Blogger suicide...

[robeiae]

...live, on a webcam.

Story:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/breaking-news/story/781833.html


Crane said some audience members were encouraging, others tried to talk him out of it and a few were debating whether the dose he took was lethal. Someone finally notified the moderator, who traced where the Pembroke Pines teen was located and called police. Biggs was dead by the time they got there.

Encouraging him? Awful.

But what does it mean for the viewers?

[mscelina]

Hmm.

Interesting question. Would encouraging a blogger on webcam to take a lethal dose constitute accessory to a crime? Obstruction of justice? Manslaughter?

It could go a lot of different ways if a court decided that this constituted some sort of crime. But then again, the Myspace suicide case is going to trial and that might establish some legal precedent that would apply to this case too.

[KTC]

Too depressing a story to even comment. Tragic.

[HeronW]

Much like people who go on ledges to jump...those below will encourage the jumper as if the dare means anything, some will urge consideration, some will call for help, others will walk away. The mind set of someone bent on suicide is hard to tell. Serious suicides don't want help to stop. Three family members of mine did so without overt signs. They just wanted the pain to end.

[Clair Dickson]

Wasn't there a movie with this premise?

Sad that this happened. Doesn't surprise me that some would encourage him. There have always been people who find tragedy entertaining. (Remember the trips to the gallows to watch the hangings?) And some people like to push someone they don't think is serious. A "prove it" response.

Still tragic. I wonder what the guy, Biggs, was looking for when he did it on webcam-- notoriety? Someone to stop him? Or is it just the modern version of the ledge jump?

[Inky]

Those that did the encouraging should be held liable.
This was someone's kid.
If it were mine. . .I'd want the morbid monster/monsters to pay.

[kuwisdelu]

Those that did the encouraging should be held liable.
This was someone's kid.
If it were mine. . .I'd want the morbid monster/monsters to pay.

I'd say that question should come down to whether he'd likely have done it anyway. Damned hard to prove, though.

[scarletpeaches]

I bet his blog gets loads of hits, though.

[ClaudiaGray]

I would be willing to wager that at least some of the people encouraging this thought it was a stunt and were responding in kind. However, I would also wager that at least some of them had a reasonable suspicion he was serious -- in which case, the encouragement is incredibly reprehensible. Tragic story all around.

[mscelina]

It may depend upon what they find among the boy's effects. What if it really was nothing but a ploy and he was trusting to his 'viewers' to call the authorities? Or, what if something is found that makes it very obvious that this was his intention and nothing would dissuade him from it?

I think right off the bat that an obstruction of justice/failure to report a crime indictment would probably stick. Anything beyond that would be getting into murky legal territory.

[MarkEsq]

I think right off the bat that an obstruction of justice/failure to report a crime indictment would probably stick. Anything beyond that would be getting into murky legal territory.

Just my opinion, of course, but I doubt either of those would stick, either. Until the boy actually committed the act of suicide, there was no crime to report (assuming suicide is a crime there). And try proving intent. All they have to say is, "I thought he was joking, I had no idea he was for real."
Obstruction of justice seems even more tenuous. I don't see how it would fit at all, really. :)

Any civil liability would appear to be undone by a defense of intervening/superceding cause, that is, the boy killing himself.

[mscelina]

Well, it would depend. In some states attempted suicide is a crime, isn't it?

And I do wonder how the Myspace case would affect a case like this--what sort of precedents could be established.

[kuwisdelu]

I never understood why suicide was a crime. Talk about a terrible idea.

[scarletpeaches]

There was a case in 19th (?) century England where a man attempted suicide, survived, was charged with attempted murder, and sentenced to hang for it.

I'll google it, see what I can come up with.

[MarkEsq]

Well, it would depend. In some states attempted suicide is a crime, isn't it?

I suppose it might be, how bizarre. I think the practicalities remain the same, though. After all, to have a legal "attempt" there has to be a predicate act of some significance, which I assume a defense lawyer would say was the act of suicide. Although if a prosecutor argued that opening a pill bottle, or loading a gun was the predicate act and the on-looker advised on how to do that... maybe. A conspiracy charge, too, perhaps. All very weird.

And I do wonder how the Myspace case would affect a case like this--what sort of precedents could be established.

They'd take a while to shake out, but you are right in that it is a very interesting case, legally speaking. I'll be watching it closely. :)

[mscelina]

Yeah, I'm afraid I have to bow to your expertise in matters such as these--which, naturally, grates my oats but hey! I can survive it.

[James81]

As someone who spends a lot of time online helping people with their problems and giving advice, this saddens me.

But in the back of my mind, I'm wondering, that as sick as it is for someone to "encourage" a suicide, did they really CAUSE it to happen? Is there a crime there? A crime of insensitivity and an extreme degrading sickness withing themselves...YES. But did the person actually commit suicide because there were people encouraging it? Doubtful. Sounds to me like it was someone who just wanted to go out with a bang and was so far beyond help at that point, that nothing said or done would've mattered.

[kuwisdelu]

Not to mention, considering it is the internet, the "this guy's joking" assumption can be a pretty hard one to ignore. Of course, it's best to assume the worst and act compassionately and accordingly, but it's still very easy to assume it's all a trick and a stunt. I'm not sure I can really blame anyone who honestly thought it was a stunt.

Of course, I'd probably think differently if it were a friend.

At the same time, you have to wonder what he was thinking to do it live on his webcam. I've known suicidal people, and when I'm worried about them, I'm as patient and understanding as I can be. However, after a while, it becomes clear who is really depressed, serious, looking for a way out, but would like to feel better, and who is just trying to get attention. I've known both. Of the suicidal people I've known, the former wouldn't do this kind of thing. The latter probably would. But that's only from my own experience.

[maestrowork]

Reminds me of that movie about Internet killing with Diane Lane.... Untraceable.

At first, the viewers thought it was a stunt, a joke, and they watched and egged the killer on... then when they realized it was real, it became morbid curiosity and people just couldn't not go there and look (in one ironic scene a kid who egged the killer on found his father to be the next victim -- and his friends were egging the killer on!) even though they knew their action would mean quicker death. And some would actually encourage the act because it was no skin off their back -- or they were just evil themselves.

The movie sucked, but it does ask a very interesting and legit question. Unfortunately, it seems like reality is catching up with fiction. I think we'll be seeing more of this. The number of Internet assholes are on the rise -- what do they care if someone kills themselves because of their "anonymous" acts online? The shit wouldn't hit the fan until they all get arrested and go to jail.....

[MarkEsq]

Yeah, I'm afraid I have to bow to your expertise in matters such as these--which, naturally, grates my oats but hey! I can survive it.


Ya talking to me? No one ever called me an expert in anything before, so surely not! And the thought that I might have caused your oats to grate, well, I could never forgive myself. Still, someone bowing to me... I can go along with that bit. :)

[mscelina]

LMAO! Don't get used to it. It rarely happens. ;)

[Cassiopeia]

Reminds me of that movie about Internet killing with Diane Lane.... Untraceable.

At first, the viewers thought it was a stunt, a joke, and they watched and egged the killer on... then when they realized it was real, it became morbid curiosity and people just couldn't not go there and look (in one ironic scene a kid who egged the killer on found his father to be the next victim -- and his friends were egging the killer on!) even though they knew their action would mean quicker death. And some would actually encouraged the act because it was no skin off their back -- or they were just evil themselves.

The movie sucked, but it does ask a very interesting and legit question. Unfortunately, it seems like reality is catching up with fiction. I think we'll be seeing more of this. The number of Internet assholes are on the rise -- what do they care if someone kills themselves because of their "anonymous" acts online? The shit wouldn't hit the fan until they all get arrested and go to jail.....I don't remember that the kid's dad was the next victim but I do remember sitting there in horror watching the movie and I believe that is the point of the entire storyline. Yesterday, I couldn't get around a traffic jam because people had to come to a complete stop to look at an accident. Why is it that we are so compelled to look instead of looking away?

That movie horrified me and trust me, I won't watch it twice. I've stayed away from such themes and think I'll stick to Finding Nemo over and over again. :D

[James81]

what do they care if someone kills themselves because of their "anonymous" acts online?

I simply don't believe that people kill themselves because some random stranger online tells them to.

Doesn't make what they are doing any less disgusting, but it's a stretch to think that someone killed themselves because of encouragement from a bunch of strangers.

[Plot Device]

Hmm.

Interesting question. Would encouraging a blogger on webcam to take a lethal dose constitute accessory to a crime? Obstruction of justice? Manslaughter?

It could go a lot of different ways if a court decided that this constituted some sort of crime. But then again, the Myspace suicide case is going to trial and that might establish some legal precedent that would apply to this case too.

I am told that the following is NOT illegal and has never been prosecuted:






















JUMP! JUMP! JUMP! JUMP!

http://www.danheller.com/images/Europe/CzechRepublic/Prague/People/crowd-looking-up-2-big.jpg






At least, that's what I have been told.






However, I'm sure Jack McCoy could certainly make a case out of it.




.

[maestrowork]

That's the thing -- for one person who cares and is concerned and would do something about it (call 911 or something), there will be another who really doesn't care if you die or not. Such is the true state of the world. We may be disgusted by it, but it happens. Not every human being has the conscience to do the right thing.

[Clair Dickson]

I never understood why suicide was a crime. Talk about a terrible idea.

I think suicide is only illegal so that they can force the person attempting it into treatment. But I could be wrong on that.

[Cassiopeia]

I simply don't believe that people kill themselves because some random stranger online tells them to.

Doesn't make what they are doing any less disgusting, but it's a stretch to think that someone killed themselves because of encouragement from a bunch of strangers.Perhaps it isn't the reason they got to that point in the first place but it could very well be that the online stranger tips the scales.

I've always found it interesting how people want to disavow themselves of any consequences from what they said with the statement, "It is only virtual reality dude. Check it, it isn't real."

Yeah, okay. right.

What we read and say online has unknown impact on the reader and ourselves. It is very real and what people don't stop to contemplate is this:

If you were sitting there knowing someone was taking pills or had a gun to their own head you would do all you could to stop them. Why is it okay to poke fun online? One should NEVER assume it is fake.

[Tirjasdyn]

Perhaps it isn't the reason they got to that point in the first place but it could very well be that the online stranger tips the scales.

I've always found it interesting how people want to disavow themselves of any consequences from what they said with the statement, "It is only virtual reality dude. Check it, it isn't real."

Yeah, okay. right.

What we read and say online has unknown impact on the reader and ourselves. It is very real and what people don't stop to contemplate is this:

If you were sitting there knowing someone was taking pills or had a gun to their own head you would do all you could to stop them. Why is it okay to poke fun online? One should NEVER assume it is fake.

You're right. However a lot of people cannot connect the internet to something tangible.

As a web designer I run into this a lot. We'll spend 20,000$ on a coupon flier...but when we point out that making said coupon available on our website will cost us less than a penny...because, and I quote, "people won't know its real".

The ability for people to disassociate themselves from something because they can't touch it is pretty amazing.

[MarkEsq]

The other problem with this particular incident that worries me is that someone seriously contemplating suicide might think, "Well hell, I'll go out in a blaze of publicity, too." One doesn't like to speak ill of the dead, but committing suicide like this may make him partially responsible for another's suicide, more so (in my mind) than the cyber-on-lookers were for his.
Just a thought.

[JoNightshade]

As someone who has grabbed the telephone out of her roommate's hand to stop her from berating her suicidal brother, I can say that many people's reaction to the threat of suicide is to try to "shake" the person out of it - by being abrasive, unsympathetic, telling them to knock it off, or even egging them on. I think it's similar to the anger response so many people go through after a loved one has committed suicide - how could they do this to me? Etc. There's an element of disbelief/irritation, and some people don't handle it well.

Which is all to say, no, I don't think there should be any sort of legal ramifications for those who watched him do it online.

[James81]

Why is it okay to poke fun online? One should NEVER assume it is fake.

Oh, I know. It's definately not ok to poke fun online cause online actions DO have real world repurcussions (whether we want to believe it or not).

I'm just saying that someone who kills themselves is already likely at the point of no return in the moments before they do it, and someone "egging them on" does not make it MUCH worse, just as someone trying to stop them isn't making it much better.

[kuwisdelu]

I think suicide is only illegal so that they can force the person attempting it into treatment. But I could be wrong on that.

It depends. In certain circumstances, that could work. In many cases, a metal health ward is the last place that will help someone who is suicidal, even if it's supposedly for the best. And on the other hand, I know someone who, upon waking and finding themselves handcuffed to a hospital bed and amazingly not dead, was told by a cop, "you're just lucky we're not pressing charges."

[benbradley]

I am told that the following is NOT illegal and has never been prosecuted:

JUMP! JUMP! JUMP! JUMP!.
There's the MySpace teen girl suicide case that's in court right now (probably needs its own thread, as if we haven't discussed it lots before) - it's a lot more complicated than yelling "Jump" - in fact the charge (from my weak understanding from scanning these articles) appears to have as much with the fact that she pretended to be some other fictional personality than herself, and other violations of Myspace's Terms Of Service, as what she actually said. What's unusual is such contract violations are usually considered a civil matter, but this is a criminal case:
The case against Drew hinges on a novel interpretation of the federal Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. MySpace's user agreement requires registrants, among other things, to provide factual information about themselves; to refrain from soliciting personal information from minors; and forbids members from using information obtained from MySpace services to harass or harm other people. By allegedly violating that click-to-agree contract, Drew committed the same crime as any hacker, prosecutors maintain.
http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/11/lori-drew-on-tr.html
So if that case is anything like a precedent, it looks like in this case those "egging him on" over the Internet could well be charged in a similar manner.

[Cassiopeia]

The other problem with this particular incident that worries me is that someone seriously contemplating suicide might think, "Well hell, I'll go out in a blaze of publicity, too." One doesn't like to speak ill of the dead, but committing suicide like this may make him partially responsible for another's suicide, more so (in my mind) than the cyber-on-lookers were for his.
Just a thought.I think you have a valid point here. When you think about it, he's advertising this as a way to go out that will make people really feel sorry for him.

I have a suspicion, and I could be wrong so people don't jump on me. I think he was wagering that someone would stop him. Most people who are bent on suicide are not attention seekers.

More to think about.

[maxmordon]

This has happened before and will happen again

[CACTUSWENDY]

Very sad. Some years back in a small chat room I went to there was a lady in Calif. that came into the room and was saying how she was fed up with life....etc. We all tried to talk to her and give her encouragement. She said she was, while chatting with us, taking some pills. One of the chatters got in touch with the web site and they in turn called the cops...

By the time the cops got there she was already laying on the floor out of it. After getting help and getting out of the hospital she came back into the chat room and thanked us all for helping her. Her family had been keeping us up dated while she was getting help.

I would never 'play' with someone that said they were doing themselves in. Take what they say as truth. If it is a lie....what harm has been done? If it is truth...you might be able to help them.

IMHO...for me personally, I think that if someone wants to take their own life in their hands...then it is between them and God. But usually those that do so with others around are looking for help. Again...this is just my two cents..........

[Dommo]

Honestly, it's hard to tell who's just being an attention whore(look at me, pity me, etc.) on the internet, and who's for real. I'm not condoning the egging on of a suicidal person, but if the people involved thought he was just being another attention whore online, then it's hard to really judge the situation. There are a lot of people who do put out fake suicide videos and other things like that in order to try garner sympathy or whatever else they're looking for.

[Ken]

...nice to see that some tried to talk him out of it.
There are kind people in the world with caring hearts.
It's really important to keep sight of this fact.
Otherwise the world can seem unbearably horrid,
and trying for even the most upbeat.

[Zoombie]

You should always help. If they are just an attention whore, they get some attention, no harm done other than some minor annoyance. If they are serious, you might be able to save a life. If its a joke, you either laugh about it later or not and again, no harm done.

I really can't understand why anyone wouldn't try to help.

But I also don't understand suicide...but that's more due to me being insufferably upbeat and happy.