

Case closed.


This is goddamned infantile.

And, this too!

[Priene]

I know the last time this came up it became a blaster too. I really think this is a discussion that should not be taking place
Case closed.


This is goddamned infantile.

Here's a thought: keep your comments out of this thread if it's all too infantile for you.

[William Haskins]

would baby-talking, so that others understand, be acceptable?

[Izz]

Oh dear.

This isn't an issue that needs to be taken personally by anyone. Isaac didn't call anyone out.

It's not personal and it shouldn't be made to be personal. That wasn't Isaac's intention.Thank you, Trish, and everybody else here who understands my intent.

As for the discussion: I'll state again that I wasn't asking that rules be instituted or saying that people should stop posting or anything like that. But this is an issue that pops up from time to time. Thing is, Kevin, if it's not addressed it never stops. I held off from making the post for a few weeks, actually, mainly because i knew that there'd be vitriol thrown about when I did because people would think they were being singled out if they happened to be the poets on that day who had a majority of the front page. Fortunately, some people have made useful suggestions and observations. And it's something, that if we're aware of, we can self-regulate. There's no need to police anything, just for us as individuals to remind ourselves every so often that we belong to a larger community. And it's never a bad thing to remind people that page 1 isn't the only poetry crit page. We forget that sometimes.

[KTC]

Here's a thought: keep your comments out of this thread if it's all too infantile for you.


Here's a thought: Settle down. Someone had to say it. The poets chase their tails far too often. The bickering and infights are disturbing.

[KTC]

But this is an issue that pops up from time to time. Thing is, Kevin, if it's not addressed it never stops.

This was my intention. The issue shouldn't pop up because it's not a problem to the non-prima donnas. People should post when they want. And...like I said...if you don't like seeing 6 poems by the same person on page one...you can always click on page 2.

[Izz]

The issue shouldn't pop up because it's not a problem to the non-prima donnas.I don't think i've ever been called a prima-donna before. I'll have to add that to my wardrobe :D

[KTC]

I'm just sayin'...these spats do not come up that much on any of the other forums here. What the hell is it with the poets...they have to make suggestions all the time to try to fix something that isn't broken. If I were a poetry forum mod, I wouldn't be... because I would have quit long ago. Always someone complaining about something. I love the poetry forum for the poetry...but every once in a while it inevitably sickens me enough to stay a great distance from it until the sting of all the stupidity wears off. No other forum on AW shares this problem. Only the poets bicker.

I won't be back to read your replies, so you can decide for yourself whether or not you want to bother replying. This place has done it to me yet again.

[Izz]

Sigh. Once again Isaac needs to remind himself that good intentions mean jack-all.

A round of apologies for everybody, on me.

[Feiss]

I know you only meant to encourage everyone to share the love a little, be more generous in their posting. I return your apology because it's not necessary.

[moblues]

I hope this is the last post on the subject. For the last month or so I had a fire in my belly. I am guilty of posting too much recently. I said as much.

But, I have a self-imposed rule:

I cannot post anything new unless I at least attempt to crit every new poem. What I mean by attempt is that if another poet had a great crit on a piece already, I move on. I may say great piece--great crit.

I was critting 5-10 poems each night before I submitted something new. Stew can check the logs and timestamps.

I realize I wasn't being singled out. I just feel bad because I was bumping new poets.

I'm kind of at a crossroads here. Do I continue to post here? Do I stay within my minimalist thread?

I accept that I was one of the sources of the problem. I am not bitching at all.

I just wanted you guys to know I took care of new posts first.




Mike

[Stew21]

Sheesh.

I think I'll take the baby-talk, William.

[Feiss]

The atmosphere in this thread like a fartified and crowded elevator going up the sears tower.

[Priene]

...hell...quit...Always someone complaining...inevitably sickens me....all the stupidity...bicker...I won't be back to read your replies,..This place has done it to me yet again.

Like I say, infantile.

[poetinahat]

Good God. How did we get to this point?

Starting from the top: Can we share the love a bit? Without agenda, without rancour, it's a pretty good question.

No harm was meant anywhere, I'm sure. Can we all step back and realise that?

To everyone who thinks she or he should go away - I heartily invite - nay, I CHALLENGE - you NOT to go away at all. I challenge you to spend MORE time here.

I visit that challenge upon myself.

Spats happen in the best of families, and as Scott says, this is a family thing. You're all in it.

Hugs,

erstwhilepoetinahat

[poetinahat]

A bad idea. The threads established by long-standing, prolific poets will take up residency on Page 1 and never leave, making posts by new members fly off even faster. Batching might work though, ie Moblues' April Poems.
I don't follow. Why would containing all the poems in one thread bump even more off the front page? It would take only one line. If a new thread is started each month, it's still only one thread.

In any case, it's just grist for the mill. And I'd rather not put in *any* rules; these things tend to work themselves out.

[caseyquinn]

I think what priene means is that if i create a thread for all of my poems, and amy, and feiss and mike and ambrosia and LT and everyone else who posts on a normal basis, you are going to have 10 - 15 individual posts that just dont leave the front page. I am a big fan of no rules, just let the good times roll...

[poetinahat]

Yup.

And we do have this discussion every six or twelve months. It comes and goes.

[Stew21]

Rob, isn't one of our stickies a link to other such threads?

[Stew21]

Sheesh.

I think I'll take the baby-talk, William.


I received a PM question about this. No it wasn't directed at any of you. It was just a bit of frustration. I logged off for the day and was surprised when I came back later yesterday that it had gotten worse.

I apologize for making such an unhelpful comment.

[P.H.Delarran]

I love this place.

[skelly]

I love this place.
I love your avatars.

I think Rob deserves a big ol "round of" for not exploding into a billion tiny (rhyming) pieces every time this, or one just like it, comes up. God bless you my friend, and your cohort Trish as well.

I'd avoid that Kevin dude for awhile tho. Jeeez!

Anyway, we all have our opinion of the thing...some, like me, think it is a problem, others, like that goof Kevin, think not. Either way, since we are going to have to debate it every 8 to 14 months, we might as well agree to laugh at each other every time it comes up, rather than shouting.

Personally I hope Ganesha brings it up next time. That would be awesome!

:D