Question About Bookstore Policies/POD Pubs

[Thane]

I am a published novelist, but something recently occurred to me.

My first book came out in 2007. My publisher told me he had printed 3,000 copies of my book, but later, he gave me conflicting information (for example, he later told me it was 1,000, then 5,000). At first, I thought he was just absent-minded.

Later on, a friend of mine (without asking me) tried to help me by calling up bookstores and ordering lots of copies of my book under mutliple names. He did not buy the books, but hoped that the stores would put them on the shelves after they were not purchased. However, the stores returned the books to the publisher.

The publisher then told me that he would have to deduct some of my royalties because, according to him, the bookstore charges him a fee if books are requested and then not purchased.

My first question is -- Is it common practice for bookstores to fine publishers for books that were ordered but not purchased?

My second question is -- Is it likely that the only reason that he charged me these fees was because he did not really print out a stockpile and he was printing on demand, thus requiring him to make up for his losses? This was a small publisher, so it did not surprise me that I could not walk into any store and find my book. But that means that he easily could have printed out maybe 50 copies and lied to me. There was no clause in the contract stating how many books were actually printed. I trusted him because he was listed in the Writer's Market, which is a reputable publication.

Furthermore, when he decided to terminate the contract (because my books weren't selling), he told me that he could send me the rest of the copies if I pay him $300 for postage. These were hardcover books, very good quality. If he sent me, let's say, 200 copies and had me pay $300 for them, would he be able to make some sort of scam profit? How much would it actually cost for a publisher to mail that many books?

Or am I being paranoid?

[Fenika]

Get it in writing that the contract is terminated as I'm guessing you gave up your rights to said book... you'll want them back. And to be clear of the publisher.

[Thane]

Actually, I'm not concerned about the rights. I just want to know if it was a real publication or a POD.

[Fenika]

Have you checked our bewares and background check forum? They might be listed there already.

[Karen Duvall]

Furthermore, when he decided to terminate the contract (because my books weren't selling), he told me that he could send me the rest of the copies if I pay him $300 for postage. These were hardcover books, very good quality. If he sent me, let's say, 200 copies and had me pay $300 for them, would he be able to make some sort of scam profit? How much would it actually cost for a publisher to mail that many books?

I don't know about the bookstore fees, as this issue gets more and more complicated every day, but I do know for certain that Amazon and B&N online charge the publisher fees for making a title available on their website. Regardless, if he's selling you 200 books and only charging you $300, which includes shipping and the price of the books, then take it. Sounds like a darn good deal to me. POD books cost a small fortune per copy, so I don't think your books are POD. Can you ask your publisher point blank about this?

[veinglory]

If your friend special ordered books under false names in significant numbers, I suspect the chain would levee a charge. They are rather tired of this kind of black hat "marketing".

If you want the real deal on the publisher I would recommend posting their name. You can use a fully anonymous account to do this. Members here can normally provide pretty good info about any press other than tiny micropresses of highly specialised publishers.

[James D. Macdonald]

Later on, a friend of mine (without asking me) tried to help me by calling up bookstores and ordering lots of copies of my book under mutliple names. He did not buy the books, but hoped that the stores would put them on the shelves after they were not purchased.

Folks, don't ever do this.

It isn't clever marketing; it's fraud.

[jgold]

Later on, a friend of mine (without asking me) tried to help me by calling up bookstores and ordering lots of copies of my book under mutliple names. He did not buy the books, but hoped that the stores would put them on the shelves after they were not purchased. However, the stores returned the books to the publisher.

Ditto what Jim said.

I used to do the local ordering for my Borders store, and I ran into this kind of stuff ALL THE TIME. Your friend isn't being clever or helpful. Not only would I return every copy that was ordered in the first place, I'd contact every store in the area and let them know about it, thus ensuring that NO ONE would stock the book.

As far as a fine, no. Bookstores wouldn't charge a fee to the publishers. They'd just return the books. However, many print-on-demand books aren't returnable to Ingram or their publishers, which is one reason why bookstores are leery about purchasing PODs in the first place.

It sounds like your publisher is trying to cut his losses by selling you the stuff he printed and can't sell to distributors.

[mario_c]

I worked in a Borders too, and special orders that are never picked up were a real nuisance. Books that gather dust just go back to the warehouse where they either get redistributed to a busier store, or go back to the publisher. So in that instance, I can imagine a publisher saying, well we're getting all your inventory returned to us. We're wasting money distributing your book that no one is buying, so it comes out of your royalties.
Well...I hope that's not happening.

For a big chain - and I'm guessing, I didn't work at the level jgold did regarding buying or ordering inventory - it's one thing for a publisher to get a crateload of copies of a book into the warehouse where the chain bookstore can distribute it appropriately. It is another thing entirely for a store to honor the request of local pests who want the book on a shelf where they can read it for free. This costs the store money because individual books have to be put on the delivery truck and shipped wherever in the country they go.
It's not worth it. Not when they sit and collect dust in the store, or everyone reads 'em for free.

[citymouse]

POD is both a technology and a business model. If your publisher used POD (print on demand) as a technology then I would question the need to buy back your book since in reality they don't exist yet.

You don't name your publisher so we don't know if it is a company that uses POD as a business model such as Author House, iUniverse, or Book Surge. These companies have non-exclusive contracts and as far as I know none has a penalty for canceling the contract.

Have you read your contract? What does it say?

BTW anyone who contemplates signing any kind of contract should contact a lawyer who specializes in the field.
I almost signed a contract with a Canadian outfit. My lawyer who specializes in publication contracts saved me the loss of my book rights, not to mention scads of money.
C




Actually, I'm not concerned about the rights. I just want to know if it was a real publication or a POD.

[JJ Cooper]

What they all said, plus: $300 for 200 hundred hardcovers sounds like a good deal for me. I have to pay 40% of the recommended retail price for my books from my publicher (around $13.00 per book I'd pay).

I'm with a traditional publisher though, can't help you out with POD sorry.

JJ

[citymouse]

40%-50% is the standard discount distributors / publishers offer bookstores. So one may conclude that these books do exist. If you have the space and the resources to distribute the book then why not? However, any bookstore you try to sell to will expect a minimum 40% off
so you won't be making any $$ especially once shipping is included.

You could offer you book to libraries and non-profit organizations that specialize in reading programs. That way you can at least get a tax deduction for the book and shipping costs.
C


What they all said, plus: $300 for 200 hundred hardcovers sounds like a good deal for me. I have to pay 40% of the recommended retail price for my books from my publicher (around $13.00 per book I'd pay).

I'm with a traditional publisher though, can't help you out with POD sorry.

JJ

[Thane]

I didn't actually pay him for the remainder of the books because I wanted to be a real author. That means I don't pay the publisher a dime for anything. However, that means there's no way I could tell how many books he had in stock.

However, he did send me 20 free copies once the book was published. He also sent me an additional 10 that came out of my royalties. It seems unlikely that a POD would do this, but still, I'd like to get some professional opinions as to whether or not this was a trick of some sort.

[brainstorm77]

If your friend special ordered books under false names in significant numbers, I suspect the chain would levee a charge. They are rather tired of this kind of black hat "marketing".

If you want the real deal on the publisher I would recommend posting their name. You can use a fully anonymous account to do this. Members here can normally provide pretty good info about any press other than tiny micropresses of highly specialised publishers.

Maybe thats why at Chapters if you order a book you have to prepay.

[citymouse]

I didn't actually pay him for the remainder of the books because I wanted to be a real author. That means I don't pay the publisher a dime for anything. However, that means there's no way I could tell how many books he had in stock.

However, he did send me 20 free copies once the book was published. He also sent me an additional 10 that came out of my royalties. It seems unlikely that a POD would do this, but still, I'd like to get some professional opinions as to whether or not this was a trick of some sort.

POD outfits do these (see red) but they are usually part of a promotional gimmick.

Without reading your contract no one will be able to say for sure that your publisher is tricking you. The terms of the contract are the only ones binding on both parties.

If you are happy with the price and the product there is nothing stopping you from hiring a small distributor (not Ingram, Baker & Taylor for example) and then marketing them yourself. I did that with two of my books. Once the books were warehoused at my distributor I sent out a press release (printed on glossy brochure paper) to every bookstore I could find from Australia to Scotland and points global. I sold all my books in about 12 months.
C

[veinglory]

One way to tell how many books were in stock would, surely, be to ask. if he wanted the money without even saying what you were buying, well, "eeep".

[Thane]

I did ask, but like I said, he gave me conflicting answers. One month, it was 3,000. The next, it was 5,000. The next, it was 1,000.

Plus, he can obviously lie.

I really wish I knew for sure because how many books he printed determines whether or not I am really a published author. Again, I never paid a dime to him for anything, but even then, if he only printed 50 copies, then I guess I'm not a published author.

[citymouse]

Is / was your book stocked in a bookstore? Is / was it available for purchase on any of the online catalogues, e.g Amazon.com?
Were you paid royalties for sales? If the answer is yes then you're a published author.
If the answer is no then I'd say you've got a good case to republish as a first time author--no first rights lost.

Again I stress, read your contract. It doesn't matter what the guy is telling you now. It's how the contract reads that matters. If you want the books then buy them BUT be sure the number of books and cost per book as well as shipping costs is spelled out in writing.

If you feel the "guy" is trying to steal from you then get a lawyer.
C

A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. ~ Samuel Goldwyn


I did ask, but like I said, he gave me conflicting answers. One month, it was 3,000. The next, it was 5,000. The next, it was 1,000.

Plus, he can obviously lie.

I really wish I knew for sure because how many books he printed determines whether or not I am really a published author. Again, I never paid a dime to him for anything, but even then, if he only printed 50 copies, then I guess I'm not a published author.

[Momento Mori]

Thane, who was the publisher? We can give you different opinions on the arrangement, but without the name of your publisher no one will be able to tell you if you've been with a POD publisher or a commercial publisher.

Thane:
I didn't actually pay him for the remainder of the books because I wanted to be a real author. That means I don't pay the publisher a dime for anything.

Not paying to be published is a good first step. But did the publisher pay you an advance in return for publication rights?

MM

[Thane]

Unfortunately, he did not pay me anything either. He gave me sales figures stating that my royalties were negative because my friend called up bookstores and ordered my book without buying it. I spent a lot of time going to bookstores and marketing my book, selling over 200 copies. I never saw a dime of royalties, but neither did I pay him.

One thing that just occurred to me -- I remember a year after the book was published, he was trying desperate tactics to sell my books. He called me up in despair, telling me he was losing a lot of money on my books. I believe him, but does that mean that he was just making up the money he lost from hiring an artist to make the cover art/print out 50 copies, or did he really print 1,000 copies and end up putting himself in debt?

[citymouse]

How the hell did he discover your friend did this? Did you tell him?
if so why? Such an admission would cast a bad light on you. You see what I mean?

Also I find it strange that a publisher (owner) would speak directly with an author unless the publisher was in "start up mode" with his business and is / was a one man show. Since you haven't mentioned an agent I take it you didn't have one. That would explain the publisher speaking with you directly.

BTW is this publisher still in business?

You say this publisher complained that he lost money due to your friend's antics, however, when bookstores buy books they BUY the books. They also pay the shipping. It matters not if the tactics were fraudulent. It is the bookstores that would be the ones stuck with the books unless the publisher learned of the scheme before hand and had a barn full of books he couldn't in conscience deliver. If he had learned of this situation before he did a print run he could have simply stopped the printing process at that point.

This brings me back to the CONTRACT. If the publisher made a contract that doesn't cover fraud either him or by you or a third party then that's on the publisher--not you. Oh, please, please say you have a signed contract!

Frankly Thane, none of this sounds right. Without knowing the publisher's name/website and a copy of the contract, no one here can be of much help.
C

[Laura Lond]

Something isn't right, I agree. Do you know any other authors published with this guy? Have you tried googling him / checking warning sites? Does anything come up?

[Thane]

He does have other authors, but I doubt they'd tell me truthfully if they are being paid royalties (if they're not, then they'd want to save face). Even if they are being paid, it doesn't mean that it's not a POD.

By the way, the publisher is DNA Press. Not DNA Publications, DNA Press.

[Momento Mori]

There's a thread in the Bewares and Background Check Forum on DNA Press here (http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10634) that you should check out. It looks to me that this is at best, little better than a self-publishing outfit (in which case it makes no difference to your sales figures whether they did a print run or used the POD model because you still won't sell many books) and at worst, is a vanity publisher.

If your publisher can't get books into stores, can't give you accurate figures on the number of books printed, relies on authors to drum up sales and can't even muster up enough sales to give you a royalty cheque, then it's time to leave that publisher and look for someone new.

MM

[citymouse]

Well it's clear from the DNA Press website that they are a very small outfit with just two people running the place (as far as I could tell). Throughout this whole discussion I was struck by the absence of a named distributor.

The DNA site reads (in part): "DNA Press books are distributed by major wholesalers such as Baker & Taylor (who own now the academic book distributor J.A. Majors); INGRAM Book Group"

Interesting phrasing, major wholesalers such as; don't you think? It doesn't say that they DO use B&T or Ingram but wholesalers such as B&T and Ingram. That's like saying that I took a cruise on a ship like the QEII. Get my point?

Now I'm not implying that DNA is not on the up and up. From looking at their website I can easily see why they say they can't absorb the lost costs of printing hundreds of books for which there are no real customers.

Thane you don't give a timeline here. If the books were ordered and sent to bookstores then $$$ must have changed hands. This is the US. You can't get a burger at Mickey Ds without paying up first!
If on the other hand the books were printed but not sent because the fraud was discovered, then one would conclude that the books are sitting in a storehouse somewhere.

Why not make your so-called friend pay for them? After all he / she is the one who kicked this can down the street in the first place.

Thane, someone (can't remember who) suggested you visit Amazon.com and see if your book is listed there. If it is, bingo! Your original question is answered, yes you are a published author.

BTW what's your book title?

Good Luck!
C

[nevada]

Did you guys notice that Natrea, a division of DNA, requires its authors to buy at least 400 copies of their book because of the state of the economy? That is, ummmmm, interesting.

[citymouse]

The more we stir this the worse it stinks. Personally I think I've contributed enough to this thread. I notice that most of us have typed paragraphs and get one sentence replies and those are vague.

Bye, Bye.
C

[James D. Macdonald]

Believe it or not, much of bookselling is done on credit, and nothing is really paid for until a customer plunks down cash at the counter in a bookstore.

Books that go to bookstores generally go there on a fully-returnable basis, with the publisher paying the freight. At the end of some period of time the bookstore either returns the book or forwards the cash.

I'd have to know what was in the contract before I could figure out what's going on.

Meanwhile, it would behoove every author to find out everything they can about any publisher they're considering, before submitting a manuscript.

[Thane]

Actually, my book is on amazon. Then again, so are PublishAmerica's books.

Also, I just realized something else. A year after the book came out, they sent me a box filled with dust jackets of my book. They told me that they "overprinted" the jackets and that I should distribute them as advertisements.

The question is -- How come those jackets don't have books with them? It seems unlikely that they would print more jackets than books (I'm pretty sure the same company handles both). Were they really using those jackets for their POD operation?

You're right, the more I think about this, the more it reeks. This is incredibly depressing, since for all these years, I thought I really was a published novelist.

[Momento Mori]

Thane:
How come those jackets don't have books with them? It seems unlikely that they would print more jackets than books (I'm pretty sure the same company handles both). Were they really using those jackets for their POD operation?

Thane, we seem to be going around in circles here. Instead of being concerned about whether there was a print run or you were printed on a POD model, or what the purpose of those dust jackets was you need to go and take a look at your contract and see how you go about getting out of it (assuming that's what you want to do).

So far as I know, no one on this thread is a psychic and therefore no one here is going to be able to give you a definitive answer to questions like this. In any event, your questions are a distraction from the main issue with your publisher, i.e. that they are not set up to get books into stores and they are not set up to market and distribute your book.

Thane:
This is incredibly depressing, since for all these years, I thought I really was a published novelist.

I'm sorry that you've not been published in the way you think you've been published, but the best way of picking yourself up is to start working on another book and begin the process of researching legitimate agents and commercial publishers and learn about how the industry works.

MM