Does poetry have to be about something substantial?

[Epicurean]

Why can't I write about a long toenail?

[Feiss]

If you want to write about your long toenail
how it arcs toward the clouds,
pierces them, and jabs the flying cranes in the ass,
I would never stop you, for reals, fo rail


Also, someone already has written about toes and toe nails:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=294081&postcount=29

[caseyquinn]

you can write about whatever you want to write about.

the difference is that most people want other people to read their work, so they write about topics other people will find interesting and can relate to.

[Epicurean]

If you want to write about your long toenail
how it arcs toward the clouds,
pierces them, and jabs the flying cranes in the ass,
I would never stop you, for reals, fo rail


Also, someone already has written about toes and toe nails:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=294081&postcount=29

Yes, but poorly.

[poetinahat]

It's not the topic, but the writing, that makes a poem worth reading. A topic is a hook.

That's oversimplifying, but look at The Red Wheelbarrow, or Ode on a Grecian Urn.

I think it's actually easier to pick a very, very narrow topic and write about it than to try to capture the Hundred Years' War in fourteen lines.

ETA: Feiss has already proved my point. Rapscallion.

[Epicurean]

you can write about whatever you want to write about.

the difference is that most people want other people to read their work, so they write about topics other people will find interesting and can relate to.

Do you know why no one reads poetry? Vague literary allusions and imagery about nature and water and trees and stuff.

That is why Shel Silverstein rocks and Ezra Pound is a pompous poophead.

[poetinahat]

Whose "nobody" are you talking about?

Sure, if you want to sell a million copies, poetry isn't where you'd start. No argument there.

But if that's what one is after, one is probably not that interested in poetry anyway.

[Epicurean]

Whose "nobody" are you talking about?

Nobody = the general public

Sure, if you want to sell a million copies, poetry isn't where you'd start. No argument there. But if that's what one is after, one is probably not that interested in poetry anyway.

Where did this come from? I didn't mention money at all in my reply to the other poster. But since you brought it up, I don't know why liking the idea of making a lot of money doing what I like means that I'm not interested in poetry.

He implied that I should pick a topic that interests people and I said in my own roundabout way that who cares what interests people. I like Shel Silverstein and I hate Ezra Pound. Both are published poets and both wrote about vastly different things. Maybe my poem about toenails won't move him in any way but I don't really care.

[poetinahat]

And I disagree with the notion that topic is everything. If you'll read my earlier post, you'll see that. But if you insist on writing about toenails... or "poo haiku"... you can expect to alienate some readers right off the bat. Then again, in picking such topics, I'd expect you're out to challenge readers anyway.

But there is a poet right here who writes beautifully, marvelously, about all sorts of such topics. Look for anything here by trumancoyote.

Write as well as he does, and I'll read with relish. Write poorly, and I don't care what the topic is.

I equated 'nobody reads...' with sales. If that seems inapt to you, so be it.

But your assessment of Ezra Pound is personal. I disagree.

But that's not important. What is more important is that we all know who Ezra Pound is. SOMEbody must be reading him.

I see no reason for either of us to be offended; healthy disagreement is a fine thing. Keeps things interesting. I'm glad you've started this thread, and I look forward to seeing where it goes.

[Epicurean]

I have one in the poetry critique section. It's about frogs. And then you will see the power of my verse!

[Epicurean]

I wasn't offended. It's message board stuff. I argue for the sake of arguing.

[Stew21]

You can write about whatever you'd like, but in my experience, readers like to read something that gives them an emotional response or challenges their thinking, either by looking at something familiar in a new way or looking at something new with familiar emotion. Good writing is the only way to draw emotion from your reader.

[scarletpeaches]

Why can't I write about a long toenail?

Who says you can't?

you can write about whatever you want to write about.

the difference is that most people want other people to read their work, so they write about topics other people will find interesting and can relate to.

I find toenails rather interesting. More so than clouds and puppies and rainbows.

...ETA: Feiss has already proved my point. Rapscallion.

I shall write a poem about how much I want you to call me a rapscallion.

Do you know why no one reads poetry? Vague literary allusions and imagery about nature and water and trees and stuff...

Exactly. A lot of poetry is about showing off. Or maybe I'm just thick. I don't get a lot of it. I do, however, 'get' rhyme and form.

And toenails.

You can write about whatever you'd like, but in my experience, readers like to read something that gives them an emotional response or challenges their thinking, either by looking at something familiar in a new way or looking at something new with familiar emotion. Good writing is the only way to draw emotion from your reader.

I like writers (of both prose and poetry) who can make the mundane pulse with vitality.

That is probably the most serious answer you'll get out of me today.

[KTC]

Get to the heart of the topic you choose. Lift it to a height where the reader is stunned, and I won't give a shit if you write about cheese or toenails. The topic can be mundane, the poem cannot be mundane.

[scarletpeaches]

What about cheesy toenails?

[Epicurean]

Get to the heart of the topic you choose. Lift it to a height where the reader is stunned, and I won't give a shit if you write about cheese or toenails. The topic can be mundane, the poem cannot be mundane.

You can write about whatever you'd like, but in my experience, readers like to read something that gives them an emotional response or challenges their thinking, either by looking at something familiar in a new way or looking at something new with familiar emotion. Good writing is the only way to draw emotion from your reader.

What do you think separates one excellent poem from another when vying for publication? Is it the editors preference? Does celebrity have anything to do with it? There must be thousands of MFA poets and thousands of great poets without MFAs who are trying to get published in magazines like The Atlantic Monthly or The New Yorker. I read an interview of David Barber in which he stated that many of the submissions he receives "are competent but conventional." What does that even mean?

[William Haskins]

this should be a fun little chapter.

[NeuroFizz]

It's possible to write about taking a crap, but on second read, is it really about taking a crap, or is it about something else with the crap thing just a hanger-on? Poetry can be fun, but for it to be fun, it's really helps to play around with the topic in a somewhat intellectual way (not saying the following is a good example, mind you).

I Hold You So Briefly

As a twinge you begin
building quickly in force
until you totally consume
my sensory world

Then you play with me
have your way with me
and like a birth
you are free to move on

As you circle, sashay
you carry away
all that disagrees with
my constitution

An amendment of that
taken in with desire
open-flied, satisfied
from my gluttonous lust

And I feel so much better
for it

[Norman D Gutter]

Epi:

As many have stated, the subject of a poem does not have to be some grand theme, such as avoiding war or meeting God or everlasting love or . Many poems have been written about seemingly minor topics, but by metaphor or other implication have been applicable to some grand theme that has been enjoyed by many. I would agree that [I]in generalthe narrower the subject matter the more likely the poem will be good.

As to other items that have come up in this thread:
- In poetry, good writing trumps good story or topic, IMHO. That may not be true of prose.
- While I agree with you that "There must be thousands of MFA poets and thousands of great poets without MFAs who are trying to get published in magazines like The Atlantic Monthly or The New Yorker," the same can be said for writers of prose. Thousands or perhaps millions of novel and non-fiction manuscripts are in circulation; authors in search of publication. I find no difference here between poetry and prose. What Mr. Barber said about competent and conventional is true about any type of writing.
- "What do you think separates one excellent poem from another when vying for publication?" For publication, editor's preference is the only standard, and of course this varies for each editor. I'm sure with some editors and publishers celebrity matters (e.g. Jewel; e.g. Paul McCartney). Whether there is an objective standard of what constitute's a good poem is a question far beyond the scope of this thread. Sound and Sense has a chapter on this that is well worth reading.

Best Regards,
NDG

[Cassiopeia]

Why can't I write about a long toenail?Who are you writing for? Is it important to you for others to like what you write? What's your main objective in writing poetry?

Neurofizz has shown us that you can write about crap and still be eloquent. If he hadn't prefaced it by telling me it was about crap I wouldn't have known it.

I think the point for me is that when I do write poetry, I want it to mean something to every person who reads it. Whether they have their own interpretation or follow along with mine.

And no, I wouldn't find a poem about a long toenail fascinating but that's besides the point. I'm quite sure someone will. Again, it comes back to the questions I asked above.

[dclary]

I wasn't offended. It's message board stuff. I argue for the sake of arguing.

Maybe go hang out in OP or TIO or P/CE then? No one in this forum is intersted in flaming for flames' sake.

[KTC]

Maybe go hang out in OP or TIO or P/CE then? No one in this forum is intersted in flaming for flames' sake.

my thoughts exactly.

[Cassiopeia]

I think there's a tendency on the internet to think of most forums as debate forums and people confuse discussion with debate. :(

[veinglory]

You can write about anything. And the audience for triviality is, IMHO, as big or larger than the audience for substance. There is humor poetry, greating card poetry, childrens book etc etc etc

[William Haskins]

there's the issue of metaphor. i've written about roadkill, but it wasn't really about roadkill at all, but rather the human condition.

so things aren't always what they seem at first glance.

[Kate Thornton]

I think lots of good poetry is really about the human condition.

Most good prose I read, especially good genre prose, is really about the human condition.

[Stew21]

there's the issue of metaphor. i've written about roadkill, but it wasn't really about roadkill at all, but rather the human condition.

so things aren't always what they seem at first glance.

Ode to Roadkill (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33813&highlight=roadkill) is a great example for this discussion. It is a great example of how a piece may look simple on the surface, but is not necessarily so simple.

and yes, Kate, human condition makes for good subject matter in prose and poetry, but how it's done has a great deal to do with how well it is received.

[veinglory]

I think a lot of good poetry is about puns, pratfalls and how furry animals are kind of cute. Poetry is a format, not a genre. It embraces literary and genre, non-fiction and fiction, etc.

[Feiss]

Yes, but poorly.

I thought it was fantastically funny, actually.

Look, I haven't responded seriously to you till now, but now I will, because although most of me feel like you're trolling, part of me thinks you actually want to write poems, so here's my advice, as flawed as it may be: Read more poetry, people on this forum write fantastic stuff, and most of it is rendered from the minute to encompass something more. For example, on the first page, there's a poem about a mundane breakfast and how it relates to relationships, writer's block, and molecular biology in relation to the soul. The reason your poem didn't work, and didn't get serious responses is because very very few people care about frog sex, when it's just frog sex. Your audience are not frogs, most of them are not people who study amphibians, you don't give us anything to relate to.

Poetinahat is right, if you want to be a person who writes poems about nonconventional subjects, then read TrumanCoyote's poems, they grab you by the throat and throttle you till you're sad deep within, but also redeemed, somehow. And that is a reaction that every one of us wants.

One about a horse: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31581

Saving Face in China;
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38257

[Stew21]

I had a blast yesterday reading a book of poetry for kids to my kids yesterday. The language and rhyme was a joy. It wasn't about content so much as word play and funny scenarios. Of course they would have failed miserably if they hadn't been written very well - with exact meter, attention to form, and a solid and vivid image to work from.

[Stew21]

If we're going to look at Truman's work, this one makes the mark and sets the bar high for being light on the surface but really not. It's all about the writing and how people can relate to it.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30383

and this:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28605

[Feiss]

If we're going to look at Truman's work, this one makes the mark and sets the bar high for being light on the surface but really not. It's all about the writing and how people can relate to it.
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30383

and this:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28605


Oh how I loved those.

[Cassiopeia]

The reason your poem didn't work, and didn't get serious responses is because very very few people care about frog sex, when it's just frog sex. Your audience are not frogs, most of them are not people who study amphibians, you don't give us anything to relate to. Wait, it was about frog sex? Really? oh man did I miss that.

*goes back to reread*