*sigh*

[Tileus]

I find myself in a bit of a quandry friends.

The story I am writing...it is one of those rare things where everything melds so nicely in your mind, you have a clear view of the high points and how your characters will reach them, and the only thing that keeps the words from flying onto the paper fast enough are the limits of human fingers. Well, rare for me anyway, as I ofen suffer from terrible writer's block.

I'm having trouble though.

For one thing, chapter length. I know where I want my chapters to cut off, but they are so SMALL in my mind, even though they look deceptively large on the 1 inch margined 12 point Courier computer screen. Is wrestling with chapter length really a big worry, as long as the length of the work as a whole is acceptable?

Also, I only have two potential beta readers. My parents...my mother will say my work is good and occassionally point out something she thinks doesn't make sense, but that's about it. My father is a skilled writer and is likely to spot technical as well as story flaws, but that's it. I have no one I can turn to who has true novel experience.

I live in the middle of nowhere and have no transportation, so I can't find an in person group to join, and even if I was mobile, am not likely to find a group like that anywhere nearby. What should I do? Are there places where I could actually submit an entire manuscript for online critique? Even if there were, should I even risk putting my entire work out there for potential theft?

I'm not arrogant/confident enough to think that my work is so good that everyone will fall all over themselves to steal it you understand, but I am extremely cynical/paranoid.

After reading that last thing I wrote, I wish to clarify, that is not to say I am not proud of the work I can do, I just, through other experiences, have little confidence that others will find it worthy of reading.

[katdad]

Don't worry about chapter length -- that's a minor item. As you proceed with your book, you'll be better able to judge whether to combine several short chapters or keep them as is. But that's a very small consideration.

Chapters usually contain a single "scene" or event, although several linked scenes can also comprise a chapter.

My novels are private detective fiction, which in its particular genre has somewhat shorter chapters than other genres. I made no attempt to adjust the chapters and they seemed to fit nicely with the story at hand.

Your experience will grow as you continue writing, and during a final pass through the book, after it's finished, you will see where chapters may be divided or combined. Don't give it a moment of worry at this stage.

Regarding beta readers, are you actually describing alpha readers or are there other people who are reading your stuff first?

Parents aren't the best critics because they will either be too harsh or too lenient, and cannot do a good job of staying impartial.

Perhaps your job keeps you from moving to a city? If so, you'll have to rely on the internet as your contact. Or try local colleges or community colleges, because many support evening classes for writing fiction and such. Or just get acquainted with students and faculty there. If you take a night course in writing that will allow you to network.

My suggestion would be to move out of the wilderness and find a job in a larger city, and get some wheels, but that may not be feasible for you.

As for potential theft, just copyright your work first, before you send out major chunks of it -- you can do this easily and cheaply, and you'll then have proof of your original writing.

Remember that it's extremely rare for someone to actually steal a whole novel. If it gets published you can sue the publisher for lotsa bucks. Just make sure you have documented proof that you wrote it first.

And don't be too certain that you actually NEED to have beta readers. Aside from finding mechanical errors, other people will not necessarily be the help you need. If they like your writing, so be it. If they don't, it's probably not something they like or is in their style choice.

Remember that it's YOU who are writing the novel. If you can read published well known authors whose writing is in the same genre as yours, and your writing is similar, you're okay. All you now need to do is develop skills, and you do that by writing and studying the writing of others.

For example, I began writing private detective fiction because I really enjoy reading it. I read Parker and Pronzini and all the others, decided "Hey, I can do that!" and started.

I created a specific protagonist who's a bit different from the standard cliche private eye, but still in the genre. Then I plotted out a story and started writing. I later rewrote and expanded the book, and now I'm signed on with an agency who is representing me for both completed novels.

All this time, nobody at all was my alpha or beta reader. I let the agents do that. I got rejected a lot of times, and finally I landed an agency.

Good luck.

[Shai]

I've had similar experiences—a story idea comes to mind, it seems so cohesive and appears to have substance, and then I go to write it and it turns out there are actually giant holes in the plot. Points "C", "R", "U", and "D" are missing...

Anyway, chapter length: I used to worry about that too and over time found that it took too much time away from the actual writing to be fussing over where the breaks might go. Nowadays I just try to write. Get it all out onto paper and do the organizing afterwards. If you don't worry about where the chapter breaks might go you could end up surprising yourself by including developments for the story that you didn't know could be there because of the restraints you were going to place on yourself.

There are lots of places you can get a decent critique of your work. From what I understand you've posted in one such place already. ^^ If you're worried about someone potentially absconding with your work, maybe only have a chapter or two critiqued at a time.

[Tileus]

No, moving is not feasible, as I am quite literally trapped at home with my parents (long story) well, not long, just...grrr...lol

[TheNightTerror]

I never worry about the chapter length. Just write the damn thing down -- worry about everything else later. That's what I do, but then again, I have a short attention span when it comes to my stories. I normally have an idea for another story to write within a few months, so I don't stop to smell the roses. If it's any good, it's gotta be documented ASAP. :)

[ChunkyC]

Hi Tileus. I wouldn't worry about chapter lengths either. Just write. I know of one established pro, Tess Gerritsen, who said in an interview that she writes her first drafts without chapter breaks at all, just one long story. Once the first draft is finished, she goes back and figures out where the breaks should be. As you go, you'll figure out what works best for you, and for the story.

As for critique, you can always drop by our own Share Your Work forum and post bits for folks to comment upon. There's a set of guidelines there you should read through before posting anything.

Good luck!

[Vomaxx]

A chapter that is just perfect in your mind but which crumbles into a confused mess--or at least into a routine, banal collection of words--when you try to write it down is, I think, an experience common to us all. It certainly is with me. The trick seems to be just to write something down, then refine it several times until, perhaps, it seems somewhat as good as what was in your mind in the first place.

[Christine N.]

You might also join critiquecircle.com. You have to give crits to get them, but I always find that critting others' work helps me be a better writer.

[Maryn]

I suspect most people don't get much useful input from friends and family. Either they wouldn't know good (or bad) writing when they see it, or they do but wouldn't say anything negative about your work no matter what. Sometimes they can't see it's not so good because their fondness for you colors their judgment--which is very nice, but doesn't improve your writing a bit.

You need to find people who read in your genre to give you critique. Remote location isn't nearly the negative it used to be. In addition to critiquecircle.com, there's also critique.org, both well regarded, and lots of others that look good pop up on a google search. (Whether they are good is for you to check out.)

If you check Absolute Write's Writing Partners board, you will also find people seeking not only writing partners but critique exchange and at least one active critique group seeking new members.

By posting part of your work at Share Your Work here, you're showing your skill level and the nature of your work to potential critics. With luck, someone will find it interesting enough to want to see more, and will consider critique on a large scale.

Maryn

[veinglory]

Don't sweat chapter length. I often end up putting 3-4 chapters in a 'chapter' with scene breaks between them.

I do not allow my family to read my work, for various reasons. I use yahoogroups and forums to meet authors in my genre was skills as good as mine or better. I now exchange proofreading with a number of them and use yahoogroups to fill in any gaps (mainly groups of serious semi-pro writers).

[LightShadow]

Chapters always start small. Just get the info down now, and elaberate later. In turn, chapter length (and novel length) will grow.

[Aconite]

Are there places where I could actually submit an entire manuscript for online critique? Even if there were, should I even risk putting my entire work out there for potential theft?

If your work is SF or fantasy, you may want to look into Critters. You may want to look at their setup and guidelines even if you don't write SF, to get a feel for what an online critique group can do.

IMO, theft of your to-be-critiqued story is actually not as big a worry as inadvertantly using up your First Rights by posting it on a public site. That's one of the reasons you want to carefully check out any online critique group you're thinking about joining and make sure they have provisions for that kind of thing.

Good luck.

[Avalon]

There's also the Online Writing Workshop for Science Ficton, Fantasy, and Horror, where you can crit and be critted.

http://sff.onlinewritingworkshop.com/

[maestrowork]

Chapter length: Don't worry about it. Just write. You can later combine, rearrange, or whatever. A chapter is a logical collection of scenes. Sometimes it can be long, sometimes short. My longest chapter is about 3000 words long. My shortest about 300.

Betas: Don't you have friends? Trusted, close, critical friends? Friends who love you no matter what but will also be honest and critical if necessary. Someone who can tell you "this is crap" and you will listen even though you don't want to? If not, join an online, members-only crit group.

Theft: That's why you ask your most trusted friends.

[Liam Jackson]

Chapters? You guys use chapters??

[Aconite]

Chapters? You guys use chapters??

They're just a fad. It'll never catch on.

[Christine N.]

Yeah, they said the same thing about page number too, and look where we are...

[SeanDSchaffer]

For one thing, chapter length. I know where I want my chapters to cut off, but they are so SMALL in my mind, even though they look deceptively large on the 1 inch margined 12 point Courier computer screen. Is wrestling with chapter length really a big worry, as long as the length of the work as a whole is acceptable?


Have you ever read Dragonheart? It was written by Charles Edward Pogue, the man who wrote the screenplay for the movie by the same title.

One thing I noticed in reading the book was that most chapters were very short. Some chapters were literally less than 1/2 of a page in length. Nevertheless, they told the story well.

My feeling on chapter length is, let the story dictate how long its chapters are. If you've come to the natural end of a chapter, don't force it just to make it longer. Forcing the chapter length could actually hurt the telling of the story, and I don't think anybody wants to hurt the story they're putting such hard work into.

My humble opinion. I hope it helps.

:)

[BenMears]

"My mother is a fish."

That was a complete chapter of Faulkner's As I Lay Dying, and they gave him the Nobel Prize.

[E.G. Gammon]

And didn't Stephen King have a chapter with only one word in it? I remember reading about it in the 'Uncle Jim' thread but I don't remember where.

[Tileus]

Thank you all for your kind responses once again. While I do have friends, close friends, only two are what I would consider the "reading type", that is not an insulting comment, just by going by the vast majority of responses from friends of mine that they think reading is one of the most boring things in the world.In fact, since graduation I had lost touch with so many people I completely forgot the two I have in mind lol, although whether they can be trusted to be honest or not I just don't know. I'm so unsure about my work I probably wouldn't know if they thought it was great and were being honest anyway heh. Thank you all for the site addresses, I'll look into them, and continue to post more in the share your work setion here as well.

Man I'm glad I found this place.

[Word Slinger]

I wouldn't let chapters or chapter length worry you very much. As you have seen there have been examples previously stated where one sentence or even one word became a chapter.

Here is an example of the sometimes idiocy of writing: I live in the Los Angeles area, awhile back (within the last 12 months) I watched an interview with a self-published author. As a hard working novelist and freelance writer, I, like many here continually struggle to improve my writing skills, constantly self-critiquing my work, all the things we, as authors, normally do. Anyway I was freaked to say the least at this interview, the author of the book "How To Get Out of Debt and Stay Out" sold over 2000 copies. Here is what freaked me, the book is over 200 pages long and on each and every page is two words "Don't Spend". No other text than those two words, clever you might say,and you would be right, it was clever, humorous, and a simplistic bit of advice. At $12.95 a copy it is also a con and rip off. So, go figure! Television interview I couldn't believe it.

Back to the chapter issue, I just write my story. I write western/frontier genre' and I keep writing and when it feels right to call this an end to the chapter, so be it and start chapter "next". The flow of your story will tell you. It may be in a page and one half, it may be ten pages, it may be twenty. It really doesn't matter as long as you maintain the flow of the story.

Readers can be harshly critical, but they become the harshest critics with too much ebb and flow of a Fiction novel. They, mostly, like to get into the story, identify with a specific character and become one with your work. Chapters are but another mechanic of writing, I have written chapters with numerous (not too many) scene breaks because the issues did not, to me, justify a full blown chapter change. As you read your mss. nearing the final draft you will "feel" if the chapter should continue or is ending properly

[Word Slinger]

I forgot to add something. It happens. I am not sure because I just can't mentally nail it, but it was either Faulkner or Fitzgerald that wrote one chapter that consisted of one sentence. That sentence consisted of over 300 words, a full page and one half of a non-stop sentence. Editors and many Pro-writers today would come unglued if any of us tried that one...LOL In all, this just gives you the fact that there is no set standard for the length of a chapter. Remember in writing there are truely no rules, there are mechanics but really the closest thing to a rule is a good, well presented story.

[SeanDSchaffer]

When I was a boy, I remember watching the old version of 'Ripley's Believe It Or Not.' (You know, the one hosted by Jack Palance?)

On that show I remember a tidbit that Mr. Palance brought up about a novel submission that was rejected, not because the story was bad....but because the entire novel was one sentence long. Several hundred pages from start to finish, and not one punctuation mark until the end of the story.

I would normally say "I don't believe it," except Mr. Palance was holding an actual printout of the manuscript--dot matrix printed, if I recall correctly--so he could prove he wasn't making the story up.

But that, according to the host, was the only reason the manuscript was rejected.

Interesting side note, huh?

[Word Slinger]

A very good tidbit. I am only sorry I never saw that episode but I do remember the program.

[BlueTexas]

And didn't Stephen King have a chapter with only one word in it? I remember reading about it in the 'Uncle Jim' thread but I don't remember where.

I just read a chapter of his that was two words in The Waste Lands. There were some very short ones in The Eyes of the Dragon, too...a sentence, two words, one word...

[triceretops]

When in doubt about chapter length, or combining chapters, don't they use the transition "four space jump" or the three * * * to seperate scene or time changes? Aren't these called tansitions? Can somebody elaborate on when it is customary to use these devices? Can't this technique put two unrelated scenes in the same chapter? Editors are marvelous for knowing where these can go in your text.

Tri

[SeanDSchaffer]

When in doubt about chapter length, or combining chapters, don't they use the transition "four space jump" or the three * * * to seperate scene or time changes? Aren't these called tansitions? Can somebody elaborate on when it is customary to use these devices? Can't this technique put two unrelated scenes in the same chapter? Editors are marvelous for knowing where these can go in your text.

Tri


I can think of a couple books I've read with this type of thing in it. I actually use such a break in just about every chapter I write, although I try to keep a general theme throughout the said chapters.

But I'm unpublished. A good example of a published work using this style of scene break can be found in the book Nerilka's Story by Anne McCaffrey. The book is a supplement to one of the Dragonriders of Pern books--if I'm not mistaken, it has some backstory to Moreta: Dragonlady of Pern to it.

But the point I'm making is: I've seen several scene breaks within chapters of that book, signified by three asterisks (***) between scenes.

If I'm not mistaken, Uncle Jim talks about that briefly in the Learn Writing with Uncle Jim thread. He says to use a pound sign (#) to signify a scene change, two spaces below the end of one scene, and two spaces above the beginning of the next scene.