Couple questions about elves

Thomas_Anderson · Jan 26, 2009

I was worldbuilding my fantasy, and I like to subvert cliches. However, I'm having trouble naming one of my beings, an elven subrace. In my story, there are five elven subraces, gnomes, dwarves, light elf, dark elf, and *blank*. The fifth race would be the race of elf that is the type that's at one with nature. As opposed to the standard hippies, I thought a bit to subvert it. Ruling over the wild would make them a bit feral and viscious. They're also primarily carnivores, so they have sharp teeth, and some cannibalistic tendencies. It'd also make them a bit sneaky and hard to trust. For camoflauge, they have green skin.

The first thought was orcs. While that would be nifty to have the wood elves and orcs be one and the same, I got kind of uncomfortable with the idea of ripping straight from Tolkein (or rather Warcraft), even though a lot of others do. They're about human height, and therefore a little small for ogres, but on the other hand, they're a little tall for goblins aren't they? Can they be trolls? Or just call them wood elves and be done with it?

For the dark elves. Does D&D have a copyright on the word "drow", or is that what the mythical being was called?

One more thing, is giving elves accelerated healing too much? I figured this would be the logical conclusion, elves being immortal and all. Also, the story has sci-fi elements as well, such as aliens and such, and so I have alien fae, and in addition to magic I thought I would give each one a specific ability that naturally comes to them without them concentrating (though it will fade if they're tired, have a magic disabler, and/or low on magic reserves). Dragons would be more or less invulnerable, elves healing, mermaids can extract oxygen from water using lungs (which allows them to breath air just as easily), etc. Is this OK?

Kazel · Jan 27, 2009

For naming you "wood elves" goblin came to mind first, Aos Si or Sidhe (Irish/gaelic elves "people of the mounds").
Encyclopedia Mythica has this entry on Trows "The Trows from the Shetland Islands are similar to the Scandinavian Trolls. Like their Nordic relatives, they hate sunlight, for this turns them into stone. Trows were observed many times performing a strange dance, which the islanders call 'Henking'. There are land-trows and sea-trows. A common phrase used by mother who were angry with their children was 'Trow take thee'." and says they were also known as Drows.

As for quick healing, if the elves seem like they are immortal but can die if injured badly enough, then healing powers make sense. Otherwise, simply having them unable to die, but heal at a normal rate, sometimes in the type of pain non-immortals would die from, could be an interesting direction.

As for the "specific ability" do you mean a passive ability? Something that is clearly magical about their nature, but isn't an offensive magic? With things like dragons and mermaids, thats rather unavoidable, so I don't think you can get away with not doing that ;-P.

As long as you magic system is self consistent, and makes sense in context, you should be okay

Without more information on how you are using/limiting magic, its hard to say if your "extra" abilities fit in/are too much.

dclary · Jan 27, 2009

Thomas_Anderson said:
I was worldbuilding my fantasy, and I like to subvert cliches. However, I'm having trouble naming one of my beings, an elven subrace. In my story, there are five elven subraces, gnomes, dwarves, light elf, dark elf, and *blank*. The fifth race would be the race of elf that is the type that's at one with nature. As opposed to the standard hippies, I thought a bit to subvert it. Ruling over the wild would make them a bit feral and viscious. They're also primarily carnivores, so they have sharp teeth, and some cannibalistic tendencies. It'd also make them a bit sneaky and hard to trust. For camoflauge, they have green skin.

The first thought was orcs. While that would be nifty to have the wood elves and orcs be one and the same, I got kind of uncomfortable with the idea of ripping straight from Tolkein (or rather Warcraft), even though a lot of others do. They're about human height, and therefore a little small for ogres, but on the other hand, they're a little tall for goblins aren't they? Can they be trolls? Or just call them wood elves and be done with it?

For the dark elves. Does D&D have a copyright on the word "drow", or is that what the mythical being was called?

One more thing, is giving elves accelerated healing too much? I figured this would be the logical conclusion, elves being immortal and all. Also, the story has sci-fi elements as well, such as aliens and such, and so I have alien fae, and in addition to magic I thought I would give each one a specific ability that naturally comes to them without them concentrating (though it will fade if they're tired, have a magic disabler, and/or low on magic reserves). Dragons would be more or less invulnerable, elves healing, mermaids can extract oxygen from water using lungs (which allows them to breath air just as easily), etc. Is this OK?

The only problem with using established races is that you have to bang your head against the "that's not what elves do" door.

The only problem with using brand new races that are similiar to other ones in some respects but completely different in others is that you have to bang your head against the "that's just a modified elf" door.

The only problem with creating a completely new and different race is that you have to bang your head against the "why aren't there elves in this?" door.

You're going to bang your head against a door no matter what you do. Why not pick the door you enjoy most and just run with it?

small axe · Jan 27, 2009

Okay, thing one is: I'm not a big reader of this sort of Fantasy genre, I love Tolkien, both books and movies, and I'm fairly familiar with the basic cultural folklore and fairytales ... and that's ALL.

So here's an average, "outsider" perspective, just my opinion:

I was worldbuilding my fantasy, and I like to subvert cliches. However, I'm having trouble naming one of my beings, an elven subrace. In my story, there are five elven subraces, gnomes, dwarves, light elf, dark elf, and *blank*.

The first thought was orcs. While that would be nifty to have the wood elves and orcs be one and the same, I got kind of uncomfortable with the idea of ripping straight from Tolkein (or rather Warcraft), even though a lot of others do.

All the more reason YOU should be creative and original!

They're about human height, and therefore a little small for ogres, but on the other hand, they're a little tall for goblins aren't they? Can they be trolls?

Are you ready for the philistine's opinion? Here goes:

ELVES are freaking ELVES.
They're not orcs or goblins or trolls or ogres.

EACH of those are established creatures in our culture, and to my admittedly genre-unschooled ear, it just sounds like you are 'ripping off' names.

It'd be like you calling your elves 'mermaids' -- they're NOT.

Anyone who could ever be your reader will be familiar enough with Tolkien (never mind childhood stories) to know Elves are lithe and beautiful, trolls ogres goblins etc are brutish and big.

WHY NOT just make up your OWN NAMES for your own creations?

Then you're not risking people being confused,
and not risking readers being put off or annoyed?

That's just my opinion. Between the risk of being cliche, and running up against pre-established cultural expectations ... there is the wise and creative middle ground of simply creating YOUR OWN races, characters, and words and worlds.

If I picked up a book in a bookstore and read a page, and the author was calling trolls a kind of elf ... 'confusing' his elves with trolls or dwarves ... I'd never buy that book, period.

If I read that there were five subraces of Elves, I'd be interested. But I'd expect them to have ELVISH NAMES, not a confused mishmash of already-used names.

That's just my two cents, and I'm not a Fantasy reader except for what EVERYONE'S read.

But I'd say respect what's already there, and create your own worlds, don't piggyback other stories or serve up regurgitated terms and just mix them all up.

veinglory · Jan 27, 2009

It seems to me that you are using a string of cliches that are ripped straight from Tolkein. If you don't wish to do that you need to take a step back and invent some races from scratch.

Kazel · Jan 27, 2009

veinglory said:
It seems to me that you are using a string of cliches that are ripped straight from Tolkein.

To me, it sounds like you do have some thought behind your races based on your description of your feral elves. However, veinglory is right that from your list of names it sounds like you are just ripping off cliches. Your list of character names read like a list of playable nonhumans from D+D. Coming up with all new names is one option (some great instructions on making a naming language), or going through encylcopedia mythica and using so less know mythical creatures as jumping off points.

Izunya · Jan 27, 2009

Thomas_Anderson said:
I was worldbuilding my fantasy, and I like to subvert cliches. However, I'm having trouble naming one of my beings, an elven subrace. In my story, there are five elven subraces, gnomes, dwarves, light elf, dark elf, and *blank*. The fifth race would be the race of elf that is the type that's at one with nature. As opposed to the standard hippies, I thought a bit to subvert it. Ruling over the wild would make them a bit feral and viscious. They're also primarily carnivores, so they have sharp teeth, and some cannibalistic tendencies. It'd also make them a bit sneaky and hard to trust. For camoflauge, they have green skin.

Green elves? Wild elves? Wildlings? Or wilders or Wild Ones or something with wild in it—you get where I'm going with this.

I believe that in some traditions, trolls were supposed to be a sort of foresty unpredictable species. When someone says "troll" in a fantasy setting, though, my first image is of an ugly musclebound creature. If you're going for lean, feral, and graceful and you decide to call them trolls, you will probably lose some readers. Of course, you're going to lose readers whatever you do; some people won't read elves and some people won't read elves that don't match their preconceptions.

Some people (like small axe, maybe) are also going to be a bit bewildered when you call dwarves and gnomes an elven subrace. It sounds to me as if you're using "elf" in a kind of general, folklorish sense: anything that isn't human and might be supernatural and probably has some sort of power over nature is considered a kind of elf, at least by the humans. I've seen some authors use "fae" (in a wide variety of spellings) in the same way, although I can't bring an example to mind right now for some reason. If you want to do it like that, I think you're going to have to make clear from the very start that elf is a very broad term in your world.

And, perhaps, that using it that way is only one perspective. Just because humans look at a gnome and think, "Oh, a kind of small elf," doesn't mean that the gnome sees himself that way. As far as he's concerned, I would imagine, gnomes are unique—all the other races can be lumped together with a single word, like "tallers."

Izunya

Mr Flibble · Jan 27, 2009

Some people (like small axe, maybe) are also going to be a bit bewildered when you call dwarves and gnomes an elven subrace.

Actually in Norse mythology dwarves were elves, often so indistinguishable there was no difference apart from where they liked to live and a few other ( not that consistent) details. They were in fact the 'dark elves'

And of course originally Tolkien called the Noldor gnomes in his early works, and one or two dwarves from Norse mythology are occasionally referred to as gnomes.

dclary · Jan 27, 2009

My current WIP introduces ogres as being more like Donaldson's Sandgorgons... or a hybrid of the two, maybe. There's enough in common with your traditional definition: large, brutish, thick skulled and twisted that a person's going to recognize the archtype, but there's specific physical and sociological differences that set mine apart and make them unique. in a case like this, I use the word people would normally associate with a creature of that size, personality and caste.

With the invading fantastic race, though, it's a race that takes physical features from two or three other races, and a sociological structure I haven't seen used recently or often, so I felt comfortable giving them their own race name and treating them appropriately as an entirely new entity.

dpaterso · Jan 27, 2009

There's a curious mix of wanting to strike a familiar chord with the reader, and wanting to write something new and different. But, failing to deliver reader expectations could kneecap you before you even start (as evidenced in some of the replies above). I don't think there's a middle ground, you either stick with the established races and enjoy the comfortable resonance they provide, or you build yourself a new world. Then again, who remembers Jen the Gelfling?

-Derek

AceTachyon · Jan 27, 2009

dpaterso said:
Then again, who remembers Jen the Gelfling?

I remember Jen.

And the Skeksis.

Don't forget McKiernan's Warrows which seemed to be a cross between hobbits/halflings and elves (at least, short elves; he had elves-elves in the Mithgar books, too)

Pthom · Jan 27, 2009

dclary · Jan 27, 2009

AceTachyon said:
I remember Jen.

And the Skeksis.

Don't forget McKiernan's Warrows which seemed to be a cross between hobbits/halflings and elves (at least, short elves; he had elves-elves in the Mithgar books, too)

Elwynns? Daikinis?

Mmmmm... Leg-o-Lass, the Wood-milf.

ChaosTitan · Jan 27, 2009

Oooooh, Skeksis.......

dclary · Jan 27, 2009

Oooh!

Do Sleestaks next!!!

ChaosTitan · Jan 27, 2009

Just for you, deek.

*runs and hides from Pthom*

dclary · Jan 27, 2009

Squeeee!

Jeremy · Jan 27, 2009

dpaterso said:
There's a curious mix of wanting to strike a familiar chord with the reader, and wanting to write something new and different. But, failing to deliver reader expectations could kneecap you before you even start (as evidenced in some of the replies above). I don't think there's a middle ground, you either stick with the established races and enjoy the comfortable resonance they provide, or you build yourself a new world.

QFT

With what you’re trying to accomplish I would just keep going with trying to write something new and different and come up with new races so you will not be bound by preconceived expectations with the Tolkienesque fantasy races.

For what it’s worth, I was turned off from the concepts of your story by the use of pre-established races and subsequent changes to them. However, I would find it infinitely more interesting if you just simply created new races and tried to further develop the concepts you have going for them.

eLfwriter · Jan 27, 2009

*eLfy wanders in, notices this is a thread about eLves, and eagerly puts up her hand to participate and represent the eLven peoples!!*

First off, coolio that you're writing about eLves. Most people get scared of falling into the "tall, blonde and archer" cliche and run away.

So, snaps to you for that.

Second of all, well hullo, Mr Anderson! (Sorry, Thomas, I had to say that).

And now, moving on.

I understand what you're trying to do and I think it's great, but I want to insert a word of caution. See, in my experience, elves (like almost any other fantasy peoples) have built a solid image in most readers' minds, and that image is strongly influenced by previous masterworks (and all the little minion books that copied them). If you mess with the reader's predetermined image TOO much, you just end up confusing the reader and smacking your head against all of dclary's doors. So in my mind, we can choose one of three easy solutions.

First solution. We make up new names for all the races and totally avoid the word 'elf' except in reference to an actual elf. Like small axe said, you can't call an elf a mermaid, because he's NOT a mermaid. He's an elf.

Second solution. I send you to Monstropedia, where with a little browsing, you might find an actual mythological something that fits your feral-elf image perfectly. (Monstropedia has a fairly good overview on most fantastic creatures)

Or three, which is my favorite option, we make a new line of evolution. As I understand it, you want your five sub-species to have evolved or descended from the elven race. I think that would work better for you if you had a different master race that these five sub-species have evolved from.

Said new evolution tree can look something like this;

*Master Sidhe Race of Awesomeness*
Light Elves (directly descended from the MSRoA)
Dark Elves (Light Elves that got lost and ran out of batteries for their torches)
Normal Everyday Elves (they're ... just elves)
Feral Elves (Everyday Elves that adapted to life in the forest)
Dwarves (Feral Elves that got lost in a tunnel for too long)
Gnomes (Dwarves that lived past their expiry date)

[[ that line of evolution is bias in accordance to eLfy's personal opinion, btw

]]

Oh, and as to the accelerated healing, as long as you lay down some limits/rules to it and stick to what you decided, I think it will work for you.

... but I also think it would be cool if you tailored the healing powers to each sub-species, since if they all have it, the healing power would be something they all inherited from their common ancestors in the Master Sidhe Race of Awesomeness, and if that's true, shouldn't it have evolved/devolved/adapted along with their appearances and other attributes?

For example, maybe you can have the Light Elves able to heal other people as well as theirselves with their healing powers, while the Dark Elves can only heal themselves. Maybe the Feral Elves have the fastest personal regeneration since they might get disemboweled by the saber-tooth-tiger they were hunting for lunch and they've adapted in order to survive. Maybe the gnomes have a reverse healing where they can use their healing powers backwards and make wounds worse (since gnomes are evil in my world).

Dunno. Just some suggestions! Hope I helped out.

*eLfy steps back, surveys the territory, and decides to leave all the hard decisions to Thomas_Anderson, who's actually writing the book

*

veinglory · Jan 27, 2009

Skeksis, yeassssssssss.

Lackey's "Companions", skaven, panserbjørne, lani...

Thomas_Anderson · Jan 27, 2009

The races aren't ripped straight from D&D/Tolkein. Yes, some aspects are, but I added some of my own, and I tried to follow mythology. I see a lot of you disagree with my usage of gnomes. Gnomes, in my world, are more or less the short Christmas-y elves, which I decided to include because I thought it would be interesting to have Norse Elves and Christmas Elves in the same setting. Gnome may or may not have been the right word to use, but I thought it was, given how much they have in common with short elves. Though it looks like I'll have to invent some other shorthand word for them, as calling them Christmas elf is silly.

I really like the idea and concept of elves, which is why I plan to use them in my stories. Elf is sort of a broad term in my world, but on the other hand, not so much. Really the only ones that aren't the lithe and nimble elves commonly thought of are the dwarves (but then, they've been classified as a subrace of elves in other works, so I don't see the problem), and the green monsters, but as I said, those are sort of wood elves, just different. There's also vampires, but they aren't really elves, just what happened when one human long ago tried to make himself into an elf and failed.

As for the "specific ability" do you mean a passive ability? Something that is clearly magical about their nature, but isn't an offensive magic? With things like dragons and mermaids, thats rather unavoidable, so I don't think you can get away with not doing that ;-P.

As long as you magic system is self consistent, and makes sense in context, you should be okay Without more information on how you are using/limiting magic, its hard to say if your "extra" abilities fit in/are too much.

Yes, I meant a passive ability. In mine, elves, dragons, mermaids, (the latter two of which are actually aliens, with mundane counterparts), and other fae can generate and use magic. Mundane beings, such as humans, don't generate enough magic to do anything of significance, and the few times humans try to use magic, it goes poorly, like aforementioned vampire. Magic generation is like a muscle, the more you "work out", the stronger your magic becomes. If one thinks of magic generation as muscles, then magic usage and spellcasting are like sports, the more you practise, the better you become, and there are different schools of magic. Just because you're good at using, let's say, fire, doesn't mean you'll be good at levitation, and vice versa. Just like any muscle, it can be worn out, and if you cast a bunch of spells, you will run out of mana, and have to rest, or drink a potion.

There's also the passive abilities. Each species of fae have a passive ability, such as the elven healing, and dragon invulnerability, which makes those two unique amongst some of the other fae as it renders them near immortal. Like all magic, it requires energy, or mana if you prefer. At any given time, a small portion of their mana goes into keeping up their ability, and just like the rest of their magic, it can fail if they run out of mana. For example, a dragon can withstand a certain amount of bullets. There's only so much they can take though before they start wearing down. Also, if they cast too much magic and run out of mana, all they have is naturally hard scales, which bullets pass through with ease.

About potions, some plants and animals carry magical properties in them. If you mix certain bits together, you new effects. These can be used by mundanes and fae alike, and can be mixed by mundanes, but fae are naturally better at it, as they can sense what magic to put in. There's also magic drainers, a type of tech that works as magical EMP, and distorts fae magic. This disables their spells use, and also disables their passive abilities, so in a fight, if one is used, an elf can bleed to death, a dragon can be killed easily, mermaids can drown, etc. Since vampires are kept undead by magic, disabling their magic with one of these kills them instantly.

So, do the passive abilities fit in, or are they just weird?

TheKrisSaysMoo · Jan 27, 2009

Honestly, these feral elves seem a bit on the scary side. I would give them a name that really hints at the dark side of nature.

Thomas_Anderson · Jan 27, 2009

eLf, thanks, I really like the idea of evolution and stuff. Thanks.

eLfwriter · Jan 27, 2009

No problem, Mr Anderson

(I had to use the Mr Anderson again, sorry)

Glad my rambling was helpful!

mscelina · Jan 27, 2009

There's nothing wrong with subverting a fantasy trope. I have a short story that's about swamp elves. *grin* Oh the joy of it--elves sloshing through slime, picking off leeches, fending off alligators, living somewhere smelly and generally nasty.

*sigh*

I love that story.

At any rate, here's the rule: it's your world. Make it yours and no one will question it. As long as you believe in the changes you make, your readers will find it credible and won't question it. So if you're going to do it, don't be half-assed about it. Go for it all the way.

Couple questions about elves

Unabashed Mercenary

memento mori

volitare nequeo

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Unabashed Mercenary

Also in our Discord and IRC chat channels

Odd person

Word butcher

Unabashed Mercenary

Around

Unabashed Mercenary

Around

Unabashed Mercenary

Infinite in Mystery

Indiscriminate Tree-Hugger

volitare nequeo

Indiscriminate Tree-Hugger

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you