Define the Fatasy Genre

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

his may seem simple to you.

How do you define Epic Fantasy, from urban, mainstream and so on? Is not an ancient Historical Fiction Novel a Fantasy, as it lacks detials that can place its history into certianty?

Your thoughts, please...

[scribbler1382]

his may seem simple to you.

How do you define Epic Fantasy, from urban, mainstream and so on? Is not an ancient Historical Fiction Novel a Fantasy, as it lacks detials that can place its history into certianty?

Your thoughts, please...

My first thoughts are you need a serious spellchecker. :)

As far as "isn't this fantasy" and "isn't that fantasy", the idea that EVERY work of fiction is fantasy is an old one. You need to take the contemporary context into consideration. By that I mean, you can't look at a definition of fantasy from 1860, and then look at the novels labeled "fantasy" today and hope to make any real sense of it. If everyone in the industry says for something to be fantasy today it needs certain specific trappings and tropes, there's really no point in arguing about it. Unless the point is not to debate for a purpose, but simply to debate for the sake of debating.

As far as the various flavors of fantasy in today's market, I'll leave that to someone who can better comment on it. Just remember that a LOT of these labels are simply hooks made up by sales departments that need a hook to hang things on. The lines tend to be smoky, to say the least.

[Hummingbird]

If you put this in the Fantasy Forum, you may get more help. :)
I've never actually thought about the different types of Fantasy. I think Epic Fantasy is one of those that take a long journey. Maybe? Hm.. Something I really need to look into. I'm trying to be a fantasy novelist, but I've never thought about what type I could be writing.
Well, that sounds like something fun. Here's a question from me to anybody. ;)
What is considered 'Light Fantasy'? Thanks!

[LightShadow]

Fantasy can be fairy tales, Swords and Sorcerers, Incarnations of Immortality, Stephen King's Eyes of the Dragon, or Disney. Too Broad. My books are plot driven with some paranormal or fantasy elements, so I call them Mainstream, because a book that his geared toward a wider audience with cross-over readers and can't quite pinpoint a specific genre is exactly that.

[Marcusthefish]

I'll take a quick shot. Epic fantasy is defined by its most common elements, popularized by Tolkien in The Lord of the Rings. They are: a setting with more-or-less medieval-level society, functioning magic, and a variety of monsters and intelligent non-human races, usually drawn from myth; a sweeping, action-oriented plot involving the struggle (usually a war) between good and evil; and a magical quest that decides the outcome.

Not sure what you mean by ancient historical fiction (like Clan of the Cave Bear?), but I'd say it's not really fantasy--at least genre fantasy--unless there are supernatural elements.

MTF

[zornhau]

It's to do with publishing categories and the implicit contract with the reader.
>Is not an ancient Historical Fiction Novel a Fantasy
> as it lacks detials that can place its history

Assuming you mean so ancient and lo-tech, with such a generic culture that there are no real clues to location and culture: then, potentially.

Since historical novels use real settings, they seem to have much more leeway over setting up the society and context than do modern fantasy novels.

I care about the details of 14th-century Cyprus in ways that I will never care about your personal magic kingdom, no matter how cleverly worked out. (In a similar way, I actually enjoyed the technobable in Clancy's Red Storm Rising because I was learning about real weapons systems.)

However, it's usually clear to which genre a book belongs. Rivets, science and technology - SF. Prw 1800 tech, magic, wierd conspiracies and hand to hand combat - Fantasy.

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

Well, I can surely see that this topic could be debated for a long time.



I do know about publisher categories, (i.e. stating they do not accept Epic Fantasy, Faire Fantasy…etc). However, having said that, what defines the true epic’s? Yes, “The Lord of the Rings”, ultimately defined what we know as Epic. But others have compounded on that, Terry Brooks, Goodkind, Thompson, and so many more.



From what I have seen, heard, and know, Epic Fantasy has a huge fan base.



But let’s take another route. My question in Historical Fiction to fantasy is quite broad, so ill dumb it down. Magic, as far as what we know of through historical research, was widespread during the early B.C. Years, (mentioned literally in the bible, as well, for those who take its words as fact, or close to.)



So if you wrote, say, an epic in Babylon, would that be a fantasy, or a historic? Its just a question, I’ wondering how to query the agents, what may have a better spin, I cant prove or disprove that this didn’t happen, but I can, and usually do, lean on the side of caution.



Perhaps there the same, and in that marketable as such, a book to bridge the gap.

[CalicoBean]

So if you wrote, say, an epic in Babylon, would that be a fantasy, or a historic?

My understanding is that it would be historic, unless it involves magic or supernatural beings or anything that could not happen in the world as we know it.

Here's a page of definitions of fantasy literature:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oi=defmore&q=define:Fantasy

The common thread is that fantasy lit takes place in a world where events happen or beings exist that could not in the natural world.

[CalicoBean]

My question in Historical Fiction to fantasy is quite broad, so ill dumb it down. Magic, as far as what we know of through historical research, was widespread during the early B.C. Years, (mentioned literally in the bible, as well, for those who take its words as fact, or close to.)

Oops, I skipped over this when I read your message.

I think if you create your Babylonian world assuming the magic written about in ancient texts was real, then you're writing a fantasy because you're dealing with something that falls outside of what's possible in our world. If your story assumes the magic written about was ancient people's perception of reality and their attempts to control their environment and others, but not truly effective, you've got historical fiction. I think. :)

[Zane Curtis]

How do you define Epic Fantasy, from urban, mainstream and so on?

For me, the answer is simple: I don't define fantasy. That's not my job, and I'm eternally thankful for that. Every minute spent considering and arguing over the subject is a minute irretrievably lost.

As a writer, I feel it's my job to write the best novel I possibly can, and write it using whatever source material my sub-conscious mind provides. If that means there's a dragon in it, then so be it. If that means it has no recognisable genre tropes at all, then that's okay too.

The minute... the very nanosecond you start to think you have to do something because of the genre, or that you can't do something because it's not the genre, then you've lost. You're not writing the very best novel you can anymore; rather, you're allowing the committee of genre policing to write your novel for you.

There are any number of people who want to tell you what you can and can't write. Are you going to let them tell you?

[CalicoBean]

My take on this was that Jonny is asking for a definition of fantasy because he's trying to decide the best approach with a query (Jonny Mac, please correct me if I'm wrong!) I agree that when one sits down to write a story, it's good to write the story you want to write and not worry about how it will be categorized and marketed later. At some point, though, after the story is written, it is helpful to have an idea what genre it best fits in order to submit it appropriately.

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

Callicobean is absolutely correct.

I have finished my MS, and it is written true to the story and not to a genre. While it does not take place in Babylon, it does possess a lot of the same Historical Fiction aspects. But it has the Fanatical backbone of a working Fantasy story.

So I query the agent, give him a synopsis and outline and say that it’s a fantasy story, he may not like it due to the fact that it does not compete well in the genre. Maybe I market it as an ancient historical fiction, and maybe that works. (But due to the fact that there is very little recorded about this time period, keeping it accurate may be a bit of a stretch.

The thing as writers we have to be able to do is not just write, that’s the easy part. Its sell that idea, (like a movie pitch…etc). That means understanding our audience. No one will take me seriously if I senselessly query agents without research. My story may not appeal to the Epic Fantasy crew, and like wise not to a real Historical buff, but I do believe that by maintaining the boundaries, I have found a way to bridge the gap.

Maybe that in itself is the market hook.

[jules]

I think the border between the two will vary with readers, and as much of it is the tone of your writing as the subject you're writing about.

As an example, consider Valerio Massimo Manfredi's novel "Spartan". I (and the publisher) call this historical fiction; it is set in a well-researched, real historical setting, and revolves around real events. It is worth noting, however, that there are a few points in it that push it towards being fantasy: the protagonist has a prophetic dream early on, and there is a scene with an oracle making fairly specific prophecies that turn out true. But these are unimportant elements that don't detract from the general historical nature of it.

Other authors put more emphasis on such elements; Christian Jacq's Ramses series is also listed as historical fiction, but I'd class it as fantasy because it relies much more heavily on magical explanations of what's happening.

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

That may be true, what you have said aboutheavy magic and a lack of a good plot. I can only hope that my story will hold its candle high when it comes under the scrutiny of some readers. (and i know it will).
Thanks to all of you who posted responses. Foe now, its back to the revisions.

Jonny Mac

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

For starters, i should review my own posts before i submit them. LOL