Submitting question

[Rhush]

I've heard that sometimes writers will submit a chapter of their ms to magazines as short stories in an attempt to generate interest in the entire ms. Is this right? Can you do this? If so, I was contemplating sub'ing to Realms of Fantasy, but I wasn't certain what the deal is with rights and all that. Can anyone help me out on this one?

[Jamesaritchie]

I've heard that sometimes writers will submit a chapter of their ms to magazines as short stories in an attempt to generate interest in the entire ms. Is this right? Can you do this? If so, I was contemplating sub'ing to Realms of Fantasy, but I wasn't certain what the deal is with rights and all that. Can anyone help me out on this one?

Some few magazines do take novel excerpts. Rights are never a problem, but by and large, most excerpts have to be stand alone stories in their own right.
In other words, when submitting a chapter as a short story, it must read like it's a short story, with a beginning, a middle, and an ending of sorts, and it usually must be a story the editor might buy even if it wasn't an excerpt.

I honestly don't know whether or not Realms uses excerpts, but I don't recall reading one therein.

And generally speaking, most novels excerpts published in magazines are from well-established writers.

There are always exceptions, and different magazines go about publishing excerpts in different ways, so you have to read guidelines carefully. You also need to read the magazine to see what it actually publishes, and how it pubishes it.

[azbikergirl]

I wouldn't know about submitting novel parts for publication in a magazine, but I know of several authors who write short stories involving characters from their universe to generate interest. I've written two such short stories and have one in progress, and plan to submit them when I'm done. I think doing that is a grand idea, and I like reading short stories related to novels I've enjoyed.

[Susan Gable]

Some few magazines do take novel excerpts. Rights are never a problem, .

Rights COULD be a problem, depending on what your novel contract with your publisher states. That's if we're talking about a novel already sold to be published.

If we're talking about an unpublished manuscript, again, it depends on the rights that the publishers want. I think some publishers are not interesting in anything that's been previously published in any form, including on the internet. But then, as always, I suppose it depends on how fantastic the story is. If it's *that* fantastic, they'll be willing to overlook some things or change what they "normally" do.

I don't know that I've heard of magazines buying the right to publish the first chapter of an unpublished novel. I've never heard of it done for a romance ms, but then, our markets for romance short stories keep going out of business. <sigh>

Susan G.

[Jamesaritchie]

Rights COULD be a problem, depending on what your novel contract with your publisher states. That's if we're talking about a novel already sold to be published.

If we're talking about an unpublished manuscript, again, it depends on the rights that the publishers want. I think some publishers are not interesting in anything that's been previously published in any form, including on the internet. But then, as always, I suppose it depends on how fantastic the story is. If it's *that* fantastic, they'll be willing to overlook some things or change what they "normally" do.

I don't know that I've heard of magazines buying the right to publish the first chapter of an unpublished novel. I've never heard of it done for a romance ms, but then, our markets for romance short stories keep going out of business. <sigh>

Susan G.

All I can say is that I've never seen rights be a problem, and that every pubisher I've dealt with loved the idea of a magazine appearance. Entire novels have been serialized in a magazine, and then published as a novel.

There's a difference in something that's been previously published, and something that is done to actually increase novel sales, which a magazine appearance usually does, particularly when it's just an excerpt.

But, yes, when it's an unpublished novel by a new writer, the excerpt will have to stand alone as a short story. In this case it's really little different than all the published short stories that are turned into novels, somethng I've done myself.

[Jaws]

Susan wasn't strong enough. Rights are a problem. They are a problem that very well may have a workable solution, but they are an upfront problem that affects copyright, trademark, and contractual aspects of publishing.
The copyright questions are both simple and complex. Although the smaller work, to be acceptable, does need to stand on its own, the order of creation can matter a great deal. I don't want to get into forward-looking and backward-looking registration issues here, but they do matter. Then there's the question of whether the smaller, first work might have been a work for hire (or had its copyright transferred) due to rapacious industry practices, in which case the author is not allowed to make a derivative work like the full-length novel. Too, the reverse might hold in the very rare case of a novel being properly a work for hire.
The trademark questions, unfortunately, have no simple component. The main one that authors probably need to concern themselves with at the submission stage is "If I have used somebody else's mark, do I have permission to do so in both works, or have other appropriate defenses for both works?" Permissions are not ordinarily granted on a blanket basis, and the scope and significance of the mark will probably vary between the two works.
The contractual issues begin with the "first rights" question; but they don't end there. There's also the question of exclusivity, option compliance, derivative and subsidiary rights… all of which can be managed through negotiation and disclosure, but they cannot be ignored. If you don't have a fair idea of what these issues are at the time you submit the works, you're not ready to submit the works.
Unfortunately, too many books out there by purported "writing gurus" neglect these problems entirely, especially those that focus on nonfiction (admittedly, not the subject of this forum… but some of those gurus also advocate corollary practices in fiction) and advocate "reuse, recast, resell" for everything. It's sort of a nice, catchy theory, but there are some significant problems with doing so blindly—problems that are more prominent in fiction than anywhere else.

[Jamesaritchie]

Rights simply are not a problem when pubishing a chapter from your novel in a magzine. Rights aren't even an issue. When you sell rights to a magazine, all you sell are First North American Rights, or possibly First North American Serial Rights.

These rights affect your novel in no way at all. They conflict with novel rights in no way at all, publishers could care less about them, and will, in fact, be grateful that the work is in the magazine because there's always a bleedover. . .people who read the chapter in the magazine are more likely to then go out and buy the novel. Book publishers LOVE it when a writer manages to have a novel excerpt placed in a good magazine.

I've been on this side of the business, and I can't say it any plainer. Rights are not a problem in any way, shape, or form. Zero, nada, zip.

And trademark has nothing at all to do with the issue. Nothing you write is trademarked until and unless you go through the process of applying for a trademark. And even if you do this, you will own the trademark. And no writer is going to use someone else's trademarked material in his own fiction. It just doesn't work this way. Your novel had better be your novel.

Trademarks simply play no part whatsoever in the process of first publishing a chapter of your novel in a magazine, and then publishing the novel.

Nor do any of the subsidiary rights, derivative rights, or any other form of rights apply to the very easy and straightforward process of having a chapter from a novel published in a magazine.

Really, this is not something out of the ordinary. Novel chapters are published in many, many magazines, particularly literary and mainstream magazines, on a regular basis, and any publisher loves the devil out of it. Having a chapter of your novel published in a magazine, if you can swing it, is a huge boost to you, a super plus for the publisher, and a selling point for the magazine.

Th rights in your novel contract are something to look at carefully, which is why it's dumb to go about it without an agent, but when talking about publishing a chapter of the novel in a magazine, rights are not only NOT a problem in any way, absolutely none of the rights involved conflict with each other at all. Period.

[jules]

Surely in order for a story or novel to be "work for hire" you'd have to be approached by the publisher who would then ask you to write something specific for them which you have not already written? This is clearly not the situation we're talking about here.

[Jaws]

:mad: With due respect to Mr Ritchie, he doesn't handle litigation in this area. I do. I have personal experience handling at least six of the things he claimed "can't" or "don't" happen, and my research shows a helluva lot more out there. What I think he means is "shouldn't," not "isn't"; but that distinction is the difference between getting sued and not getting sued. It's also the difference, in some instances, between "published" and "not published," because there is more than one publisher out there that actually does terminate contracts when these sorts of things come to light later in the process. /:mad:

Jules, it's much more complicated than that. The copyright statute doesn't allow one to make just anything a work for hire, unless one is an employee writing within the scope of one's duties (that is, a janitor at Disney's script is not WFH). A book-length work of fiction is not one of the things that is supposed to be treated as WFH under the definition in § 101, so at least in theory only employees are stuck with this problem. However, a "contribution to a collective work" might be.

[James D. Macdonald]

Honesty is the best policy.

Be right up-front with everyone concerned, talk with them in advance, and only deal with high-end places. That should keep you out of most trouble.

[Rhush]

Thanks everyone! I'm feeling a bit dizzy... but thanks. Ha. :idea:

[JennaGlatzer]

Don't mean to pick on James R., but as a general "rule" for anyone who's not a publishing lawyer here, please be a lot less absolutistic (use phrases like "should" or "usually" instead of flat pronouncements of "is") when you're getting close to a legal issue such as rights.

James, I think you're right that most publishers would have no problem with having a mag print an excerpt, but the fact that rights have not been a problem in your case does not mean that rights are not a problem in any case.

[Rhush]

Thanks for helping clarify, Jenna.:)

[brokenfingers]

Jaws,

I'm confused by your repeated use of the term "work for hire". Are you saying that if you submit an original work of fiction to a magazine and you sign a contract giving them a one-time right to publish it in North America in their magazine, it is considered a "work for hire"?

Also are you saying that you are aware of an actual occurrance where an author had a magazine publish an original short story that later became a chapter of a full-length original novel and the publisher refused to publish the same novel because a chapter of it had been published in an issue of a magazine?

[write4details]

Jaws is presenting an over-reactive, litigation-happy scenario. (Go figure--he's a lawyer)

In point of fact the issues he brings up are almost never a problem and can be avoided merely by attention to what rights you are assigning.

First of all...the standard magazine contract is not for "first rights" which can have heavier meaning in other areas. They are for "first SERIAL rights"...the right to be the first to publish in a periodical. Most of these assignments are pretty standard...if you have questions, ask for a contract.

Second, the idea of selling something previously written and having it considered "work for hire" is just nuts. "Work for hire" has a definition and a piecework sale is very definitely not part of it. If you are writing a column for a magazine, that might come into question. Again...your contract spells that stuff out. A sale is not work for hire. Would Jaws consider his wife a prostitute because he gives her money?

Third, what motivation would there be for a magazine to impede publication of your novel? Think about it. They get a "free ad" in the form of a "portions previously published in Regional Ripoff magazine under the title "Piece of My Damn Novel".

And watch, Jaws will have a reply to this (lawyers always do...and they always see a niche for themselves in any possible situation) But don't take him seriously. You are seeing information here from writers and editors who have had experience with this stuff (this post included). Don't let some ambulance chasing stampede you into or away from common, beneficial practices.l

[maestrowork]

If you haven't sold your "first serial right" then I think you're okay... Read your book contract and consult a lawyer if you must.

Now if you sell a short story first, then later use it as a chapter in your novel... I will let the lawyers answer that question.

[Cathy C]

My only comment would be to not sell something that's not yours to sell. You didn't state in your post whether your novel was already published. If it is, then read both the "Grant of Rights" paragraph, as well as "Subsidiary Rights" paragraph. You're looking for language like, "Author exclusively grants to Publisher the right to use all or any portion of the Work in the English language in newspapers, magazines and other periodicals, whether in one or more parts, before the date the Work is first available for sale to the Public in book form, yada, yada, yada." If this language (or some version similar) exists in your book contract and it is NOT MARKED OUT, then the publisher owns these rights and you'll have to obtain its permission before you offer it out to a mag.

OTOH, if you have NOT published the novel, then you need to remember to check what rights the magazine publisher is requesting. First Serial Rights or First North American Rights are the standard for 99% of the print magazines out there, but some of the smaller ones and especially e-zines request all rights, which will later be a problem when you do find a publisher. Once again, you can't sell rights you don't have and even a chapter could be an issue if you've sold away the rights to it. If everything is hunky-dory, you'll just need to change the contract when you sell the book to remove the First Serial Rights, because it's already been sold to the magazine.

Yeah, yeah -- I'm a law-type too. But I also have novels and magazine articles to my credit, so I'm looking at all sides... :)