Missing font that is requested in guidelines

[JuliePgh]

The submission guidelines for one publisher calls for 12-point standard serif typeface. I don't have that on my pc (iMac). I'm not interested in buying a new program to install this typeface. Should I explain in my cover letter that I don't have Serif typeface and used the closest font? And for those of you who have Serif, what is the closest font? Times New Roman? Thanks.

[rich]

Really picky s h i t from the pub. There's a lot of other pubs out there

[JuliePgh]

I know, but this one seems perfect. I can't just NOT try them. I figure sending in the wrong font is still more of a chance than sending in nothing at all. But if I'm going to send in the wrong font, I might as well get one close to it and/or apologize in my cover letter.

[paprikapink]

My understanding is that "serif" is a type of typeface. "Serif" means "flag." A serif font has the little flags off the tops and bottoms of the letters, like Times or Bookman. A non-serif font, also called a sans-serif font is one without the little flags, like ariel or this one in this message (at least on my screen, this board has all non-serif fonts.) Typically, like in a newspaper, the text is a serif font and the headlines are sans-serif.

I'm open to corrections if I'm wrong or a bit off, but that's my understanding.

[James D. Macdonald]

Courier and Times Roman are both serif typefaces, as opposed to Lucida and Arial which aren't.

Typefaces are broken into two major families: Serif and sans-serif. Each of those are broken into two families: monospace and proportional.

When in doubt, your submissions should be in a serif monospace font.

[maestrowork]

These are "serif" fonts:

Bool Antiqua
Garamond
Georgia
Palatino
Times New Roman
Courier (which is also a fixed font)


Serif fonts are easier to read on paper.




These are "san serif" fonts:

Arial
Century
Comics
Franklin
Impact
Tahoma
Trebuchet
Verdana
Lucida Console (which is also a fixed font)

These fonts are great for on-screen texts (such as web pages) and headlines.

Fixed fonts are great for ms because they're easy to read and edit.

[JuliePgh]

Thank you, everyone. That clears it up and solves my problem. I love having people here who know what they're doing!

[katiemac]

Good luck with the submission, Julie.

[Jonny Ryan Mac]

Go to google and look up 1001 fonts, they are all free and you can download all that you want. Save them into an empty folder on your c: Drive and open your Windows or OS Fonts folder, go to file/add new fonts/ then throw it down. You can find a ton that you may help snaze up your MS.

[reph]

Jonny, a C drive and Windows are PC things. A Mac doesn't have those. Julie said she has a Mac. But I think the problem was solved a few posts up. A Mac does have some serif fonts.

[Jamesaritchie]

Go to google and look up 1001 fonts, they are all free and you can download all that you want. Save them into an empty folder on your c: Drive and open your Windows or OS Fonts folder, go to file/add new fonts/ then throw it down. You can find a ton that you may help snaze up your MS.

From an editor's point of view, snazing up a manuscript is a naughty thing. Just Courier 12 (Or Courier 10BT, if Macs still use it) will do fine. Get fancy, get rejected.

[Jaws]

From an editor's point of view, snazing up a manuscript is a naughty thing. Just Courier 12 (Or Courier 10BT, if Macs still use it) will do fine. Get fancy, get rejected.
One note, though: Book-length manuscripts should (except when specifically stated otherwise) be done in a proportional serif typeface, such as Bookman, Book Antiqua, Century Old Style, or (if you're on a bare-bones Linux system) Times New Roman (sometimes inaccurately called "Times Roman" or "Times"). Particularly in the world of serious nonfiction, Courier in book-length manuscripts is developing an underground reputation as the mark of an inexperienced writer, and if your work has nonlinear elements (e.g. figures, tables, footnotes, etc.) you had better not use a monospaced font like Courier. Although this is not quite the same thing as the mark of a bad writer, it can't help.

For less-than-book-length works, some Luddite markets that honestly believe that a monospaced font gives editors a better eyeball chance at figuring out how many column-inches an item will fill continue to demand Courier. Unfortunately, that probably means bowing to the Luddites for articles and short fiction and anthology contributions.

[Jamesaritchie]

One note, though: Book-length manuscripts should (except when specifically stated otherwise) be done in a proportional serif typeface, such as Bookman, Book Antiqua, Century Old Style, or (if you're on a bare-bones Linux system) Times New Roman (sometimes inaccurately called "Times Roman" or "Times"). Particularly in the world of serious nonfiction, Courier in book-length manuscripts is developing an underground reputation as the mark of an inexperienced writer, and if your work has nonlinear elements (e.g. figures, tables, footnotes, etc.) you had better not use a monospaced font like Courier. Although this is not quite the same thing as the mark of a bad writer, it can't help.

For less-than-book-length works, some Luddite markets that honestly believe that a monospaced font gives editors a better eyeball chance at figuring out how many column-inches an item will fill continue to demand Courier. Unfortunately, that probably means bowing to the Luddites for articles and short fiction and anthology contributions.

Not hardly. No way, no how. Experienced writers use Courier 12 in book length mansucripts, and I don;t know a single editor anywhere in this country who doesn't prefer Courier 12. I know quite a few who actively hate Bookman, ands loath Book Antiqua to the point where they won't even read it.

I don't know where this information comes from, but it's absolutely, completely, utterlty wrong. And it certainly doesn't come from any of teh pro level websites out there.

I know one book editor who has the assistant editor reject anything not in Times or Courier out of hand. Without even a read.

I know a top SF editor who will read Times, but he moans and groans and steam comes out of his ears when any manuscript isn't in Courier 12. You really don't want an editor reading your manuscript with this attitude. It can bias him against it.

Pro writer use Courier 12. Pro editors want Courier 12. Preo level websites all over the internet, from pro writers and pro editors, say use Courier 12.

The only reason some editors read other fonts is because writers don't listen. In fact, the only reason Times is accepted at most places is because writers don't listen. Most word processors are defaulted to times, so thousanda and thousands of writers just use it, and editors finally gave up the striggle.

None of the fonts you mention are anywhere near as easy to edit as Courier, or give you the same, proper, space count as Courier.

Most, not all, editors will certainly read Times, but I do knw a handful of top editors who will reject Times out of hand. Courier 12 is still the standard with every top editor I know, with both fiction and nonfiction.

As one editor recently put it, Courier is the ONLY font that will pleadse any editor. Courier is the ONLY font where you can't go wrong.

Those in that undrground better come up for air. It's complete nonsense. Inexperienced writers use Bookman, or Book Atiqua, or Ariel, or you name it. Pro writers use Courier 12, and pro editors want Courier 12. ESPECIALLY in book length manuscripts. Using other fonts is the mark of a complete amateur.

[JuliePgh]

Thank you, everyone, but I feel comfortable deferring to Jamesaritchie on this one, given his experience and sound advice elsewhere. As much as I prefer Times, I'll be happy to give editors courier. My initial problem was trying to satisfy Serif without understanding what that meant. Thank you again.

[Jamesaritchie]

I think what many overlook where fonts and computers are concerned is that computers haven't changed some things in any way. Seventy-five years ago, writers used a manual typewriter to put ink on paper. Today writers use a deskjet, an inkujet, or a laser printer to put ink on paper.

But whether you use a manual typewriter, or the latsest whiz-bang laser printer, the resulting product is still ink on paper.

Seventy-five years ago, editors edited ink on paper manuscripts by hand. Today, editors still edit ink on paper manuscripts by hand. It's the easiest, fastest, most efficient way of doing the job.

Seventy-five years ago or today, Courier 12 is still, far and away, the easiest font to edit. Bookman, Book Antiqua, Ariel, and three or four other fonts are prettier than Courier. No doubt about it. But no editor alive cares how a manuscript looks. You don't publish manuscripts, you publish books made from the manuscript.

As long as editors still edit by hand, Courier will remain the preferred font by most because it's the only font that has enough room in every direction to allow easy use of proofreaders' marks.

I know exactly one pro editor who prefers Times New Roman, but it's because she's in a situation when editing by hand isn't an option, even though she requires snail mail manuscripts.

Times New Roman and Book Antiqua both jam letters too close together for easy insertion of proofreaders' marks, and while Bookman is very pretty, it, too, is more difficult to edit by hand than Courier.

Type this in your word processor: Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary over

If your margins are set correctly, one inch all around, this will run exactly margin to margin.

Type it five times. Make the first line Courier 12, make the second line Times New Roman, make the third line Bookman, make the fourth line Book Antiqua, and make the fifth line Ariel.

If you can't tell at a glance why editors prefer to edit Courier 12, you haven't edited enough manuscripts.

[willietheshakes]

One note, though: Book-length manuscripts should (except when specifically stated otherwise) be done in a proportional serif typeface, such as Bookman, Book Antiqua, Century Old Style, or (if you're on a bare-bones Linux system) Times New Roman (sometimes inaccurately called "Times Roman" or "Times"). Particularly in the world of serious nonfiction, Courier in book-length manuscripts is developing an underground reputation as the mark of an inexperienced writer, and if your work has nonlinear elements (e.g. figures, tables, footnotes, etc.) you had better not use a monospaced font like Courier. Although this is not quite the same thing as the mark of a bad writer, it can't help.


I'll echo jamesritchie and say that this is just wrong - misleading and potentially damaging advice.

[James D. Macdonald]

Interesting trivium #1: The first American writer to submit a typewritten manuscript was Mark Twain.

Interesting trivium #2: Some of Herman Melville's more interesting word choices in his printed works have as their origin the fact that Herman Melville's handwriting was very difficult to read.

[Christine N.]

I was wondering where Jaws got this info myself. Every publisher I've ever looked at wants Courier, but say they will accept Times. Because it looks like a typewriter, and it's easy to read.

[TashaGoddard]

I think it needs to be made clear that using Courier is a requirement of American publishers. It may not be so in other countries.

As an editor (in the UK) I personally prefer Times New Roman, or a similar serif font for editing on paper. If I'm editing on screen I prefer Arial, or a similar sans-serif font (and will usually change it in the files to Arial to make it easier for me). I do mostly edit non-fiction, but I have also edited fiction. I have never had to edit a manuscript submitted in Courier. I have had to edit a few submitted in Comic Sans and all I can say about that is ewwww, but it didn't prevent me from editing the manuscript.

Provided the manuscript is printed double-spaced and with decent margins, there is plenty of space for editing by hand - whatever font is used. I have occasionally had to edit manuscripts that were printed single-spaced. Now that is annoying.

So if you're submitting your manuscript to a US publisher, by all means follow the Courier (and other) rules (but check the specific publisher's guidelines first, in case they have different requirements). But if you're submitting to a UK publisher, I would say use Times New Roman or similar and make sure it's double-spaced and has at least 2cm margin on all sides (again check with the publisher for any specific requirements).

To be honest, I really don't understand this insistence on Courier. If all books were printed in a monospaced font, then sure, that would make sense. But they're not. A book printed in a monospaced font would look ghastly and be very difficult to read. The number of pages a monospaced manuscript takes up is really not going to give a clear indication of how many pages the finished book is going to take up. It depends on what font is used, what font size is used, what leading is used, how big the margins are, etc. If every book an imprint publishes uses the same font, font size, leading and margins, then it might make sense. But how many publishers do that? Maybe they do in the US and that's why it's so important to use Courier there. In fiction, the settings can be tweaked here and there to bring the book down in extent (or up, if you're Alex Garland *g*). The only way you're going to get a definitive idea of how long a book will be in print is to use the exact same settings (including line length, font, font size) as the finished book will use. And it's unfair to ask an author to do that, because the kind of fonts used in printed books are generally not the kind of fonts that come with your computer, or with any of your software packages.

I know the vast majority of people he are American and therefore stressing the need to use Courier is important. However, it would be nice to remember sometimes that there are people from all over the world on this board (and on pretty much all posting boards on the net, for that matter).

[Can you tell how much it bugs me when people forget that America is not the only country in the world?]

[Richard]

Quick request for clarification:

Paper is still okay for hard copies, right? There's no faction currently pushing for papyrus, or rolled lead sheets or something similar?

[Jaws]

It seems that the Font Wars have started again.

Source for my comments: Having worked as an editor at a midmajor specialty publisher; constant contact with a huge range and variety of editors from small presses up to the Big Five, in a wide variety of publishing niches.

Note that I did not say that one font system is "mandatory" or "prohibited." I said preferred. I also said that there isn't a universal correct answer even as to preference. Across the range of serious trade nonfiction editors, my notes indicate that more than 80% of the editors out there prefer proportional typefaces in book manuscripts, and 95% do so when the manuscript includes significant nonlinear elements (such as notes and tables). It's closer to 70-30 in the rest of trade nonfiction, but closer to 90-10 in academic nonfiction. Given that nonfiction is the bulk of the publishing industry, and fiction imprints tend to pick up nonfiction practices about three or four years down the road, I think this matters—particularly as there has been a considerable change in preferences since 2000. I confirmed the trend last year talking to some fiction editors, about a third of whom had changed their "font worship" in the previous three or four years.

Note, too, that I specifically distinguished short-piece from book-length markets. For whatever reason, the short-piece markets still cling to monospaced fonts as a preference.

All of that said, take my comments as "dangerous" or whatever. They're based on my experience and my clients' experience; yours may vary. The mere fact that this raises such an emotional BS reaction should be the first indication to everyone that it's based on irrational preconceived notions and personal experience, especially since virtually every study ever done demonstrates that monospaced fonts are harder to read than either serif or sanserif proportionally spaced fonts.

[Christine N.]

I don't doubt anyone's experience, it was just my personal experience that I ran across the almost exclusive use of Courier in sub guidelines. US pubs, of course.

I write book length fiction.

[willietheshakes]

Jaws -
You're aware that you're posting in the Writing Novels forum and not the "serious trade nonfiction" forum, right? Regardless as to the tendency of trade fiction publishers to follow the lead of non-fiction publishers (a point which you have not supported), the VAST majority of fiction publishers, in their submission guidelines, call for Courier or TNR at present. Failure to follow these guidelines is a fine reason to have a ms returned unread... If someone asks for something specific, I tend to give it to them.
That's why I (and others) referred to your advice as 'dangerous' -- you're talking about a different world of publishing altogether. I'm pleased that you're seeing this revolution in acceptable fonts (I hate Courier), but I'd rather have my ms read than make a stand.

[azbikergirl]

Type this in your word processor:

Once upon a midnight dreary, while I pondered weak and weary over

If your margins are set correctly, one inch all around, this will run exactly margin to margin.

I did this in MS Word. All margins are 1" and the typeface is Courier New 12 point. The line wrapped. It was the 'r' in over that pushed it to a second line.

??

[Avalon]

From my days in book production: Courier used to let us determine the page count of the finished product not because of a particular number of words per manuscript page, but because of a technical procedure called a 'castoff'. A castoff could be done on any manuscript in a monospace font (eg, Courier), but not in any proportional font (eg, Times Roman).

You would count the number of pages in the manuscript. You would take perhaps ten or fifteen random pages, and count a random number of lines on those pages. The average of those would be the number of lines per page. Then, you would consult a type directory to find out the number of characters per pica in the final (typeset) font at the final (typeset) size. Then, based on the trim size and margins of the final book, you could determine how many characters (not words) would fit in a line of type. Etc, etc... it was a mathematical conversion.

Courier didn't have anything to do with readability, then. Manuscripts were typewritten when I started, and there weren't a lot of options for fonts. After things got more computerized, the publishers I worked with continued to request Courier. The whole point of using Courier was so that production would be able to do a castoff and figure out exactly how many pages the book would be -- which affected things like the binding options, the kind of cover choices, all kinds of things, not to mention basic profitability (cost of paper).

For what it's worth, as long as you had a type book and the manuscript was monospaced, you could figure out pretty much to the page how the book would print, although anything within 10% was considered acceptable.

Again, nonfiction environment.

Just wanted to mention that Courier used to be requested for reasons that had nothing to do with readability.

[brinkett]

I did this in MS Word. All margins are 1" and the typeface is Courier New 12 point. The line wrapped. It was the 'r' in over that pushed it to a second line.
??
Same here. Also, I've seen the 250 words/page method to get the word count for a manuscript, but using Courier New 12 with 1" margins all around, widows and orphans off, I get a maximum of 24 lines per page. The only way I can get 25 lines per page is if I reduce the top/bottom margin slightly. This is using Word 2003. Is there another setting I need to check?

[veinglory]

Keep in mind that UK A4 paper is a few mm narrower that US A4.

[Christine N.]

reset your line spacing to 1.8 instead of a true 2, and you'll get 25 lines. And you can't tell on sight it's not a true double space.

[Medievalist]

This is becoming more than somewhat idiotic.

1. In terms of readability, the question of serif versus sans serif is a Religious Issue, to be perceived, like other Editorial Religious Issues (which include things like The Oxford or Serial Comma) as Whatever your Current Editor Favors is The One True Way all others are Vile Heresies. This is because the research is pretty much evenly divided, and it's going to come down to what the individual reader likes, anyway, so don't sweat it. Just follow the particular publication's submission guidelines.

2. In terms of submissions, just follow the guidelines for what ever publication you're submitting to; it's not like it's going to take days to retype the ms.

3. The old type this sentence and it will run margin to margin doesn't work these days because of individual resolution and font matrices differences; the technology is a moving target so just follow the submission guidelines for the publication in question.

4. Did I mention following the submission guidelines?

[astonwest]

I'm going to start a new publishing company, and require all submissions in Wingdings font...

:ROFL:

[Christine N.]

...with three inch margins all the way round

[brinkett]

reset your line spacing to 1.8 instead of a true 2, and you'll get 25 lines. And you can't tell on sight it's not a true double space.
That could be it, but I can't figure out how to reset the line spacing to 1.8 in Word. The only place I can find that addresses Line Spacing (and the only place the help sends me to) is the Format->Paragraph dialog, but it's asking for line spacing in "pt". Can anyone help me out by posting instructions on how to change the line spacing to 1.8 in Word 2003?

[Avalon]

Does this do it?






-Format

-Paragraph

-Under Line Spacing: select "multiple" from menu

-To the right of that under "At," type in "1.8" (without the quotes).



Although… that gives me 26 lines per page. Heck, I get 26 lines per page even if I make it doublespaced.

[Bufty]

Man, I just read this thread and am I up the creek? I did my novel with a quill pen in copperplate. I thought, if it was good enough for Will and Dickens....

[SRHowen]

And what your ms looks like as a submission has nothign to do with what it looks like printed--

To say well if all books were printed . . . that's not a point at all. There are standard formats, and you can't go wrong using them--where as you can go wrong by doing something not standard.

at least 1 inich margins all the way around

Slug line at the top

Mono spaced font

12pt

Underline italics

AND the ms has nothing to do with the appearance of the book once published.

[brinkett]

Does this do it?
Although… that gives me 26 lines per page. Heck, I get 26 lines per page even if I make it doublespaced.
It gives me 26 lines per page, too. I get 24 lines per page if I use double. I'm still looking for that elusive 25 lines per page. :Hammer:


Underline italics

I've noticed that some publishers are now asking for submissions in TNR, and some are saying not to underline italics, but to use italic font. So it's always best to check the guidelines for wherever you're submitting.

[azbikergirl]

I get 25 lines per page by using "Exactly" + 25 pt and a .8" top margin (when printed, the top of the first line of text is actually 1 inch from the top edge of the paper)

[brinkett]

I get 25 lines per page by using "Exactly" + 25 pt and a .8" top margin (when printed, the top of the first line of text is actually 1 inch from the top edge of the paper)
Using this method, I get either 25 or 26 lines per page (usually 26). Do you have widows/orphans on?

[reph]

Medievalist gave excellent advice. I would add, however, that it's always best to follow the publication's submission guidelines.

[Jamesaritchie]

reset your line spacing to 1.8 instead of a true 2, and you'll get 25 lines. And you can't tell on sight it's not a true double space.

To get 25 lines in Word, you don't mess with top and bottom margins, or with line spacing in the way you're doing it. Once the manuscript is finished, you go to format/paragraph. Then you change the box labelled "Line spacing" to "Exactly," and then change the box next to it labelled "At" to 25pt.

This automatically gives you 25 double-spaced lines.

There's also a way to do this with WordPerfect, though I don't remember the process.

[brinkett]

We have a winner. Thank you, James, that does the trick. And thanks to everyone else for your suggestions.

I can stop pulling my hair out now.

[Jamesaritchie]

This is becoming more than somewhat idiotic.

1. In terms of readability, the question of serif versus sans serif is a Religious Issue, to be perceived, like other Editorial Religious Issues (which include things like The Oxford or Serial Comma) as Whatever your Current Editor Favors is The One True Way all others are Vile Heresies. This is because the research is pretty much evenly divided, and it's going to come down to what the individual reader likes, anyway, so don't sweat it. Just follow the particular publication's submission guidelines.

2. In terms of submissions, just follow the guidelines for what ever publication you're submitting to; it's not like it's going to take days to retype the ms.

3. The old type this sentence and it will run margin to margin doesn't work these days because of individual resolution and font matrices differences; the technology is a moving target so just follow the submission guidelines for the publication in question.

4. Did I mention following the submission guidelines?

Readability has nothing at all to do with it. Zero. I don't know why the issue of readability keeps coming up. That's the big mistake writers make. Nor does whether or not the sentence I gave reaches from margin to margin. Though it will in every word processor I've tried it with. More than a dozen.

What matters, all that matters, is how easy a manuscript is to edit by hand, which means being able to insert all the proofreaders' marks ediors use every day.

When you write the same sentence using the five fonts I listed, and then print out that page, you'd have to be blind not to see why editors ask for Courier 12. Times will give you a headache when you try to squeeze in the proofreaders' marks. The other fonts aren't as bad, but still much tougher to work with than Courier 12. Forget all about readability. It's not even part of the equation.

Simply put, Courier 12 is the only font that gives enough room in every direction to easily and quickly insert proofreaders' marks, and do so in a way that makes it plain what you intended, and where you intended it.

Courier is also the only font that pretty much any editor can glance at and tell exactly how much paper the published book will require. You can do it with the other fonts, but it takes work. With Courier 12, it takes no work. A good editor can gance at page one and know how much paper the published book will require. And most of the cost of a published book comes from high paer costs.

Writers who think Courier is ugly, or that this font or that font is easier to read, simply have no idea what the editing process is all about. They simply need to get the idea of readability, prettiness, etc., out of their thinking process. It's about editing, using proofreaders' mark on the same ink and paper manuscripts that have been around for well over a hundred years.

Going from manual typewriter to laser printer hasn't changed the fact that editors still edit ink on paper manuscripts by hand, just like they did a hundred years ago. This means the same ease of inserting and understanding proofreaders' marks is required. Courier makes this easier and faster than any other font.

The only reason there is to use any other font is stubbornness. There is no editor out there who will huff and puff if you use Courier. There are many who will huff and puff if you don't.

Unless the guidelines say not to use Courier, then Courier is the right choice.

[TashaGoddard]

Readability has nothing at all to do with it. Zero. I don't know why the issue of readability keeps coming up. That's the big mistake writers make.

Writers who think Courier is ugly, or that this font or that font is easier to read, simply have no idea what the editing process is all about. They simply need to get the idea of readability, prettiness, etc., out of their thinking process. It's about editing, using proofreaders' mark on the same ink and paper manuscripts that have been around for well over a hundred years.

Firstly, please don't tell me that I have no idea what the editing process is all about. I am an editor. I have been an editor for all my working life. I have a degree in publishing and years of experience editing. (I do realise that you probably weren't directing that at me personally, but as I had contributed a post about this, you were to an extent directing it at me.)

All this is in the UK, so I am not in any way advising writers to go against the accepted font requirements in their own country and definitely not to go against the specific guidelines provided by the specific publisher to whom they are submitting. Presenting your manuscript in any way other than the way the publisher requests it be submitted is, well, it's stupid. As you said, doing so can get your manuscript rejected without even being read.

However, the editing process does require readability to be taken into account. Editing is incredibly strenuous on the eyes. You have to read text very closely for hours on end. Courier is not a readable font, because it is monospaced. As Avalon pointed out the reasons behind requesting Courier were to do with production requirements and extent estimation. I have to say that I never learnt this or heard it, but then again I have always worked in editorial, not in production and I am not old enough to have been around when manual typesetting was still in wide use (when a very accurate estimate of the extent would have been extremely important).

A monospaced font does not give the recognisable word shapes that a good proportional, serif font will give. Quite frankly, it hurts the eyes to read reams of Courier. Similarly, a printed manuscript in a sans-serif font, such as Arial can also prove hard on the eye. For editing on screen, however, a sans-serif font at a higher point size is necessary, because of the added problems with reading on screen. (Though, as I pointed out in my earlier post, someone editing on screen can adjust the font at a touch of a button, so how the files have been provided isn't too much of an issue - in terms of font at least; there are plenty of other things that authors do that are really annoying to editors working on screen, or typesetters working with the original files.)

Your point about Courier making it easier to position insertion marks and the like is a valid one. There is more space to do this when a monospaced font is used. However, the majority of editors proofread as well as edit (though that does vary according to the type of publishing), so we have to work with fitting these marks in on proportional fonts anyway. If you have a decent pen, it's not really an issue. And giving your eyes a few more years of pain-free use is more important (IMO).

Unless the guidelines say not to use Courier, then Courier is the right choice.

This is a perfectly fine statement, except for two words that you need to add at the end: in America.

If you are submitting manuscripts in America, then you should absolutely stick to the overall accepted practice (unless otherwise stated in the guidelines). If you are submitting in the UK and do not have any specific requirements from the publisher or agent - submit in Times New Roman, or another standard serif font (i.e. not an ornate font, a sans-serif font or a handwriting font). I do not have any knowledge of the general accepted practice in other countries, but they may well differ. If you are submitting in another country, try to find out what the accepted practice there is, rather than assuming that the American requirements will apply.

As Medievalist said... the rule you need to follow at any time is to follow the submission guidelines regardless of your own thoughts (or mine, or anyone else's) about what font is more readable or more helpful to the editor.

[oswann]

Not to confuse the issue at all (read the sub guidelines and do it that way if you want to sub to that company), but when I am working on the screen I do so in Courier 12 like most, however I print out occasionally in Times to read out loud and make some of my own notes. Every hundred pages or so I look forward to checking it out in Times.

After so many hours of looking at the same text in Courier 12 it gives me a different perspective and I find clunky things previously missed.

This has nothing to do with submissions. Just an interesting aside. Carry on.


Os.

[ChunkyC]

Shawn is also bang on with this comment:
AND the ms has nothing to do with the appearance of the book once published.
What you submit will never, ever be seen by someone buying your book. Never. It is purely and simply for the publisher/agent. The finished book that hits the shelves will always be set in whatever font/point size/layout the publishing house likes to use when producing a finished product, and that choice has exactly zero bearing on what font was used on the original manuscript.

Therefore, Medievalist is bang on with regards to following the publisher's guidelines. Do so, or do not at your peril.

The crucial point about Courier 12 (at least in North America) is that in the absence of guidelines to the contrary, it is the font a publisher or agent is least likely to have a problem with. That's basically it.

So, I always write in Courier 12, and only change it if the place I'm submitting to specifically requests something else.

[LightShadow]

Just use Times New Roman or Courier, already. That's the ticket.

[Vomaxx]

You know, I have produced 3 thick fantasy volumes over the past three years--which I'm now trying to peddle--and, until I counted a moment ago, I didn't know how many "lines per page" I had. It turns out to be 27. And all in lovely, readable Times New Roman, with 1" margins. That gives me about 350 words per page.

I like it that way. And anyone who ever offers to publish volume I will have to like it that way, too. So there. :wag:

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[Liam Jackson]

I'll share a horror story about fonts with you folk.

I had three days to get a polished draft of Offspring to the publisher. No worries, right?

I conduct a final polish, then shoot the ms to a local printer (International franchise) via rtx.attachment, and ask for 3 copies. I also gave him the specs... 1" margins, Courier 12, double spaced, etc..."

The printer calls me and says, "Got the attachment. No prob! You can pick up your copies right at closing time.

So at roughly 6 PM, I bebop down to the printer to pick up the MS.
The copies are already boxed and ready to mail. All I have to do is apply a FedEx sticker and it's a done deal.

2 days later, (the day my ms was scheduled to arrive in NYC) #2 daughter decides to read dad's story. She opens one of the boxes, goes to page one, and immediately cracks up. Not a good sign for a horror story. She says, "I don't know what language you wrote this in, but I'm gonna need a Windtalker to decode it."

The machine, for some bizarre reason, hadn't been programmed with ALL the fonts. When it searched for Courier and couldn't find the font, it defaulted to the nearest language in it's memory. Wingding.

[Medievalist]

Liam I sympathize.

If you ever need to do this again, send the printer either a postscript file (In MSWord, Print, Postscript) or a .pdf with the .rtf file as a fall back option.

[ChunkyC]

it defaulted to the nearest language in it's memory. Wingding. Ye gods! I hope the publisher saw the humour in it when they opened the box.

[brokenfingers]

Hello all.

Have been keeping up with this thread and had no input - until now.

I never, ever, ever write in courier. As far as I'm concerned courier is a submitting font - meaning when I am ready to submit a piece or am in the final stages of editing, then I format it to submission specs: courier, 1" margin, blah, blah, blah...

Courier to me is a horrible font to write in. This may sound crazy to some but - to me - it detracts from the readability of the piece and the lean, solitary, evenly spaced out letters seem to cause the words to lose much of their flavor and inhibit my flow when I'm creating. I guess it's just that I find it too distracting and while I know it is something that I could get used to - there is no reason for me too. As long as the final product is in courier and I have edited it at least once in courier then I'm cool with it.

I usually use a font that is similar to that in a book - like times n.r., or sometimes verdana (the AW board standard) since those are the font styles of the majority of what I read and so they are familiar and comforting to a fragile mind like mine.

But then again that's me. I also turn around three times clockwise while reciting my favorite authors names and then turn around three times counter-clockwise while reciting them backwards before I sit down to write also.

[brinkett]

I never, ever, ever write in courier. As far as I'm concerned courier is a submitting font - meaning when I am ready to submit a piece or am in the final stages of editing, then I format it to submission specs: courier, 1" margin, blah, blah, blah...

I do the same. I write in TNR, only changing to courier when I'm in the final stages or to submit. However, I use the appropriate margins, etc. from day one.

[Liam Jackson]

Liam I sympathize.

If you ever need to do this again, send the printer either a postscript file (In MSWord, Print, Postscript) or a .pdf with the .rtf file as a fall back option.
Excellent advice. We've agreed on pdf. files for future projects.
I knew from past experience on the day job that printers would default if you fed them a document that required an unavailable font. However, I have no idea why that $30,000 commercial printer came from the manufacturer without Courier. I sure as hell had no idea Wingding was the default for anything. Just goes to show you, proof before you send.

CC, like I mentioned once before, signing the contract was anticlimatic. :)

[ChunkyC]

Excellent advice. We've agreed on pdf. files for future projects.
I knew from past experience on the day job that printers would default if you fed them a document that required an unavailable font. However, I have no idea why that $30,000 commercial printer came from the manufacturer without Courier. I sure as hell had no idea Wingding was the default for anything. Just goes to show you, proof before you send.

CC, like I mentioned once before, signing the contract was anticlimatic. :)
That's amazing that they wouldn't have Courier. From the first day Windows started including TrueType fonts, Courier was one of them. And defaulting to Wingding in the absence of another font? That's just nuts.

Did you have that contract signed before this happened? If not, it shows that the publisher loves your book!

[ChunkyC]

As long as the final product is in courier and I have edited it at least once in courier then I'm cool with it.
Good point to bring up, BF. You should feel free to write in the most comfortable way possible, be it the height of your chair or the font you use. The only time to change it is like you say, when it's time to get ready to print it off and submit it. Until then, type away in 72 point Blippo Condensed if that's what allows your creativity to soar.

[awatkins]

Liam! OM, that's the weirdest-tragically-humorous writing story I've ever heard! Glad everything worked out.

Heh. Wingdings. I can't figure out what anybody would use that for in the first place.

[Medievalist]

Liam! OM, that's the weirdest-tragically-humorous writing story I've ever heard! Glad everything worked out.

Heh. Wingdings. I can't figure out what anybody would use that for in the first place.

What happened is that on high end printers you have to download the font into the printer's memory--and other than writers, submitting books, not too many people use courier who use high end printers.

Then, assuming the font is in the printer's RAM, the printer has to be able to match its font id with the font id or name used in the file. If it can't find the font match, it works its way down the list, until the end, looking for the font.

And ends up at either Zapf Dingbats or Wingdings.

Yes, yes I've seen this happen . . . what do you mean how many times have I forgotten to check the fonts . . .

[Jaws]

There are three common causes of the "wingding substitution":
A Mac user saves the file on a PC disk in a PC format for transfer. The Mac doesn't use the some internal font names; therefore, the file save goes to a generic printer definition… except that, since the Mac doesn't use a proper Unicode header or character set, it looks like a non-Roman character set.
A Windows user has an HP printer set as the default printer and carelessly chooses "CG Courier" instead of "Courier New". These are different, and incompatible, character sets; same problem as above. (The same thing happens with "CG Times" and "Times New Roman.")
A Windows user has hard-coded all characters in the document, instead of changing the style, and is using a version of Word other than 2000.
I've seen and tracked down all three of these.

And, as a note to those who think PDFs will solve everything with high-end printers: They will… if, and only if, you tell the distiller function to embed all fonts and subset at 99%. This keeps the native font on whatever printer or system is eventually used—one that might have the same name, but a different character set or kerning table—from overruling the fonts you thought you were using. Due to a bug in the PostScript language definition, telling distiller to subset at 100% is not very reliable with many true high-end printers. Oh, I'm sorry: It's a feature, not a bug.

[oswann]

I'll share a horror story about fonts with you folk.

I had three days to get a polished draft of Offspring to the publisher. No worries, right?

I conduct a final polish, then shoot the ms to a local printer (International franchise) via rtx.attachment, and ask for 3 copies. I also gave him the specs... 1" margins, Courier 12, double spaced, etc..."

The printer calls me and says, "Got the attachment. No prob! You can pick up your copies right at closing time.

So at roughly 6 PM, I bebop down to the printer to pick up the MS.
The copies are already boxed and ready to mail. All I have to do is apply a FedEx sticker and it's a done deal.

2 days later, (the day my ms was scheduled to arrive in NYC) #2 daughter decides to read dad's story. She opens one of the boxes, goes to page one, and immediately cracks up. Not a good sign for a horror story. She says, "I don't know what language you wrote this in, but I'm gonna need a Windtalker to decode it."

The machine, for some bizarre reason, hadn't been programmed with ALL the fonts. When it searched for Courier and couldn't find the font, it defaulted to the nearest language in it's memory. Wingding.




I knew there was a reason to have kids. I hope you gave your daughter a mention in the front.
Os.

[Liam Jackson]

I knew there was a reason to have kids. I hope you gave your daughter a mention in the front.
Os.

She receives due recognition, Os. For that episode and many others. :)

[maestrowork]

You'd have thunk that Courier is standard... especially for a PRINTER!

Now, even with PDFs, make sure your printer has the fonts you use (for formatted ms.) You can also embed the fonts. I remember my publisher sent me a final typeset version of The Pacific Between. I was horrified to see that they used a really weird san serif font that was highly unreadable. Then I realized: I probably didn't have the font installed. Lo and behold, the publisher used "Garamond" which was not a standard font on my PC. After I installed the font, the PDF displayed perfectly.

[oswann]

She receives due recognition, Os. For that episode and many others. :)


Never doubted it for a second.
Os.

[ssaint]

I'm so glad I found this thread. I've been selling work for three years now, and sometimes I wonder if I'll ever get my manuscript formatting right. I think I'm one of the few who likes Courier, but I tend to use Courier 11 for book-length submissions. In fact, I used this font to sell my first book, and my second written in this font is under evaluation.

For shorter stories I've always submitted using TNR 12.

My issue has always been margins. My MS Word defaults to 1" top and bottom, and 1.25" at the sides. All guidelines seem to call for 1" margins all around, but this makes the left side awfully cluttered in my view--and less attractive. I always wonder how an editor can make changes at the left side because there seems like so little space.

I've written dozens of articles and short fiction pieces using the [/I]wrong[I] page setup, and I hesitate to change. But now that I'm writing book-length works, I guess I'll have to get used to 1" all around.

Anyone ever have a ms rejected because of improper margins?

[Kasey Mackenzie]

If a publisher's guidelines specifically call for 1 inch margins all around you should probably follow that when formatting your manuscript, but if they don't specify I have read in several sources that 1 to 1.5 inch margins are acceptable. I usually use 1 inch at top and bottom and 1.25 at left and right.

[pixiejuice]

If I can go ahead and ask a question I think I already know the answer to... you print the manuscript in Courier 12, but the cover letter still goes in Times 12, right?

(I think this question is probably more suited to short stories, because with a novel the editor will have previously received the cover letter and then requested the manuscript.)