When to introduce the villain?

[Geraint]

Hello all, can you help me out with a writing dilemma? All opinions welcome!

I've worked out a plot for a fantasy series to span perhaps 3 or 4 books. I have in mind a character who will eventually emerge as the main enemy/arch-villain, but my main characters aren't going to interact with him at all in book 1. So I thought it might be a good idea to flag him up at the start, in an ominous prologue, even though he won't actually feature in the main story until a later book. But now I've tried this, it doesn't seem convincing - it feels contrived, like the trial scene at the beginning of the Superman film, i.e. entirely detached from the rest of the story and only there to set up the sequel. Any thoughts or opinions? If you've read fantasy novels which have started in this way, do you think it works? Or conversely, if the main bad guy doesn't even get a mention until he turns up in book 2 or 3, will the reader feel cheated?

[Makai_Lightning]

I personally wouldn't have a prologue just to introduce a villian if he's not showing up in the book at hand. It's a case where you make the reader ask, "Why should I care?" It's more likely to cause confusion than to clear it up, on the placement. Besides which, I'm a firm believer that each book should be able to stand on it's own, for it's own merit; that means, your first goal is to make each book it's best, which means cutting things that don't need to be in that book. Some things, you'd need, but if it's a continueing storyline that's fine--not everything can be tied up at the end anyway. But if your evil character simply has no real reason to be there yet, then unless you can work him in as a character some other way or forshadow things, I don't think you need a prologue setting him up yet--unless whatever's happening in the prologue has direct effect on your current plot. Then it's still debateable, but you might have more merit for it.

[Diana Hignutt]

When to introduce the villain is simple: When the flow of the story calls for it, no sooner, no later. If you're introducing the villain, it must be to move the story forward. If the villain's presence isn't required by the flow of the story, then they must wait for the proper time to begin their villainy. There that was helpful, wasn't it?

[dwellerofthedeep]

I agree with Diana that it varies from story to story.

I've read somewhere that the sooner the protagonist and the villain meet the more tension the story can have.

I think that is true to some extent, but there are other ways to increase tension and depending on the manner of villain it might be hard to have him/her meet the hero too early. This is sci-fi/fantasy though, so maybe a view of the villain from a distance, or a non-confrontational meeting would work.

When you introduce the villain could also vary based on how important the villain is. If the villain is fairly minor and his/her antagonism is not the most important part of the story than they don't need to be around as much. Of course, introducing the villain without him/her meeting the hero is a decent idea too, especially if you want to introduce the villain through good qualities first and they are enemies with the hero from the start.

Anyway, I love villains of all kinds. The book I'm editing now has 3-4 villains introduced in different ways but I think this post is getting long enough so if you want examples I can come back later.

[ChaosTitan]

If your villain doesn't show up until book two, where does your conflict in book one come from?

[zornhau]

Make the villain's presence felt in book 1, but in a sort of background way. E.g., characters curse the Evil overlord's new taxes, which make unicorn farming (themain plot) even harder.

[Nivarion]

or if they are dealing with another minor villan, and the villan is just a lacky henchman of the main villan, then introduce him through lines simillar to "My boss" and such.

[dclary]

I've read somewhere that the sooner the protagonist and the villain meet the more tension the story can have.


Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker see each other for the first time at the end of the second act.

William Wallace never meets Edward Longshanks.

Frodo and Sam never meet either Saruman nor Sauron.

[eyeblink]

Come to that, Harry Lime turns up over an hour into The Third Man. But he's foreshadowed considerably up to then. The danger would be to introduce a major character (particularly a viewpoint character) too late on with no prior build-up - if you're not careful the gear-shift the reader will have to do might kill their interest. "Who is this new character and why should I care?"

[Smiling Ted]

Hello all, can you help me out with a writing dilemma? All opinions welcome!

I've worked out a plot for a fantasy series to span perhaps 3 or 4 books. I have in mind a character who will eventually emerge as the main enemy/arch-villain, but my main characters aren't going to interact with him at all in book 1. So I thought it might be a good idea to flag him up at the start, in an ominous prologue, even though he won't actually feature in the main story until a later book. But now I've tried this, it doesn't seem convincing - it feels contrived, like the trial scene at the beginning of the Superman film, i.e. entirely detached from the rest of the story and only there to set up the sequel. Any thoughts or opinions? If you've read fantasy novels which have started in this way, do you think it works? Or conversely, if the main bad guy doesn't even get a mention until he turns up in book 2 or 3, will the reader feel cheated?

Since we don't know anything about what happens in your story, we can't really answer your question in a meaningful way...no matter how strong our opinions.

But if your villain really has nothing to do with your characters in the first book...then focus on the first book and finish it. Once you've actually written "the end," you will have answered this question (and others) for yourself. And if you need to go back and make changes, you can do so.

[badducky]

I think the notion of "Villian" is quite not the right way to view things, these days.

Everyone is the hero in their own fantasy.

My favorite example of how to do it right, at the moment, is David Anthony Durham's "Acacia". Every character that makes a choice of evil does so because they believe it is the way to achieve their own greatness, or great ends. Every betrayal is an act of heroism. (Okay, almost every betrayal... Still, check the book out, and notice how every bad guy could easily be the hero in a different book.)

I think, as to your original question, Diana gave you the right answer. To which, I hope I expanded upon adequately.

[Geraint]

Fantastic, thanks everyone. This has all helped considerably and made things crystal clear for me (amazingly so, considering that none of you knows any details of my story, Ted!) I know the score now: let the villain arrive in his own time and not before. Thanks Makai & Diana, & all of you in fact - I though everyone was very consistent on this. ChaosTitan, I already have another villain to create the tension in any case, which should be quite enough for one book, so I'll save the second one until it makes sense to bring him in. I agree with Eyeblink too, but I've got plenty of chapters before I even need to start foreshadowing him. And yes badducky, I agree a credible "villain" needs to have an honourable justification for his actions in his own mind (I used the word "villain" as I couldn't think of anything better - I kicked myself afterwards for not thinking of "antagonist").

This site is great - I can definitely see myself becoming a regular.

[Stunted]

I would be annoyed if a huge new villain showed up in the second book. I don't know what the solution would be.

[dwellerofthedeep]

Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker see each other for the first time at the end of the second act.

William Wallace never meets Edward Longshanks.

Frodo and Sam never meet either Saruman nor Sauron.


And I said there are other ways to build tension. I meant plenty of other ways, but having the villain and hero face to face from page one is one of them.

[IdiotsRUs]

Thing is with those example - though they don't meet till later ( if at all) the threat of them is there almost from the off. The reader / viewer knows about them, knows the threat they pose to the protags.

They don't need to meet for tension- but maybe they need to be aware. The antag has to be doing something to thwart the protags.

[dclary]

And I said there are other ways to build tension. I meant plenty of other ways, but having the villain and hero face to face from page one is one of them.
I was agreeing with you.

[MattW]

Page 37.

Or earlier. Perhaps later.


But definitely on page 37. Give or take.

[kristin724]

Its not sf/f, but I can tell you what not to do. In the last few Sharpe novels by Bernard Cornwell, he's introduced the villian's pov in the last fifty pages in the final battle. That's a little late!

I imagine as soon as the story demands it would make sense. When you can't provide his information any other way but to present him.

[HeronW]

If there's no antagonist (A)--where is the conflict for the protagonist (P)?

Yes, P can have inner turmoil, be confronting nature, staving off anciliary wars, etc, but I like a P with as equal or greater A. Maybe A is manipulating others to attack P, or has the wherewithall to influence weather or minds and these cause P to try and overcome different acts. P may not know who/what A is or link the various troubles until the end.

[dempsey]

I would be annoyed if a huge new villain showed up in the second book. I don't know what the solution would be.

Didn't much care for Emperor Palpatine, did you? :)

[Pthom]

What about a tiny new villain?

[Ruv Draba]

I've worked out a plot for a fantasy series to span perhaps 3 or 4 books.Geraint, can you write one good novel yet? If you can, then you should surely know where the conflict in book 1 comes from. You wouldn't need to ask the villain question.

If you can't, then is it wise to spread your story ideas across four books? Might you be better off selecting your best ideas and putting them into one good book?

[Darzian]

My WIP is projected to be 75K. I'm on 40K and the villain hasn't appeared yet. He's going to appear soon but no one's going to realize he's the villain. I think it's the best possible way to write this story. He comes when he comes.

Also, if this is your first novel, I DO advise planning a stand alone (with series potential if necessary).

[zornhau]

Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker see each other for the first time at the end of the second act.

William Wallace never meets Edward Longshanks.

Frodo and Sam never meet either Saruman nor Sauron.

Yes, but they do act. Star Wars doesn't open with a prologue showing how evil Darth Vader is.

[Geraint]

is it wise to spread your story ideas across four books? Might you be better off selecting your best ideas and putting them into one good book?

Thanks RD (and Darzian), I'm sure that's very sensible advice. And if I'd discovered AW a few years back I'm sure I would have taken it. But I'm afraid I'm in too deep now, after a good few years of turning the plot over in my head and sketching out all sorts of scenes and events... I really can't now imagine condensing it into one book - I think I'd find it easier to write an entirely new novel! (Which might not be a bad idea - a sort of prequel to the series in my head...)

[Kate Thornton]

Sometimes the bad guy or gal or thing is introduced through the results of their villainy - the children are missing or the villagers are cowering or the land is fouled or the waters are boiling or the chocolate is gone.

These results should be the basis for the storyline of the book - the story being the protagonist's quest to remedy the bad situation(s).

You can have a pretty successful quest story without ever seeing the villain if He/she/it is vanquished somehow and the bad stuff resolved by the end.

But the bad stuff must be introduced early or there's nothing for the protagonist to do.

PS I'm the Queen of Condensing, so I think there's no story so big it can't be reduced to one book (and that includes Tolkein!)

[Darzian]

Thanks RD (and Darzian), I'm sure that's very sensible advice. And if I'd discovered AW a few years back I'm sure I would have taken it. But I'm afraid I'm in too deep now, after a good few years of turning the plot over in my head and sketching out all sorts of scenes and events... I really can't now imagine condensing it into one book - I think I'd find it easier to write an entirely new novel! (Which might not be a bad idea - a sort of prequel to the series in my head...)

You don't necessarily have to condense the entire story into one book. Instead, make sure that the first book is a stand alone with series potential. ie. the first book should have a proper beginning, middle and ending. Even in a series, I prefer it if each book has a story of its own with a proper ending. I would advise against leaving it with a powerful cliffhanger and no proper resolution.;)

[Ruv Draba]

Thanks RD (and Darzian), I'm sure that's very sensible advice. And if I'd discovered AW a few years back I'm sure I would have taken it. But I'm afraid I'm in too deep now, after a good few years of turning the plot over in my head and sketching out all sorts of scenes and events... I really can't now imagine condensing it into one bookDon't believe it, Geraint! If it seems like writing 3-4 novels off a few plot ideas is smooth sailing compared to finishing a single novel from scratch then you haven't dealt yet with broken throughlines, weak character arcs, poor dialogue, turgid scenes and narrative sloppy as blowtorched brie.

No matter how long they've taken you to produce, plot ideas are cheap. It's all the stuff above, and the character design problems beneath them, that are expensive to corrrect.

I'm sorry to tell you that the hard work is probably ahead of you, not behind. The very best thing you can do to reduce the interminable revisions likely awaiting you is to write a single, simple, well-resolved plot and keep it absolutely focused on a handful of your best, most passionate, most conflicted characters. It may take the ideas of more than one book to produce that, but you must have that in your first book. So condense if that's what it takes to put your first-rate ideas together and winnow your second-rate ideas ruthlessly. Once you hit revision time, you'll be so glad you did.

Yours in egg-sucking advice,

Ruv.

[Geraint]

Don't believe it, Geraint! If it seems like writing 3-4 novels off a few plot ideas is smooth sailing compared to finishing a single novel from scratch then you haven't dealt yet with broken throughlines, weak character arcs, poor dialogue, turgid scenes and narrative sloppy as blowtorched brie.

No matter how long they've taken you to produce, plot ideas are cheap. It's all the stuff above, and the character design problems beneath them, that are expensive to corrrect.

I'm sorry to tell you that the hard work is probably ahead of you, not behind. The very best thing you can do to reduce the interminable revisions likely awaiting you is to write a single, simple, well-resolved plot and keep it absolutely focused on a handful of your best, most passionate, most conflicted characters. It may take the ideas of more than one book to produce that, but you must have that in your first book. So condense if that's what it takes to put your first-rate ideas together and winnow your second-rate ideas ruthlessly. Once you hit revision time, you'll be so glad you did.

Yours in egg-sucking advice,

Ruv.

Wow. That made me think.

Ruv, I'm very glad you explained your point so clearly, as otherwise there was no way I would have wanted to hear it. I'm pretty proud of my plot, you know? But after cursing you in my sleep for a few hours, I've woken up with some thoughts about how I might get a stand-alone out of it. Plus, from some feedback I've received on SYW I've realised that cutting out words makes my story stronger. I'm not there yet but starting to think about it seriously.

Many thanks Ruv.

[yanallefish]

I agree with Ruv Draba. Too many books these days spread over stuff, where content could be better done if it's with just the best stuff in one or two books.

As to the villain thing, another thought might be to have him/her/it appear in the beginning of the book -- not a prologue, mind you -- but not have it obvious that he/she/it is the bad guy, so that could add tension as the protag finds out the hard way who this person really is.

[Ruv Draba]

I'm pretty proud of my plot, you know? But after cursing you in my sleep for a few hours, I've woken up with some thoughts about how I might get a stand-alone out of it. Plus, from some feedback I've received on SYW I've realised that cutting out words makes my story stronger. I'm not there yet but starting to think about it seriously.

Good luck to you, Geraint! Since you seem to start with plot first (as do I), let me offer two tools: one helps you work out which parts of your plot are worth keeping; the other helps you make any part of your plot better.

The first tool is called 'so what'. It helps protect you from being too impressed by 'big-budget' special effects and focus on character impacts. It's best shown by illustration, so here goes:

Frodo has to drop the One Ring into the Crack of Doom!
So what?
So.. uh... the ring's really evil and it's really hard to get to and it's patrolled by orcs and there's no food or water and...
So what?
So he can't possibly get there alone...
So what?
So he relies on two people: a creature who wants the Ring for itself, and his best friend.
So what?
So the creature, who knows how to get there, turns him against his best friend, who only wants what's best for him. And the Ring helps.

Ah.... That's what makes this bit of the story important. It's not a story of rings and volcanoes but a story of friendship and hardship and trust.

So what takes your plot ideas and turns them into deep, inner character conflicts. Unless you love revisions you must not start writing your plot until you've so-whatted it to death. :)

The second tool I'd like to offer you comes from author, editor and writing coach Sol Stein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Stein). It's called Secret Snapshot.

Imagine an image that's so personal and private that you'd never even keep it in your wallet. You'd never show it to a friend or family. Especially not a friend or family.

What is it?

For me, one of those images is a snapshot of a dying chicken -- a beautiful rooster with a chestnut satin coat, dying of old age.

Why is that image important? What does it mean to you?

For me, that image was the first time I really understood what it was to lose a loved-one to death, and what survivors must do to honour the dying and the dead. It's a lesson that has sat so deeply in me that I'd never told anyone until I did that exercise.

Now, how does that connect to your story? To your characters?

What this does, Geraint, is help you write from passion -- not just from clever and wow. When we see Frodo and Bilbo struggling up the mountain, we don't just see conflict. We feel Tolkien's understanding of friendship and what it costs. And why it's worth it.

If you're a writer who thinks of plots first, I believe that this is the most important thing to learn. It will make even your second-rate ideas first-rate.

Very best of luck with your endeavours!

[IdiotsRUs]

Ruv has, as always, put it so well there's almost no need to add anything. :D

When we see Frodo and Bilbo struggling up the mountain, we don't just see conflict. We feel Tolkien's understanding of friendship and what it costs. And why it's worth it. *cough* Sam *cough*In effect we see Tolkien's own personal snapshot of his experience in the trenches of WWI, and knowing that makes it even more pogniant imo.

I'd have to second / third / whatever the idea of each book should be kinda stand alone, even if there are interlinking plots / characters. Each book should have it's own arc and resolution ( even if you leave a few things loose for the next, the main problem should be resolved). I can't tell you how it gets on my pecs to read a book only to find it's basically all a set up for book 2, that there is no resolution. Book 2 rarely gets read.

[Ruv Draba]

*cough* Sam *cough*Sheesh.:e2hammer:

[Geraint]

Well, what can I say? I've gained infinitely more from this thread than just an answer to my original question (although I got that too). Your comments have had a fundamental impact on the whole structure of my WIP. I didn't expect that! Thank you so much to everyone who replied, and particular thanks to Ruv. Excuse me if I bow out of this thread now and get on with re-writing my plot...