Ideas are free?

[Newguy1428]

Hi, I just finished posting on the upublished vs published copyright thread and thought that "ideas are free" needs some discussion.

First a copyright is properly named. It reserves the right of the author to make copies of their work. Consumers are generally granted the right to make one copy for personal use, not for sale.

The biggest danger to copyright holders is someone takes part or all of you work, puts their name on it and sells it. That is infringement. The second, is somebody keeps your work intact with your name on it and sells it, that's piracy.

The biggest concern for newcomers to copyright has nothing to do with copyright. It is about ideas. Ideas are valuable. Ideas are free. People expect ideas to be free, except when they are their own and can make them money.

A great example are the books "You give a Moose a ..." The author had an incredible idea. Maybe it was copied from someone else? Without this idea the book would sell as well.

So, new writers who are learning all the rules of writing and publishing should hang on to their little charms. The ideas that maybe should wait for your skills to catch up. If you get rejection after rejection, work on your skills. And don't be surprised if you see your ideas show up in print with other people's names on them with different characters in different situations. Good news travels fast.

Try other people's ideas. They're free.

[Matera the Mad]

Ideas also spring up independently in different mind at the same time -- because we are all exposed to the same cultural influences.

Ideas are free because they are so dirt-cheap.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/matera/drop/ideas.jpg

[James D. Macdonald]

Ideas are a dime a dozen. No, that's overpricing them.

That's why we get so tired of someone coming up and saying, "I have a great idea for a book! You write it and we'll split the money...."

[NeuroFizz]

Ideas are gasoline. They are nothing without an engine, four (or two) tires, a steering mechanism, and seats for passengers. And all of that is useless without a destination.

[BenPanced]

all ur ideaz are blong to mee

[Newguy1428]

all ur ideaz belong to mee

How about this idea ____ ___ _____ ______ ___? Isn't it great? Betcha didn't think of that one?

Off to illustrate my books. Good luck with getting advice on your writing projects.

[MsJudy]

I'm not at all sure I understand your point. Are you saying we should all be afraid of other people "stealing" our ideas, and therefore shouldn't tell anyone else about them? Or are you saying that an idea by itself isn't worth anything until it's turned into a product?

I'm just not sure what we're talking about here. Or why.

[Viking Horse]

I'm not at all sure I understand your point. Are you saying we should all be afraid of other people "stealing" our ideas, and therefore shouldn't tell anyone else about them? Or are you saying that an idea by itself isn't worth anything until it's turned into a product?

I'm just not sure what we're talking about here. Or why.

I just assumed he was trying to weed out the competition by frightening us all. I'm on to you, Newguy1428...I'm on to you.

[Bufty]

Here today -gone tomorrow.

[BenPanced]

I think it was the age-old "everybody's out to get me" rant of the misinformed and uneducated that pops up from time to time.

[MsJudy]

I think it was the age-old "everybody's out to get me" rant of the misinformed and uneducated that pops up from time to time.

That's what I suspected, too. but I always wonder if I'm just being my usual snarky self.

Anyway...

ideas are free about the same way that lunch is free.

You always get what you pay for.

[wyntermoon]

What the? Who let this fella in KidLit? No, Ben, I don't mean you.

[Newguy1428]

As for the name calling that prevails on these forums, you call me paranoid and imply that you are open-minded. But if there was ever anyone who was open minded they would never call anyone paranoid. They would look to discover the reasons, however strange or inept the arguments may seem at first.

Do like that? This argument works for all name calling. Those pompous name callers--I don't mean you. I mean those others: )

Or are you saying that an idea by itself isn't worth anything until it's turned into a product?

I'm just not sure what we're talking about here. Or why.

Close. The question began with posting work in shared forums and applies to submitting book proposals. New authors are afraid their ideas will be stolen. The answer is they very well may and that is what agents and publishers mean when they ask you to tell why you are the right one for the book. They'll just look for someone, don't take this out of context, who presents the idea better. Most artists today are very comfortable with appropriation. With the advances in media, we can browse through an incredible amount of ideas.

So how do you copyright your ideas? You can't. The best course of action is to is to develop your skills and product until you are ready to copyright. Copyright is the best defense against someone using your work without permission or to pirate it. This idea gets lost in discussions.

In answer to your question, an idea is worth everything and should be protected until the product is published or as in the case of the famous soft drink, Coke, protected forever. Most people don't know that company secrets are the power of many companies. Writing seems to be different, but I am not sure I want to send my best ideas to major publishers unless they are in my best, most professional writing. Thanks for the practice. I need it.

[Bubastes]

The formula for Coke is not an idea: it's a fully-executed formula. As others have noted, ideas are a dime a dozen (if that). The value is in the execution, not the idea. I deal with intellectual property every day in my day job and come across bazillions of ideas, most of which end up being worthless because of faulty or non-existent execution. Writing is no different.

[Mr. Anonymous]

While I would disagree with the prevailing wisdom that ideas are borderline worthless because everyone has em' I would like to point out two things.

1. If you think you've got a bestselling pulitzer prize winning never before done idea, chances are good that you're flattering yourself.
2. Execution of the idea is more important than the idea itself. A great idea with sloppy execution will never be published, but a decent idea with great execution probably will (but you already realize this.)

I don't think anyone here meant to insult you, but authors can be a proud bunch, and the insinuation that we go around stealing one another's ideas is not a pleasant one (neither is the insinuation that publishers and agents go around doing this.) I admit, other works can sometimes inspire me, but that's a completely natural process, and one that's been going on as long as people have been telling stories.

[Sage]

I have always been cool with the whole "you can't copywrite an idea. Don't worry about posting it here. Ideas are a dime a dozen." But I have to admit, just this week I had two conversations with agents about how original the concept of my novel is--but that the way I executed it needs work. Both the agents were willing to work with me (one was offering right then, the other wanted to see revisions, then might offer) based primarily on this great concept. One of these agents told me how she saw authors with many published books who can't come up with a fresh idea and how bored she could get with them.

I don't think the average writer is looking to steal ideas either, and I've certainly shared on here (SYW, query letter, wrote about it all over the YA forum), but saying that a good idea alone can't land you an agent isn't 100% true.

[Newguy1428]

Thank you Sage.

Bubastes, I am just talking best ideas. In my opinion, the best debate about ideas was between Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla. Edison claimed success came form hard work and Tesla claimed it was from good ideas. Oddly enough, Edison's light bulb became a symbol of good ideas.

[wyntermoon]

This thread is better suited to Roundtable than KidLit so I am porting it over there.

[ideagirl]

The formula for Coke is not an idea: it's a fully-executed formula.

Yes, and it's also not copyrighted--you can't copyright ingredient lists. What it is, is a trade secret. That means that it's protected by contract: Coke only reveals the formula to people who sign a contract swearing them to secrecy (so I assume that those Coke employees who need to know the formula in order to do their job are hired only upon signing of such a contract, and Coke employees who don't need to know the formula are never told the formula--and even they, I would bet, are hired only upon signing a contract that basically says "if I ever happen to learn the formula, I promise never to reveal it"). If Coke gets careless and shows someone the formula without having them sign a contract, poof, the trade secret is gone. But if someone who signed a contract ever reveals the secret, they are absolutely screwed--Coke will sue them to within an inch of their life.

But that's a side note. It's not relevant to us, since what we're doing is copyrightable, not coverable by trade secret protection. I just wanted to point it out so that people don't think that whatever is true of the Coke formula is true of their writing--that's not the case.

As others have noted, ideas are a dime a dozen (if that). The value is in the execution, not the idea. I deal with intellectual property every day in my day job and come across bazillions of ideas, most of which end up being worthless because of faulty or non-existent execution. Writing is no different.

Yep, I agree.

[ideagirl]

Thank you Sage.

Bubastes, I am just talking best ideas. In my opinion, the best debate about ideas was between Thomas Edison and Nikola Tesla. Edison claimed success came form hard work and Tesla claimed it was from good ideas. Oddly enough, Edison's light bulb became a symbol of good ideas.

And not to mention, you can see who was right in that debate by answering the following question: "Who was more successful, Tesla or Edison?"

I have the utmost respect for Tesla--he was a genius--but on this particular point, well, history speaks for itself.

[ideagirl]

I have always been cool with the whole "you can't copywrite an idea. Don't worry about posting it here. Ideas are a dime a dozen." But I have to admit, just this week I had two conversations with agents about how original the concept of my novel is--but that the way I executed it needs work. Both the agents were willing to work with me (one was offering right then, the other wanted to see revisions, then might offer) based primarily on this great concept. One of these agents told me how she saw authors with many published books who can't come up with a fresh idea and how bored she could get with them.

I don't think the average writer is looking to steal ideas either, and I've certainly shared on here (SYW, query letter, wrote about it all over the YA forum), but saying that a good idea alone can't land you an agent isn't 100% true.

It sounds like your agent believes that you can improve on the execution by putting in some more work, and perhaps by getting a bit of help (e.g. from an editor). So it's not just your fresh concept that sold her; it's also the fact that your execution isn't bad. If your execution were terrible, I doubt the agent would have any faith in your ability to improve it--why would anyone think a terrible writer could produce a good book just by working on it a little longer?

In short, it sounds like what got your agent interested in your book is not the great concept alone, but the combination of great concept + decent/somewhat promising execution. (Your execution may be better than "decent/somewhat promising," but I'd be really surprised if execution that was not at least decent and somewhat promising could ever land an agent).

[Virector]

I totally understand where you're coming from, Newguy1428-- I started a similar thread soon after I joined AW last year, concerned that people might "steal my ideas" and just like you, everyone was very quick to brush the issue aside and declare that ideas are just, y'know, ideas-- everyone has them.

At first I was rather upset by this notion, thinking it's unfair to think like that. My logic was, hey, so if I go to the SYW forums and grab someone's idea, re-write it and post the story up, would they smile and say, "Oh wow, you did a great job?" And that's pretty much the point at which I finally grasped what my AW peers were trying to tell me; an idea is just an idea-- what makes YOUR idea unique to YOU is how you execute it, how you tell your story, how you portray the characters etc. THAT is what makes an 'idea' unique, not the idea itself.

Someone can have the same concept for a story as you do, but at the end of the day, that person cannot do with your idea the same thing you you would do, and they probably won't even tell the same story.

Think about this: Person X writes a book about a young orphan who learns sorcery at a school of magic and discovers it's his destiny to defeat the greatest dark wizard who ever lived, learning things about his own past, and his future along his epic road to the final showdown with the dark wizard who murdered his parents many many years ago... OK, that's not worded perfectly, but most of you will probably recognize it as the basic premise for the hugely successful Harry Potter books-- now, looking at the way I put across the IDEA for the book, do you believe that if someone else wrote a book using the idea they 'stole' from Rowling that they would write exactly the same story you read in the Potter books? Certainly not. No need to argue about that. I can think of several ways in which to interpret that one idea, all spawning related, but very different tales.

So, I think I've made my point-- an idea that's really great can potentially become a phenomenal bestseller beloved by millions throughout the entire world, but ultimately, it goes down to how you told your story and the direction in which you carried your idea, or the direction in which the idea carried you, and it will NEVER be the same for any 2 authors, unless we are discussing plagiarism and not 'idea stealing.'

I know how you feel and I see where you're coming from with this Newguy1428, but don't worry about your ideas; worry about how well you're writing them.

[WriteKnight]

Don't confuse copyright, with trademark, patent and trade secret protections. There are different issues at work in each case.

Yes, ideas are 'free'. You own the copyright to the TANGIBLE EXPRESSION OF YOUR IDEA. If someone is inspired by your idea - to the extent that their expression can be recognized as containing significant elements of YOUR tangible expression - they you might have a case for copyright infringement.

It will all turn around whether or not judge and jury can determine if their is a 'significant' similarities in those expressions. Hence, the point of hiring an attorney.

Copyright laws are like locks. They won't stop a determined thief, they only keep honest people honest.

[ChaosTitan]

Close. The question began with posting work in shared forums and applies to submitting book proposals.

First, are you talking about proposals or submission packages? Because new authors, unless they are writing nonfiction, don't sell on proposal. A proposal is often three chapters and a synopsis, and these are what published authors use to sell new books.

A submission package, on the other hand, is often what is sent to prospective agents/editors.

New authors are afraid their ideas will be stolen. The answer is they very well may and that is what agents and publishers mean when they ask you to tell why you are the right one for the book. They'll just look for someone, don't take this out of context, who presents the idea better. Most artists today are very comfortable with appropriation.

I'm sorry, but....just no. NO. You are pretty much calling agents/editors thieves. Agents and editors don't give two bits about ideas, for goodness sake. Ideas don't sell books. Agents and editors do not go around passing along "awesome ideas I stole from some unknown" to their authors--their authors probably have more ideas of their own than they can write in a lifetime.

While I agree that no writer should ever submit for publication until they've reached an optimal level of skill (which is, frankly, difficult for a lot of us to know we've reached), your reasoning for it is ludicrous. And yes, it's paranoid.

Anyone who holds agents and editors is such low regard as to genuinely fear they'll steal ideas and pass them on to "better" authors...yeah, paranoid.

[dgiharris]

Lots of good advice here. I too started off thinking that my ideas were gold wrapped in platinum and encrusted with diamonds.

And then I tried to get published with shotty execution. Those super cool wiz-bang ideas did not save my smoking pile of crap stories from the rejection bin.

I shifted my focus to execution and broke through a year later with my first pub.

But the main reason why I was mistaken about ideas and in your case an agent or editor taking an idea and giving it to someone else is the following:

It takes a SHITLOAD of work to turn an idea into a book. It is not a trivial task.

So someone coming up to me with some 'idea' is not enough to make me abandon everything i'm doing and invest hundreds if not thousands of manhours on a project that may or may not bear fruit.

In short, I think many of us starting out over value 'Ideas' and under value the amount of 'Work' it takes to turn an idea into a useful product.

that is why ideas are a dime a dozen IMHO, because the work to turn an idea into a successful product (that is, the execution of the idea) is tremendous.

Mel...

[Newguy1428]

Lots of good advice here. I too started off thinking that my ideas were gold wrapped in platinum and encrusted with diamonds.

Hi Mel, I think you need to get back to your original ideas and show some respect for them. I have a few books that I have been working on for the last three years. They are golden. Send me your email in a private message and I will keep you posted on my progress. I am just finishing up the illustrations for one, I am an author illustrator, and sending the package out before the end of April.

Yes, there is hard work involved. Yes, it is possible to have an idea that few people appreciate other than yourself. But...when I read books on a subject that I am working on the ideas are mine. They are free for the taking. Unless you can figure out which pile of rubbish in my apartment contains my best, you'll have to wait until they are in print like everyone else. I don't need any help with my best and neither do you.

Here's a gem I wrote and illustrated in 2004 and copyrighted it. Man! Time flies. It's an old edit. Edit? Maybe I should say it's unedited? This Santa book is worth a million bucks!

http://www.booklab.com/Pages/PageContainer.aspx?cenum=ChooseTemplate&sw=800&sh=600&pcatid=37c31fca-be31-40c8-888f-ab2581726fe7

Newguy.

[Manix]

Lots of good advice here. I too started off thinking that my ideas were gold wrapped in platinum and encrusted with diamonds.

And then I tried to get published with shotty execution. Those super cool wiz-bang ideas did not save my smoking pile of crap stories from the rejection bin.

I shifted my focus to execution and broke through a year later with my first pub.

But the main reason why I was mistaken about ideas and in your case an agent or editor taking an idea and giving it to someone else is the following:

It takes a SHITLOAD of work to turn an idea into a book. It is not a trivial task.

So someone coming up to me with some 'idea' is not enough to make me abandon everything i'm doing and invest hundreds if not thousands of manhours on a project that may or may not bear fruit.

In short, I think many of us starting out over value 'Ideas' and under value the amount of 'Work' it takes to turn an idea into a useful product.

that is why ideas are a dime a dozen IMHO, because the work to turn an idea into a successful product (that is, the execution of the idea) is tremendous.

Mel...
QFT. I've got lots of ideas fleshing out, but it's getting them to make me some money that seems to be plaguing my life.:Headbang:

[Matera the Mad]

:ROFL: writing to make money :ROFL:

[Manix]

:ROFL: writing to make money :ROFL:

Hence the head-bashing-on-the-wall thing :roll:

[Cyia]

Here's a gem I wrote and illustrated in 2004 and copyrighted it. Man! Time flies. It's an old edit. Edit? Maybe I should say it's unedited? This Santa book is worth a million bucks!

http://www.booklab.com/Pages/PageContainer.aspx?cenum=ChooseTemplate&sw=800&sh=600&pcatid=37c31fca-be31-40c8-888f-ab2581726fe7

Newguy.


Assuming you're serious...

Next time, don't copyright the book before you send it out for publication. It's entirely possible that a publisher won't want to go with your illustrations, but hire an artist with whom they are familiar.

[Sage]

I went to a book signing by Jim Butcher, author of the Dresden Files last week. He talked about a bet he had had with a writer, regarding an argument they were having. Whether a bad idea could be saved with good writing or a good idea could be ruined by bad writing. He felt good writing trumped all.

Fellow writer said, Fine, write a novel with a bad idea I give you.

He said, How about you give me two bad ideas?

Fellow writer said he was tired of stories about lost Roman legions, so that was idea one. And the second idea? Pokemon.

The 6th of the books based on those ideas is being published this year.

[Izz]

Fellow writer said he was tired of stories about lost Roman legions, so that was idea one. And the second idea? Pokemon.

The 6th of the books based on those ideas is being published this year.But perhaps combining those two ideas turned it into a good idea that his above-average writing was able to turn into an above-average book(s).

[Sage]

But perhaps combining those two ideas turned it into a good idea that his above-average writing was able to turn into an above-average book(s).
But wouldn't it take a good writer to know how to turn the two bad ideas into a good plot?

[Izz]

But wouldn't it take a good writer to know how to turn the two bad ideas into a good plot?Yes.

And i'm sure when Dresden said 'good writing trumps all' he didn't just mean pretty prose. I'm sure he also meant the ability to manufacture setting and plot and character and emotional response.

A lot of aspiring writers think that 'good writing' is just being able to make a sentence read smoothly, and that an entire story can be based around an idea--which it can, but not the idea in its original form (see paragraph above :D). And an idea is a whole different thing to a plot, isn't it?