Protestant and Catholic difference

[cooeedownunder]

My two MCs are an English Protestant and an Irish Catholic - I am wondering what the main difference is between these two religions. I am a Catholic and I have heard the Protestants don't believe Mary was a virgin. I also heard that Protestants don't have confession. Is this true? And also what are some other differences?

[Suse]

I was brought up Protestant, Church of Scotland. We do believe Mary was a Virgin, but don't pray through her. Protestants pray directly to god, in the name of Jesus. We don't use rosaries or go to confession. The idea is that Protestants pray directly to god and ask directly for forgiveness. We do not seek intervention through priests or saints. Only god can forgive your sins, not priests. Ministers are there to give you advice and guide you to a direct relationship with god. Also, we don't take communion. I'm agnostic, but my mum studied with just about every branch of Protestantism and Christianity under the sun, so if you have any specific questions, I'll happily try to answer.

[Suse]

Actually, when I think about it, is your character Church of England? I don't know much about that, except the ritual is very similar to Catholic ritual, since it's basically a break away from the Catholic church.

[williemeikle]

That's a -big- subject, but starting here might help:

http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=1623&C=1563

On the question of Mary's virginity, most protestant churches believe that Mary -was- a virgin and Jesus was a virgin birth. The difference is they do not believe she remained a virgin thereafter

[waylander]

I'm C-of-E English married to an Irish Catholic.
There's no confession in the C of E, much less mention of the Virgin Mary, the interiors of the churches are generally plainer. The services are pretty similar. We do take communion of both bread and wine.

[rugcat]

I'm C-of-E English married to an Irish Catholic.
There's no confession in the C of E, much less mention of the Virgin Mary, the interiors of the churches are generally plainer. The services are pretty similar. We do take communion of both bread and wine.And yet those small differences informed a lot of history.

[donroc]

Transubstantiation vs. consubstantiation.

Protestants reject Papal authority.

[cherubsmummy]

Australian Church of England /Anglican here with a Catholic husband, so I've seen both sides of the fence. :)

Catholics pray to Saints, particularly Mary, to intercede with God on their behalf. Anglicans do believe in the Virgin birth, but do not pray to Saints.

Anglicans do have confession as an option - I had to confess before my confirmation / first communion. However, mostly confession only occurs as part of the Mass, with a prayer and absolution before the Communion part. The Mass said in each denomination is actually very similar, and I found it easy to go between the two churches.

The biggest differences I have noticed are the belief in the Pope's infallibility, celibacy of the clergy (a big one for me, as my father was an ordained Anglican priest) and the intercession of saints thing.

Edit: I am not particularly versed in the theological differences, so can only say what I have seen from attending both churches on a regular basis.
Emma

[Medievalist]

There are differences; but in general the large Protestant denominations also accept, and are founded upon, the Nicean Creed.

One of the larger differences is that the NT Letters are interpreted differently particularly in terms of the value of Works and Faith, and whether Faith alone is enough for salvation.

There are also differences in ritual, and in the role of communion and, specifically, transubstantiation. There are also differences in the translations and canon of the Bible.

Protestants, in general, do not require auricular confession, nor do they require the Virgin, the saints, or a priest as an intermediary between an individual and Christ, or God.

Different Protestant denominations will also differ in terms of the role, and nature, of the trinity.

[Marina Snow]

I was brought up Protestant, Church of Scotland. We do believe Mary was a Virgin, but don't pray through her.

Neither do Catholics. We pray to her, asking her for help, just as a person asks their living loved ones for help. We pray to her because she is the Mother of God.

Only god can forgive your sins, not priests.

Not according to Jesus.

[Marina Snow]

The biggest differences I have noticed are the belief in the Pope's infallibility, celibacy of the clergy (a big one for me, as my father was an ordained Anglican priest) and the intercession of saints thing.


For accuracy sake, Catholics do not believe that the pope is infallible, only that he is infallible on matters of faith and morals. Meaning, he cannot teach differently than what has already been taught by Jesus. If he does, he is not a true pope. In all other areas, he is fallible.

[cooeedownunder]

Thanks guys and williemeikle I read that article and found it very interesting.

I have been trying to find something that would cause internal conflict between my charachters based on their beliefs, but all in all they seem extremly similar. I have been trying to work out a way that their Religious beliefs would keep them apart.

My story is set in Australia in 1820 - 1830 and at that time the town I am writing about has only a Angilcan Church and it took many years for the Catholic Church to be built despite the majority of the town folk being Catholics. My Protestant MC is female and wealthy and has provided funds to the assist in the building of the Angican Church so that both the poorer Catholics and Prostants children can be taught. My male MC is from Catholic Irish convicts but has been brought up by a Scottish Prosidant stepfather - during this time of growing up he would have had to attend Protestant services while his mother was devoutly Catholic - My male MC is wealthy after inheriting his stepfathers land and widowed and has a son who he can only have educated by allowing him to attend to attend Prosistant teachings, when at this time many Catholics would not allow their children to be taught by non Catholics -

any ideas?

[Marina Snow]

One of the larger differences is that the NT Letters are interpreted differently particularly in terms of the value of Works and Faith, and whether Faith alone is enough for salvation.


This is correct. One of the largest differences between Protestantism and Catholicism is that Protestants believe that all one has to do is "believe" in Jesus and they can then do as they wish and still be "saved." Catholics know that a person must change their life, live with Christ principles, have Christ-like thoughts, and act in accordance with the Divine Will in order to get to heaven

There are also differences in the translations and canon of the Bible.Yes, the difference is that Catholics adhere to the orginal version of the scriptures.

[cooeedownunder]

Ah, I am wondering if the fact my MC has been married, although he is widowed, could be a problem for my Prosidant MC if she had never been married?

[Marina Snow]

I have been trying to find something that would cause internal conflict between my charachters based on their beliefs, but all in all they seem extremly similar. I have been trying to work out a way that their Religious beliefs would keep them apart.

You might want to use the main difference as your conflict --which is, what I wrote in message number thirteen about faith vs. works. If you do use it, you ought to truly research this matter, not just accept what is written on a forum message board. You will need to do some reading at at library. Or, being that you are Catholic, you might have access to a library at your parish that has historical books on the matter. If nothing else, at least speak with your priest and maybe interview a Protestant minister. Priests are well educated on Catholic church history and the history of Protestantism

[Marina Snow]

Ah, I am wondering if the fact my MC has been married, although he is widowed, could be a problem for my Prosidant MC if she had never been married?

It is no problem if the person is widowed. Divorce is a problem for a Catholic.

[cooeedownunder]

You might want to use the main difference as your conflict --which is, what I wrote in message number thirteen about faith vs. works. If you do use it, you ought to truly research this matter, not just accept what is written on a forum message board. You will need to do some reading at at library. Or, being that you are Catholic, you might have access to a library at your parish that has historical books on the matter. If nothing else, at least speak with your priest and maybe interview a Protestant minister. Priests are well educated on Catholic church history and the history of Protestantism

Thank you for the suggestion.

[Memnon624]

Reminds me of an old joke: what's the difference between a Baptist and a Catholic? A Catholic will say "hi" to you at the liquor store :)

Back to your regularly scheduled thread . . .

Scott

[Tocotin]

Ah, I am wondering if the fact my MC has been married, although he is widowed, could be a problem for my Prosidant MC if she had never been married?

It could be a problem when they decide to have children, cooee. If he's a Catholic, he would be under an obligation to raise his children Catholic as well and she could be opposed to it.

[cooeedownunder]

It could be a problem when they decide to have children, cooee. If he's a Catholic, he would be under an obligation to raise his children Catholic as well and she could be opposed to it.

Ah Tocotin, yes, you are correct and I should have thought of this. My first marragie was to a Church of England fellow and we had that exact same conversation and he was not very happy that I was determine to have our children brought up as Catholics - hence I got my way by divorcing him and marrying another Catholic :D

Yes, I see that female MC could be against this idea and my Catholic very determine to have his way after being forced to attend to Prosidant teachings himself.

Thank you.

[cooeedownunder]

Reminds me of an old joke: what's the difference between a Baptist and a Catholic? A Catholic will say "hi" to you at the liquor store :)

Back to your regularly scheduled thread . . .

Scott

Funny, funny - My husband's grandfather who was a Catholic use to send everybody off to Church on a Sunday, and when they got home take his son-in-laws to the club.

[pdr]

One of the largest differences between Protestantism and Catholicism is that Protestants believe that all one has to do is "believe" in Jesus and they can then do as they wish and still be "saved." Catholics know that a person must change their life, live with Christ principles, have Christ-like thoughts, and act...

Nope. Not true at all. A Protestant has to follow the precepts Jesus taught and live them. That's been true since Martin Luther.

And I'm laughing because you have reversed the commonly held Protestant belief that Catholics can do anything they like as long as they go to confession, confess and receive absolution. And of course, all Protestants know that Catholics revere Mary more than Jesus. :)

No wonder, is it, that we have religious wars?

[Suse]

Neither do Catholics. We pray to her, asking her for help, just as a person asks their living loved ones for help. We pray to her because she is the Mother of God.

Yes, that's essentially what I was saying. Protestants do not pray to Mary or ask for her intercession with God. Protestants establish a direct relationship with God. Mary was chosen as a righteous virgin to bear Jesus. She is the mother of God in his aspect of Jesus. Incidentally, in my church-going experience, not all Protestant churches preach the doctrine of Trinity. Obviously I didn't come up with these idea and am not expressing any opinions. Though I was brought up in a household where religion was always being studied, I am agnostic.

I wasn't suggesting whether or not Jesus taught you can gain forgiveness through priests. However I'd be inclined to say he preached a direct relationship with god and was highly critical of teachers.

One of the largest differences between Protestantism and Catholicism is that Protestants believe that all one has to do is "believe" in Jesus and they can then do as they wish and still be "saved." Catholics know that a person must change their life, live with Christ principles, have Christ-like thoughts, and act in accordance with the Divine Will in order to get to heaven
.

Not true at all, Marina. Protestants hold that true belief in Jesus will result in good works and a change of life. Faith can have no other result. If a person follows base desires, they cannot be genuine believers. They may be believers who have temporarily lost their way. Good actions are a result of faith and cannot independently get you salvation, as with the Indulgences that so troubled Martin Luther.

[RichardB]

Cooee, a distinction is needed here: when you say "protestant" I think a lot of people are thinking Lutheran or Evangelical styles of Protestantism. Having been raised Catholic and now a practicing Episcopalian (American Anglican) I can say there is not much operational difference in the 21st century. There are a few:

my priest is a woman
my particular parish supports gay marriage
Mary and the saints are revered, but not to the extent they are in Catholicism. Episcopalians differ on the nature of their veneration of Mary.
any baptized Christian is welcome for communion
confession is more optional. Eucharist services often include blanket absolution.
matters of doctrine are decided by a council of Church leaders "in communion" with Anglican churches worldwide. There is no supreme authority like the Pope.Otherwise being in church feels a lot like it did when I was a kid - only I feel much more comfortable being there :) Unfortunately I don't know a thing about the 19th century Anglican church. I'm sure they did not have women priests or gay marriage.

Why not get an interview with your local vicar? He or she is certain to be a doctor of divinity who will know everything you need to know. I've found in my research that clergy love to talk to authors. I had some fascinating interviews with a Coptic priest.

Anyway, my main point here is to caution you to be sure you're asking the right question. It's the difference between Anglicanism and Catholicism, which is maybe not as stark as the differences between Catholics and "Protestants" in general. Remember, Church of England was created so the English King would have religious authority. Lutheran Protestantism was created for an entirely different reason. Many Episcopalians (myself included) do not consider ourselves "Protestants" at all.

Good luck and, I suppose, God bless :)

[donroc]

An Episcopalian I knew years ago used to sing a song she learned at camp regarding the similarities between it Anglicansim too) and Catholicism, with the last line being: " ... just one step away from Rome."

[SirOtter]

Cradle Southern Baptist here who eventually let his cradle Episcopalian wife convert him. We have many former Catholic members in our church, all of whom feel very comfortable with our liturgy. There are a couple more differences, as I understand:

Clergy, male or female, may marry. (That might have been mentioned)

We consider all the faithful departed to be saints, not just those who've been canonized first or whose feast days we recognize (though not necessarily observe).

Your dig at Baptists for what they call the 'security of the believer' isn't all that off base. A lot do justify bad behavior on that basis, although it's not at all what the doctrine was intended for. The idea was that true repentence can always restore right standing, without having to go through ecclesiastical courts or other such rituals. As noted, there are numerous places in the epistles (James, Hebrews, I John, etc.) where it's pointed out that works are the evidence of faith, and that faith without works is empty.

BTW, why don't Baptists have sex standing up?

It looks too much like dancing.

[OpheliaRevived]

Protestants don't recognize the Pope and do not pray to Catholic Saints. Protestants believe Mary was a virgin, until she came together with Joseph as husband and wife and therefore had the children mentioned in the bible. Only Christs' birth, according to the protestant belief, was divine. They also don't believe that Mary is divine, merely blessed.

Those are just fundamental differences. There are so many sects that you really have to limit it to one specific church. Are we talking Church of England?

[BardSkye]

BTW, why don't Baptists have sex standing up?

It looks too much like dancing.

Ah, but at least they know how to sing!

Have you thought of asking some of the people in AW's Religions section if any have studied this sort of thing?

[girlyswot]

I have been trying to find something that would cause internal conflict between my charachters based on their beliefs, but all in all they seem extremly similar. I have been trying to work out a way that their Religious beliefs would keep them apart.


Oh dear. If you can't find a way to make a conflict between a Catholic and a Protestant, then... oh, dear. You really, really need to do some serious research if this is going to be in your story.

The most obvious issue, especially in the 19th century (there has been a bit more toing and froing about this in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries) is that Catholics held that only Catholics could be saved. Salvation was in and through the Church. So your Catholic guy has been taught that the Protestant woman is a heretic and damned to hell. Of course, Protestants believed that Catholics were heretics too. Some potential conflict there, perhaps?

That's going to hit home in terms of their choices about where they could get married and what the status of their children would be. Protestants have generally been compelled to allow their children to be raised Catholic - but if she's serious about her faith, that's not going to be an easy choice.

During the nineteenth century, Catholicism became much 'higher' than it had previously been. This was when the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was made official (i.e. that not only was Mary a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but that she herself was born of a virgin). If that's happening around the time of your story, then it will be very easy for your Protestant to dismiss Catholicism as superstitious nonsense, while the Catholic character will be struggling with issues of Papal authority. Oh, you should also check, but I think they were still saying Latin masses in Catholic churches then. That would be another point of contention - a Protestant wouldn't see the point of mumbling words you don't understand. The Catholic, on the other hand, would want to emphasise the value of tradition and continuity, and the role of the priest in mediating between God and the congregation. For the Protestant, it's all about direct access.

Others have mentioned the faith/works issue and the consubstantiation/transubstantiation/real presence issue at the communion meal. Those were the crucial issues in the sixteenth century but I'd doubt whether ordinary churchgoers in the nineteenth century could have articulated them, particularly not the latter. Most can't now.

[cooeedownunder]

Thank you everybody and girlyswot - yes you are correct with that I need to research to include this - google and here has been my first spot - I accidentially began writing about the first Catholic church in a town, I know the history of very well, which became the 2nd Catholic church in Australia - I had no intention of writing about religion but have somehow fallen into it to degree.

[angeliz2k]

To be honest, in a lot of places and times, the mere fact of one being Protestant and the other Catholic would be more than enough conflict. They'd be unlikely to care for each other as human beings in a lot of cases. Even if they came to care for each other, they probably would be put off by the other's religion. And if they weren't everyone around them would be.

Definitely do your research, but seriously there's enough conflict here without needing to touch a single theological point.

[Tocotin]

This was when the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was made official (i.e. that not only was Mary a virgin when she conceived Jesus, but that she herself was born of a virgin).

Sorry to disagree, but this is a common misconception of the Immaculate Conception (lol). This dogma has nothing to do with Mary's virginity. It states that she was born without original sin:

We pronounce, declare and define, unto the glory of the holy and indivisible Trinity, the honour and ornament of the holy virgin, the Mother of God, for the exaltation of the Catholic Faith and the increase of the Christian religion by the authority of Our Lord Jesus Christ and the blessed apostles Peter and Paul, and in Our own authority, that the doctrine which holds the Blessed Virgin Mary to have been, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ the Saviour of mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin, was revealed by God, and is, therefore, to be firmly and constantly believed by the faithful. (Decree of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary)

[Marina Snow]

Nope. Not true at all. A Protestant has to follow the precepts Jesus taught and live them. That's been true since Martin Luther.



Oh? Every Protestant I have ever met and heard on TV has proclaimed that all they have to do is to "believe" in Jesus.

And did you know that Protestantism was founded by Luther on the very belief that you can "sin and sin boldly" and still go to Heaven? I can give you the historical reference if you like.

[Marina Snow]

..Good actions are a result of faith and cannot independently get you salvation, as with the Indulgences that so troubled Martin Luther.

Luther talked to Satan and wanted to end with the Mass, the Holy Eucharist, and the papacy. The abuse of indulgences of those times were merely an open door to Luther's evil.

[Don Allen]

Mike is Irish Catholic, Pat is English Protestant, they are both brick layers working across the street from a well known Whore House in the heart of Ireland.
Mike looks up and sees a Jewish Rabbi climbing the stairs to the house of ill repute and says to Pat, "Shame of it all, a leader of the Jewish faith going into a place like that".
Pat shakes his head in disbelief.

A few moments later Pat's Protestant Minister is climbing the same stairs and entering the bordello as Mike just shakes his head in disgust while Pat is visable shaken at the sight.

Within moments, Mike's Catolic Priest is heading up those very same stairs when Mike slaps Pat on the back and proclaims with a heavy brogue "Sure-as-can-be Pat, there must be someone awful sick in that building, awful sick"


All you need to know regarding the difference.........

[Marina Snow]

No wonder, is it, that we have religious wars?

Wars, religious or otherwise, begin because of men who desire power and who have an uncontrollable nature for violence.

Having a discussion on a forum message board is healthy dialogue. What do you want, for people to all just 'get along' with superficial pleasantries and people-pleasing BS?

[cooeedownunder]

Oh? Every Protestant I have ever met and heard on TV has proclaimed that all they have to do is to "believe" in Jesus.

And did you know that Protestantism was founded by Luther on the very belief that you can "sin and sin boldly" and still go to Heaven? I can give you the historical reference if you like.

I'm a catholic and I think pdr was merely stating that both some Catholics and Protestants think the same of each other in reverse - regardless if one is right or wrong.

And I think her statement from a Protestant point of view in regards to Catholics and confession could be precieved as the same thing. I have a slightly different understanding of confession that if I sin, I need to truely rependt, not just attend confession, but regardless I can see why our confession could be precieved another way - and having said that, it is some of these differences that has caused much conflict and suspicion at times between both parties.

I also think pdrs comments on regligious wars was clearly correct - even on this forum we have some people who believe very strongly they are correct in their perception of the other, when I, at the end of the day, see very little difference when it comes to the fact we have the same God, but see the meaning of the text of the Bible differently.

[Marina Snow]

I'm a catholic and I think pdr was merely stating that both some Catholics and Protestants think the same of each other in reverse - regardless if one is right or wrong.

You may be correct here, but as far as Luther goes, pdr is wrong. This is not my opinion, it is a historical fact.

I can see why our confession could be precieved another way - and having said that, it is some of these differences that has caused much conflict and suspicion at times between both parties.

Yes, I can see why too, but if people just assume and don't take the time to educate themselves, then they will continue to hold the incorrect view.

[cooeedownunder]

Mike is Irish Catholic, Pat is English Protestant, they are both brick layers working across the street from a well known Whore House in the heart of Ireland.
Mike looks up and sees a Jewish Rabbi climbing the stairs to the house of ill repute and says to Pat, "Shame of it all, a leader of the Jewish faith going into a place like that".
Pat shakes his head in disbelief.

A few moments later Pat's Protestant Minister is climbing the same stairs and entering the bordello as Mike just shakes his head in disgust while Pat is visable shaken at the sight.

Within moments, Mike's Catolic Priest is heading up those very same stairs when Mike slaps Pat on the back and proclaims with a heavy brogue "Sure-as-can-be Pat, there must be someone awful sick in that building, awful sick"


All you need to know regarding the difference.........

At the end of the day I agree there is no difference with any man on earth, but just a difference in the way we live our life, and our beliefs of where we come from, and where we are going to after we leave this earth.

[cooeedownunder]

Wars, religious or otherwise, begin because of men who desire power and who have an uncontrollable nature for violence.

Having a discussion on a forum message board is healthy dialogue. What do you want, for people to all just 'get along' with superficial pleasantries and people-pleasing BS?

Again, I am thinking that you may be misreading pdrs remark about religious wars - as for the forums here, I don't think anyone is expected to agree necessary on every point, that wasn't the purpose of the thread, and I think we need to remember that we can't see the other people, and that sometimes the tone of a post may be read wrong, and it is very unlikely that anyone is attempting to be anything but pleasant.

[cherubsmummy]

In early Australian history the hostility in Ireland was often simply transferred to Australia. Most of the Irish Catholic convicts were political dissenters, shipped off to the Colonies to reduce their voice in Ireland. Your characters would have vast baggage to work through, particularly the Irish Catholic, who would have, most likely, a tremendous disgust for the 'noble' heritage of the Protestant lady. You would have enormous potential for conflict if you take a look at Irish history around the time that he came over to Australia. I would probably not focus on the religious differences so much as the political differences between an Irish commoner and a British aristocrat. But, of course, that's just my opinion, and not worth the paper it's printed on ;)

I'd love to have a read of your novel when it's ready for betaing. I am also working on an Australian colonial novel, though set in North Queensland around 1880.

Emma

[pdr]

To have a discussion one must be prepared to discuss and listen and think.

Anyway Cooee, why don't you look at the social situation of the day in Australia. Catholicism at your date was still illegal in the British Commonwealth and Catholics were still regarded as the lowest of the low. There is a wide range of possibilities here for you to pick from horrified parents, angry priests, social group shunning etc. Have fun.

[cooeedownunder]

In early Australian history the hostility in Ireland was often simply transferred to Australia. Most of the Irish Catholic convicts were political dissenters, shipped off to the Colonies to reduce their voice in Ireland. Your characters would have vast baggage to work through, particularly the Irish Catholic, who would have, most likely, a tremendous disgust for the 'noble' heritage of the Protestant lady. You would have enormous potential for conflict if you take a look at Irish history around the time that he came over to Australia. I would probably not focus on the religious differences so much as the political differences between an Irish commoner and a British aristocrat. But, of course, that's just my opinion, and not worth the paper it's printed on ;)

I'd love to have a read of your novel when it's ready for betaing. I am also working on an Australian colonial novel, though set in North Queensland around 1880.

Emma

Emma, although backstory and another WIP I have placed on the backburner, my MC is an Australian born Catholic to Irish convicts and he ends up being raised by a Scottish Prostestant when his father dies and his mother marries this Scottish fellow. I am still fiddling with my timeline and this Catholics past slightly, due to the actual dates of the different churches having been built and the logic of how religious and the depth of his faith could be after being given religious instruction from his mother while being forced to a Prostestant mass (I instantly sensed conflict there but had no understanding of Prostestant faith and hence why I posted this thread) and I have been playing with the plight of the Irish and his parents and the marked impression this could have on him, and I have been looking at the history of the Irish at the time his parents would have been transported.

My story currently starts at the time it is consider the first priest were official being sent to Australia.

I had originally thought that a larger portion of the Irish prisioners where also political prisioners but that is not truly the case. Up until 1803 there were apparently just under 3000 Irish convicts of which around 600 or approimately a third, were considered to be truly political prisioners with few after this date and I do concede that is lot but not the majority.

My male MC parents were political prisioners so I do have a bit to play with there but I have found it very hard not to ignore the fact that the majority of this town at that time was Catholic and that the second Catholic church in Australia was built in this town and still stands today along with the Anglican church which is now considered the oldest in Australia.

I had no intention of writing about churches or religion but I feel that since I have brought up the issue the Catholics had getting this Church built that it has for some reason become important to me to explore what the issues were and of course find true inner conflict for my charachters apart from them just disliking each other- as soon as I started writing about these two churches I could see there was a need to explore this much.

And thank you for the beta offer, we should keep in touch and exchange as I am greatly interested in stories set in the 1800s in Australia but they are few and far between in the sense of what I have enjoyed reading - many of them have ignored some important parts of our history and completly focused on the politics of the time.

[waylander]

Scottish protestant is potentially pretty different to CofE/CofS. Which denomination did the stepfather belong to?

[cooeedownunder]

To have a discussion one must be prepared to discuss and listen and think.

Anyway Cooee, why don't you look at the social situation of the day in Australia. Catholicism at your date was still illegal in the British Commonwealth and Catholics were still regarded as the lowest of the low. There is a wide range of possibilities here for you to pick from horrified parents, angry priests, social group shunning etc. Have fun.

Yes, there is much to play with - but at this time only 50 to 100 people in the town to play with - lolol - but I have the entire state, and country, to move into if need be and of course our founding town which is only a few hours drive away being Sydney Town - the first priests arrived as convicts in 1800 and for the next 3 - 4 years one of those convicts was allowed to provide mass to the Catholics in a limited sense despite Catholicism being illegal in England until 1829. Even in the 1950s and probably beyond we were still encountering prejudice in Australia.

History is great stuff - as I never realised the problem my Catholic ancestors must have had until I dawdled into this WIP :)

[cooeedownunder]

Scottish protestant is potentially pretty different to CofE/CofS. Which denomination did the stepfather belong to?

Here you have me BUT...

What I deteremined in my research for my other WIP - (the stepfather of this MC) is that although he could have been English, and possibly an English Catholic, in the marines that came in the first lot of fleets to Australia, the likely hood is that he was an English or Scottish Prosestant, based on land grants given in the area, and a marine in the Kings navy - as most of the land grants given in those first days were to marines and I can find no evidence in that area that one was a Catholic at that time.

So I guess, if there is a Protestant branch that is the furtherest away from the Catholic religion - he needs to be that - I never realised there was such a great difference until I started the thread.

[cherubsmummy]

I confess, your research into Irish convicts has gone a lot deeper than mine. I was attempting to remember (badly) from earlier reading. I wish I could remember where I'd read it, but my understanding was that a lot of the convictions were convenient excuses to transport trouble makers, even though they weren't purely political convictions. It sounds like you've put a lot of thought into your story :)

This thread has provoked some interesting discussion. It amazes me how different views can be. I was raised Anglican, and spent my high school years in a very Catholic town. It was all a bit strange to me until I married my Roman Catholic husband and saw things from the other side of the fence.

I'll pm you about the beta thing :)

Emma

[waylander]

Here you have me BUT...

What I deteremined in my research for my other WIP - (the stepfather of this MC) is that although he could have been English, and possibly an English Catholic, in the marines that came in the first lot of fleets to Australia, the likely hood is that he was an English or Scottish Prosestant, based on land grants given in the area, and a marine in the Kings navy - as most of the land grants given in those first days were to marines and I can find no evidence in that area that one was a Catholic at that time.

So I guess, if there is a Protestant branch that is the furtherest away from the Catholic religion - he needs to be that - I never realised there was such a great difference until I started the thread.

The Church of Scotland in the early 19th century was strongly influenced by Presbyterianism and the teaching of John Knox (a follower of Calvin). There was considerable turmoil within the Church culminating in a schism in 1834. There is plenty of scope within that movement for anti-Catholic sentiment.

[donroc]

Catholics used to burn heretics; Protestants used to burn witches.

[cooeedownunder]

The Church of Scotland in the early 19th century was strongly influenced by Presbyterianism and the teaching of John Knox (a follower of Calvin). There was considerable turmoil within the Church culminating in a schism in 1834. There is plenty of scope within that movement for anti-Catholic sentiment.

This is interesting, and because I am about to go to bed, and it is very late this side of the world, I am wondering when this turmoil started as my story is starting prior to this date but it it does tie into the building of my Catholic church - and gee, I am hoping some majic button writes the story for me before I wake up...

ETA: just having fun - I can see you are leading me on are worthy journey :)

[Marina Snow]

Again, I am thinking that you may be misreading pdrs remark about religious wars -

pdr said, "No wonder, is it, that we have religious wars?" in reference to this thread. According to you, what did I misread about this religious wars comment?

as for the forums here, I don't think anyone is expected to agree necessary on every point, that wasn't the purpose of the thread, and I think we need to remember that we can't see the other people, and that sometimes the tone of a post may be read wrong, and it is very unlikely that anyone is attempting to be anything but pleasant.

I don't read into tone unless there are silly little comments, smilies, snickers, "LOL" etc. But I will correct those who misrepresent Catholicism with untruths and who claim that Protestantism was founded on solid grounds. If my correcting sounds harsh, then so be it.

[cooeedownunder]

Catholics used to burn heretics; Protestants used to burn witches.

Oh, gee, not in Australia, but I can imagine they considered it :D

[cooeedownunder]

pdr said, "No wonder, is it, that we have religious wars?" in reference to this thread. According to you, what did I misread about this religious wars comment?



I don't read into tone unless there are silly little comments, smilies, snickers, "LOL" etc. But I will correct those who misrepresent Catholicism with untruths and who claim that Protestantism was founded on solid grounds. If my correcting sounds harsh, then so be it.

What I was trying to say is that this thread wasn't put here for a debate about religion - there is another forum for that, but moreso for others to post what they believe is their religion or faith in regards to the topic question. There is a slight difference, and pdr commented on a post that you stated you knew what another religion beliefs were.

The original topic is Protestant and Catholic difference (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3469332#post3469332) and if we go back to my question posted under that topic, regardless of how much we think the other may think, clearly the reason for my post wasn't to debate religious differences but state what is the difference bases on individual beliefs.

I sincerely believe that if you need to correct what others beliefs are, or those who have spoken what they believe are our beliefs in the context of this topic post, then you have come to the wrong place. This thread is not for anyone trying to prove anyone wrong, but merely an attempt to gain an understanding of what others faith means to them and their perception of Catholics and Protestants are (if they are one of those religions - although others are welcome to join in the conversation). If you care not for other religous beliefs than there are other threads on AW you to debate those beliefs.

I did not start this thread to prove anyone wrong but merely to hear what they had to say for the purpose of gaining an understanding of different beliefs, but not for the purpose of attemtping to prove them wrong, or chage their faith.

As for attemtping to correct those who have misrepresent Catholicism or those who claim Protestansism is based on solid ground, that is NOT what this post is about. Lets remember what the original question asked.

What is the difference between Protestents and Catholics? - and the only way that question can truly be answered is to hear it from both parties alone.

ETA: My feelings are that if you want to debate the differnces between religion and why you think they are misinterpeted then PM a mod and ask them the best place to do so because I can't find the forum at this hour - I generally don't like debates because they take up too much energy. I just had a quick look and seem to have gotten lost but the mods will most certainly show you the spot.

[waylander]

I am wondering when this turmoil started as my story is starting prior to this date but it it does tie into the building of my Catholic church

My understanding is that it was longstanding, going back deep into the 18th century.
It might also make a bit of difference which bit of Scotland the stepfather came from. Presbyterianism was particularly strong in the south-west of Scotland

[Marina Snow]

Yes, there is another thread for debating religion but frankly I am a little dumbfounded about someone who wants to find factual (I assume?) information for a manuscript and who posts the question on an Internet forum. Especially when they have access to the information through their parish priest or library. If you want your manuscript to be taken seriously, don't you want to be completely accurate?

Your question has already brought up false information about The Holy Virgin Mary and why Catholics pray to her. It has sparked an error about the founding of Protestanism, as well as a false idea of 'the only differences' because the differences are endless. You might want to get your research from a more reliable source.

In addition, there is a difference between belief and facts, between opinion and facts. People can have their own opinions until the cows come home but it won't change facts.

This thread is not for anyone trying to prove anyone wrong, but merely an attempt to gain an understanding of what others faith means to them and their perception of Catholics and Protestants are

You see? You used the word "perception." People's perception has zero to do with historical facts.

Your question was What is the difference between Protestents and Catholics? - If you want to write an accurate novel and be taken seriously about its contents, then you ought to research in the right places.

[Sirius]

And did you know that Protestantism was founded by Luther on the very belief that you can "sin and sin boldly" and still go to Heaven? I can give you the historical reference if you like.


I'm not quite sure why you think that this statement reflects so badly Luther; it's not a particularly great leap to it from what Christ says in Luke 23:43. But, more to the point, it's a passage which is open to a great deal of interpretation as to what Luther meant, and with regard to what the OP was looking for, namely sources of conflict between Catholic and Protestant, it seems to me that one of the biggest sources of conflict is going to stem from what members of one group have been taught to believe the other side believes, whether they do in fact believe it or not. So if, for example, the Protestant has been taught that Catholic priests, in circumstances where it's a choice between mother and child dying in childbirth, insist that the child must always be saved at the mother's expense, then that may well cause conflict even if this is not in fact an accurate summary of what Catholic teaching is on the point.

[Medievalist]

Yes, the difference is that Catholics adhere to the orginal version of the scriptures.

This is

A: Hostile, anti-protestant, and not helpful.

B: Historically inaccurate--speaking as a textual scholar, there is no "original version."

C: This is not the place for this kind of hostility. Cut it out.

[MacAllister]

Luther talked to Satan and wanted to end with the Mass, the Holy Eucharist, and the papacy. The abuse of indulgences of those times were merely an open door to Luther's evil.

o.0

This is what you're calling "historical fact" and the "foundation" of Protestantism? That's some of the most insulting garbage I've ever heard anyone spew on this board.



I don't read into tone unless there are silly little comments, smilies, snickers, "LOL" etc. But I will correct those who misrepresent Catholicism with untruths and who claim that Protestantism was founded on solid grounds. If my correcting sounds harsh, then so be it.

Get off this thread, Marina.

You have the oddest and most eccentric beliefs of anyone I've ever met not actually wearing a tin-foil beanie -- and I'm not inclined to go on providing a platform for you to spout this sort of insulting nonsense.

[Suse]

I thought this thread was about the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism, not a place to make attacks on other people's equally dearly held (or is that, evil?) beliefs. Religious bigotry makes me sick to my stomach.

The differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are indeed huge. Cooee has every right to post here and find a starting point for taking her research.

it seems to me that one of the biggest sources of conflict is going to stem from what members of one group have been taught to believe the other side believes, whether they do in fact believe it or not. So if, for example, the Protestant has been taught that Catholic priests, in circumstances where it's a choice between mother and child dying in childbirth, insist that the child must always be saved at the mother's expense, then that may well cause conflict even if this is not in fact an accurate summary of what Catholic teaching is on the point.

I reckon you might be onto something Sirius. The only thing I'm thinking is that surely the couple will talk, discuss their beliefs. But will they both listen?

[girlyswot]

Well, at least the thread has shown that there really is a potential source of conflict between Protestants and Catholics! ;)

[angeliz2k]

Well, at least the thread has shown that there really is a potential source of conflict between Protestants and Catholics! ;)

And the fact that the differences in religion would be enough to spark whatever conflict Coeed would like to have.

BTW, Marina Snow, I happen to think this is a great place to get information. If you don't, feel free not to post or visit.

[RichardB]

Get off this thread, Marina.
If she stays, Cooee might get some good lines for the hidebound Catholic priest who finds out about the affair and threatens to excommunicate the lover under his jurisdiction.

[girlyswot]

Cooeedownunder, you might try asking this (or similar) questions in the Christian forum (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=40). They have a lot of very helpful and knowledgeable contributors and the discussions are very carefully and sensitively modded so that this sort of mudslinging doesn't happen.

[cooeedownunder]

Yes, there is another thread for debating religion but frankly I am a little dumbfounded about someone who wants to find factual (I assume?) information for a manuscript and who posts the question on an Internet forum. Especially when they have access to the information through their parish priest or library. If you want your manuscript to be taken seriously, don't you want to be completely accurate?

Your question has already brought up false information about The Holy Virgin Mary and why Catholics pray to her. It has sparked an error about the founding of Protestanism, as well as a false idea of 'the only differences' because the differences are endless. You might want to get your research from a more reliable source.

In addition, there is a difference between belief and facts, between opinion and facts. People can have their own opinions until the cows come home but it won't change facts.



You see? You used the word "perception." People's perception has zero to do with historical facts.

Your question was What is the difference between Protestents and Catholics? - If you want to write an accurate novel and be taken seriously about its contents, then you ought to research in the right places.

Marina,

I posted the question here because I was looking for a sounding board and I find AW an excellent place to generate ideas and the diversity in the members invaluable.

I am a Catholic and I don't have all the same beliefs as other Catholics - all Protestents don't have the same beliefs as each and we all have various degrees of faith. My charachters are very likely to be the same and may not necessarily know the complete role the church has had in history or politics.

I know why I pray to to who I do regardless if it is Mary or the Lord directly - but I am very curious what others think - their perceptions do not have to be acurate but their opionion. For centuries people acted without knowing or understanding each other, that to me is a little more acurate than having my charachters understand each othe fully.

I just need to understand.

[cooeedownunder]

I'm not quite sure why you think that this statement reflects so badly Luther; it's not a particularly great leap to it from what Christ says in Luke 23:43. But, more to the point, it's a passage which is open to a great deal of interpretation as to what Luther meant, and with regard to what the OP was looking for, namely sources of conflict between Catholic and Protestant, it seems to me that one of the biggest sources of conflict is going to stem from what members of one group have been taught to believe the other side believes, whether they do in fact believe it or not. So if, for example, the Protestant has been taught that Catholic priests, in circumstances where it's a choice between mother and child dying in childbirth, insist that the child must always be saved at the mother's expense, then that may well cause conflict even if this is not in fact an accurate summary of what Catholic teaching is on the point.

Yes, this is what I feel, especially after this conversation.

[cooeedownunder]

I reckon you might be onto something Sirius. The only thing I'm thinking is that surely the couple will talk, discuss their beliefs. But will they both listen?

Hopefully they won't listen to the last page :)

[cooeedownunder]

Cooeedownunder, you might try asking this (or similar) questions in the Christian forum (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=40). They have a lot of very helpful and knowledgeable contributors and the discussions are very carefully and sensitively modded so that this sort of mudslinging doesn't happen.

Thank you for that :)

[pdr]

you've seen more than enough, cooee, to understand that the differing forms of Christianity are due to interpretation.

The major official difference between Catholics, Anglicans and Presbyterians/Methodists/Baptists is the communion service. For Catholics the wine and wafer/bread become the body and blood. For Anglicans they are a spiritual representation bringing Christ's presence to the communion, and for Presbyterians/Methodists/Baptists et al the communion service is a simple memorial service.

Who is correct? It depends upon interpretation.

[ishtar'sgate]

I have been trying to find something that would cause internal conflict between my charachters based on their beliefs, but all in all they seem extremly similar. I have been trying to work out a way that their Religious beliefs would keep them apart.


H-m-m, this train has gone off the track somewhat. I tend to look for something dramatic to create rifts. One thing that occurred to me was an experience by your Catholic of stigmata (although more reported among women than men, the first documented case was from a man) If he shows her he has received the bodily marks of the crucifixion or feels excruciating pain in the location of Christ's wounds, his Protestant lady would likely be quite horrified. It would seem scary and supernatural and if it got around the town could cause quite a lot of havoc. The Catholics would support the young man and the Protestants would warn the young woman away from him.

[cooeedownunder]

you've seen more than enough, cooee, to understand that the differing forms of Christianity are due to interpretation.

The major official difference between Catholics, Anglicans and Presbyterians/Methodists/Baptists is the communion service. For Catholics the wine and wafer/bread become the body and blood. For Anglicans they are a spiritual representation bringing Christ's presence to the communion, and for Presbyterians/Methodists/Baptists et al the communion service is a simple memorial service.

Who is correct? It depends upon interpretation.

Yes, I read a document yesterday from an 1800s lecture which was about these differences and how we interpet the Bible differently. I found it excellent and the site itself has some useful oroginal or transcribe documents and information also related to Anglican religion around the word including Australia

http://anglicanhistory.org/neale/prots.html

[cooeedownunder]

H-m-m, this train has gone off the track somewhat. I tend to look for something dramatic to create rifts. One thing that occurred to me was an experience by your Catholic of stigmata (although more reported among women than men, the first documented case was from a man) If he shows her he has received the bodily marks of the crucifixion or feels excruciating pain in the location of Christ's wounds, his Protestant lady would likely be quite horrified. It would seem scary and supernatural and if it got around the town could cause quite a lot of havoc. The Catholics would support the young man and the Protestants would warn the young woman away from him.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

After being supplied much useful information I now need to determine how far to delve into this.