The Times Online says: this is not a mere economic downturn, this is the End of Days

[Plot Device]

It's "only" an editorial. But here's what this fine English fellow has to say:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/jeremy_clarkson/article5292547.ece


Vauxhall Insignia 2.8 V6
An adequate way to drive to hell

by Jeremy Clarkson

From The Sunday Times -- December 7, 2008


I was in Dublin last weekend, and had a very real sense I’d been invited to the last days of the Roman empire.... Everyone appeared to be drunk on naked hedonism. I’ve never seen so much jus being drizzled onto so many improbable things, none of which was potted herring. It was like Barcelona but with beer. And as I careered from bar to bar all I could think was: “Jesus. Can’t they see what’s coming?” .... Can they not see the financial meteorite coming?

[...]

It’s the same story on this side of the Irish Sea, of course. We’re all still plunging hither and thither, guzzling wine and wondering what preposterously expensive electronic toys the children will want to smash on Christmas morning this year. We can’t see the meteorite coming either.

I think mainly this is because the government is not telling us the truth. It’s painting Gordon Brown as a global economic messiah and fiddling about with Vat, pretending that the coming recession will be bad. But that it can deal with it.

I don’t think it can. I have spoken to a couple of pretty senior bankers in the past couple of weeks and their story is rather different. They don’t refer to the looming problems as being like 1992 or even 1929. They talk about a total financial meltdown. They talk about the End of Days.

[...]

It is impossible for someone who scored a U in his economics A-level to grapple with the consequences of all this but I’m told that in simple terms money will cease to function as a meaningful commodity.




I've always wanted to be a first hand witness to a ... nah, I take it back. I've never wanted that.

If anything, I've always wanted to successfully learn from the mistakes made by our forebears of the past, and then prepare myself for the worst possible scenario capable of unfolding in the future so that I could ride it out with ease. But life seems to have beaten me to the punch. Prepared I most certainly am NOT.




.

[William Haskins]

the only usefulness that could be served by the "end of days"/"we're doomed" crowd would be if they all arranged to assemble and jump off a cliff together.

[Tirjasdyn]

I was in Dublin last weekend, and had a very real sense I’d been invited to the last days of the Roman empire.... Everyone appeared to be drunk on naked hedonism

I just want to ask....has he ever been to Dublin before?

[KTC]

the only usefulness that could be served by the "end of days"/"we're doomed" crowd would be if they all arranged to assemble and jump off a cliff together.


Bravo. Of course, they would land on the idiots who jumped on Dec 31/99.

[cethklein]

Is it just me or does every clown who preaches the End Times usually end up asking for money from people before it's all over? I wonder how long before these clowns start doing that.

"The world is going to end, so you'd may as well let us hold onto your money, you wont' be needing it."

Part of me wants to condemn people who do this but at the same time, if you can fin idiots dumb enough to fork over their money, said idiots really don't deserve said money anyway.

[Rolling Thunder]

I don’t think it can. I have spoken to a couple of pretty senior bankers in the past couple of weeks and their story is rather different. They don’t refer to the looming problems as being like 1992 or even 1929. They talk about a total financial meltdown. They talk about the End of Days.

Maybe the ugly senior bankers know something the pretty ones don't. ;)

[robeiae]

Is it just me or does every clown who preaches the End Times usually end up asking for money from people before it's all over? I wonder how long before these clowns start doing that.

"The world is going to end, so you'd may as well let us hold onto your money, you wont' be needing it."

Part of me wants to condemn people who do this but at the same time, if you can fin idiots dumb enough to fork over their money, said idiots really don't deserve said money anyway.Really, the best idea would probably be for you and everyone else to give me all your money, so I can help protect it from these kinds of hucksters. It's awful, the way some will prey on others...

[kuwisdelu]

Everyone appeared to be drunk on naked hedonism. I’ve never seen so much jus being drizzled onto so many improbable things, none of which was potted herring. It was like Barcelona but with beer. And as I careered from bar to bar all I could think was: “Jesus. Can’t they see what’s coming?” .... Can they not see the financial meteorite coming?

Uhh . . . maybe they can.

WHO WANTS TO BE SOBER DURING THE END OF DAYS???

[sulong]

If anything, I've always wanted to successfully learn from the mistakes made by our forebears of the past, and then prepare myself for the worst possible scenario capable of unfolding in the future so that I could ride it out with ease. But life seems to have beaten me to the punch. Prepared I most certainly am NOT.

.

Don't worry Plot, trade will flourish regardless what happens to the dollar or any other currency. The same principles that apply to successful trade now, will apply in the future.

[brokenfingers]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm gonna party like it's 1999.

[ClaudiaGray]

I'm with Sulong. it's not the End of Days for most of us. Now, for bigwig finance bankers? That's another story ....

[robeiae]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm gonna party like it's 1999.
Really? I figured you for a 1979 kinda guy...

Me, I'm gettin a mullet.

[Don]

Don't worry Plot, trade will flourish regardless what happens to the dollar or any other currency. The same principles that apply to successful trade now, will apply in the future.
Read up on what happened to the Weimar Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic), or just Hyperinflation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation) in general. Then check out what's happened to the US monetary base and total borrowings from the Federal Reserve (http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h3/Current/h3.htm) over the last year. It's not a pretty picture.

[sulong]

Read up on what happened to the Weimar Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic), or just Hyperinflation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation) in general. Then check out what's happened to the US monetary base and total borrowings from the Federal Reserve (http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h3/Current/h3.htm) over the last year. It's not a pretty picture.

The key word in my post was “successful”. Now, as it was in the past, and as it will be in the future, the word is relative.


Even unruly mobs need to get their pitchforks and torches from somewhere. And many in the mob will shop for the best deal.

[BenPanced]

Yeah, but the Times will link anything to the coming of the End Times.

[James81]

*bangs head on desk*

[maxmordon]

When we should drink the Kool-Aid?

[roncouch]

Plot, the economic situation is unlike anything we've experienced firsthand. My parents talked of the hard times of the Great Depression, but, even then, they were not as pessimistic as many are today. We can find parallels between the fall of the Roman Empire, and the US, and discuss other economic catastrophic world events. Fear of the unknown, and panic likely to result should matters get much worse are major concerns, but I'd like to believe we will survive this mess and be a stronger people and nation.

Ron

[Rolling Thunder]

Also, where some see doom others spot opportunity glinting on its fringes.

[robeiae]

Well, fortunes are usually made when other fortunes are lost.

I'm thinking the toilet paper business...

[Plot Device]

Plot, the economic situation is unlike anything we've experienced firsthand. My parents talked of the hard times of the Great Depression, but, even then, they were not as pessimistic as many are today. We can find parallels between the fall of the Roman Empire, and the US, and discuss other economic catastrophic world events. Fear of the unknown, and panic likely to result should matters get much worse are major concerns, but I'd like to believe we will survive this mess and be a stronger people and nation.

Ron


Back in the 1930's, we had several things in this nation the we no longer possess today.

First, over 25% of all Americans in that era lived or worked on a family farm. That means almost all Americans had a "country cousin" whose house they could flee to, and where they could sleep in the barn if need be. But today less than 3% of Americans live or work on any kind of a farm, and most farms of today are the monster corporate factory farms--no "family" there at all.

Second, we (once, back then) had the greatest railroad in the world, meticulously maintained and in top flgith condition. That railroad is a mere shell of its former self now. (And the rest of the world scratches their heads over why we would be so foolish as to dismantle it.) Using rails to ship freight is far cheaper than road or air travel, and it uses loads less energy. And using rails to transport people is not only cheaper and less energy intensive than cars or air travel, but it's also usually equal in time-efficiency for almost all instances of inter-city transit of less than 500 miles.

Third, we had an awesome canal and levee system. It's been halved since then.

Fourth, our domestic reserves of raw nautral resources, still sitting utterly untouched within the ground, were more than double back then than what they are today: coal, oil, iron ore, gold ore, copper ore--even uranium. We have very little left now of any of those (and other) important resouces within our soveriegn borders. And what scant amounts still remain under the ground here on American soil are only the sub-standard dregs that the miners and oilmen of yesteryear snubbed their noses at.

Fifth, we did NOT have a staggering debt of ... trillions of dollars, owed mostly to (of all nations!) Communist China. Our treasury was full of actual cash and gold back then, not a stack of IOU's.

Sixth, we had an economy heavilly centered upon the actual manufacturing of ... stuff! REAL stuff! Like clothes and toys and appliances and funiture and kitchenware, etc. Today our maufacturing base is almost nothing but cars, military contracts, soaps, and pharmaceuticals. But all the OTHER stuff gets manufactured almost everywhere else now.

What I'm saying is, we've got little left to play with, no additional cards up our sleeves. And our ability to be flexible as far as manufacturing and trade and transit --and especially the retooling of all of those toward any sort of a new economic target we might dream about-- simply isn't there anymore. And that's because you can't retool what either doesn't exist or is just hanging on by a thread.



.

[TerzaRima]

Plot, I always have this urge to give you a hot cup of tea laced with whiskey and a stiff dose of antacids. Go look at dailypuppy.com or something.

[Plot Device]

Plot, I always have this urge to give you a hot cup of tea laced with whiskey and a stiff dose of antacids. Go look at dailypuppy.com or something.

Whiskey?

Puppy pictures?

Those two would merely be variations on resorting to this option (http://msfriendly.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/ostrich_head_in_ground_full.jpg).

[William Haskins]

Whiskey?

Puppy pictures?

Those two would merely be variations on resorting to this option (http://msfriendly.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/ostrich_head_in_ground_full.jpg).

I have not opened that link and truthfully I don't want to becasue I'm too lazy today.

Please TELL ME what is in that link. Like maybe include a hefty qute, and then explain your own position on it all.


(And no, I'm not going to research anything either. Not unless you can convince me to.)



::ETA::

Please notice just how many hours your thread sat idle before I responded to it. While I could be wrong, I suspect I'm not the only one who can't be bothered to click the link.

[Bravo]

PD, what do you believe about the end times?

is it near?

you seem to post an awful lot about it.

[poetinahat]

Um, this is a Jeremy Clarkson article - a car review. Jeremy is an automotive reviewer and the host of Top Gear.

I haven't read him, but I gather that his format is to start with a digression, then segue into the car review.

He's an entertaining guy, but he says himself that he's not an economic oracle. He's a writer chronicling some observations.

Next. . . .

[KTC]

Um, this is a Jeremy Clarkson article - a car review. Jeremy is an automotive reviewer and the host of Top Gear.

I haven't read him, but I gather that his format is to start with a digression, then segue into the car review.

He's an entertaining guy, but he says himself that he's not an economic oracle. He's a writer chronicling some observations.

Next. . . .

No, no. It's the end of the world. I'm taking my pots and pans out to the front lawn where I will begin to bang them together.

[maestrowork]

Lovely.

I hope the doomsayers are right. It's time the humans are wiped out from the face of the Earth. I hope they'll be happy to be RIGHT, finally.

If not now, at least we have 2012 to look forward to.

[TerzaRima]

Haskins and anyone else who is playing at home, it's an ostrich. With its head in the sand.

Plot, I'm curious, not snarking--if you endorse this outlook, and I get the sense you do, what are you doing to prepare for it?

[Feiss]

No, no. It's the end of the world. I'm taking my pots and pans out to the front lawn where I will begin to bang them together.

Front lawn? Shouldn't you be in your leaden bunker? What of the beans, man? The beans?

[Joe270]

So Peak Oil wasn't the death of all life on the planet, now there's something new?

There's a huge surprise.

[WackAMole]

You guys are brutal sheesh lol

[dmytryp]

Read up on what happened to the Weimar Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_in_the_Weimar_Republic), or just Hyperinflation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation) in general. Then check out what's happened to the US monetary base and total borrowings from the Federal Reserve (http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h3/Current/h3.htm) over the last year. It's not a pretty picture.
On the other hand, we had hyperinflation for several years. Managed to survive it. Dropped several zeroes from the sheqel to create the new sheqel at the end. Countries can survive hyperinflation if prudent economic policies are put in place

[JJ Cooper]

From the same article in the OP:

On a more cheery note, Vauxhall has stopped making the Vectra, that dreary, designed-in-a-coffee-break Eurobox that no one wanted. In its place stands the new Insignia, which has been voted European car of the year for 2009.

This is what the author of the article does - he is into cars, not economics. Watch an episode of Top Gear and you may figure out his humour. The article is bollocks.

JJ

[poetinahat]

But, but, but... It's a Vauxhall!!!!!!!!

[endless rewrite]

Please tell me that nobody linked to Jeremy Clarkson in relation to an economics post - please....the man doesn't take himself seriously, her certainly doesn't expect anybody else to. He has his tongue firmly in his cheek.

[JJ Cooper]

I think the give-away was in the article title. Instead of 'The World is Doomed - End of Days', Mr Clarkson chose 'Vauxhall Insignia 2.8 V6 - An adequate way to drive to hell'.

And to quote 'senior bankers' (OP article) as sources in these times is a bit hard to believe.

JJ

[brokenfingers]

Dammit, does this mean the world ISN"T coming to an end now? I wish people would make up their minds.

[poetinahat]

In unrelated news, trading on the New York Stock Exchange came to an abrupt halt when floor trader Sherman-Amos Funtasae strolled into work whistling REM's classic hit, "It's The End of the World And We Know It (And I Feel Fine)".

Singer Michael Stipe was quoted as saying, "Really? Huh. Pass the ketchup?"

[KTC]

In unrelated news, trading on the New York Stock Exchange came to an abrupt halt when floor trader Sherman-Amos Funtasae strolled into work whistling REM's classic hit, "It's The End of the World And We Know It (And I Feel Fine)".

I thought he was singing, "Momma...just killed a man. Put a gun against his head, pulled the trigger now he's dead" a cappella?


Freddy Mercury was not quoted.

[JJ Cooper]

In breaking news - Charlie Sheen, a well-respected former Wall Street stockbroker, says - 'all's good'.

JJ

[poetinahat]

Creationists across the nation have called for a complete banning of the "blasphemous" Sixties hit, "Hey, Hey, We're the Monkees".

In a completely fake made-up interview, former simian pseudomusicalist Peter Tork said, "Huh huh... you said 'Tork'."

[robeiae]

In completely related news, several members of the popular internet writer's site, AbsoluteWrite.com, were found bludgeoned to death in their living rooms, the apparent murder weapon being Don Rickles.

Don, when asked for a comment, said only "Hockeypuck."

[KTC]

In completely related news, several members of the popular internet writer's site, AbsoluteWrite.com, were found bludgeoned to death in their living rooms, the apparent murder weapon being Don Rickles.

Don, when asked for a comment, said only "Hockeypuck."

You wouldn't hit me with Don Rickles.

[dpaterso]

I find the entire tone of this thread unacceptable.

Especially as I drive a Vauxhall Vectra.

-Derek

[poetinahat]

Especially as I drive a Vauxhall Vectra.
If you call that "driving".

[robeiae]

I drive a Buick.

[Rolling Thunder]

I just want to note that Haskins used capital letters...

[Albedo]

I drive a Buick.

I thought Vauxhall was British for Buick.

[William Haskins]

I just want to note that Haskins used capital letters...

in my defense, it was a copy/paste ripoff of PD's self-righteous post (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3030944&postcount=2)aimed at bb over an unexplained link.

[robeiae]

In Rolling Thunder's defense, he's a little dim...

[Rolling Thunder]

I thought it was one of the signs of the Apocalypse.

[Foinah]

Creationists across the nation have called for a complete banning of the "blasphemous" Sixties hit, "Hey, Hey, We're the Monkees".

In a completely fake made-up interview, former simian pseudomusicalist Peter Tork said, "Huh huh... you said 'Tork'."

hey....as long as it's not sparkly, santa hat clad, smoking monkeys....

[rhymegirl]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm gonna party like it's 1999.

Me, too.

I just want to note that Haskins used capital letters...

Where??? If that's true, the world IS coming to an end.

[Pat~]

Um, this is a Jeremy Clarkson article - a car review. Jeremy is an automotive reviewer and the host of Top Gear.

I haven't read him, but I gather that his format is to start with a digression, then segue into the car review.


(Which will likely include its contribution to the Peak Oil crisis.)

PD, I think the problem with getting worried about end times, is that it's akin to getting worried about your eventual death. Yeah, it's going to happen, and no, you can't prevent it by worrying. So you simply use your knowledge about the future to live rightly in the present.

[Plot Device]

PD, what do you believe about the end times?

is it near?

you seem to post an awful lot about it.

When conversing with people, I tend to separate out my religious beliefs when the context is a non-religious one. So in this (non-religious) forum, I will simply say, the math all points toward our whole planet being royally screwed in 10 years or less.



On a related note: am I being "top down" or am I being "bottom up" about it?

Or ...

Am I (top-down) starting with an overt bais toward the tennets of my faith, and then scanning the realms of math and science for stuff which allows me to play the game of matchy-matchy between my faith and real life current events? Or am I (bottom-up) starting with the math and the science, drawing an exclusively math and science-based conclusion, and then only incidentally realizing after the fact that MAYBE a few of those dusty old Sunday school lessons from years ago are maybe kinda sorta slightly lining up with the math and the science playing out in global politics of today?

I can pretty much assure you I'm being very bottom-up about it. And in the mean time, my Christian family is rather annnoyed with me that I am NOT talking about God and Jesus and the anti-Christ, and annoyed with me that I am NOT talking about how the Lord will surely come back before it all hits the fan, and annoyed with me that I am instead focusing on oil and the world economy and how there's no solution anywhere in sight. And my recent rejection of the Republicans during the past year is also not playing too well with them. (I have a lack of faith in their eyes.)

[Plot Device]

Haskins and anyone else who is playing at home, it's an ostrich. With its head in the sand.

Plot, I'm curious, not snarking--if you endorse this outlook, and I get the sense you do, what are you doing to prepare for it?


Preparing for THIS takes a serious amount of personal capital-- serious money. And I have none. So there's nothing I can do but walk around with a sandwichboard over my shoulders chanting "The end is nigh."

[Plot Device]

You guys are brutal sheesh lol


No worries, I've gotten 3 very supportive rep points for this thread and a heartfelt PM --from 4 different people. (Yes yes, "the lurkers").

(And not one negative rep point nor any negative PM's.)

[Plot Device]

Please tell me that nobody linked to Jeremy Clarkson in relation to an economics post - please....the man doesn't take himself seriously, her certainly doesn't expect anybody else to. He has his tongue firmly in his cheek.


He does. But he's also making the point that buying a luxury car in THIS economic environment is just ludicrous.

[William Haskins]

it would seem to me that you're bringing all the naivate and baggage of the religious end-times paradigm and simply slapping on a non-religious "world events" context.

the hysteria and paranoia are still the hallmarks.

[Plot Device]

(Which will likely include its contribution to the Peak Oil crisis.)

PD, I think the problem with getting worried about end times, is that it's akin to getting worried about your eventual death. Yeah, it's going to happen, and no, you can't prevent it by worrying. So you simply use your knowledge about the future to live rightly in the present.

I'm not worried about the "End Times." I'm mad as hell that our governmental and scientific leaders have been asleep at the wheel for over 30 years. This preresents a spectacular failure of leadership on every level of our society.





To "paraphrase" a political cartoon I recently saw. I want you to please imagine ALL SIX of our past five US presidents (plus Obama) side-by side, each looking directly at us (the way they each might look directly at the TV camera during a presidential address to the nation):


"It's time" ... "we take" ... "our dependence" ... "on foriegn oil" ... "seriously" ... "once and for all."



(Carter) ........ (Reagan) .......... (Bush) ............. (Clinton) .......... (Bush) ........... (Obama)






.

[Monkey]

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/readback/archive/2008/11/20/when-you-bring-up-the-antichrist.aspx

[...] I felt that all the stories about the "new evangelicals" during this election season had obscured a very important reality in the Christian landscape: a third of white evangelicals believe that the world will end in their lifetimes, according to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public life. In other words, Americans with an apocalyptic worldview, who believe that the Bible contains prophesy predicting the end of time, are far from extinct.

Apocalypticism, the idea that God will bring about the end of history soon (in a series of events whose exact order has been debated for centuries) and reward the righteous with heaven, has been around since before the birth of Jesus.


(bolding mine)

The author of my quote is a writer for Newsweek who wrote a piece on people who believe Obama is the anti-christ. In their minds, they equated Obama with the anti-christ and as proof of the end-of-days.

I don't mean to suggest that PD has any such delusions. I just found the quoted bit relevant... the idea that the end times are upon us isn't as "fringe" as some of us would like to believe. There's a heckova lot of people who believe that.

[Plot Device]

Now HERE is a really cool political cartoon.

http://a202.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/14/l_9c4e5a5ac9eb32b95b3d55dd252c11b9.jpg

[Plot Device]

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/readback/archive/2008/11/20/when-you-bring-up-the-antichrist.aspx



(bolding mine)

The author of my quote is a writer for Newsweek who wrote a piece on people who believe Obama is the anti-christ. In their minds, they equated Obama with the anti-christ and as proof of the end-of-days.

I don't mean to suggest that PD has any such delusions. I just found the quoted bit relevant... the idea that the end times are upon us isn't as "fringe" as some of us would like to believe. There's a heckova lot of people who believe that.


For the record, I totally dig Obama.

[poetinahat]

It's ... a... CAR REVIEW.

[Tirjasdyn]

Let's face it, we aren't getting those things back.

Do I need to worry about?

Nope.

Are bad things going to happen to me?

Yep.

Can I really do anything about it?

Nope.

I just do the best I can and sleep well at night. And puppies are always a good thing.

http://www.michellejnorton.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/100_0001.JPG

See...puppies. We all love puppies.

Okay I'll be serious for one sec. We save money, we plan and frankly there is not reason to act like the world has gone down the tubes till it actually has. Stress kills.

[Godfather]

tell you what though,

back home in ireland, things are royally screwed. the most incompetent government you could comprehend. has completely mismanaged the country for too long and are in place at the very worst conceivable time.

i don't blame the poor bastards for getting hell of drunk. there's no escape from this shitstorm.


(and it was jeremy clarkson who wrote the article...)

[KTC]

It's ... a... CAR REVIEW.
I don't understand what this has to do with a car's rear view?

[poetinahat]

I don't understand what this has to do with a car's rear view?
The Department of Motor Vehicles has issued a statement condemning model/singer Grace Jones.

In the statement, DMV head Gasket Cleaner accuses Jones of encouraging aggressive driving in her Eighties hit song "Pull Up to the Bumper".

[KTC]

The Department of Motor Vehicles has issued a statement condemning model/singer Grace Jones.

In the statement, DMV head Gasket Cleaner accuses Jones of encouraging aggressive driving in her Eighties hit song "Pull Up to the Bumper".

Aggressive driving? In a long black limousine? Please. Grace was heard to say, "Please! Get off my curb!"

[Bravo]

When conversing with people, I tend to separate out my religious beliefs when the context is a non-religious one. So in this (non-religious) forum, I will simply say, the math all points toward our whole planet being royally screwed in 10 years or less.



didnt jesus say no one will know when the end times are?

[Pat~]

didnt jesus say no one will know when the end times are?

Yes, he did. He spoke of endtimes for the purpose of instructing His disciples how to be good stewards of their time and talents--how to live in daily readiness and service to Him. (Not for stockpiling, pouring money into the economy, or spreading mass hysteria.) Here's what He said:

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

...

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

(Matthew 24)


*shameless plug* (We've been discussing this in the Christian Forum (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123757) this week...)

[Plot Device]

We save money, we plan and frankly there is not reason to act like the world has gone down the tubes till it actually has.

I don't believe I (or anyone else for that matter) have been acting like the world has gone down the tubes (past tense).

And as far as when the day comes when it actually does so ... any suggestion in the here and now as far as how to prepare for it???

[Plot Device]

didnt jesus say no one will know when the end times are?


Maybe if I were right now in the Christian sub-forum instead of the P&CE sub-forum, I'd address this question, Bravo.

[William Haskins]

in my opinion, endtimes prophecies—and they pre-date christ, were contemporary to christ and have been declared every century since—share a great deal with the secular endtimes crowd (global warming doomsayers, overpopulation doomsayers, food shortage doomsayers*).

at the top are people with political aims (often cynical and not dining on the bullshit themselves), and they capitalize on the very human tendency towards paranoia, conspiracy and impending doom.

*this is not to suggest that everyone who is concerned with global warming, energy, overpopulation and food shortages are charlatans with ulterior motives. obviously the problems are real and have the potential to be damaging to the environment or to human standard of living. but there is, without a doubt, a subset of advocates who are more than willing to engage in hyperbole, sloppy science or public manipulation to achieve their goals.

[William Haskins]

Maybe if I were right now in the Christian sub-forum instead of the P&CE sub-forum, I'd address this question, Bravo.

pat did it just fine, thanks.

[Plot Device]

Here's the part of that quote that kinda catches my attention the most, Pat:



So you also must be ready

[Bravo]

Maybe if I were right now in the Christian sub-forum instead of the P&CE sub-forum, I'd address this question, Bravo.

you have expressed your religious beliefs within P&CE and are talking about something that exists very prominently within certain christian circles, why are you unwilling to explain this?

i am in all honesty, genuinely curious how someone who someone who is christian can claim that the world is probably going to end within the next 10 years.

that claim seems directly contradictory to jesus' teaching.

[WackAMole]

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/readback/archive/2008/11/20/when-you-bring-up-the-antichrist.aspx



(bolding mine)

The author of my quote is a writer for Newsweek who wrote a piece on people who believe Obama is the anti-christ. In their minds, they equated Obama with the anti-christ and as proof of the end-of-days.

I don't mean to suggest that PD has any such delusions. I just found the quoted bit relevant... the idea that the end times are upon us isn't as "fringe" as some of us would like to believe. There's a heckova lot of people who believe that.

My mother is one of those "fringe" people that believes this. She is convinced that the election of Obama is somehow the be all to end all. I just dont get it. And you are right, there are a lot of them. *shrug*

[maestrowork]

Speaking of Obama, just heard this today at a cafe. Three older gentlemen. All talking about how a McCain win would have saved the world and scared Iraq and Iran into submission, and how Obama was the most corrupt person elected as President because of the IL governor arrest.

OK....

[poetinahat]

Maybe if I were right now in the Christian sub-forum instead of the P&CE sub-forum, I'd address this question, Bravo.
Um, yeah, because it's illegal or unsafe to talk about Jesus anywhere else.

[Plot Device]

tell you what though,

back home in ireland, things are royally screwed. the most incompetent government you could comprehend. has completely mismanaged the country for too long and are in place at the very worst conceivable time.

i don't blame the poor bastards for getting hell of drunk. there's no escape from this shitstorm.

You're from Ireland? Well then, check out the following:

Gavin Harte at ESD Training (http://www.esdtraining.net/) in Dublin.

Brian Kaller (http://restoringmayberry.blogspot.com/) (he's an American with permanent residence in Ireland) who runs FADA in Kildare.

Transition Towns (http://www.transitiontowns.org/) started in Kinsale, Ireland (http://www.transitiontowns.org/Kinsale/|) and is now headquartered in Totnes, UK.

Low Carbon Communities (http://www.lowcarboncommunity.org/) is a UK initiative similar to Transition Towns.





(and it was jeremy clarkson who wrote the article...)

Yeah it was. (Silly boy that he is.)

[WackAMole]

Speaking of Obama, just heard this today at a cafe. Three older gentlemen. All talking about how a McCain win would have saved the world and scared Iraq and Iran into submission, and how Obama was the most corrupt person elected as President because of the IL governor arrest.

OK....


Again...you describe a lot of my mother's demographic including my mother. She called me last night to tell me all about it and slipped in there somewhere that it was Obama's fault somehow :/ I just don't even respond to her silliness anymore. It's funny how when I was a child I thought the world of my mom, sadly, I've actually been finding myself thinking how "dumb" it is of her to buy into all this garbage. Makes me kind of sad.

[Plot Device]

you have expressed your religious beliefs within P&CE

Yes. I did so with restraint and only in context.

and are talking about something that exists very prominently within certain christian circles, why are you unwilling to explain this?

Because it's out of the context of this thread.

You want me to jack my own thread???? (Clever.)

i am in all honesty, genuinely curious how someone who someone who is christian can claim that the world is probably going to end within the next 10 years.

that claim seems directly contradictory to jesus' teaching.


The world isn't going to "end" in 10 years. We're "merely" looking at a serious upheaval in Western civilization.

I'm not talking fire and brimstone here. I'm talking about a headlong slide into the Dark Ages II (right after the Great Depression II).

[Plot Device]

Um, yeah, because it's illegal or unsafe to talk about Jesus anywhere else.


See my reply to Bravo just now in Post #84.

[Monkey]

Again...you describe a lot of my mother's demographic including my mother. She called me last night to tell me all about it and slipped in there somewhere that it was Obama's fault somehow :/ I just don't even respond to her silliness anymore. It's funny how when I was a child I thought the world of my mom, sadly, I've actually been finding myself thinking how "dumb" it is of her to buy into all this garbage. Makes me kind of sad.


It sounds like fear to me. People can be dumb about things that scare them, and it sounds like, for whatever reasons, Obama scares your mom.

It's no reason to think any less of her.

[poetinahat]

See my reply to Bravo just now in Post #84.
See *my* replies earlier.

IT'S A CAR REVIEW.

[Plot Device]

See *my* replies earlier.

IT'S A CAR REVIEW.


I know. (Please stop shouting.)

[KTC]

This whole thread is pointless (because of the car review reality).

[Monkey]

This thread has made me giggle, and is therefore not completely pointless.

[poetinahat]

I know. (Please stop shouting.)
(Please start listening.)

[Plot Device]

My overall feeling is that he was not joking when he said he got doom and gloom from banking executives in the UK and Ireland. (And so I launched the thread.)

He reviews cars for a living. And yet he knows the irony behind the question: Who in their right mind would buy a limited edition, top-of-the-line sports car in this environment? That was his point. And so I think his point is very much worth repeating (via this thread), especially if his quotes from those bankers are true and accurate.

[KTC]

A bad economy is not 'end of days'. The guy was tongue in cheek. 'end of days' is a serious belief...not the result of economic downturn, no matter how devastating that is. It was TONGUE IN CHEEK.

[Bravo]

well good luck weathering it, PD.

[poetinahat]

He's in the entertainment business. He's entertaining - with hyperbole.

To start building a fallout shelter based on this article is akin to reporting Glenn Close to the SPCA for having boiled a bunny in whatever that film was.

[Don]

I'm not generally a fan of Fred Thompson, particularly after his lackluster performance in the primaries, but this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IrR3o7x1ps) is a great summary of what's going on with the economy.

A few quotes:

If you work in tall buildings and make millions of dollars a year, it's called leverage. Anywhere else it's called living beyond your means.

On borrowed money, we can bail out all the failures, and the rest of us can buy more stuff to save the economy.

Not just everybody qualifies for the bailout. You must have screwed up on a monumental scale. No little screwups will be rewarded.

Recently assumed government obligations of $8 trillion represent just about half the annual value of the economy.

The government has come up with an $800 billion plan to make it easier for you to run up your credit card debt.

The Washington experts have shown us that the way to get out of this mess is to double down on the the same thing that got us into this mess.

It's the equivalent of telling a man who's too fat to eat more donuts.

If you think this sounds absurd, let me reassure you, this is all being presided over by the same politicians, government officials, business executives and economists who have guided us to where we are today.

We can print all the money we need... we own the printing presses!

[Plot Device]

I guess the real question is: was he making it up (poetic/comedic license) when he said he spoke to various banking executives who expressed once-in-a-lifetime fears about the global economy? If ALL of that was utter fabrication, then the whole thread is pointless.

[Plot Device]

Okay, I have now hit my fifth rep point for this thread. And this fifth point absolutely insists (in utter politeness) that Clarkson made up the whole thing, and there's not one shred of truth to his claims of having gotten such quotes from actual banking execs.

[maestrowork]

Every economic downturn sees doomsday scenarios, just as every New Year's Day sees apocalypse predictions.

[William Haskins]

Okay, I have now hit my fifth rep point for this thread. And this fifth point absolutely insists (in utter politeness) that Clarkson made up the whole thing, and there's not one shred of truth to his claims of having gotten such quotes from actual banking execs.

then allow me to be the first to say "lol".

[Plot Device]

I'm not generally a fan of Fred Thompson, particularly after his lackluster performance in the primaries, but this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IrR3o7x1ps) is a great summary of what's going on with the economy.

A few quotes:


My fav quote was his killer punchine at the end:

"Ask not what your country can spend for you, ask what you can spend for your country."

[Bravo]

and really, it doesnt even matter if he was joking or not: as jesus himself said, no one knows when the day of judgement will come.

i think if you're a christian, there really shouldnt be much speculation and concern over this.

[Plot Device]

Every economic downturn sees doomsday scenarios, just as every New Year's Day sees apocalypse predictions.


Well ... this downturn is just a little bit different. That video by Fred Thompson that Don posted for us was very enlightening.

[Magdalen]

12/12/12

Until then, buy American!!!

[Plot Device]

and really, it doesnt even matter if he was joking or not: as jesus himself said, no one knows when the day of judgement will come.

i think if you're a christian, there really shouldnt be much speculation and concern over this.


Over mismanagement of our entire economy? As a citizen of the United States, I think it's my civic duty to be concerned over THAT.

Or are you suggesting that I should be the sort of a Christian who avoids any and all participiation in governmental systems.

[Plot Device]

12/12/12

Until then, buy American!!!


You mean: 12/21/12. ;)

[Bravo]

Over mismanagement of our entire economy? As a citizen of the United States, I think it's my civic duty to be concerned over THAT.

Or are you suggesting that I should be the sort of a Christian who avoids any and all participiation in governmental systems.


maybe the doctors are right, and i really am nuts, but to me, it's one thing to say that we're on the brink of economic collapse, and it's quite another to say that we're in the end times.

but who knows.

no one ever thinks that they're the ones who are crazy.

[Plot Device]

maybe the doctors are right, and i really am nuts, but to me, it's one thing to say that we're on the brink of economic collapse, and it's quite another to say that we're in the end times.

but who knows.

no one ever thinks that they're the ones who are crazy.


But I'm not the one using the phrase "End of Days," it's the Clarkson guy who says that the bankers are using it.

Would it make you more comfortable if I used the word "Apocalyptic?" And IIRC, that word was used when the $700 billion bailout was first proposed. I also recall "Economic Armageddon" was tossed around by a few other notable poeple. I can't help it if people with more degrees than I have are using this language right now. I'm just quoting it.

[Magdalen]

You mean: 12/21/12. ;)


Yes. But I'll be worried the fortnight preceeding.

[Plot Device]

Yes. But I'll be worried the fortnight preceeding.


Okay. I can agree with that. :cool:

[MattW]

...and I feel fine.

[Rolling Thunder]

Even though the economy is going through a rough spell there are still some inaccuracies reported on what is actually going on. For instance the 'housing market meltdown' is being felt across the country. Some places are having a worse time than others and some places aren't doing half bad. It's rare for the Harrisburg, Pa., area to feel the pinch when it come to real estate but it is doing worse than some thought it would.

But it's far from dead. Remodeling work felt a slight twinge but not as much as many of us here thought it would. Apparently people have saved money for improvements or they're getting loans from the small local banks. I imagine most regions have their bright spots as well, even outside the construction market. Small business makes up the bulk of commerce and I'm wondering if the media is even looking at these situations at times.

[Plot Device]

Well, RT, my position is that "endless growth" is a lie. And therefore our entire economy is built on said lie. The lie has been perpetuated for about 60 years now via various shell games and boondoggles. But all great lies eventually get exposed. And so the time for THIS lie's exposition has come at last. There are no more cards left in the deck to play. The game is done.


Here's what one famous economist once said:


"Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."

-- Kenneth E. Boulding

[KTC]

I can't find the passage in the bible that discusses (attempted) humorous car reviews being the trumpeter to portent the end of days. I looked.

[Rolling Thunder]

Well, RT, my position is that "endless growth" is a lie. And therefore our entire economy is built on said lie. The lie has been perpetuated for about 60 years now via various shell games and boondoggles. And now, there are no more cards left in the deck to play.


Here's what one famous economist once said:

NAFTA didn't do much for small business either and endless growth isn't something I've had to deal with. My experience is simple supply and demand. I think if the global economy collapsed there wouldn't really be all that much panic either. Most people would probably return to a barter system at the worst, maybe even go to a local currency. I saw a news report where there is a small community using their own form of currency in their county for local commerce.

In any event I think the global economic crisis will work itself out in due time. It just means consumerism will undergo a transformation. Society has to consume to survive so the basics will always remain, but materialism for the sake of growth is taking a big hit right now. Younger people are going to make changes in their habits because they will have to, not because they want to, so I suspect we'll see that over the coming decade.

Of course, tomorrow a new gizmo could appear and throw that line of thought right under the bus. ;)

[KTC]

James 5:1-3

"Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth eaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days."


Translation: You will find the answers you seek online...hidden within quirky car reviews.

[Rolling Thunder]

Varoom!
http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/Lumber-Car-A.jpg

Over heaped with treasure!

[KTC]

Varoom!
http://www.swapmeetdave.com/Humor/Workshop/Lumber-Car-A.jpg

Over heaped with treasure!

If I didn't know any better, I would say that end-days were near for that little car.

[beezle]

They probably said the same during the Great Crash of 1929. But then what happened? Two whole decades of sunshine and lollypops.

[KTC]

They probably said the same during the Great Crash of 1929. But then what happened? Two whole decades of sunshine and lollypops.

And isn't it interesting that The Wizard of Oz was right smack in the middle of those two decades. There is a message in there somewhere. I'm writing the Lollipop Guild.

[Plot Device]

NAFTA didn't do much for small business either and endless growth isn't something I've had to deal with. My experience is simple supply and demand.

Well ... I have this bone in my head that insists that the global oil supply is intimately linked with the global economy. Oil to this civilization is like blood to a human being. So when the global supply of oil gets interrupted (even if just a tiny bit, and even if just for a while), the economy goes into shock and starts bleeding out.

I think if the global economy collapsed there wouldn't really be all that much panic either.

When the Former Soviet Union collapsed, there wasn't actual panic as much as there was a lot of eye rolling and a lot of "Wow, I guess we knew it would happen eventually." People DID suffer though. Here's part of a PM reply that sent to someone earlier today:

A non-fiction book published this year by Dmitry Orlov called Reinventing Collapse: The Soviet Example and American Prospects chronicles the financial collapse for the Former Soviet Union (FSU), and then proposes that a similar collapse might soon happen here in the USA. The focus of that book centers upon the sputtering of the Soviet economy due to 1) the extreme national debt it incurred via the arms race with America, and 2) the wearying war it foolishly undertook in Afghanistan. And then the crowning jewel for the Sovier demise was 3) the growing scarcity of oil in the FSU. And as the slow motion train wreck of that nation's collapse unfolded in a series of tragic and spectacular spurts and blurts from 1991 through to 1994, millions and millions of people died all over the Soviet Union due to lack of medical care, lack of heat, even lack of food. However, there were two things the FSU had that we Americans do NOT have: 1) a very efficient nationwide train system, because the Soviets were quite diligent in building and maintaing their trains, and 2) millons and millions of "kitchen gardens" owned and tended by private citizens all over, and that's because the Soviet citizens had grown annoyingly accustomed to the Soviet wheat crops failing year after year, so they were already in a decades-long habbit of growing a significant amount of their own food at home in private back yard gardens. But we Americans are not so fortunate as to have either of those two situations in this nation. When our own collapse comes, we --unlike those Soviets-- will be stranded with no transportation and no food. (Of the things I have read about the Soviet collapse, one stands out the most: private citizens began owning guard dogs in greater numbers than ever before in the face of escalated home entry by desperate people seeking food.)

One last thing about the Soviet collapse: that financial catastrophe was limited almost excluisvely to the Soviet Union (and their "satellite nations") because the Soviets were such an island unto themselves. However, America's economy is wired directly into the mainframe of the rest of the world. So if WE go down, so does every other nation on this planet.



So I feel we're in for some pain.



Most people would probably return to a barter system at the worst, maybe even go to a local currency. I saw a news report where there is a small community using their own form of currency in their county for local commerce.

I read that local currencies are being heavilly promoted by the Localism movement. And the localism movement is heavilly favored by my Peak Oil freinds. So I have no qualms with that.

In any event I think the global economic crisis will work itself out in due time. It just means consumerism will undergo a transformation.

To contnue with my comparison to Russia, that nation did not disappear. They merely restrctured. But with MUCH pain, turmoil, and even death. It took them over a decade to get back on their feet, and they emerged a differnet nation.

Society has to consume to survive so the basics will always remain, but materialism for the sake of growth is taking a big hit right now. Younger people are going to make changes in their habits because they will have to, not because they want to, so I suspect we'll see that over the coming decade.

Now THAT is what I am talking about! :)

Of course, tomorrow a new gizmo could appear and throw that line of thought right under the bus. ;)

Not likely if that gizmo is in any way dependent upon oil.

[Tirjasdyn]

But I'm not the one using the phrase "End of Days," it's the Clarkson guy who says that the bankers are using it.



I'm going to point this out...of course they're using it...they're screwed.

And we are in no position to hold them up.

End of days...for them yep, us no. OH WELL.

Even if the government collapses tomorrow or 10 years from now...I'll probably still have to work in the morning...but I won't have to dump a chunk of income into my student loans anymore.

[ClaudiaGray]

Just to put things in perspective, in 1857, after about a year of recession, there was a wave of bank failures, 5,000 failed businesses, railroad failures, high unemployment (accompanied by protest rallies and even riots in big cities) and a closure of most banks in New York City (all offices, all branches) for months -- and today, people are still using money.

Of course, the economic downturn of 1857 didn't really resolve until the Civil War, but as the economic downturn didn't actually cause that war, I'm not breaking out my musket just yet.

We are probably in for some rough times. We will no doubt have an extended recession and a depression is not out of the question. Worst-case scenario, we might have revaluation of major world currencies, and that would be ROUGH. (A friend of mine who was living in Thailand with the baht collapsed told me about how crazy it became to buy or sell anything for a while.) But even in these sitautions -- people used money, most people were gainfully employed, etc. For me, at least, "End of Days" or "apocalyptic" suggests something a lot more wretched than what we're looking at here, though I agree what we're looking at is not good.

[WendyNYC]

But I'm not the one using the phrase "End of Days," it's the Clarkson guy who says that the bankers are using it.



Did he really mean they are using it seriously? Bankers talk like that. "How's work today, honey?" "Oh, you know, the world is ending because Paulson said blahblahblah."

And if it was a trader, he'd add a few curse words on either side of the phrase.

[robeiae]

And if it was a trader, he'd add a few curse words on either side of the phrase.
Wait a minute...traders CURSE??!? OUTLOUD?!?!

Shocking...

[icerose]

I think what Plot is trying to get across is that it isn't going to be the end of the world, it's going to be the end of the world as we know it. That there are some painful and major restructures in the near future for us and the entire world for that matter, which is a pretty good possibility in my opinion.

And I personally feel the purpose of those scriptures that talk about the end of days and being prepared is having your financial house in order, your physical house in order, and your spiritual house in order at all times because that's how you should live and no one knows the time when the actual second coming will be, and you shouldn't live your lives watching the sky, but rather living like today is your last day and doing the best you can and leaving the rest up to God.

[Plot Device]

Did he really mean they are using it seriously? Bankers talk like that. "How's work today, honey?" "Oh, you know, the world is ending because Paulson said blahblahblah."

And if it was a trader, he'd add a few curse words on either side of the phrase.

Wait a minute...traders CURSE??!? OUTLOUD?!?!

Shocking...


Do trader's curse??

Well, *BLEEP* yes! Of COURSE they *BLEEP*-ing do!



.

[Plot Device]

Just to put things in perspective, in 1857, after about a year of recession, there was a wave of bank failures, 5,000 failed businesses, railroad failures, high unemployment (accompanied by protest rallies and even riots in big cities) and a closure of most banks in New York City (all offices, all branches) for months -- and today, people are still using money.

Of course, the economic downturn of 1857 didn't really resolve until the Civil War, but as the economic downturn didn't actually cause that war, I'm not breaking out my musket just yet.

Well, here's my perspective:

That situation in 1857 concerned JUST the USA, so it was limited only within our nation. But here in the year 2008 it's the global economy that is at risk. I'm talking the whole Jenga tower here.


We are probably in for some rough times. We will no doubt have an extended recession and a depression is not out of the question. Worst-case scenario, we might have revaluation of major world currencies, and that would be ROUGH. (A friend of mine who was living in Thailand with the baht collapsed told me about how crazy it became to buy or sell anything for a while.) But even in these sitautions -- people used money, most people were gainfully employed, etc. For me, at least, "End of Days" or "apocalyptic" suggests something a lot more wretched than what we're looking at here, though I agree what we're looking at is not good.

The amount of "not good" we're looking down the barrel at will most assuredly be ROUGH.

I have said this before and I will say it again: on a scale of 1 to 10, with a "1" being the non-event that Y2K proved to be, and a "10" being full blown Mad Max, I believe the USA is headed for a "7" or even an "8" at some point in the next 10 years. Now if people here would much prefer that all those metaphoric extremisms such as "End of Days" and "apocalyptic" and "economic armageddon" be exclusively reserved ONLY for an actual "10," I can't argue with that. And yet still: I'm not the one using those phrases, its the bankers.



.

[Plot Device]

I'm going to point this out...of course they're using it...they're screwed.

And we are in no position to hold them up.

End of days...for them yep, us no. OH WELL.

Even if the government collapses tomorrow or 10 years from now...I'll probably still have to work in the morning...but I won't have to dump a chunk of income into my student loans anymore.


What do you do for a living? (I hope it's not related to high finance.)

[Plot Device]

I think what Plot is trying to get across is that it isn't going to be the end of the world, it's going to be the end of the world as we know it.

Thank you. (And the rest is cool too.)

That there are some painful and major restructures in the near future for us and the entire world for that matter, which is a pretty good possibility in my opinion.

And I personally feel the purpose of those scriptures that talk about the end of days and being prepared is having your financial house in order, your physical house in order, and your spiritual house in order at all times because that's how you should live and no one knows the time when the actual second coming will be, and you shouldn't live your lives watching the sky, but rather living like today is your last day and doing the best you can and leaving the rest up to God.