Institute of Children's Literature [Archive] - Absolute Write Water Cooler

Inspired

05-26-2005, 06:40 AM

I'm an ICL student and it's worth every penny. If I had to pay for the amount of resources, time and attention I'm getting from my instructor, I'd never be able to afford it. They do have a payment plan, if you like, but it costs less than the big conferences I've recently looked into - and lasts for much longer than a weekend!

I suggest you go to their website, and look around on the web, like I did. There are very few people that haven't loved the course. If you're already a great writer, then you will find it a bit beneath you. But, if you're a newbie and want to break into kid's magazine writing - it fits the bill.

Does this really look like it demeans writers? http://www.institutechildrenslit.com/rx/index.shtml

Would a fraudulent business put out a high quality children's writing publication?
http://www.childrenswriter.com/

Here are some official credentials: http://www.institutechildlit.com/credentials.htm

Can you write without taking the course? Certainly! (But I know one children's book author who said the course took years off her learning curve!)

Do some people say it's not worth it. I've only heard of one. She was a good writer going into it and didn't have an instructor that fit her very well. Most people are newer to writing (have lots to learn) and get a good match with their chosen instructor. If you don't, all you have to do is contact Student Services. They will find someone who fits your style and needs better.

I've seen lots of people go from insecure newbie, to excited magazine writer, to confident book writer - because of that course.

Obviously, I like it a lot.

I can't imagine it being called a scam. No way.

Inspired

05-26-2005, 06:45 AM

I just wanted to add that even though I didn't care for their tactics, they do seem to have been around for a very long time.

They are a business, so I understand that part of it.

I think their print ads are a little - I don't know - scammish looking. I wish they would make them appear more professional.

Katiba

05-26-2005, 05:59 PM

I'm not a student at ICL, but I know several people who are, and they think it's fantastic. And isn't a scam when a company promises something and doesn't deliver? From what I understand, ICL doesn't promise to sell your writing, they offer courses which will help you improve your writing - basically the same as any other educational institution. Even Harvard doesn't promise you a job at the end of your degree! (And they charge a lot more than ICL.)

It sounds like their marketing tactics may be a little agressive - but that's a different issue. Many legitimate businesses have annoying or agressive marketing tactics. Just look at any ad on TV, or the daily credit card offers that land in everyone's mailboxes. To figure out if it's a scam, the question should be: Do they actually give me what they say they will in exchange for my fees? And from what I understand, they do. That makes them legit, at least in my opinion.

Inspired

05-26-2005, 06:23 PM

I'm glad you were mistaken. You gave me quite a worry.

I don't want to wrongly label a good thing.

pam

05-26-2005, 11:35 PM

the worst thing you can tell me is you are submitting your article as your assignment from Children's Institute.

Yes, this is not a very professional thing to say anyway. You don't want a magazine to think you didn't craft your story or article just for them. It sounds as if you are giving them "an assignment". It has nothing to do with the credibility of ICL.

ICL is what got me started and I definitely recommend it to anyone just starting out. You can read more about my opinion on my website (scroll down for ICL, but I also recommend another class as well--don't miss it!):

http://pamcalvert.com/for_children_s_writers

DragonTears

05-27-2005, 07:04 PM

Tish Davidson

05-28-2005, 12:15 AM

Thank you everyone for the valuable input! Ever since I had submitted my 'test' to them, and received a raving letter in return about the short story I wrote!

But do they ever turn anyone down based on the "test" or is it like those photography/modeling agencies that tell everyone their baby has potential to be a model or be on TV and needs a portfolio?

Inspired

05-28-2005, 06:07 AM

Tish,

From what I've heard they do use that test to "weed out" those who have very little potential. They can work with people quite a bit, so I doubt they turn many away. But, it would be a pain to try to teach someone basic spelling and grammar when you're supposed to help them become publishable.

I do know of people who've had to rewrite and resubmit lessons to their instructor, because they needed quite a bit of improvement. I don't think it happens very often, but they do try to maintain a certain standard.

dawn

05-30-2005, 03:45 AM

I've heard good things about ICL, but I've always been rather suspicous of their "test". I'm fairly sure anyone that takes it will pass. I think this because I took and "passed" the test when I was 12 (I'm 31 now) and then was hassled for about six months by them via mail. I finally scrawled "I'm only 12!" on a piece of paper and returned it in one of their envelopes. They left me alone after that.

CalicoBean

05-30-2005, 05:52 AM

I'm sure it's difficult to fail the test, but regardless, the ICL offers a good course. I took it back in 1998 when I was a complete newbie (which I think is the best time to take it), and I learned quite a lot, including how to discipline myself to writing almost daily. The textbooks are good (at least they were in 98). Also good are the assignments, the feedback, and most especially for me, the deadlines!

I have heard that ICL instructors are told to make at least two postive comments on each assignment. I have no idea if this is true, though I did receive positive as well as constructive feedback on each piece I submitted. If it is true, I don't think it's such a bad thing. Newbies need a little encouragement along with the criticism. :Sun:

NatashaFX

06-01-2005, 03:58 AM

Note: Everyone passes their test! That's a sign right there. I entered the art one and the story one when I was a teen and got the "invite" to join. I couldn't draw then and still can't. Writing wasn't all that bad but at 15, how good could it have been. It's taken me years to perfect the craft and I'm still learning. I wouldn't waste the money. It's better to take a class from a local writer/teacher who has a proven track record. At least that way you have an opportunity to network and possibly get a referral for an agent etc. Doing it through the mail should send up "red flags". This is just my opinion and my experience.

Good luck.

Natasha
www.NatashaFX.com (http://www.NatashaFX.com)

Inspired

06-01-2005, 04:01 AM

Natasha,

All the teachers at ICL do pass the test of experience. They've all published numerous times. The course is good.

It has the appearance of being lower quality, but it's not. It is for newbies, though, not for advanced writers.

I don't think it's related to the drawing course, is it?

Brainerd T.

06-01-2005, 04:28 AM

I don't necessarily want to diss them, but I am a graduate of their writing course.

They are a business. They sell to the masses. They give you a sense of security while providing any real sense of achievement. Everyone passes the entrance exam. That is a signal right there.

I wanted to improve my writing skills. At the point I took their course, I was having a hard time financially. They did work with me. It took almost three years to pay them. They were ready to sue me. I answered their threatning letters tit for tat. I didn't want to profit from them, so I deliberately didn't finish the course until I paid for it.

The content was, well...... There is no such thing as a grade. You do the assignments. That's it. You pass. The critiques that were given to me, I said "Good grief. I knew that", but I let it slip.

They offer good advice, but the knowledge you could gain from a forum such as this is, in my opinion, just as good.

As I said, I don't mean to diss them, but think about it. A lot of money, a lot of advice. Do the assignments, and no matter how bad your writing is, you pass the course. There is no struggle to get a grade good enough to "earn" a grade. You just pass or quit. I was (am not) a quitter. I signed my name and I wanted to get what I paid for. They were willing to sue me even if I didn't finish the course.

I think any good Writer's Digest course, or even a Physical writer's Group (if you can find one) gives one all kinds of knowledge. I advocate reading everything in these forums. There's enough education here for anyone who's willing to soak it up.

However, they do deliver what they say they will. A course on writing. Myself, I didn't really learn that much, but I did learn. (somewhat)

But if money is tight, remember, it is a legally binding contract. They will sue.

Inspired

06-01-2005, 05:01 AM

That's interesting. (I mean it - not sarcastically.)

They have a "if you're not satisfied . . ." clause. Didn't that work? Yes, you pass, just like any other course - unless you want the college credit. But, I think if you go into it with little writing experience you learn a lot.

It sounds to me like you really knew more than the average person (me) who wants to write but doesn't know how to get started.

Didn't your instructor help you at all? The individual feedback I get is worth it. I don't have other places where I can get my pieces line-edited and lots of advice without paying.

I've heard of others dropping out of the course and picking it up years later without any problems.

Like you said, they are a business. So, some people are likely to get more or less out of it than others. And, yet they all have to pay the same amount.

I hope you've taken your experience and gotten a lot published. It sounds like you can do it without help.

(I don't mean to look like the ICL spokesperson here, but I do want to address the issues.)

Brainerd T.

06-01-2005, 05:20 AM

As I said, I don't mean to diss them. I had a good instructor. She did give me many insights. I don't fault them for anything. All I'm saying is "Keep your eyes open" and "If you want to learn something bad enough, there are resources under your nose you never dreamed of".

I have never been published. It is my fault. Being published is harder than writing. I'd rather write. It's what I do. It's part of me. Marketing is not. I write for the joy of it. My "pay" for 45+ years has been the smiles, the thank you's.

I've only recently tried to do something about the accumulation. It is truly overwhelming. I've never written TO the market. Marketing is very intimidating. It takes me all day to find the "perfect" market. Then, when I find it and submit, it's the perfect "wrong" market. (Examples: I submit a childrens piece, but they don't want any violence. Or I submit to children's but they don't want poetry)

I've written TO the person, usually myself. And people love it. Even ICL did.

What's important is that people get the help they need. Some people feel better by spending money. Some feel better by having a personal tutor.

lauram

06-01-2005, 09:56 AM

I finally scrawled "I'm only 12!" on a piece of paper and returned it in one of their envelopes. They left me alone after that.

:) That's pretty funny. I had the same suspicions though, because I took it when I was around 14-15 years old and passed.

I have toyed with the idea of signing up recently though. How much is the course?

cwgranny

06-01-2005, 04:07 PM

Good Morning,

I have written courses and worked for the Institute.

#1. They are not connected, IN ANY WAY, with the "draw bambi" art school. Different folks. No relation.

#2. Folks do fail the test. I happen to know without a doubt that they do. Also, if someone should be coached through the test but cannot write or isn't getting anything from the course, the instructor is told to tell the Institute and the Institute refunds the student's money. It happens. I've done it to students who weren't getting anything because they (1) couldn't or (2) wouldn't. I haven't done it often because the test does weed out folks can't handle the course pretty well.

#3. I honestly cannot imagine the Institute suing anyone since I know -- for a fact -- that the money back promise is real. If you didn't want to pay you could have complained about the quality of the course (clearly you had a chuck load of complaints) and you NOT ONLY would not have had to pay, you would have been given your money back. Naturally there is a time limit to when this can happen after you've finished the course but I know -- for a fact -- that they have refunded money; there's no excuse for paying if you hated the course so much.

#4 I know -- for a fact -- that if you don't like your instructor and he/she is telling you stuff you already know and doesn't seem to be helpful, you can have a new instructor. Zip. Just like that. No pain, no strain. No one breaks the instructor's legs or anything. I've had students ask for a new instructor (some folks don't like actually being told what's wrong and what they need to change to be published -- they wanted an instructor who said more good things than corrective things and they told the institute that. The institute gave them what they wanted -- they couldn't get college credit, of course, but the Institute wanted them to complete the course with joy, and some folks don't care about college credit.) So there is NO EXCUSE for having an instructor you don't get anything from. Not every two people mesh, but the key is to be proactive, not to sit through the whole course with an instructor who isn't helping you or giving you what you wanted. If you wanted a "tougher" instructor -- we're out there and the Institute would have happily given you one.

#5. The course doesn't give grades or passes or whatever. It's not high school. It's designed to improve your writing -- period. The students in the magazine course I teach, you only get a diploma if you produce work that I believe could get published. I have a lot of experience in magazines so if I believe it can get published -- it can. If it's obvious a student is not going to get to that publishable place -- I tell the Institute and they give back the student's money. That doesn't happen often -- it's very rare. My students work very hard and I'm very corrective. I only have 8 lessons to get them up to publication level so I don't mess around. But they have to put into it to get success. They must be proactive. Passive people aren't going to be happy in the course.

#6. I took the Writer's Digest course not long ago because someone else paid for it for me. If the class of students wasn't unhappy, they are an incredibly tolerant bunch because there was NOTHING, ZERO, ZIP, NADDA about improving their work for publication. The concept of publication wasn't brought up at ALL. And some of the folks were producing work that was not going to sell in today's market but the instructor NEVER ONCE told them that -- she looked only at things like grammar and minor writing style points. I expect some of the folks may have seen some improvement but if ANYONE was ready to be published at the end, it was because they were ready to be published at the beginning. And ALL, every single bit of the set instruction was cut and pasted from writing books readily available from any bookstore. So you were paying for that critique from the instructor -- and it wasn't cheap.

#7. Now having said all that. I would not have taken the Institute course in my early years. The marketing grossed me out. And it was expensive. And I was poor. So I got published the old fashioned way -- I collected rejection slips until I figured it out on my own. This was not a quick process but I'm pretty proud of it. I do know of multi-published authors (Verla Kay, for one) who took the Institute course and says it shaved years off the publication process. That's cool. Those years were already spent for me before I learned the nasty ICL marketing wasn't reflective of the course itself.

But out of all the ICL graduates I've heard online -- probably in excess of three dozen -- I have heard exactly two complaints. Both would have been solved with a change of instructor. In other words, both would have been solved by taking advantage of the options in place to prevent unhappiness, but the two people didn't want to 'make waves' or some such. Or maybe they just didn't know and didn't feel like calling the 800 number for the Institute to find out what they could do about being unhappy. So they decided to stick with it, be unhappy, and have something to grumble about. The Institute doesn't want unhappy students and they would RATHER have given you back your money. They gave it to other folks. So basically you screwed yourself out of all that money back...sounds like it wasn't the Institute you should be mad at.

As an ex-student, you can call the Institute and schedule a visit if you're ever up in CT. I know they'll be happy to show proof of the things you doubt -- like students who complained and got instructors who suited them better, students who didn't pass the test, and students who got their money back. They are serious about helping you be comfortable with what you got and understand what you're talking about.

gran

Brainerd T.

06-01-2005, 05:14 PM

cwgranny

It sounds as if your missive was directed at me. I think you misunderstand. I was never mad at anyone. I was never unhappy. However, I've been "taken" enough times that I was skeptical from the beginning.

The Institute always praised my work. At that point (early 1980), I had been writing for 30 years, but I had never shown it to anyone except a few friends.

I know what false praise is. I was sold a Sales Training Course in the 1970's because they told me my test scores showed I was "One point below genius". I didn't become ecstatic, I became skeptical. I don't doubt my thinking ability, but I do doubt "One point below genius". It was a sales gimmick. They wantd my thousand dolars. (In 1970 this was a LOT of money) Therefore, when the Institute kept praising my work at every turn, I thought it was just mere marketing.

Let me explain from another angle. My High School grades were always D-. (I had a horrible teenage years. I always took books home, but was never able to open them, so every grade I got was honest, but was based on what I remembered in class. My "daily homework", if not done in class, always drug my grade down.)

On my writing alone, although I loved doing it, and had done it privately for years, I never got above a C in class. That was if I was able to get it done in class. The work I was most proud of only earned a C in High School. (There were a couple that got an A in Junior High at another school).

I was not used to having my work praised. In my own mind, I wasn't that good. That's it. Maybe the institute was right. Maybe I was that good. Maybe the Sales Training class was right. Maybe I was "One point below genius". But given my background, wouldn't you be skeptical?

As I mentioned previously, I never intended to diss the Institute. Not at all. I did get things out of it. I was not unhappy. I was not mad. I had an ongoing feud with them about paying for the course because I was broke, but that is another issue.

What I posted about ICL was simply a "beware" sign. Know what you're doing before you do it. Check it (or anything) out so that you don't get burned. Any business has unhappy customers. You have to expect that. But what about the overall reputation? Check with the Better Business Bureau. Do a little homework before you put out a lot of money. I was very naive, and I didn't check out either one of the schools.

In any event, thank you for your post. If I had it to do over, I would have gone through the course again. Then again, maybe not. I wouldn't have taken on something like that if I knew in advance I wouldn't have been able to pay for.

cwgranny

06-01-2005, 07:09 PM

Well, Prescott Kelly (one of the big guys there -- I can't remember his actual title, I have a mind like a sieve in my old age.) told me that NOTHING is more important to them than the happiness of their students. I believe that if you contacted them -- even today after all this time -- they would work to make you happy. You didn't give them a chance at the time since it doesn't sound like you told them you were worried about all the positive comments, wanted more corrective remarks, felt like your instructor was loading "fake" praise on you, etc. (And I have had students switched to me for feelings like that, feelings that they needed more constructive criticism, just as I have had students switch away from me because I didn't give enough up talk -- though, in my own defense, I don't slam writers -- I just always have a sense of pressure to make sure my students have everything they need to improve and sometimes it probably is pretty tough on tender young egos.)

But, I would be willing to bet they would try to find something that would give you a warm fuzzy feeling when you think of them instead of it being a bummed out memory.

gran

JennaGlatzer

06-02-2005, 02:06 AM

Brainerd, I can't help but grin at your insight. Maybe you really are good. Shocking, ain't it? :tongue I do know what you mean, though, about feeling like sunshine's being blown up your butt. I've felt that way sometimes with teachers. Sounds like you could have benefitted from switching to someone like Granny's suggesting-- with a tougher approach. But you never know... maybe you did have a tough teacher and your work really was as good as she said.

But I'll say this for the ICL: They're one of the very few companies I've actually encouraged Absolute Write's business manager to approach to advertise with us. I, too, was skeptical of their marketing, but over these past few years, I've heard time and again from people who took the course and were very happy with it, mostly citing the great feedback and personal attention from excellent teachers. In the writing world, grades don't count anyway, so I think your best measure of achievement is your own feeling about it: Do you feel like a better writer after the course? Did you pick up usable skills? Then its done its job. If not, you can and should talk to the company to see if they'll remedy the situation.

Brainerd T.

06-02-2005, 02:54 AM

Thank you, Jenna

I've never talked badly about ICL. I didn't want to come across as disgruntled now. I've always felt I got a fair shake. I bought a product, and they delivered. But, as I said, it was the first time anyone had ever told me I was any good. Indeed, I thought, as Jenna said, that "sunshine had been blown...." That's classic. Love the expression.

My experience may (or not) have been unique. Was I that good? I'll never know unless I do (or not) become a best selling author.

But the reason I'm a member of this board is to learn. If you're not always learning, you'll always stagnate.

There you have it folks - A stamp of approval from Jenna. I respect her opinion. For any others who are considering the Institute of Children's Literature, I recommend it as well.

Celeste

06-02-2005, 04:06 AM

Thank you everyone for the valuable input! Ever since I had submitted my 'test' to them, and received a raving letter in return about the short story I wrote, I began getting excited about the opportunity, but wasn't 1000% sure yet. You can never be too careful on who you decide to give money to for services. But with input like yours, the decision is final. One of the ladies there actually called me a few nights ago and again insisted that I have extremely high potential for success as a children's writer based on my short story and really would like to see me enroll, but that of course the choice would be up to me. She then also stated that I could have them extend their $25 off discount so that I could partake of the payment plan when I was financially able to (in about 3 weeks or less) instead of trying to push me into it. She sounded really pleasant as well. Since I am just starting to work FT again for the first time in about a year, I have to get bills caught up, THEN can enroll, but seeing as how that will not be far down the road, I can honestly say that I am looking forward to this with great anticipation!

Thanks everyone for the input!

Originally posted by Inspired
From what I've heard they do use that test to "weed out" those who have very little potential. They can work with people quite a bit, so I doubt they turn many away.

I'm skeptical of just about everything, so take my view of this however...

But the way I see this is, of course they are going to praise the work because, like any company, they want to make money, they want your money. I'm not saying that anyone's writing isn't good, I'm saying just because some woman on the phone w/ a pleasant voice didn't sound pushy and praised your work, doesn't mean that they are interested in you. This woman's job is to sell the course and reading your response, it sounds like she's pretty damn good at her job. I don't want to discourage you and I'm definitely not saying your writing isn't good. I'm sure it is. I'm just saying be careful, don't let some manipulative sales woman sway you into something you're unsure of.

And I just see it as very unlikely that any business that wants to make money is going to turn anyone away and not accept their money.

I don't know. I've never taken courses. I feel one can learn just as much about writing, publishing, etc... on their own. I'm sure writing courses do have their benefits, but I'd be very careful of choosing one if I were ever to consider one. And that comment made about an e-mail from them saying, "You must not be serious about your writing if you haven't joined our course.." would've turned me off real quick.

But this thread and all the comments has shown both positive and negative, just as any company would get. There's always happy and unhappy customers of any business. So, all I can really say is, good luck and I wish the best with your decision.

cwgranny

06-02-2005, 05:10 AM

All colleges are businesses and yet they all turn away students who cannot perform well enough to handle the academic life. Yet, we wouldn't tell a college kid -- yeah, kid, they accepted you but they want your tuition money. They're a business. They don't care about you or whether you're smart enough to get into college. They just PRETEND you passed your SATs -- all you really had to pass was the wallet dip.

ICL offers actual college credit that teachers (for example) can use to meet the demands of their profession for on-going credited study. ICL can do this because they have their course (and their test) evaluated by a real honest-to-gosh college. This demands a heck of a lot of paperwork from their instructors which certainly wouldn't have to happen to separate you from your money.

I realize we have a serious "beware" mentality here but I am sorry to see it extend to talking without really knowing anything about an institution.

gran
seriously disguntled on behalf of the
graduates of the ICL course who have gone
on to be published and who must face having their
hard work thrown in their faces as having been caught
by another unscrupulous business -- another poetry.com or PA.
Bah.

DJP

06-02-2005, 07:59 PM

Hey guys,

I took the course with ICL quite a few years ago. It was good for me to bring some structure and discipline to my writing routine, and at the time I was only into writing, not trying to sell my writing. The course taught me a lot about selling my work, and I still get their Children's Magazine Markets guide, it's great! Now, if only I devoted more time to submitting my work, 'sigh' maybe when the kiddies are older. Seriously, I enjoyed the course. If you're scraping the bottom of the barrel to pay for it, that's a tough choice. This course does give you the info you need on selling your work, so if you take the time and work hard, you will sell your writing. If anyone has more questions about ICL, I'd be happy to answer.

Coyote

06-12-2005, 05:12 AM

I have been in publishing for many years, and I have seen the results of the ICL courses. I get queries from people all the time who have taken their courses, and I have to say that I have never found anything publishable, except one manuscript. That author was so talented that I doubt ICL had anything to do with the success of the ms. Actually, I ended up edited out what ICL had the writer put in. I just don't have a really high opinion of any place that implicitly implies that if you give them money, they will help you get published. Most of the writers I know who join up think that an editor or agent teaching a course will spot their work and offer on it. As I said, I have gotten queries from folks who have been through their courses, and their work is just not very good. Hope this helps.

Coyote

Inspired

06-13-2005, 05:31 AM

Just curious -

Which children's magazines have you worked for?

And, how on earth do you know they came from ICL?? If someone does query with an opening line like "I know this is good because I took a course . . ." then, yeah, not good quality right there. I would say you got the ones who were still on lesson one and thought they were hot stuff. But, I've learned a bit about professionalism from the course and know not to do that. I also wouldn't expect to be a pro right off the bat. It takes time and practice, correct? I don't expect miracles - just lots of guidance (and I'm getting loads of it.)

I bet you got some great queries from ICL grads who chose to be more professional, but you didn't realize it.

cwgranny

06-13-2005, 05:10 PM

Since listing writing courses, workshops, books you've read on writing, etc. is definitely mentioned in the ICL courses as a no-no -- the vast majority of ICL students would never mention it (since I'm hoping most read the manual and follow its suggestions.) So, those who do proclaim ICL student status in a query must have missed that that part of the manual (not a good sign right from the get-go.) Yet, even in this group, Coyote found a really good submission. So amongst the least attentive of the ICL students, Coyote found a really good submission -- that's pretty impressive.

I do know a number of writers who are extensively published in magazines or have books by the publishers we all recognize and are ICL graduates. Some mention it on their websites. So obviously they feel they got something from the course or they wouldn't tell people about it. It was from an author with many books to her credit that I first found out ICL wasn't some kind of scam (since I found their marketing a bit icky -- okay, really icky.) That's why I answered a call from them and ended up writing a course for them.

I have heard graduates liken what they get from each lesson to being comparable to what they have gotten when they've attended writing conferences and paid for a professional critique. You get about that much information per lesson. SO, imagine someone attending 8 to 10 conferences and getting critiques. Will that turn them into Linda Sue Park? No. Will they learn something valuable they can use to become better writers? Yes. Will everyone see the same degree of improvement? No. Are both paths pretty expensive -- yup.

Personally, as I mentioned earlier -- I can't afford to attend 8 to 10 writing conferences and pay for critiques. (Actually, I can't afford to attend any -- I only go if they pay me.) I can't afford to take expensive writing courses (though I have taken a few on someone else's dime to evaluate them). I can't afford to pay for critique services (though I have sent materials to some of them -- again on someone else's dime -- to evaluate them). I chose to go the old-fashioned way. I wrote and wrote and wrote. And revised revised revised revised. And I still do. I study the market. Utilize my critique group. Learn from my rejections. I happen to have a degree in Journalism from a prestigious college -- that did jack for preparing me to write for children (beyond teaching me to fact check.)

Not every writer benefits from the same things. Some folks love conferences and critiques and go to more than one a year. Some folks love taking classes. Some folks find value in paid critiques. And some hit the grindstone and learn that way. I know what works for me but I don't know what works for everyone and I would never suppose to slam a door in front of someone or devalue the hard work they put into working THEIR journey. Which is exactly what a "ICL graduates all suck except for those who probably didn't need the course" post does. There is always someone who can devalue whatever path you are taking and that's pathetic. I've heard college grads tell those without college that they can give it up -- you can't get published that way. I've heard those who love conferences sneer at those who prefer books. In a field where there is so much unavoidable frustration built in -- it's sad that we have to build ourselves up by devaluing others.

I do know I've had students through ICL who were not benefiting from distance learning. In those situations, I contact the school so the person doesn't end up paying for something that isn't helping. Some people really need one-on-one, face-to-face input. Those folks might do better with conferences and critiques -- or with writing groups -- or with in-class instruction -- or by getting a less taxing hobby. Writing is hard work and it isn't for everyone.

ICL does NOT promise to make people into successful writers. All the school promises is to help the student get one submittable manuscript if the student stays in the course to the end -- that doesn't mean submittable to Boy's Life, American Girl, or HarperCollins (though it might). It might mean submittable to The Friend, Story Station, or Bread for God's Children (and instructors are supposed to be very honest about that.) Of course, if I were to send a Bread story to Dutton, the editor is going to send it right back to me. And if I'm stubborn, I'll then send it to FS&G and then Barefoot, until I finally believe my instructor and go ahead and send it to Bread.

gran

pam

06-14-2005, 09:50 PM

But the way I see this is, of course they are going to praise the work because, like any company, they want to make money, they want your money. I'm not saying that anyone's writing isn't good, I'm saying just because some woman on the phone w/ a pleasant voice didn't sound pushy and praised your work, doesn't mean that they are interested in you. This woman's job is to sell the course and reading your response, it sounds like she's pretty damn good at her job. I don't want to discourage you and I'm definitely not saying your writing isn't good. I'm sure it is. I'm just saying be careful, don't let some manipulative sales woman sway you into something you're unsure of.

Sorry, I'm coming back to this discussion late. I DID have an ICL teacher that DID blow you know what up my you know what, so what did I do? I told ICL and they gave me a new teacher. Pronto! My new teacher was awesome and I credit her with my fast sales after I completed the course. If you are ever unsatisfied with a teacher, ICL will change. That shows you their committment to your satisfaction.

(Gee, I sound like a sales pitch!)

http://www.pamcalvert.com (http://www.pamcalvert.com/)

ldumont999

06-14-2005, 10:03 PM

I facilitate a writers group in the North Jersey area and I can tell you that some people DO fail the test. A new member of my group really wanted to be a children's writer but failed the test. I worked with her for nearly a year before she conquered some writing basics. She then resubmitted her test and I'm pleased to say she passed. This woman was simply uneducated but had a wonderful imagination. She's been published a number of times since.

I also know two ICI staff members. The hours they spend with their students and the dedication of these individuals is exemplary.

Regarding the comment from the editor. I agree that submitting an assignment and telling the editor that it was an assignment is in poor taste at best. I do not think the editor was against ICI so much as he/she was against being the recipient of something written for an other purpose.

Christine N.

06-14-2005, 10:47 PM

Coyote won't be able to respond. She's been banned.

Tish Davidson

06-15-2005, 01:38 AM

Coyote won't be able to respond. She's been banned.

Why banned? I looked back at her post on this thread and although she disagreed with others, I did not think the post offensive.

cwgranny

06-15-2005, 04:15 AM

She wasn't banned for anything she said here. She got into a brouhaha on Off Limit Agent thread on the Bewares and Background Check board.

gran

Christine N.

06-15-2005, 04:17 AM

Sorry I should have made that clear.

Kappie

06-15-2005, 07:06 AM

Just thought I'd put my two cents in about ICL. I took the course and agree with DJP and her experience. I become pregnant twice(confined to my bed most of the time) while trying to finish and they gave me extensions and were very understanding about the whole situation. Someone gave the course to me as a gift so I was lucky I did not have to worry about the cost. Just thought I'd weigh in:)

Beth4158

06-20-2005, 07:40 AM

There's little that can be added to this discussion (everyone who's written before me has done a top-notch job of lobbing all the pros and cons out there for consideration), but I will echo a sentiment I saw early in the thread: I, too, took the "test" and passed with flying colors (I can write a decent sentence, so I wasn't surprised), but I didn't sign up for the course. I was -- I think it's fair to use ths word -- hounded with letters from them. Even when I'd move, the letters would follow me. And I was thoroughly disgusted with the Institute's attempt to belittle/disgrace me into signing up for the course, by suggesting that if I had such aptitude and hadn't yet signed up, I must not be serious about becoming a writer.
Fed up, I finally fired off a letter in response, saying that my editors at the Chicago Tribune seemed to think I could write just fine, as I'd been working there for several years.
The letters stopped coming.

msanjelpie

06-29-2005, 03:33 AM

I took the ICL course about 12 years ago. I thought it would be easy. I was wrong. Writing is a lot harder than it looks. I received 'chapter lessons' in the mail to place into a binder. By the end of the course the binder was full. Each lesson teaches one point they want you to learn. You are assigned your own teacher. You only deal with this teacher once you start the course. You write what they tell you to write, you mail it to your teacher, who corrects it for you, makes notes etc... and sends it back.

Within the first couple of chapters, I learned a bunch of stuff, but I probably could have learned it from reading any 'how to write' book. As for the personalized attention from a teacher, it all depends on where you live and what is available to you as to whether this would be beneficial in the long run.

It was fun mailing off the stories and getting them back. The main thing I learned as I went along the course, is that writing 'correctly' is hard. I would spend so many hours working on some stupid children's story that was only 1 or 2 pages long, and I would feel like I had just written a novel. Very taxing on the brain!

Near the end, you learn your strengths, and I learned that I can write for teens much better than for kids. It was suggested that I send in stories to Seventeen Magazine to get the ball rolling... I found the thought of reaching out to the youth of today with my knowledge of my own teen life and everything I've learned since to be inspirational.

Unfortunately, I wasn't inspired enough to spend the hours and hours it would have taken to come up with something worth publishing... and that was just a short story, not even thinking along the lines of a full fledged book. Good luck, I think if you go through with it you will enjoy it. Money aside, it was a fun hobby to pursue.

Gindee77

06-30-2005, 07:31 AM

I was really happy to read this thread. I have been debating about whether or not to take this course and doing a lot of research trying to find something bad about ICL. That's not easy to do. There just isn't anything bad out there about it. I felt compelled to do the research, not because it's so expensive, in fact, it isn't nearly as expensive as I thought it would be. But since there wasn't a word about the cost until after I had taken and passed the aptitude test (and then I had to hunt thru reams of leaflets to find the small one with the info about the cost) I made the assumption early on that it was probably grossly overpriced. It wasn't, but not knowing until after the test results came back sort of left a bad taste in my mouth from the beginning. I totally agree with some of the above posters who think ICL's marketing is a bit (or a lot) cheezy and it tends to make those of us who would like to take a course like this a bit (or a lot) nervous. After all, it's the first impression we get of the school; it's not a good one (think: "Draw Binkie"). That being said, I haven't been able to find anything bad about the school on the internet and I'm really leaning toward taking the course. It fits into my schedule, my budget, my lifestyle and my personal obligations. Even tho I've been published a lot (I was a free-lance newspaper reporter for 12 years) I'm an absolute beginner when it comes to writing kids books, so that part fits too.

I have one issue left that I'd like to settle before I go for it and I'm going to ask you 'in-the-know' posters. Do the instructors shove their own style of writing down your throat? Do they allow you free enough rein to be yourself and express things the way you want to express them, or is there a strict prescribed way they expect you to write? Being with one, and only one, instructor for 2 years seems to me to have it's drawbacks. I can understand the 'mentor' concept and it's benefits, but is this all good? Or can your style begin to mirror the one person who has taught you, for so long, that you lose your own identity?

TIA
G

DragonTears

06-30-2005, 09:09 PM

As the original owner of this post, I was pleasantly surprised to see that it has gone on as long as it has. It is refreshing to see all the different points of view on this school, both good and bad. I still maintain that I will be enrolling sometime in July and can only hope that my experiences there will be a reflection of what the 'happy' posters here have experienced.

Once I enroll, and as I proceed through the course, I will periodically post my experiences with them on here for everyone to see.

As for Gidlee, I wish you all the luck with them as well!

Inspired

07-01-2005, 02:57 AM

Dragon, I don't know if I said this before, but go to the ICL website and find something called Writers RX. Then, read through that and put the chats on your schedule. They are fun and informative. Also, sign up for the message board there. People that are going through the course hang out there. Some are very inexperienced, some have problems on an assignment and ask questions, some are almost done with the course and share articles and suggestions. It's a good place to be.

(not as good as this board with all its experts, but still good.)

Inspired

07-01-2005, 03:03 AM

Hmmm. I didn't think that went through. Great. I e-mailed you, Dragon, too. If you need help finding the different parts of their "virtual school," let me know.

CalicoBean

07-01-2005, 09:06 AM

I have one issue left that I'd like to settle before I go for it and I'm going to ask you 'in-the-know' posters. Do the instructors shove their own style of writing down your throat? Do they allow you free enough rein to be yourself and express things the way you want to express them, or is there a strict prescribed way they expect you to write? Being with one, and only one, instructor for 2 years seems to me to have it's drawbacks. I can understand the 'mentor' concept and it's benefits, but is this all good? Or can your style begin to mirror the one person who has taught you, for so long, that you lose your own identity?

TIA
G

G,
This wasn't at all my experience. I felt free to write what I wanted to write. I looked just now at my binder (which I have kept since 97-98!), and found a feedback letter where the instructor addresses the following elements of that month's story: point of view issues, pace, some awkward phrases and word choices, and a few places where the story could be expanded a bit. This is just an example, but the feedback was helpful and I certainly didn't feel that she was trying to smush me into a certain style.

If you do happen to get an instructor who makes you uncomfortable or doesn't help you, take Pam's advice and ask the Institute for another instructor.

Gindee77

07-02-2005, 05:54 AM

Thanks CalicoBean, I appreciate your answering my concerns. I am also going to try to find that Writer's Rx forum too.

Gindee

Gindee77

07-06-2005, 12:34 AM

I've researched the ICL and was very happy with the results. Since I'm a beginner, I'm going to take the course, I'm sending my $$$ in tomorrow and making the commitment. Thanks for all the input on this thread, it really helped me make a decision!

Ginni

CalicoBean

07-07-2005, 01:39 AM

Good luck Ginni! I'm sure you'll enjoy the course. Keep us posted from time to time :)

mnorton

07-07-2005, 11:06 PM

I'm interested in enrolling in the Institute of Children's Literature. I have taken the test and have been accepted. I have the money but before I spend the tuition money I would like to know what I am getting into. My goal is to get my writing to a point where I can get published and possibly make a career transition into becoming a freelance writer. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated whether it's positive or negative. I would prefer to hear from people who have recently taken the course.

Gindee77

07-08-2005, 12:22 AM

Mnorton, did you read this entire thread? It is very enlightening and helpful. I just sent my money off today. I have sort of the same dream you do. Maybe you should take the offer of the ICL and get some names and numbers of people in your area who have taken the course and call and talk to them. I did a lot of research before I sent in my tuition and I couldn't find anything bad online about them. In fact, that's how I found this forum. I chose to go for it because I'm a total beginner and don't have any experience in this sort of writing and they say ICL is a good place to start if you have no experience. Good luck in your quest.

Ginni

RoseWrites

07-08-2005, 12:35 AM

Okay, here's what I'm wondering and anyone can answer this.....
I took the test, I was accepted, but do you know of anyone who wasn't accepted? I understand they may be a good school, but maybe they accept everyone so they can get more money (it is quite expensive). A friend of mine took the test just recently and gave horrible answers and story just to see if they would reject him. I have yet to hear back as it's only been 2wks, but anyone else?

Inspired

07-08-2005, 12:54 AM

That was answered in one of Granny's responses on a previous page (this thread.) I don't know anyone personally, but she said she does.

As you go along, the instructor will recommend that certain stories be polished up and sent to publications. I know one instructor who said she has some students who could publish fairly early, but that most need a lot of work. She said that by lesson 7 or 8, a lot of her students have learned enough to start submitting.

The instructors will try to take you from where you are to a more advanced level. If you start out with little skills, you won't come out of the course another C.S. Lewis. But, you'll be better than when you started (if you do all your homework!)

Recently I heard a complaint that a few of the instructors are too nice. They want to encourage students, so they don't edit very heavily. If my instructor did that, I'd be on her case or ask to change instructors. They know that some students are very sensitive, so they take that into consideration.

One student I heard from recently, said she was going to quit because there were marks all over her story. She felt so discouraged. I seriously thought about asking her who her instructor was, because I want that! I want my instructor to be truthful and ruthless with my writing. And, she is - I hope!

So, if you do decide to take the course, don't be afraid to speak up if the instructor is too easy. They may have made someone cry in the past and think you need the gentle approach, too. But, I don't think that's the best way to learn.

I still contend that they aren't that expensive compared to other learning opportunities. I was planning to go to some writing workshops this summer, and they are so much more than this course! They last for a few days; ICL last for months (up to two years).

Gindee77

07-08-2005, 04:05 AM

Concerning rejections...I ran across a website in my travels while I was looking into this school that was totally about being rejected by ICL. Here's the website. Now I realize this could have been fabricated, but I got a kick out of it anyway, and it could be the real deal. If nothing else, it will give you a good laugh!

http://www.silverladder.com/literature/humor/intro.htm

And if you don't like your instructor, you can call ICL and change anytime. I think this thread mentioned it earlier on too. I talked to a lady who works for ICL and she said they want you to be happy and will put you with the type of instructor you want. If you feel you need firmer and more forthright critiques, they'll give you an instructor who'll do that. If you want them to go easier on you, they'll give you someone like that or even if you just don't like who you have, maybe there's a personality conflict or something. You can pretty much tell them what you want and they'll try to obligue. I didn't get the idea that you could bounce around from instructor to instuctor...but they try to keep you satisfied. I also have a tendency to want tougher critisizm. I'm the type that can take it and feel I get better, more honest feedback if I'm not being coddled.

I hope this helps. I don't know any of this firsthand but have done my homework.

Gin

Gindee77

07-08-2005, 04:22 AM

....I don't think it costs much at all. It averages out to about $100 per college credit and that's not bad at all. Of course, cost is relative to how much you can afford, but if you weigh it against other college costs, it's not too bad.

Gin

Button

02-13-2006, 11:18 PM

I know this is an old thread but I wanted to leave my comment here without starting another one.

I just signed up for the course and I have gotten my course material in the mail. I just completed my first assignment.

I have not gotten any feedback yet but I have been reading through the materials and I do say it is good stuff. Yes, you could get this from a book on children's writing, though I do think it is more through than any of the books I have read.

I can't wait to hear from my instructor to see how things work out but I am glad to know that if she isn't what I expect, I can request someone else.

I think things will work out fine though.

Rane

03-01-2006, 10:18 PM

I recently joined too, and received my welcome letter...now i'm just waiting on the materials. I'm looking forward to this course after reading this thread.

madderblue

03-03-2006, 09:53 AM

Hello, there, I took the course quite a while ago, ten years or so? I wanted to be a writer and didn't even know what this stuff called plot, charcterization, or point of view was. So I was very excited to get the invite.

It's probably true you can get the information from books or other online courses (maybe cheaper). In retrospect, though,I found what really worked well for me was the assignements with their deadlines. I discovered I'm much more diligent with my writing when I have a direction and a time limit. My teacher got sick half way through and had to quit the institute, so I was lucky to have two different teachers. I really felt I got my money's worth with the one who pushed me more, the one who covered my darling story in red ink.

David Goldschmidt

03-08-2006, 08:17 PM

More to add to this nice long thread....

I graduated from the ICL course and found it to be extremely helpful in terms of content, deadlines, and interactions with a "real" author/editor. http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/smilies/emoteThumbs.gif

I'm currently taking the advanced course on writing a novel, mainly to keep me writing! With deadlines, like madderblue said, I do indeed make the time to write. And hearing feedback from an author -- in my case, Nancy Butts -- is very helpful.

DaveG

stormie

03-10-2006, 07:36 PM

Awhile ago, I took the online test, passed, but then saw the amount of money I had to pay. It wasn't feasible for me. I went to the library and took out as many books I could find on writing and writing for children. I searched writer's boards and web sites. Meanwhile, a teacher from ICL called and tried to persuade me to sign-up for the course. She was very nice, and I just told her I couldn't afford it at the time. And that was that. They don't push, which I like.

So, if you have the money, it's something to consider. As others have said, you can switch teachers if you need to.

The one thing I'm not sure about, is if the ICL web site mentions the amount of money you have to pay to take the course. If they don't, they really should be more up-front about it, instead of a future student finding out after they take the test.

rdfamily

03-12-2006, 12:52 AM

I'm sure if you wanted to be a scientist, you could check out as many books on science and do as much research as possible on the internet. (Or you could stay at a Holiday Inn Express! J/K) But that doesn't mean that you'll learn what you need at the pace that you should learn it, in the context in which it should be taken with lessons on how it's applicable to life or career.

Obviously not all approaches work for all writers (it IS unfair to compare science to a creative art IMO), but I too am one who has a difficult time starting myself and making time in the day to write (with three kids, one on the way, and a career soldier as a husband). But I thrive under deadlines, which is why I believe this course is good for me. I was accepted a few years ago, but due to several losses in my family in a very short amount of time (parents and two still births) and a deployment somewhere in there, I never did take the course. I called and explained the situation, and was never hassled by the school. I DID, however, take several online courses with a college for a business degree and really found that my passion was writing, not what my original goal was with that program. I had major complaints about my counselor and instructors and was never given the courtesey of hearing my side, much less a change that was condusive to my learning style. This prompted me to not return, so here I am again, signing up for something I'd rather be doing anyway.

stormie

03-12-2006, 07:12 PM

Writing is creative. Far different from studying science text books. Books on writing are guides, not gospel truth. The ability to write is innate. What the books do, is help put the new writer on the right track. So do web sites for writers. Verla Kay (http://www.verlakay.com/) and Harold Underdown (http://www.underdown.org/) are two web sites that are excellent.

And also, what you get out of a writing course (and I took those in college, too), is only as good as the teacher. I had good ones and absolutely terrible ones. At least with ICL, you can request a different teacher. I just didn't have the money, but worked hard at writing and writing well.

rdfamily

03-14-2006, 02:56 AM

I didn't mean to imply that I disagreed with your method. It wouldn't be one that works well for me. However, I did intend to aim my comment towards the mentality of many of the other posts prior from others that suggest that all one would need to do is check some books out and ask for opinions from others on messageboards and they'd get the same experience. It does work for some, but not all, and I think that should be respected. (not saying you don't)

I completely agree with you about getting out of a class what a teacher is able to put into it. Which is why I appreciate the instructors at this institute compared to those hired by colleges...I have a friend who is an English teacher (one of her courses is a composition course) at a local CC, and she got the job a year after completing her Bachelor's in English. That was all she needed to qualify her for the position. I've heard her talk about how many times she didn't even read what was turned in, as long as they met her requirements! EEK! She's actually quit the job since having a baby, and looks back thinking how she must have cheated those student...I agreed with her.

My mom tried to complete her degree before she passed away from cancer, and her last teacher was absolutely horrible. Instead of giving my mom good grades for meeting requirements on reports (a Children's Lit course, btw), she docked her because she didn't subsitute her own information in the "example" she'd given the class. Essentially she was punished for being creative and original. It was that experience that convinced her it wasn't worth it to go through such stress during the last months of her life.

Wow, I did ramble, didn't I? I apologize. Anyway, I didn't mean to offend you if that's what happened. However, I take offense to those that try to convince others that "all you really have to do is..." or "it's the same as..." Maybe for them, but not for people like myself. (note: quotes not taken literally, I don't have time to go back and search for them)

majiklmoon

03-20-2006, 12:43 AM

Well,

I took their test and sent it in, and now I'm waiting. I'm curious as to the cost, though. My ex just lost his job again, and that means not much in the way of child support coming through.

Inspired

03-21-2006, 12:18 AM

When you get the stuff, call the student services number and see what they offer you. I believe there's a shorter course that's a little cheaper, or you could do payments, or you could wait until a better time.

stormie

03-21-2006, 12:31 AM

I'm curious as to the cost, though.

That's why I think they should be more up-front about it, like posting it on their web site.

Button

03-23-2006, 10:31 PM

I wasn't too shocked by the price. When I applied the first time, I couldn't afford it. When I applied again, I could afford it easily and I am using the monthly payment method.

I did get my first assignment back and I am very pleased with what my instructor has said. As usual, my head swelled up that I thought she would say it was THE BEST story every. lol I think I would have been disappointed though to get a pat on the back type of teacher. She clearly knows her stuff and what editors want. She was able to pick apart my story reasonably. There was enough 'good job' comments mixed in with the 'here is what I think needs work' stuff that it made me want to say thank you and rewrite like she suggested.

I do look forward to what she says about my next assignment. I think having the instructor work with you on your materials is the best. I'd have to pay way more to get this from someone else.

majiklmoon

03-25-2006, 04:24 AM

janetbellinger

03-25-2006, 10:03 AM

Well, I received my packet from them today, and the price isn't as horrible as it could be, but I still need to think seriously.

I need to contact them about this college credit thing. For a 'fee' they can mail my transcripts to a college or to my school board for certification purposes. Why can't they just give me a copy of my transcripts like have my my grad school and undergrad schools.

I took their test in 1990 or 91, and they said I rated in the top percentile or some thing, and that I really owed it to myself to take the course, and become a children's writer. I wondered if they told everybody the same thing. The course seemed awfully expensive at the time, and also, I just didn't believe their claim about my writing being *** good as they claimed. I didn't sign up and for several months, they sent me letters trying to persuade me to take the course. Finally, the Registrar called, and tried to convince me to sign up. I told her I'd decided to take another course, at the Ottawa Writing School, which had a broader scope, because I wasn't really sure if Children's Lit was the genre for me. But I hadn't been prepared for the zest with which ICL would pursue me. It seemed pretty high pressure, for an academic institution. Good luck to you, if you decide to take the course.

Janet

majiklmoon

03-25-2006, 05:53 PM

I still don't know what i'll do. LIke I said, a lot depends on the "college credits" as an educator, I need to take classes and workshops to keep up my certification (most of which I have to pay for) so if this can be applied ot my clock hours, it's good, but I want them to send ME a transcripts

klgoing

04-05-2006, 09:03 PM

This whole discussion is fascinating. I'm a published author of books for teens and children, and I used to work in publishing at a literary agency. I've been considering applying to teach at the Children's Institute. I feel like I might have a lot to offer (I've also done freelance editing and worked as a manager of an independent bookstore, so I've seen publishing from almost every angle!) however, I've had some of the same concerns that people in this forum are voicing -- mostly about their marketing and the reputation of the program.

I've been asking around about the program and on the whole I've heard great things. They've had many wonderful teachers, including Lois Lowry, who I so admire...

I wonder if the program is aware of the, shall we say, *tarnish* that their aggressive marketing inspires? People see through advertising so easily these days and if it actually turns off potential students and teachers to what seems like a solid program, that's a shame.

Fern

04-07-2006, 06:38 AM

You may have seen by my way earlier post in this thread that I had a dose of their "aggressive" marketing some years ago. I applied . . . I know its been more than 16 years because my daughter wasn't yet born & she is now 16.

Getting to the present point . . .this past week I received a letter from them saying they had found my name in their "purge" file, etc., etc.

At the end of the letter (just like what my kids bring home from school to be signed and returned) they added a statement with a place for signature to be returned to them. It reads:

"Please purge my name from your file and discard it. I've given up on my dreams I might have had about writing for children."
Lists my name and address and provides a signature line.

I find this offensive. That second sentence was totally unnecessary, not to mention condescending. In the past their material has said such things as I must not be serious about my desire to write and that sort of thing. They may very well offer a great course. However, I can't get past what I consider "insulting" marketing strategy.

majiklmoon

04-07-2006, 03:07 PM

that is pretty callous, and if it were me, I'd tell them so.

I've been happy with the way they've treated me. They haven't been TOO aggessive, and the cost isn't TOO high, so I'm giving it a whirl. And they now accept assignments via email vs. snail mail, so I'm happy abou that.

janetbellinger

04-07-2006, 04:18 PM

It is very insulting. I found them overly aggressive too, about the same length of time, ago. Perhaps you should reply with a space for them to sign that they are committed to exploitive and callous marketing strategies.

Jamesaritchie

04-07-2006, 05:35 PM

"Please purge my name from your file and discard it. I've given up on my dreams I might have had about writing for children."
Lists my name and address and provides a signature line.

I find this offensive. That second sentence was totally unnecessary, not to mention condescending. In the past their material has said such things as I must not be serious about my desire to write and that sort of thing. They may very well offer a great course. However, I can't get past what I consider "insulting" marketing strategy.

I imagine many find this line offfensive, but for many more it apparently works very well. It makes them reconsider and sign up fpr the course. It's pretty difficult to convince anyone to give up a marketing strategy that has proven successful, and this one has.

Fern

04-07-2006, 08:39 PM

I imagine many find this line offfensive, but for many more it apparently works very well. It makes them reconsider and sign up fpr the course. It's pretty difficult to convince anyone to give up a marketing strategy that has proven successful, and this one has.

Has it really proven successful you think? Wonder what percentage goes on and accepts after receiving such a letter? I'd love seeing some definite numbers on that. Wonder what percentage might have accepted if their approach was different. Have they ever tried another approach to have something to actually compare how well it has worked or not?

If I were betting, I'd figure most people who do sign up do it early on and never get to the insulting portion of the marketing strategy, therefore they are happy with the course, etc., and are flabergasted when other folks complain. . .because they never were exposed to the insulting strategy in the first place.

My experience with them started at around a $700 charge for the course; can't remember exact amount. A few months later it dropped to $3something. Then the letters began. Along the line of:
Are you giving up on your dream?
I guess you weren't serious about writing after all.

My opinion of them fell a bit more with each followup.

majiklmoon

04-07-2006, 09:42 PM

My experience with them started at around a $700 charge for the course; can't remember exact amount. A few months later it dropped to $3something. Then the letters began. Along the line of:
Are you giving up on your dream?
I guess you weren't serious about writing after all.

My opinion of them fell a bit more with each followup.

drat, you mean if I held out a while, the price of the course might have dropped :( bummer lol

Fern

04-07-2006, 10:23 PM

drat, you mean if I held out a while, the price of the course might have dropped :( bummer lol

Don't feel badly, majik. The course may well be worth every cent you paid. :D
Besides if you're like me when you make up your mind to do something, waiting around for a better price isn't always good on the nerves.

McGill

04-08-2006, 02:48 AM

Fern

04-08-2006, 02:56 AM

You know, it very well could have been a shortened course they offered me at a lower price. I don't still have the paperwork since it was years ago. I don't recall it being any different from the first, but I wouldn't swear it wasn't shorter either. That said, they should have given both options up front. Do you recall, McGill, how long after you declined the first version before they offered the shorter version?

I do want to repeat that my posts are strictly a gripe against their marketing practice. In no way am I saying anything against the course itself, nor the instructors. I never took the course.

janetbellinger

04-08-2006, 03:03 AM

They offered me a cut rate on the course, too. I still declined.

majiklmoon

04-08-2006, 04:22 AM

Majiklmoon, The price of the course does not drop. What happens is there is another shorter course, which is only 6 or 7 assignments, that they offer people who have rejected their full course because it is too expensive. I took the shorten version, and I really liked it. I think the course literature is excellent, very informative and easily understood. My experience in taking the course was very positive. It helped me a lot with my writing, especially the marketing aspect of writing.

That's great to here. I'm waiting anxiously for the course materials to arrive. And like I said in an earlier post, I'm very excited that they have decided to start using an email format. I'm very lazy about going to the post office, but I check my email about 9 million times a day lol.

FolkloreFanatic

04-08-2006, 07:33 AM

I received a letter from ICL about two weeks ago without expressing ANY interest in their program whatsoever. What really galls me is that of all of the publications I've submitted my work to in the past several months, only one of them has accepted my work.

In other words, chances are good that a publication that rejected me sold my address to a marketing firm. Not cool.

majiklmoon

04-08-2006, 05:57 PM

McGill

04-08-2006, 08:00 PM

Fern, I don't recall the exact amount of time that elapsed. After not responding to letters they sent, I received a phone call. I told whoever I was speaking to that I couldn't affort the course right now. It was probably no more then six months later that they wrote offering the shorter course, at about half the price. This appealled to me because the payments were reasonable, and I could pay in Canadian. I agree with you that they could be a lot more up front in their marketing process. I don't like the fact that they don't reveal the price of the course until after you have taken their aptitude test. And I don't like that you are not made aware of the option of a shorter course, until after rejecting the longer one. They should be more mindful that aggressive marketing often scares a lot of people away.

Having said all that I do, in the end, believe they deliver the goods. The course really helped me (and I had published a couple of pieces before taking it). I would recommend it highly to anyone interested in writing for children or teens.

Jamesaritchie

04-09-2006, 07:43 AM

Has it really proven successful you think? Wonder what percentage goes on and accepts after receiving such a letter? .

I'm only assuming it's successful with them because the same line has been highly successful with other places that have used it. Even many who get mad at first later reconsider and sign up. Supposedly, most people get over the mad and remember th edream. I can only tell the that the big ad agencies say this technique works very well in that it draws back more potential customers when compared to the same responses that do not use the line.

rdfamily

04-09-2006, 06:11 PM

This type of aggression isn't just used by ICL. When I decided not to continue going after my Associates with a well-known online college, I received phone calls, emails, and letters for over six months. In fact, a major reason I chose not to continue with them was due to the rude and aggressive words from my former Academic Counselor. I asked for a new one and they said it wasn't possible. Since the degree I was going for wasn't really what I was interested in, I felt it wasn't worth the stress and aggrivation.

And interestingly enough, a few years ago I was all set to go with ICL and had to pass due to several family deaths and changes that happened in close succession. I called and explained the situation, and was never pressured by their advertising department. So in my book, ICL is definitely my personal choice.

majiklmoon

04-09-2006, 06:21 PM

If peopole are interested, and if the mods are okay with it, I can post about the lessons as I go along. Not exact content, I'm sure that would be violating something, but just a synopsis of what they are suggesting and the exercises they are having me do.

Fern

04-09-2006, 07:12 PM

majiklmoon

04-09-2006, 07:52 PM

Thanks McGill for responding to my question. . . I think it may have been about the same length of time on my offer. Also, thanks for clarifying, Jamesaritchie. It's interesting to read all the different "takes" on this stuff.

I think your idea is excellent, majik. I'd be interested in reading along.

Cool - I'm waiting for the arrival of the package with my text books and the second half of assignment 1.

The first half of assignment 1 is to write a letter to your instructor telling him/her about you, your family life, career, and your writing goals etc.

I will admit to one concern here. The instructor they assigned me sent out a little blurb talking about her, and one thing she does is start her day reading her bible and praying. I certainly don't have a problem with that, but I'm concerned that she won't be crazy about the YA novel I'm working on because it has a paranormal theme, some sex and child abuse.

Inspired

04-09-2006, 09:32 PM

Maybe you should put that in your first letter. Ask her if that's going to be a problem. If you have any reservations at all, call Student Services and ask to switch.

janetbellinger

04-09-2006, 10:30 PM

I think you have to be careful about putting sex and child abuse into a YA novel. From my understanding , they are supposed to be sqeaky clean. That's why I didn't market Teacher on the Run as a YA, because it had some sex scenes in it.

Inspired

04-09-2006, 10:43 PM

janetbellinger

04-09-2006, 11:07 PM

my mistake. I'm going by outdated information then.
Janet

rdfamily

04-09-2006, 11:09 PM

Well, I know my mom was hesitant 20 years ago when I wanted to read Are You There God, It's Me Margaret by Judy Blume...risque then by most standards (because of it talking about puberty and boobs). I remember sex and private issues being topics in many of the Christopher Pike type books I read in my teens as well. And I know way too many 6th graders who were reading VC Andrews in my day. I haven't read a YA novel in over a decade, so it's certainly not mine to say, but I would suspect that the novel topics have become more mature, just as subject matter in teen movies and shows have.

As a parent, I would want my children (when the time is appropriate, of course) to know the dangers and issues out there. I felt all alone as a teen because I thought my depression was freakish...only to know now that it's almost freakish NOT to be a depressed teen. I would have appreciated real life issues in the books and articles I read at the onset of my adolescence instead of who was the new hot hunk on the cover of TEEN magazine. I think as long as the violent parts aren't for entertainment, but rather for the understanding of the characters and maybe to reach out to readers on some level, it shouldn't be a taboo.

majiklmoon

04-09-2006, 11:11 PM

Maybe you should put that in your first letter. Ask her if that's going to be a problem. If you have any reservations at all, call Student Services and ask to switch.
I am planning to include that fact in my intro letter. It wouldn't be fair to either of us to work on a project where one person or the other was uncomfortable with the subject matter

I think you have to be careful about putting sex and child abuse into a YA novel. From my understanding , they are supposed to be sqeaky clean. That's why I didn't market Teacher on the Run as a YA, because it had some sex scenes in it.

When I say sex, I'm not talking rampant groping in the back seat of mom and dad's car, but the natural progression of a relationship.

As far as the child abuse - it's an intergral part of the story that makes my main character who she is, but I'm being very careful to make sure it is not graphic.

janetbellinger

04-09-2006, 11:12 PM

Good point, although God only knows why sixth graders need to learn about group rape. I guess I am just bemoaning the fact that kids aren't allowed to be kids anymore.

majiklmoon

04-09-2006, 11:13 PM

Good point, although God only knows why sixth graders need to learn about group rape. I guess I am just bemoaning the fact that kids aren't allowed to be kids anymore.

very valid point. I should have specified that my story is more high schol aged

rdfamily

04-09-2006, 11:18 PM

I would be surprised if the ICL instructor wasn't professional enough to accept modern subject matter as a legitimate topic in a YA novel.

janetbellinger

04-09-2006, 11:24 PM

I may have been too harsh. I realize that the world of children has changed, and that they are exposed to adult and unhealthy influences. I just wish it was not so. We seem to have come full circle, in a very sad way. Once eleven and twelve year old were expected to take on adult responsibilities, and had to work long hours in unsanitary condition, exploited by adult supervisors, and were subject to harsh treatment at home, if they even had a home. Then we made the world more humane, and recognized that people of eleven and twelve are still children. They are developing into young adults, but they will not be there for a long time. Now, eleven and twelve year olds are watching adult movies and having to worry about the possibility of group rape. I am not knocking your story. I am just upset that children and even teenagers would have to worry about this.

Janet

rdfamily

04-09-2006, 11:24 PM

Well, I suspect I wasn't the only kid in the world who was reading books ahead of my age group. So a book aimed at teens would have been something I was reading in 5th grade. Unfortunately, group rape is something we have to worry about in junior high now. It's scary, but it isn't a book that's making these kids grow up too fast, but for many a book that addresses that issue, among others, might just be the answer they needed at that time.

However, I haven't read anything about Amazon women going to war either...LOL

majiklmoon

04-09-2006, 11:36 PM

I may have been too harsh. I realize that the world of children has changed, and that they are exposed to adult and unhealthy influences. I just wish it was not so.

Oh no, Janet, I don't see you as too harsh. It's something I struggled with, do I want to include these thems in my book. But unfortunately, these things are out there, and kids are exposed to them.

lol - I know I wouldn't let my 11 year old twins read my book

Jamesaritchie

04-10-2006, 05:49 AM

According to discussions on other children's writers boards, YA is quite risque these days. One of the last Writer's Digests profiled an author of a YA novel that had self-mutilation (Amazons removing a breast before battle) and a group rape.

It isn't so much what's in a novel as much as how it's handled. Almost anything can be put into a YA novel, but it can't be put in with the same amount of detail and graphics as it would be in an adult novel. You have to handle such subjects carefully. I also find it odd calling the Amazon practice of removing a breast "self-mutilation." It wasn't the same thing in any way at all. It was self-preservation, and not done for anything like the reasons self-mutilation is done.

One thning to remember is that it isn't teens you have to please, it's publishers and parents first, and then teens.

Inspired

04-10-2006, 06:55 AM

I think there's quite a variety of YA material today. Some is "old-fashioned" to some people, while others is quite shocking to others. There's room for quite a variety of material.

Inspired

04-10-2006, 06:58 AM

I also find it odd calling the Amazon practice of removing a breast "self-mutilation."

I thought that label may have been a bit "off" too, considering what modern-day self-mutilation entails, but I can see why they chose to call it that. I can't remember off-hand if it was the WD interviewer or the author herself who used that label.

majiklmoon

04-13-2006, 03:14 PM

Well, i received my "books" and the first three lessons yesterday. Lesson one consists of the introductory about me letter to your instructor, and then you are given 3 pictures to use as prompts - chose one and write 750 words about it.

The first pix is for those who are interested in writing for young children and has a fantasy theme - talking animals etc

Pix 2 is set for middle readers and the two kids in it are around 8-10 years old.

Pix 3 is for those who want to write for teens - me me me!

rdfamily

04-13-2006, 05:08 PM

majik,

I just signed up a few days ago. Should receive my materials in about a month. Can I ask who your instructor is?

majiklmoon

04-13-2006, 05:09 PM

Marcia Hoehne - I think that's how you spell it. All the paper work is home, and I'm here at school pretending to work.

rdfamily

04-13-2006, 05:51 PM

When I called to enroll, they confirmed that Patricia Calvert is going to be my instructor. I'm pretty impressed with her credentials! I'm very excited to get started.

majiklmoon

04-13-2006, 07:14 PM

When I called to enroll, they confirmed that Patricia Calvert is going to be my instructor. I'm pretty impressed with her credentials! I'm very excited to get started.

I googled my instructor right away...she's done a lot, so hopefully, I'll learn a lot from her

Jamesaritchie

04-13-2006, 08:17 PM

I thought that label may have been a bit "off" too, considering what modern-day self-mutilation entails, but I can see why they chose to call it that. I can't remember off-hand if it was the WD interviewer or the author herself who used that label.

It struck me as odd because Amazons removed a breast for a pratcical, life an death reason. A breast of any size can get in the way of using a bow properly, and using a bow as well, or better, than a man, could mean the difference between life and death.

Self-mutilation, at least in the way we think of it today, nearly always has either psychological or religious reasoning behind it.

Gratian Gasparri

04-14-2006, 08:45 PM

I'm on lesson number four right now. My instructor in Barbara Stretton. Apart from all the extra junk mail I receive, I have found the course really good. I have a number of non-fiction publishing credits. I took the course to learn how to write fiction. I mentioned this to my instructor in my introductory letter.

Recently I tried to weasel out of writing fiction for a couple of the bigger projects. My instructor gently, but firmly, called me on it. She reminded me that my non-fiction idea was good, however, I could probably write it and find it a publisher without her help.

She strongly suggested I stick to fiction in course since this is what I set out to accomplish and this is where I need help. She was right.

majiklmoon

04-14-2006, 09:26 PM

I'm having the hardest time writing from this stupid prompt. Grrrrr. I'm getting cranky!

Gratian Gasparri - good for you for sticking to it! And good for your instructor for helping to keep you on track

editing to say: woo hoo...assignment 1 finished and emailed

Gratian Gasparri

04-16-2006, 01:48 AM

editing to say: woo hoo...assignment 1 finished and emailed

They let you email your assigments?

Inspired

04-16-2006, 03:10 AM

Some instructors take assignments via e-mail. Ask student services if yours does, if you want to do the same.

Personally, I've needed all the extra time.

majiklmoon

04-16-2006, 03:37 AM

They let you email your assigments?

yes, they are beta-ing a new program and certain instrusctors are working via email. I'm exceptionally excited because I HATE going to the post office - color me LAZY

stormie

04-17-2006, 03:31 AM

yes, they are beta-ing a new program and certain instrusctors are working via email. I'm exceptionally excited because I HATE going to the post office - color me LAZY

...and cost-conscious. I'd rather use email anyday!

majiklmoon

04-17-2006, 04:18 AM

...and cost-conscious. I'd rather use email anyday!

LOL you said it...i was just trying to not sound cheap ;)

majiklmoon

04-25-2006, 06:27 PM

well, i got my assignment back and the comments were helpful. I need to work on POV - I tend to switch.

I need to balance the dialogue with the action. One thing she said is I left more questions than answers, but I was kind of going for that. She may not have liked it, but I'm happy because it's what I was trying for lol.

In any event, she sent me a thing to read on POV and another one entitled Show - Don't Tell. So I'll read those and work on my next assignment

rockenrollen

07-21-2006, 02:38 AM

I had the pleasure of Having Ruby Saunders as my instructor..And several times She called me out directly in her comments for not applying myself..
Also, gave many well placed and constructive comments... This was in the late 80's/early 90's I have always been proud of my certificate of completion..and included it many times in the early part of my career. The Books by Mr. Wyndham changed how I wrote and shaped how I teach creative writing....I have all of the work that I completed as part of my porfolio... Unless it has changed in the last 10 or so years..I would recommend it 100%
Folks everything is what you make it.
Joel

LizzieGirl

07-23-2006, 05:37 AM

I'm on lesson 6. Trinka Enell.

Personally I can't say enough good things about them.

Come the new year I'm going to have an article published on the site. Jan even told me some other places I could submit the article to get more then one writing credit for it.

I really like it. My friends have said they can see that my writing has impoved and I think it has too. I also am more confident in myself. Plus I would have never tried to publish my article had I not taken the course so, I say it's all worth it to me.

shellgo

07-31-2006, 10:29 PM

Hello, I am on lesson 8 at ICL and my instructor is Buffy Silverman. Her critique of my previous lessons has strengthened my writing ( in my own opinion, anyway). She has encouraged me to revise two of my previous lessons for submission to a magazine. Maybe I will be published one day, maybe not, but I am glad I took the course. By the way, I paid for the course through their payment plan. At one point, during an illness, money was tight. I called up the 800 number and they were very willing to make further arrangements to extend the payment plan and gave me extra time to finish an assignment. They were very friendly through it - no pushing me to send money right then. I was skeptical when I signed up and it has delivered everything it promised.

RainbowDragon

08-05-2006, 10:34 PM

They have a good standing with the Better Business Bureau. I have no experience with them personally except receiving several copies of the test in the mail (they are persistent), but anytime a company is listed online at www.bbb.org (http://www.bbb.org) it can give you a good idea ahead of time whether you need to think twice (or more than twice!) before considering any kind of professional relationship.

stormie

08-05-2006, 10:49 PM

Several months ago, just out of curiousity, I took their "test." Received a glowing letter about how I could take their advanced courses. I decided not too. Received a phone call from a very nice teacher from ICL. Still said no. Today I received another letter, saying they'd cut the cost of the advanced course for me in half. So, maybe if one waits long enough....

They are above-board, as others have noted, and reputable, and good. I just would rather continue to read all the books I can on writing. That's how I got started.

TesubCalle

08-06-2006, 10:10 AM

Wow, e-mail beta trial for ICL? Wish that was around when I was taking it, too. I hated mailing off those bulky assignments. But I suppose it is good practice for the real deal of having those mail-outs to real publishers and those SASEs.

I took the test about nine years ago, was told I passed and had potential. I got compliments about a story that related a true event in my life, which was about a visit I'd taken to a candy factory as a child.

It was many years later that I committed to the shortened course that was less expensive.

Truly, I don't think I learned much more than I already knew about writing, but I did appreciate lessons in things like query letters, researching the market you want to write for (children's magazines, in my case) formatting and just generally focusing on children's issues and interests.

Jane Landreth was my instructor, and while I think she could have been much more ruthless in her editing of my pieces, she was quick to point out small errors that I'd overlooked, and even let me know that I'd done a POV shift that wasn't in keeping with the original flow in the first short story assignment I handed in.

I was never asked to re-do an assignment. I don't know if this would have been different if I'd had another instructor. Yes, these instructors 'mark up' the assignment. Jane did it with discreet blue writing. Some comments were positive from 'good' to 'great!'. Other notes let me know a particular word, perhaps, wasn't the best to use in that particular instance, or a new paragraph break would be appropriate.

Overall, I'd say I was satisfied with the course. I was asked if I wanted to enroll in the 'expert' course, or whatever they call it, and told that only a select few are invited to sign up for that one. I felt this was perhaps another marketing ploy, and it would have cost me over $700, which I didn't have at my disposal. The deadline to apply for that specialized attention came and went. I haven't heard from them since.

(Though I do admit it would be nice to have that Magazine Market guide on an annual basis if I ever really got down to writing children's stories in earnest.)

Chandini

08-14-2006, 12:00 AM

I am contemplating signing up for the advanced course and I'm wondering if it is worth the $650.00. I completed a book outline and the first three chapters of a YA novel as my last assignment of the first course and I'd love to keep going. I recieved a brochure from ICL about the advanced course and it looks like the first 3 lessons are a repeat of the beginner's course Assignment 10.

Has anybody had any experience with the advanced course? How is it different from paying for a professional critique? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.
Chandini

stormie

08-14-2006, 02:02 AM

Hi Chandini, and welcome to the boards!

Read my post above. They offered me half-off the $650 when I didn't sign up right away. (Actually, it was about six months later, after I passed the test and was considered advanced placement.) So, I guess good things come to those who wait!

PS. I didn't sign up anyway.

wyntermoon

08-14-2006, 06:18 AM

I took the test the day before I found this board, this thread has helped a great deal! After reading your posts, however, I'm not sure if I should wait for the coming discount (LOL) or jump in while my enthusiasm is at a high point. Hmmm, perhaps I should wait and see if I'm accepted yet... ;)

pocketmerlin

09-21-2006, 03:02 AM

I have toyed with the idea of taking this course for a few months. My experience has been pretty much the same as most on here, took the test, received a few letters, was offered cheaper condensed course. It is good to hear all of the good experiences....I have looked online and haven't been able to find negative posts...tons of negative posts about other distance schools. I may go ahead and try.

Rane

09-21-2006, 06:28 AM

I am on my 4th lesson now taking this course, and I absolutely love it. It has definitely kept me motivated to write, and I love the feedback I get from my instructor.

I have taken TONS of writing courses (I love to learn!) and I would say that this one is probably my favorite. It isn't boring....the learning material is fun to read, and the assignments keep me on track.

pocketmerlin

09-21-2006, 07:25 AM

Now if I take the course I have someone close to home who can answer my frantic calls for help.

AbbyJoy

09-22-2006, 02:27 AM

I am on the 5th assignment of the Special Publishing Course. I waited to sign up and was offered this course for half the amount, as well. I'd recommend them to any serious writer. My instructor has been immensely helpful--and is always available to answer any questions I have about writing.
Go for it!

Rane

09-22-2006, 07:05 AM

Now if I take the course I have someone close to home who can answer my frantic calls for help.

I'd be more than happy to help. :)

KTC

10-05-2006, 03:35 AM

Bumping this up...

Jamesaritchie

05-25-2007, 07:49 PM

Since listing writing courses, workshops, books you've read on writing, etc. is definitely mentioned in the ICL courses as a no-no --
gran

This bothers me more than a little. It's true you shouldn't mention writing books you've read, but every editor I know wants to hear about any important workshops or courses you've taken.

If it's a legitimate course or workshop, it can open serious doors. I can't imagine any logical reason why ICL would tell writers not to mention this in a query letter.

Button

05-26-2007, 05:26 PM

I don't think ICL said anything about it themselves, but some editors admit they kind of cringe at the thought of knowing that the manuscript could be an ex-assignment. Authors debate about this idea, because a few that I know actually do mention they are an ICL graduate and they do very well.

I don't know why editors would feel funny getting material from someone who bothered to take a course like this. The assignments are fine, helpful. My instructor really does let me know when I screwed up but that's cool with me. :) It's just like a number of other courses, it's just a different 'style' I suppose one would say. Certainly not questionable, some people like it and others don't.

Anyway, I don't know why there's a hush about the course when sending out queries. I don't know if I would mention I just got started with ICL but once you've graduated I don't know if that's a problem. Saying you are still on the ICL program might indicate that you haven't completed, and possibly learned what you should know.

Many of the writers and editors for the magazines for children have taken this course. I'm pretty sure they won't mind knowing you're a fellow graduate.

Fern

05-27-2007, 03:58 AM

Probably just depends on the editor. I have seen guidelines which stated "the worst thing you can tell me is that your submission was an ICL assignment." I don't remember where, exactly, I saw those guidelines or which magazine it was. I do remember it was some place where they give you a little extra input from editors. . .not just run of the mill guidelines.

That is not to say it was a put down of ICL. . . more so an indication they wanted something original from the writer that was "all" the writer's own work.

I know you didn't say you were submitting a past assignment.

pam

06-05-2007, 06:47 AM

This bothers me more than a little. It's true you shouldn't mention writing books you've read, but every editor I know wants to hear about any important workshops or courses you've taken.

Who are these editors? I've never heard this.

Ageispanther

10-24-2007, 03:27 AM

I know this is an old thread, but I am on my fourth assignment in the course. My instructor is Rhea Beth Ross, and she is excellent. I have learned a lot so far. I paid 600 dollars for the course and I think it is worth every penny.

I will be signing up for their other course for children writing and also their courses for writing for adults.

Best Wishes,
Ageis

rhymegirl

10-25-2007, 04:08 AM

I didn't read all of the responses here but I can tell you what I know.

Years ago I met some people and we formed a local writer's group. One of the women told me about this Institute of children's literature ad she had seen in a magazine. Apparently you had to send in something you'd written in order to qualify to take their course. They had said you had to show promise (good writing ability) in order to be accepted. She was dubious about this place so she purposely wrote the worst possible piece she could write. And got accepted. And they said GOOD things about what she wrote.

She didn't sign up and I wouldn't either.

willfs

12-26-2007, 06:22 AM

I have also taken and passed their test but I don't want to spend several hundred dollars for their course. A few posts on here said something about learning through this forum. Does ICL offer cheaper courses that would still be of value to a big time newbie? If I can learn from this forum, what is the best way to do so? Any advice on other free online sources that could help me become a better writer? I have a great education, great ideas, and a few drafts. I have only been writing for a few months.

cwgranny

12-30-2007, 01:33 AM

Actually that's interesting about courses, the editors I've talked to have specifically said they DON'T want to hear about your community college courses, ICL courses, writer's workshop learning, etc. If you have an MFA in children's literature, that's mildly interesting, but otherwise, they just don't want to hear about any of it -- including conferences. The only time that changes and courses open doors is if you were TAUGHT BY the editor or met the editor at a conference, or your instructor at the class/workshop/conferences/etc said, "You should send this to Edda Editor and tell her I recommended it -- she's known me for years."

Otherwise, editors I've talked to (and, well, it's been kind of a lot) say they don't want to hear about your classes, they want to see what you've learned by the quality of your submission. They're buying your product, not your education.

Favored_Dahl

02-01-2008, 02:15 AM

Another student of ICL here. I am still a n00b in the publishing world and I have found that this course has been a wonderful entrance into learning how to freelance write. I work at a pace I am comfortable with and I really have benefited from the one on one attention. I was "scolded" for a lesson submitted incorrectly and told to resubmit. I have found all the constructive criticism quite helpful and my writing has greatly improved! Also, non-fiction was always so daunting to me but now I feel quite comfortable venturing into non-fiction writing. I write my instructor personal letters asking her specific questions in order to get what it is I want from the course and she has been very good at answering all my questions. I took the payment plan option and it was not difficult financially to handle. I have learned how to write query letters, how to research magazines, how to write my story with a magazine in mind and many other helpful topics. Also, the material offered is quality material, imho.

Lisa F

02-02-2008, 06:45 PM

I did the test when I was 17, and so did my best friend. We both worked hard on our test entry. I got in, she didn't. Of course I didn't have the money to take the course. Years later I called and talked to someone about the course. I mentioned I took the test when I was 17 and passed. They still had my name (maiden of course) in the system. They said once you pass you are always accepted. I have a friend who is an award winning author. She took the ICL course and said it helped her a lot. I've thought about it. I would like the feedback. I'm also considering Anastasia Suen's course.

Jennymomof4

02-02-2008, 07:48 PM

I took the course in the early 90's and my instructor was Patricia Calvert. I'll be blunt~ before the course I was unpublished. I didn't even know how to market a manuscript and didn't know the word query. Shortly after the program, I was published locally and had many more articles published with that same magazine over the next 10 years. IMO it was worth every penny and I had the best instructor ever. She gave constructive criticism and pushed me to do my best. I may take another course someday.

twnkltoz

04-06-2008, 08:48 AM

What does it take to get a "degree" in this course? I know a woman who claims to have a writing degree from ICL, but her writing is atrocious. Do you automatically get the degree when you complete the assignments, no matter how good or bad you are?

cwgranny

04-06-2008, 06:05 PM

ICL doesn't give degrees. In order to pass the course, you must, by the end of the course, produce a manuscript that can be submitted with a reasonable chance of acceptance. This can include a puzzle submitted to a small church Sunday School paper or a craft submitted to a small magazine -- it doesn't have to be a submission to Highlights or Boys' Life and it doesn't mean that everything (or even most things) produced by the person are ready for submission.

Some people do not really benefit from distance learning. The person may reach that marketable manuscript through some pretty stern directives from an instructor but not really have internalized the things she needs to be a strong consistent writer. While other folks grab the course and run with it, reading, practicing, studying the market, absorbing the critiques with enthusiasm and grow as a stunning rate. I've had students that were dragged through the course and students who really made it a focus and did fantastic work by the end. The stuff you need is in the course, but it's not an injection -- it is really all up to the student in the end.

Sometimes you can't tell at the beginning who will benefit most. I've had students who were strong solid writers when they started the course but didn't have a clue about writing FOR CHILDREN, so they produced great solid prose but it was totally unpublishable. But when someone has been told she's a great writer all her life, she can be completely resistant to new input -- and sometimes those very students don't grow a bit in the course. While othertimes I have students who start off with very shakey skills but really dig in and end up doing great work independent of my nagging. You cannot always tell at the beginning who will do the work and who is open to change -- folks will surprise you.

You get out of the course what you put in. But to complete the course successfully, you just need to have produced one piece with a strong chance of publication -- it's not a "now you have a degree in wonderful" kind of thing. Though, some of my students really do have a degree in wonderful :-)

twnkltoz

04-08-2008, 02:17 AM

Thanks, Granny!

dlenee

07-25-2008, 05:55 PM

For those who've finished the Children's Writing course....How long did it take you to finish all of the lessons?

Disa

07-26-2008, 04:42 AM

Well, I completed the writing for Children and Teens course in 1996. I think it took me the whole two years. You can go at your own pace, but I had a 2 year old when I started and I worked full time.

I have to add to the chorus of those who sing the praises of the ICL. My instructor was Constance McAllister. I couldn't have asked for a better instructor. She gave me plenty of constructive criticism and showed me that I actually did have strong points. When the course was over, I really missed corresponding with her.

I was new to writing when I started and I feel the course really helped me. I learned a lot about writing and marketing my work. I didn't have the internet then so I'm pretty sure the course did take years off of my learning window. I wouldn't have really known where I was going or how to get there without the course.

Though none of the children's stories I ever submitted were accepted for publication, I found that as I branched out to other genres, the lessons learned about marketing still applied.

In addition, I ended up with several stories that I wrote as assignements that I still have today. I am free to pull them out at anytime, revamp them all with what I've learned over the years and start submitting them again.

I just don't see how anyone could go wrong with this course. You will get out of it what you put into it.

P.S. I did know two people who were not accepted into the course after taking the initial test. So, it does happen

dlenee

07-26-2008, 06:03 AM

Thank you Disa.

I submitted my aptitude test a couple of days ago, so I'm waiting to hear from them. I don't think that I'll have a problem passing it though. By the time they grade it, I pay, and they send the course materials, it could be a month by the time I can start. I really haven't found any other courses that I feel comfortable with at this time. From what I've read on this forum and elsewhere, the price is reasonable. In fact, I expected it to be more.

Many people have said that they didn't find out the price until they started the enrollment process. I don't know how long their 'Contact Us' email link has been on the site, but that's what I did. I emailed them one evening and they responded the morning of the next day.

For those who'd like current info: Our tuition is $677 if you
pay in full at the onset of the course. If you wish to use our extended
plan it consists of a $59 registration fee and then 12 monthly payments
of $54. Tuition is totally comprehensive and includes all materials
and instruction.

Disa

07-26-2008, 06:12 AM

You're welcome. Good luck with it. It's cool they have a website now. The worst part of the whole thing for me was that we had to do everything via snail mail. Waiting was the hardest part. It's probably much more streamlined now.

dlenee

07-26-2008, 07:48 AM

The email that I received indicated that they'll get back to me within the next two to three weeks. I hope that it's sooner rather than later. Yes, I would imagine that waiting for assignment critiques via snail mail would be difficult. I wonder if the wait would be just as long now since the instructor can only work so fast. Hopefully, I will find out. :)

Did they suggest waiting to get the last assignment's evaluation before moving on to the next one? I guess that I could rework the old assignments while I wait. What did you do?

David Goldschmidt

07-28-2008, 09:41 PM

Hello, it also took me about 2 years, with a mix of distractions along the way. Folks I've known have taken anywhere from 9 months to 3 years, depending on what you as a student put into it. It's been a few years since I completed the course, so I'm not sure if the format's changed -- probably not too much.

After you submit an assignment, there are number of other writing activities to dive into. And for most assignments I remember, they don't build on the previous assignment.

And I always found my instructor's comments to be extremely helpful!

Best regards,
DaveG

Disa

07-29-2008, 04:55 AM

Did they suggest waiting to get the last assignment's evaluation before moving on to the next one? I guess that I could rework the old assignments while I wait. What did you do?

I can't remember if I started on the next one or waited, but there is quite a bit of reading material to tide you over, if you're so inclined.

Keep us posted! I'm excited for you!

D

dlenee

07-30-2008, 07:19 AM

I haven't heard anything yet about my aptitude test. I emailed them to ask if assignments can be emailed, rather than us mail and I was told that once I get my aptitude test back and enroll, I can call to request an instructor who accepts emailed assignments.

I imagine that it will take me a while to finish since I'm pretty busy with my day job.

Disa

08-29-2008, 04:31 AM

Any word yet, dlenee?

dlenee

08-29-2008, 07:16 AM

Yes, I started the course and sent in my first assignment this past Monday. The first instructor that I was assigned did not accept email assignments, so I asked for one that did. I'm hoping to get the first assignment back next week. I'm working on the second assignment now. When I get the first one back with the instructor's comments, I'll continue my revisions. In the meantime, I've been reading a lot and learning what I can from various resources.

I see from their website that they have some workshops that can be done at home. If all goes well, I may take one or two of those as well. I don't think it would hurt. I also read that they have an advanced children's writing course that can be taken, but the instructor has to recommend you. I didn't see it on their list of courses on the website and can't remember where I read it. It may be in one of the comments from some of the authors in one of the books they sent, like 'From Inspiration to Publication'.

So far, this has been interesting and fun. I've already learned some things and I haven't received any instructor comments yet. I am hoping to learn A LOT by the time I'm finished.

Thanks for asking!

Disa

08-30-2008, 09:08 PM

Oh how exciting! I'm sure you will learn alot. Good luck with it!

dlenee

08-31-2008, 03:14 AM

Thank you! I'm enjoying it so far.

Disa (or anyone that took the ICL course), are you actively writing and submitting items for publication now?

Favored_Dahl

09-03-2008, 03:45 AM

*waves hand*

I'm finishing up the last assignment of the course (I chose the first 3 chapters of a children's book). I have a magazine article all set for submission (my instructor encouraged me to submit to a non paying magazine but I would prefer a payment, some small payment, even $15 as I am tired of writing for free). I've been struggling with where to submit though. I'm concerned about rejection...argh.

dlenee

09-03-2008, 04:03 AM

That's great! Go for it!

Did she/he say why 'non-paying'?

Favored_Dahl

09-03-2008, 04:43 AM

I didn't ask, I guess in her eyes being a n00b is going to make it more difficult for me to submit for payment. This is a non fiction article (written on purpose as I figured it would have a greater potential of being picked up by a paying market).

My last assignment is due Sept 24th and I have barely began scratching out the rough outline of each chapter. I wish I was a full time writer!

dlenee

09-04-2008, 07:29 PM

I just received my first assignment back. She made some good points that I'll take into account on my current and all future assignments. I'm going to rewrite the first one tonight. She sent a letter that included more info about herself in response to my biography I sent with the first assignment. She also added more detail on improving, but also commented on good points about my story. I'm going to learn a lot in this course!

I subscribed to Children's Writers eNews last week and received my first edition this morning. I saw there were several current and former ICL students who have recently been published by a newspaper, Spider, LadyBug, and a picture book with HarperCollins. One person said that Highlights for Children sold reprint rights to Harcourt School Publishers. This bit of news is motivating!

Disa

09-15-2008, 04:54 AM

Thank you! I'm enjoying it so far.

Disa (or anyone that took the ICL course), are you actively writing and submitting items for publication now?

Sorry I didn't see this post earlier. Yes I'm actively writing and submitting for publication. Just finished a short story in the past 5 minutes. However, it isn't children's fiction. I haven't written anything for children/teens in a few years. I may go back to it eventually, but I'm enjoying the paranormal realm at the moment. There isn't enough time in the day to do everything all at once.

I'm glad you are enjoying the course. All the marketing you will learn is transferable to any genre :)

Good luck!

dlenee

09-15-2008, 08:03 AM

Thanks! I'm currently trying to read as much child and young adult material as I can while I let my second assignment 'stew' a bit.

Disa

10-04-2008, 05:20 PM

Dahl did you finish your last assignment?

How's it all going now, dlenee? Are you still excited?

I remember times I felt discouraged towards the middle but there was no internet then and I didn't know any encouraging or supportive writers. Hang in there, guys. :)

dlenee

10-04-2008, 06:05 PM

I'w working on assignment 3 now. Yes, I'm still excited. I'm reading lots of children/teen books too! I'm thankful for the internet and email. It would be much harder without it. I send my assignments via email. It still takes longer than I'd like (10 days), but it's probably better than usps. Thanks for asking.

How are you?

Tracy11

11-03-2008, 07:44 PM

I have enrolled in ICL's program and am anxiously awaiting my first assignment. My instructor's name is Maureen Hinds. Has anyone heard of her? I did a Google search and did not receive any relevant information.

Also, just wondering if there is anyone out there from Canada who's taken this course and if so, have they had any luck in publishing their work?

Tracy

dlenee

11-03-2008, 08:23 PM

I've never heard of her, but I haven't heard of the others either. Is she in the US? My instructor is in Canada. I searched on my local library's website for her published books, but came up empty.

I'm just about ready to send in assignment 4. I am enjoying this class and learning a lot.

cwgranny

11-03-2008, 11:13 PM

My instructor's name is Maureen Hinds. Has anyone heard of her? I did a Google search and did not receive any relevant information.

It looks like she writes primarily for educational book publishers. Many educational books (such as those put out by Enslow) are sold directly to libraries and schools. They don't require the promo push of commercial trade publishers so the authors aren't quite so high profile -- though writing for educational publishers can be nice steady money for a working writer. From her bio on the Institute website, it looks like she is branching out since she's wrote a young adult novel "Bruised" that placed in the Write it Now competition.

Scrappydawn

11-13-2008, 11:45 PM

I got the ad out of American Baby magazine and thought it was something I'd like to try. I sent the form in.......7 WEEKS AGO, and have yet to receive anything from them. The ad doesn't show a website or phone #, just the address. This is the first time I've actually tried looking for them on the web. I stumbled on this site and saw all of these comments about it and thought I'd vent a little. Maybe I'll try again.

wyntermoon

11-13-2008, 11:54 PM

Here's their website (http://www.institutechildrenslit.com/), Scrappydawn, and their contact (http://www.institutechildrenslit.com/index_wc.htm) information.

Welcome to Absolute Write! :)

Scrappydawn

11-14-2008, 12:09 AM

Thanks wyntermoon! I appreciate the info.

dlenee

11-14-2008, 01:13 AM

good luck scrappydawn!

You'll be able to take the test online if you want. I printed out the downloadable test and used MS Word for my answers. I then copied and pasted my answers on their online test.

Scrappydawn

11-20-2008, 06:19 AM

Wow, it's been a few days since I've been on the computer. I hadn't realized. Thanks dlenee. I will try that. I still haven't heard from them, though. I got on the website and gave them my email address, etc. Maybe it's a sign. Haha.

dlenee

11-20-2008, 08:03 PM

It probably got lost in the mail. If you take the test online, I think you'll here from them in two weeks. I think it was two weeks before I heard from them.

Good luck!

fancybutterfly

12-17-2008, 05:23 PM

I am a student of the Institute and have nothing but great things to say! My instructor was fantastic! She offered both constructive critism and praise.
I recently was accepted into the the advanced course. Was it necessary to enroll in it? Maybe not. But it keeps me writing, on track, and I have an 'editor' to assist me. That's all I'm looking for. Publication, that's up to me; Not the the Institute. Their role is to HELP me. It takes two when working with something the the Institute. The instructor and student must develop a working relationship. The instructor must be honest, the student open-minded. I had one disagreement with the instructor. Nothing major, or blow out of porportion; but a professional difference. Turns out, she was right.

Fancybutterfly

awhyley

01-02-2009, 08:46 PM

I took the test, and passed (whether that's a real accomplishment, I don't know); however, due to the current situation, I e-mailed them to let them know that I wouldn't be signing up at this time. They understood and accpeted the news very well. Haven't heard from them since. I hope to sign up in March though. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

dlenee

01-02-2009, 09:30 PM

I'm on assignment 6 now. I've written two stories outside of the course. I submitted one to a contest.

morningsong

01-02-2009, 11:52 PM

I am currently taking the magazine course and I am very happy with it. My teacher has never told me my writing was perfect and she doesn't hesitate to correct me. She tells me what is good about it and she tells me what needs improvement. I am learning a lot.

Miss Green

01-06-2009, 03:12 AM

I just signed up about a week ago. This discussion board was actually very helpful to me in making my decision.. I am interested in other types of writing as well, but I thought that writing for children would be a good place to start.

Anyway, my teacher is Mary E. Furlong. Has anybody had her?? It seems that the right teacher for you is so important in this course.. I was wondering if anyone had any feedback.

dlenee

01-06-2009, 03:48 AM

I don't think I've heard anything about her. Although, I don't usually pay attention when people mention their instructor's name.

I agree that the right teacher is important. I'm happy with mine.

Did you get an instructor that accepts email assignments? I really like that. I called Student Services when I received my letter of introduction from my instructor. She didn't, so I switched to one that did...Gillian Richardson.

Good luck to you. :)

Miss Green

01-06-2009, 10:18 AM

Thank you! I don't know yet if she accepts e-mail assignments, if she doesn't then I'll probably switch too.

Your instructor has some good stuff on her in a google search.. I couldn't really find any info/books on mine so that's why I thought I'd ask.

dlenee

01-06-2009, 06:32 PM

I entered your instructor's name on Amazon.com and some of her work was listed there.

mware01

01-11-2009, 11:38 AM

Thanks to everyone for all the great info. I've been waiting to finish my current adult (not pornographic, just not for kids) manuscript before I submitted.
However, after reading this forum I think I'll send it in right away.

Also, I'm re-posting the what seems to be the current cost, as I had to search a little to find it:

For those who'd like current info: Our tuition is $677 if you
pay in full at the onset of the course. If you wish to use our extended
plan it consists of a $59 registration fee and then 12 monthly payments
of $54. Tuition is totally comprehensive and includes all materials
and instruction.

Norligh

01-20-2009, 09:51 PM

Hm- I might do this. I like the payment plan... it works for me :)

dlenee

01-22-2009, 06:21 PM

Hm- I might do this. I like the payment plan... it works for me :)

Good luck with it, Norligh. It was a good decision for me. I'm on lesson 7 now. I'm getting through it and learning quite a bit.

Dipstick

01-28-2009, 09:52 AM

Hi all,

I wanted to thank you all for your input as I too passed the "test" and am considering taking the classes.

Granny, priceless input throughout, thank you.

Interestingly enough, while reading this list of notes on the subject, I got my 1st intro call from them, and the following are my comments concerning my opinion of the Institute thus far and why:
I inquired about becoming a children's writer, and they couple me with Ms. Hinds, who is apparently anything but a successful children' author. Seems to me to be a gross lack of the personal, custom tailored, touch they promise... but maybe it is just me. Regardless, if you want to know how to succeed at playing football, you don't go to a hockey coach... and if you want to make a sale, you key in on the customer's expressed interests, and focus your efforts THERE, not somewhere else.
Speaking of sales, the follow up call I received was from a lady who really was not interested in discussing the concerns I had, or answering any of my questions, as a matter of fact, she could not answer any of them because she had no knowledge... her form letter answer to everything I asked was call the institute and they will address that issue. I still haven't a clue why she called in the first place as she really told me nothing but that she was from the Institute.
The most damaging to the potential of selling me on the program... the person who called to motivate me to sign up (I assume), said that she herself had never taken the course, was not interested in writing, had no personal experience with the organization of any kind, and really was caught off balance by all of my questions. In other words, she had no clue, about anything but my name and number, who my instructor was to be, and how much the program costs. She was anything but a motivation to sign up.Granny, you said that you are / were an instructor for the institute, IIRC... please pass my comments on to the person who can address them internally, as they are THE issues which have caused me the greatest resistance to signing up, thus far.

That said, Thanks to the personal testimonies of all of you wonderful people, I probably will still sign up, as ANY input from a successful published author is invaluable and worth the $700 price tag they have hanging from their sleeve.

To those who, like I did, find this forum while searching for the Institute in combination with the idea of a scam, I would say that there is always the money back guarantee if you are not satisfied.

Money is tight for me now, but I will be signing up asap.

In the mean time, it is great to know that I finally found a forum by serious and successful authors for wannabees like me.

Thanks everyone!

dlenee

01-28-2009, 06:34 PM

Good luck Dipstick. :)

If you do sign up with ICL and don't like your instructor, you can switch to a different one. I switched before doing the first lesson because the first instructor did not accept email assignments. I've heard of others that have switched after a couple of assignments and others who've switched half-way through the course.

I didn't have the experience with salespeople, like you did. They don't sound much like salespeople. At least you did some research. I did as well, and found this forum, plus a few other sites.

Dipstick

01-28-2009, 08:25 PM

Yes, my search gave me this forum, which is where it ended. I own a business and can ID a valid complaint and a not so valid one, and being a person who hates a conflict, I understand not pushing for a refund, but I also know that if a company has been around this long and they STILL have almost no negative listings on Google, which is to say that it takes a serious effort to find ANYTHING negative about them, then they are not too bad after all, in this day and age of internet trash talking, they can't be.

The fact that so many published authors are listed here in this thread in one form or another who are alumni of the course testifies to me of its success.

I do not think that I am a bloomin' idiot when it comes to writing, spelling maybe (Thank God for spell check!) but at one time years ago I actually won awards for my writing and poetry, but being very out of practice, I could use the touch of a master to chisel away the fodder that has built up.

To paraphrase another member, all you wonderful people have a combined power that equals if not surpasses any single institution, so between the both of you, I hope to be well on my way to a pulitzer! I have a LOT of reading ahead of me... my goal for 2009 is to read the entirety of this forum's posts.

Want to hear a good joke? I'm a writer who hates to read! Is that funny, or what!

dlenee

01-28-2009, 10:51 PM

Have you been to their Writers Retreat forum? There's a lot of support there. It's open to students and non-students.

Dipstick

01-29-2009, 02:09 AM

I have not.... the subject began for me about 2 weeks ago, and I just sent off the test and figured I'd be turned down, though I hoped for better. I guess I ought to check it out, so thanks for the tip.

Writerightaway

02-04-2009, 10:13 PM

Hello

I am also considering enrolling in the course & also found this forum through researching the Institute before I decided.

They had already advised me (with my acceptance) to use e-mail because I am outside the US. The instructor they have assigned to me is Renee Heiss.

AKB

03-14-2009, 12:06 AM

Hi,
I enrolled in the ICL children's writing course in April 2008 and found my instructor extremely helpful. While I didn't agree with all comments received on my assignments, overall, I do believe the input made my writing stronger. So, in that regard, I have only good things to say about ICL.

However, shortly after beginning the course I stopped working full time believing I could financially do so. However, with the market turning south and my kids' college funds going south with it, I need to go back. With the prospect of going back to work on the horizon and my earnest desire to finish the YA novel I'm working on, I decided to stop the course. HERE's the rub: I sent what I thought was a very cordial letter to my instructor explaining why I needed to stop and telling her how great I thought she was. Now, I did not expect a response, other - than perhaps - a small note wishing me well. But really, I expected nothing. Unfortunately, I did get something - my original letter sent back to me. No comments, no "good luck", nothing.

Maybe it's just sour grapes on my part by I do think that was very unprofessional.

Again, I did think my instructor's comments were very helpful so I still don't regret my initial decision to enroll. Given the overall experience, though, I'm not sure I'd enroll in another one of ICL's courses.

emilykbru

03-15-2009, 07:13 PM

Hello all!

First time I visited this site (came up in a Google search) and I loved reading everyone's replies. I've decided to go ahead and take the course after being accepted a few years ago. Never could because I was still in college and all my money was going towards rent and such, but now that I have an actual "real world job" I can afford to do this. It seems like a good time for me (some money saved, flexible job hours, etc.) so I'm gonna do it and a big part of the reason is because of all the replies on here. Everyone seems open and honest and overall, there is not a lot of bad stuff to say. Looking forward to getting started! Thank you all again!

cwgranny

03-16-2009, 03:06 AM

Now, I did not expect a response, other - than perhaps - a small note wishing me well. But really, I expected nothing. Unfortunately, I did get something - my original letter sent back to me. No comments, no "good luck", nothing.

That is really weird and definitely not "standard procedure" -- One of my students had to drop recently (for financial reasons) and I sent her a letter wishing her well and telling her to be sure to drop me a note if she gets back into writing someday and has any questions I can help with. So, sending back your letter is definitely not what usually happens and I cannot imagine why it happened in your case. I'm sorry it did...how dreadful!

AKB

03-16-2009, 03:41 PM

Thanks, CW.

What was even stranger was the response I received from ICL after I sent the institute an email expressing my disappointment.

Because I thought I had developed a cordial relationship with my instructor, included with my letter advising of my discontinuation with the course, was a short story I had written. I noted I included it ONLY because I thought she might find it entertaining - not for comment or anything like that. When I received my original letter back, I also received back that short story.

The email response I received from ICL said there was a note in the file advising that my "manuscript was returned at my request" and that if my original letter was included with that ms it was probably a mistake. My added disappointment was that it didn't sound like the instructor was even approached to provide comment on why she did what she did.

In any case, I've probably written more than anyone wants to hear about this subject so I'll leave it here.

Take care, all.

cwgranny

03-16-2009, 05:00 PM

Oh, well, I do apologize for it. There are a lot of hands that go into processing things for the Institute and it only takes one goof to make a big messy pile up. But I agree that that sounds abrupt and not very nice and I apologize for it.

It's possible that your instructor never saw the note/story at all if it was read in the office and channeled off to whomever closes records when a student withdraws -- which may have been the point at which the "goof" occured. Instead of sending it on, they sent it to whomever closes out the records and you ended up with it again. Since you had a decent relationship with your instructor, my guess would be that she didn't see your note because we certainly don't sulk or get sniffy when a student has to quit, we usually feel bad for the person.

At any case, however it happened...sorry about that. Sounds like something that wouldn't set well with me either.

christylynn

04-11-2009, 04:04 AM

I don't know if it's a scam or not I have never really checked it out. Im sure though it's probably like everything you have to check it out and do your homework on it.

heyyou229

04-11-2009, 07:29 PM

The title of this company is a little confusing to me because I tend to think young adult is the same as children, so my question is:
Does the Institute of Children's Literature teach you how to write for young adult books or just for kids? I'd like to write a book with chapters and a 300 page range but I'm not sure what they consider children's literature. Young adult is children's literature in my opinion but what do they mean by Institute of Children's Literature? what do they teach?

AKB

04-11-2009, 07:53 PM

Their children's writing course covers all children's literature, including Young Adult. The assignments contained in the course allow you to choose which age group to write for. When I took it, I geared my assignments to the Young Adult age range as that's the age group I wanted to write for professionally. The nice part is you could switch around and get solid feedback on it all.

dlenee

04-11-2009, 09:00 PM

...and another tidbit of info. The course is called Writing for Children and Teens. It's mostly writing for magazines initially. In the last assignment (#10), you have the option of starting a book. There's an advanced magazine course and a book course that you can only take if you're recommended by your instructor.

If you call, they'll answer any questions you have or you can go to the online forum, Writers Retreat. Lots of current and former students frequently visit there....all day...every day. :)

You're not only receiving instruction on writing, but also the business of writing, which is invaluable.

heyyou229

04-12-2009, 08:18 PM

Thanks so much for answering my question AKB and dlenee! :hooray:

Also, do you just so happen to know how much they charge for the Writing and Selling Children's advanced course? I know the first course, Writing for Children and Teens, is $699 but I can't seem to find out how much the advanced course is.

dlenee

04-12-2009, 09:17 PM

No, I don't know. :( I'm sure they'll tell you if you gave them a call though. I'm actually on 6-month leave of absence from ICL at the moment. I enrolled in their sister school, Long Ridge Writers Group, in January because I like writing for adults better. I was busy at work and didn't feel that I was giving both courses enough attention.

AKB

04-12-2009, 11:02 PM

Unfortunately I don't know the cost, either. Good luck with the courses.

heyyou229

04-13-2009, 09:38 AM

Thanks! I'll give them a call tomorrow :)

heyyou229

04-16-2009, 02:52 AM

OK. I took the test yesterday, and when I submitted this came up:
Thank you for submitting your test via the Internet,
We will send an email confirmation on our next business day when your test is transferred to our Evaluation Department. You can expect to hear from us with the results of your Aptitude Test for Children’s Writing in two to three weeks via first class mail.
We appreciate your interest in our program.

I submitted it yesterday but I haven't heard from them yet and they said they would email me today but nothing...How long does it usually take for them to respond with at least an email confirmation? I hope they got it.

dlenee

04-16-2009, 03:18 AM

I looked at my confirmation email and it didn't indicate that I'd hear from them within the next business day. It indicated that I'd hear from them within 2-3 weeks. I took the test online on 7/23/08. I don't recall when I recieved notification of acceptance, but I do have an email of 8/10/08 acknowleging my order/enrollment and stating the materials will be shipped and should be received within 10 days. which I received them on 8/12/08 (I expidited :)). I do know that they notified me of acceptance via postal mail. I called in to find out if the instructor they assigned me to accepted emailed lessons. She didn't so I asked to change and they gave me someone else.

dlenee

04-16-2009, 03:25 AM

My aptitude test email confirmation said this: P.S. Whatever the outcome, we'll promise you this: We will evaluate your test fairly and give you our evaluation within the next two to three weeks.

I just checked...I received my acceptance via us mail on 8/9/08.

heyyou229

04-16-2009, 03:32 PM

Oh OK, thanks. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

KayJae

04-18-2009, 08:46 AM

This is my first post but I thought I would share this information.

I took the aptitude test on 03/27/2009 and received my confirmation email on 04/01/2009. I just received my acceptance letter today in the mail. Along with the name of my instructor and their qualifications. I'm really excited to start the course.

heyyou229

04-18-2009, 09:05 AM

cool. yeah I just got the confirmation email today. so now I'm waiting for the acceptance letter. I know I will get in. :)

thegirlwhowrites

05-08-2009, 02:13 AM

I got a letter stating I passed the test and that I can enroll into the basic, children and teen writing course.
BUT, I want to know if there is anyway I can go ahead and start with the advanced course, Writing and Selling Children's Books, instead?

dlenee

05-08-2009, 04:29 AM

You cannot take the advanced courses unless you're recommended by your instructor after taking Writing for Children and Teens.

Angyl78

06-05-2009, 08:48 PM

Hi! I have to say after reading this post, I am glad I decided to sign up. It's been 6 years since I took the aptitude test and they have been very polite about waiting for me. I think I received a mailer about every 8 months or so. I finally am in a spot where I can write!. :) I have to start with assignment number one, and can't wait.
I did receive a phone call after sending in my paper work for the magazine course, and now will be taking that one and the one for writing books.

willfs

06-27-2009, 10:05 PM

I have taken the test (and passed) for ICL. I have been getting their letters asking me to enroll for several years. I have read up on them in this thread as well as other places. They don't seem like a scam. Their instruction seems to be pretty legit.

However the only thing that bothers me is the test. It just seems like a gimick to get you into their course. I would really like to know if I have potential. I don't think that test is the best way to tell. I wonder if they have that test ("oh, I finally found a way to find out if I have writing potential") to hook people in ("I actually do have potential") and then get them to pay money to get good instruction for something they don't have that much potential to excel in.

I guess every college lets in tons of students who will never really finish or will never really use their degree. But they don't promise it. They don't give you a test (that takes less than an hour to complete) and then say "Hey, you passed this course. We think you have the potential to become a lawyer.. or doctor... or teacher... or businessman." They just offer a degree. You carry all the responsibility for whether or not you are able to handle the courses or fit to enter that career field.

The test is what bothers me. It seems like it has the ability to pull in a lot of people who don't need to be taking the course but need to be spending their money and energy on other things. I would bet there are a lot less expensive and less time consuming ways to find out if you have writing potential than taking the test and giving ICL money and going through their course because they say you have a certain giftedness.

dlenee

06-27-2009, 10:26 PM

ICL offers a money back guarantee. If you're not satisfied, simply request a refund within 60 days of the date of your diploma. It's that simple.

stormie

06-28-2009, 12:34 AM

For me it was the money. I hate spending it needlessly. So years ago I considered ICL, took the test, passed, and received many letters and even a phone call. Instead I went to the library, read as many children's books possible (and still do), read many books on writing, read good websites on writing for children, and practiced. And reading critiques of children's stories helped a lot, too.

I haven't done this, but even posting part of your story on the SYW forums here can be helpful.

Bottom line: I didn't bother with ICL, learned all I could from books, critiques, etc, and got several short stories, one YA book pubbed by a small publisher, and an agent on the strength of my MG novel.

cwgranny

06-28-2009, 02:16 AM

First, there are a lot of excellent roads to publication. The Institute has been a part of some writing journeys (including at least one Newbery Winner that I know of for sure) but there are tons of other folks who took a totally different way.

BUT for the test -- the main point behind it is to find out if a person is at a level where they can be helped by instruction. If someone doesn't know the basics of spelling and grammar. If a person doesn't know how to write coherently in a relatively short passage. Then it would be unfair to even consider letting them take the course -- it's not cheap (though there are a lot of writing opportunities that are much more expensive too). The person needs to demonstrate they learned some things on their own (probably by being readers...just being a reader is such a help in becoming a writer).

As anyone who has ever read a slush pile can attest, there are many folks who want to write for children who don't have much chance of real growth through writing instruction...so the Institute makes sure not to take money from those folks in the first place.

And...sometimes people get coached on the test and later have to get gently let go from the program so (again) they don't spend money on things that don't benefit them. That certainly doesn't make them feel any better than they would have if they failed the test.

I never took the Institute course and I made a living wage at writing. It's definitely not a requirement for publication. Among the published authors I know personally who took the course -- people like Verla Kay and Kelly Milner Hall -- they talk about how much time they saved from what they learned, but I rarely hear a successful author say she just wouldn't have made it without ICL. They accomplished their goals more quickly because they followed a plan mapped out by a lot of writers before them. BUT it's not the only road. And it's not for everyone. Some people really don't learn well from distance learning and might benefit much better from face-to-face learning in college classrooms, conferences, and face-to-face critique. And some people would just rather do it on their own.

So, you gotta look at
* how do you learn best? The ICL program requires that you learn well from reading material and from receiving critique on your writing (written critique -- instructors don't call you) -- so clearly you have to learn well from reading and processing information. If you're more of an auditory learner or hands-on and don't benefit well from writing books -- it easily might not be right for you.

* what are you goals and especially your time frame goals? (For me, I definitely had more time than I had money -- my publishing path was the right one for me, for sure)

* how good are you are creating your own learning system? Some folks rock at this and there are tons and tons of great aids online and in critique groups and at conferences. For others, the structure of a course was a huge help.

* how well can you learn from critique? (Does one critique help you learn a LOT? If so, getting crits from groups and other writers is going to be much better -- and cheaper). Are you good at judging the value of what critique you receive? (Critiques on boards are EXTREMELY uneven, so be sure you can winnow the good from the bad.)

Again, I did fine without the course. Some folks feel it helped them hugely. So, only you know what works for you.

Angyl78

06-28-2009, 08:38 AM

I am currently on assignment two for the course. I have found that a lot of the information they give is what I have been told. "write what you know"
I am writing what I know, but I am also learning little odds and ends. They provide examples that make sense to me.
I don't know if they would work for anyone else. But I understand where I have been going wrong.

willfs

06-28-2009, 09:06 AM

ICL offers a money back guarantee. If you're not satisfied, simply request a refund within 60 days of the date of your diploma. It's that simple.

"And...sometimes people get coached on the test and later have to get gently let go from the program so (again) they don't spend money on things that don't benefit them"

Which are good things that do sell the program to me. I still think there could be some miscommunication about what passing the test means. I have been scammed before and I do not want to go through that again. It seems everyone oversells their product. However, if what granny says is true then that says a lot about ICL.

lilyanaalantar

07-08-2009, 05:35 AM

i have a question about the advanced course: do i still to have to pay for that or no? because that'd would be too much money

cwgranny

07-08-2009, 04:49 PM

None of the courses are free. Any you take have a fee.

lilyanaalantar

07-08-2009, 08:55 PM

ok thanks

Angyl78

07-10-2009, 09:56 AM

Hey! It's great. I just received my first assignment back. It had a lot of good 'suggestions' and some great pointers.
I'm weak on my plots, so it means I'll just have to try harder on the next one.

willfs

07-30-2009, 09:08 PM

Very informative thread. I was wondering if anyone can talk a little more about what the assignments are like. Except for the reading they send, can I do all of it on my pc? How much time will it take up on a weekly basis?

majiklmoon (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/member.php?u=6506) was giving us a play by play on how the course went with her. I was hoping she could continue with that.

Angyl78

08-01-2009, 09:17 AM

Well, the first one for me was using a picture to start my story from.
I actually tossed around a few options for the choices I was given before I finally found one I like.
The second one was using word association.
I found it amazing where one word took me. I ended up with a few story starters, again.
I haven't been putting as much time into it as I want to. I have found that if I stare at one of my assignments for too long I get really frustrated.
I've had about six weeks in between due dates.
I print out my stories to edit, but I send everything by email. Computers are great!!
It really is how much time you put into it. I do research on breaks at work, and keep a pad of scrap paper around to write ideas down as they come across.

willfs

08-04-2009, 07:12 PM

So if I had a lot of time to put into it then it might go faster. If I had less time I might go at a slower pace (but not too slow)???

Anyone who went all the way through it - what are you final thoughts?

I have been recieving mail from them for years. I would like to make sure I get the advanced course at the lower price of 300. I guess I could just call them and tell them. When do classes start?

Angyl78

08-05-2009, 08:21 AM

Basically, you get set up with an instructor and it's one on one. Mine told me when my next assignment is due, and'll do that for each one.
And I just work on it when I can.
I actually started with the magazine course and I'll work up to the novel/book(?) course.
So far I'm learning. There's a lot of extra side assignments and suggestions with each assingment. Plus your instructor/mentor will give you additional work to do/look at/read if they feel you could use the extra information.

dlenee

08-05-2009, 09:27 AM

willfs,

They will not allow anyone to take an advanced course if they have not taken a beginning course yet. In fact, a student cannot take the advanced course unless their beginning course's instructor recommends them for it. Also, if the price is less, it won't be the same course as one that is the full price. A reduced price course will have less assignments.

WriterEm

08-25-2009, 09:03 AM

Hey all!

I haven't gone through all the posts, so some of what I say might be repetitive. If so, I apologize.

I took the test in 1992 and began the courses shortly thereafter. Because of 'life situations' I had to drop out. (Single mom at the time, financial problems, etc.) I couldn't afford the classes, even though the payments were fairly low. (That gives you an idea of my situation at the time.)

They never tried to sue me, to which I was extremely thankful.

Approximately 14 years later I called to see if I could re-enroll in the courses. (I had been writing on my own for years without them, but I wanted to see if I would gain anything by taking the course.)

I was AMAZED to find out that they still had me on file, and that they allowed me start up where I left off... all I had to do was pay a small (re-)startup fee, and continue making the payments.

I loved my instructor! Not only was she very kind and helpful, but she gave me a LOT of confidence... the one thing I am truly lacking.

Not long after I re-started the classes (and finally paid them off!) my father was diagnosed with cancer and had passed away just five months later. I didn't have the heart to write anymore, so I contacted them and told them what had happened.

They put me on leave until I felt that I could start up the classes again.

A year later, I called and told them that I was ready, and for a very small fee (I think it was $35.00 but please don't quote me) I started the classes again.

My only complaint was that they never re-assigned an instructor and just told me to send in my assignment. (Which I did.) I waited for approximately six months and finally got a letter telling me that, because I didn't send in my assignment, (huh?) they were dropping me from the classes.

That really disappointed me!

I'm sure it was just a clerical error, but nevertheless I haven't responded yet. I can't really fault them for this, since they really were wonderful about working with me. And I'm sure, when I get my butt in gear, I'll give them a call and work out the problem. :)

As far as the assignments go... they aren't too complicated or lengthy. If you are an experienced writer the pace might bother you. BUT!! If you are just starting out it's a great way to go.

I've been writing for approximately 10 years now, (on and off) and to me (at this stage of my writing development) the assignments are way too basic. I've received critiques from writers such as yourselves that have been just as helpful as the ones I received from my instructor. I've even submitted one of my ICL stories from class to an online critique group to see what other writers thought of it, and they managed to catch problems that my instructor did not.

Again, this is not to discourage anyone in any way. Like I said, as a writer just starting out, the help I received from my instructor was wonderful, not to mention the incredible vote of confidence she gave me. (I have to note that even though she did make me feel good about my writing, she also pointed out my weaknesses, so it wasn't all gush. And I was thankful for that as well.)

I'm not sure if this will help anyone in making the decision to join ICL, and I surely don't wish to discourage anyone... I just thought I'd pass along my experiences so that it might give you a little push in whatever direction you're taking.

Take care!! And Happy Writing!!
~Em

willfs

09-01-2009, 04:37 AM

I almost put this in the newbie forum, and maybe I should have, but how would one go about getting out of this forum as much as you could from ICL? Should I just start writing short stories and getting critiques? I then pay the forum back by giving a few crits? How can AW help me perfect my writing skills like an ICL instructor would? The flash fiction activity seems like good practice but no one every gives honest critiques there, which is fine. I am not complaining here. I guess I am the type of personality that needs someone to tell me "if you want to get from A to B, this is the way you should go." ICL seemed to have that mapped out for me. I'd like some suggestions on how to use Absolute to get me from A and headed toward B.

Angyl78

09-01-2009, 06:49 AM

That is an interesting question. I'm new here myself so I am still looking around. I have found that often my instructor tells me things I figure out after I send in assignment. It is nice to have a "published" opinion.

Hmm... Maybe find a few friends here that are not afraid of telling you when you 'suck'. I have one of those in my office where I work. I get a kick out of it, and she's usually right on!

Geraldine

09-19-2009, 10:24 PM

Hi all, I was wondering if any of you have gone through them and if so, what was your experience like, what ways did they help you, etc... I am contemplating on enrolling but would like some input from others who have already gone through the course.

Thanks and happy writing!

I am taking the course... just submitted lesson 3 and am loving the feed back and structured format of the course. SO FAR, I have only good things to say about the course!

BetsyJ

11-12-2009, 06:38 AM

I was an instructor at ICL some years ago. At the time, I thought the instruction was very helpful, and many students do eventually get published. But if you don't have the money, you can find most of the same information on the web these days. You also can get critiques plus make contacts through sites like this one. And there are very many generous published writers who will help show you the ropes.

Ellen Jackson, author
THE WINTER SOLSTICE
www.ellenjackson.net

mware01

11-14-2009, 12:26 AM

kansasgirl

11-28-2009, 02:59 AM

mware01

11-28-2009, 07:43 AM

It sounds like you have been assigned a very good instructor. I had never heard of her, so I did a quick google search. She's won several awards and has lots of books under her belt.

Not all instructors take e-mail assignments, some are only snail mail. Send the institute and e-mail asking if your instructor takes e-mail assignments. Even if she doesn't you would do well to consider trying her for at least one assignment; not all the instructors are as qualified as yours.

There's one piece of advice I can give. Edit the heck out of your assignments before sending them in. I'm talking like a dozen times.
Of course if you have been writing for some time you already know that.

Best of luck.

I just was accepted to the ICL's Wrting for Children and Teenagers course this week. Does anyone know about the instructor that I was assigned - Joyce Hansen? I am supposed to start my course in January. For those of you taking the course are you submitting assignments via snail mail or email?

dlenee

11-29-2009, 08:52 PM

I just was accepted to the ICL's Wrting for Children and Teenagers course this week. Does anyone know about the instructor that I was assigned - Joyce Hansen? I am supposed to start my course in January. For those of you taking the course are you submitting assignments via snail mail or email?

I've never heard of your instructor, but that's not saying much. :) I googled mine to find out a little more.

I'm on leave of absence from my ICL course because life got in the way, but when I was working on it, I submitted via email. When I enrolled, they'd given me someone that only did snail mail, which was not what I wanted. I called them and asked for an email accepting instructor. They switched me and sent out another instructor introduction package right away. If you really want an instructor who accepts email, call student services and get one that accepts email. You can also read the instructor profiles on the ICL website and request one. That doesn't mean they'll be available, but there's no harm in trying. I did that with my adult writing course at their sister school, Long Ridge Writing Group.

dlenee

11-29-2009, 09:00 PM

Has anyone had the problem of not getting critical feedback from their instructor? My last 3 assignments have been nothing but praise (and a couple minor grammar fixes).

I really like my instructor, but I know my writing is not that good, so I am thinking of asking for a new instructor. But then there's no guarantee I'd get one that would offer better feedback.

Anyone had an experience like this?

I haven't had that problem. Mine offered both criticism and praise. However, I read a post or two on the ICL forum by people who indicated a lack of criticism from their instructors. Most stated that they received criticism and praise though.

Dreamer76

01-19-2010, 07:35 PM

Has anyone had the problem of not getting critical feedback from their instructor? My last 3 assignments have been nothing but praise (and a couple minor grammar fixes).

I really like my instructor, but I know my writing is not that good, so I am thinking of asking for a new instructor. But then there's no guarantee I'd get one that would offer better feedback.

Anyone had an experience like this?

I took the course in 2003 and I had the same experience; minor grammatical errors and praise, praise, praise. I've recently gone back and read some of my assignments with a more experienced eye. Some things were done very well and others I cringed at. I always wondered it I was really that talented. My instructor was Virginia (Ginny). I have no idea if she's still there.

willfs

03-26-2010, 06:11 PM

So where on the site is this forum?

Also, what if my goal is not magazine writing? Do they have courses for writing children's books? Should I start at magazines?

mware01

03-29-2010, 01:26 AM

So where on the site is this forum?

Also, what if my goal is not magazine writing? Do they have courses for writing children's books? Should I start at magazines?

It's not part of absolutewrite, their website is: http://www.institutechildrenslit.com/

I haven't submitted any of my articles to Magazines. It's really just to bring your writing up to speed. It's also helped me a lot for MG. Kids have short attention spans, so I now look at each chapter like a separate entity. Have I edited it to the level of a magazine article for one of my assignments (for me, that's at least 6 edits)? Does it have a beginning, middle and end? Most important of all, how good is the ending? Does it leave the reader wanting more?

The cool thing is the last three lessons you can submit the first three chapters of your manuscript.

Now, the course isn't cheap (I don't recall how much, though I could check). And you can get almost the same level of help here, but only if you really, really work the boards (submit writing samples, really read people's replies, decide who's advice to follow, edit other's work, etc).

The other caution is to make sure you're writing stills don't exceed your instructors. If you get to the point where you are not getting criticism, it doesn't mean your writing is great (yes, I thought that =-0). It means it's time to ask for a new instructor.

That happened to me, and I wish I would have asked for a new instructor sooner. The one I have now is the former editor for one of the largest children's magazines and a very competent editor.