U.S. Geography Question

[Aschenbach]

Hello all

I have written the first draft of a novel based in America. Although the town in which my story is set is completely fictional, I want to locate it in a real state. For the purposes of my story, the town has to be;

A small, blue collar, backwoods town, where the main employer is a sawmill.
Somewhere that can get very hot in summer, and pretty cold in winter.
Somewhere that ethnically is mostly white, especially of European origin.
Somewhere that still has a Native American presence.

So far, Oregon seems like the state with a pretty good match for my requirements. Am I mistaken? Are there other states that would fit better?

Thanks in advance.

[rugcat]

Oregon tends to the temperate, both winter and summer.

Maine or New Hampshire might be a better choice weatherwise --they also have those other requirements.

[mscelina]

Southern Ohio or West Virginia would also work, and perhaps the region along the Appalachians--eastern Tennessee, western North Carolina--which would have greater native American populations.

[JamieFord]

You just described Bonner, Montana.

[FinbarReilly]

I'd pitch for Northern California, close to, if not in, the Sacramento Valley. There are some Native Americans in the area, and the weather can range from snowy in the winter to where you can literally fry an egg during the summer.

FR

[Puma]

Or Michigan - Upper Peninnsula, but it wouldn't be ghastly hot in the summer. Puma

[Linda Adams]

Washington State fits the bill:



A small, blue collar, backwoods town, where the main employer is a sawmill.


There's a lot of logging that goes on in the state. I always saw logging trucks on the road.

Somewhere that can get very hot in summer, and pretty cold in winter.

Not sure what you're comparing the weather, too. It's certainly not like Wisconsin, but it does snow. Might be different further north (I was in the Seattle/Tacoma area). Summer wasn't as hot as Los Angeles.

Somewhere that ethnically is mostly white, especially of European origin.
Somewhere that still has a Native American presence.

Lots of Native Americans. They have places called Pullyup and Nisqually, both Indian names. The first one is pronounced Pee-all-up--everyone always pronounces it wrong! There were also some reservations locally.

You should be able to visit the state Website and get tourist info for free; you might even be able to do that with some of the smaller towns. The plus is with the Indian and historical aspects, you may be able to find a great deal of the research online through the park system. Make sure you check out the Olympic National Park online--if nothing else, you'll be able to get the names of the different trees in Washington.

[Gary]

Western Montana, Eastern Oregon, Eastern Washington, and most of Idaho.

[Deb Kinnard]

What about Minnesota? It can get quite hot in the summer and I'd say it meets your other criteria. Of course, the further north you go, the cooler the summer temperatures.

[RJK]

I'd go with Deb, Minnesota or Wisconsin. Lots of woods, lakes, hot summers and damn cold winters. Somewhere north of the twin cities. The population is mostly Scandinavian, descent and they have a large Native American population close by. Get on Google Earth and throw a dart.

[Chase]

You just described Bonner, Montana.

Jamie's right. You nailed Bonner. Bonner's Ferry, Idaho, was also named after lumberman E.L. Bonner and also fits your description.

I dodge lumber trucks every day between Molalla and Colton, Oregon. These Douglas fir foothills of Mount Hood have plenty of winter snow and sizzle during mid-summer.

Your problem is choosing among all these wonderful locations.

[Aschenbach]

Thank you for all the replies, most helpful!

I made a list of all the suggestions and located them on a map of the U.S. I excluded the southern states and california, which leaves;

Minnesota
Wisconsin
Western Montana
Eastern Oregon
Eastern Washington
Idaho
Michigan
Southern Ohio
West Virginia
Maine
New Hampshire

Can you help me narrow this dowm further? Another characteristic I would like in my state is that it is economically depressed, and perhaps somewhere that out-of-staters might think of as a little behind the times.

Also, if possible I would prefer a state that doesn't have a really distinctive/idiosyncratic accent, mainly because I don't want to give myself headaches when writing dialogue!

Thanks again.

[MissKris]

Your further characteristics pretty much disqualify Washington State. Despite recent state budget cuts, I wouldn't call it economically depressed. It's nothing like the midwest, Detroit, etc. and even Eastern Washington is well-educated and up-to-date (generally speaking). There isn't, however, a distinctive accent of any sort. We speak news anchor speak.

Good luck!

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Why America? What does that location give you that your own country doesn't?

You are setting yourself up for a mind-boggling amount of research just to get the background right. I've read several books supposedly about Montana that either didn't mention the Indians, got the tribes wrong, got the white folks wrong, got the history of the state wrong, etc.

[Ol' Fashioned Girl]

South-eastern Oklahoma.

[Puma]

In my opinion, the accent eliminates Wisconsin. The economic disadvantaged really fits the Upper Peninnsula of Michigan. It used to be a big iron and copper mining area but now most of the mines are closed. But, most timber is second growth - it was used extensively during the mining period. And the UP definitely has the back-woodsy, not quite up to date feel - cell phone reception is not good, internet access is not good. But wonderful country, people, and scenery. Puma

[Chase]

I've read several books supposedly about Montana that either didn't mention the Indians, got the tribes wrong, got the white folks wrong, got the history of the state wrong, etc.

You mean:

Gazing from the penthouse suite, forty stories above the streets of Two Dot, Rosebud Bulltail, hereditary princess of the Nez Pierce, watched the lights of her tribes’s casino liners passing along the Musselshell River. She still wore her light and airy jingle dress made of Copenhagen tops, her tiny feet yet ensconced in formal four-buckles for dancing. . . .

[III]

A small, blue collar, backwoods town, where the main employer is a sawmill.
Somewhere that can get very hot in summer, and pretty cold in winter.
Somewhere that ethnically is mostly white, especially of European origin.
Somewhere that still has a Native American presence.


You could pick any state in the continental U.S. and people from that state would agree that it fits your criteria, except for a few southern states that don't get really cold in the winter. Everyone thinks their state gets very hot in the summer and they all have regions within them that are mostly white with some Native American presence.

[dclary]

I'm writing a story about england. Can you name a place in england that has strong regional dialects, a great pub, some really neat historical sites, and gets cold or foggy in winter, but swealtering in summer?

[DeleyanLee]

Or Michigan - Upper Peninnsula, but it wouldn't be ghastly hot in the summer. Puma

Depends on how close you are to the lakes has been my experience. The water will cool it down quite a bit.

Plenty of beer, deer, coyotes and other critters up there still too.

[kristie911]

Describes Fountain, Michigan (I know...I grew up there). Tiny town, sawmill, hotter than blazes in the summer, colder than crap in the winter, fair amount of Native American population (it's within 20 minutes of a casino). Also a pretty poor area, no industry to speak of...it's only the sawmill that keeps the town alive. Population about 200. :)

It's actually located in Western Michigan about 35 minutes inland from Lake Michigan.

[Aschenbach]

Why America? What does that location give you that your own country doesn't?

You are setting yourself up for a mind-boggling amount of research just to get the background right. I've read several books supposedly about Montana that either didn't mention the Indians, got the tribes wrong, got the white folks wrong, got the history of the state wrong, etc.

Why did I set the story in America? It's just where I envisaged it taking place. I wanted to write something vaguely in the American gothic tradition. It would be a different story if I set it anywhere else.

Hopefully the research issue won't become too much of a problem. The story focuses quite tightly on the effects events have on my characters. So in my case I think it is appropriate to sketch the setting, rather than exhaustively describe it.

[Aschenbach]

I'm writing a story about england. Can you name a place in england that has strong regional dialects, a great pub, some really neat historical sites, and gets cold or foggy in winter, but swealtering in summer?

I've read your post a few times and I still can't work out if you are asking a serious question, or making an oblique point about the question I asked:D

Just in case it was the former, the answer is; anywhere in England. Only it never gets swelteringly hot over here, unless we have a freak heatwave for a few days!

[pdr]

Aschenbach, that the setting can be as accurate as you like, but unless you've researched social patterns, speech patterns, a day in the life of everyone in xyz community, your fiction will not ring true.

Research is an iceberg, what the writer shows is the 1/8th the reader needs to read to make the story American for them. You, the writer, have to know a whole lot more or you’ll end up with something an American would read with howls of laughter at all the cultural errors.

[mrockwell]

Can you help me narrow this dowm further? Another characteristic I would like in my state is that it is economically depressed, and perhaps somewhere that out-of-staters might think of as a little behind the times.

Also, if possible I would prefer a state that doesn't have a really distinctive/idiosyncratic accent, mainly because I don't want to give myself headaches when writing dialogue!

Thanks again.

I'll throw my vote in for Montana, as well. No accents to speak of, economically depressed, and people definitely still think of it as a backwards place (I've had people ask me, in all seriousness, when they find out I was born and raised there, if I rode a horse to school).

GL!

-- Marcy

[Aschenbach]

...or you’ll end up with something an American would read with howls of laughter at all the cultural errors.

The possibility of this happening did worry me while I was writing the first draft. And it still does. But I do have some direct experience of America to draw on.

I lived in Canada for a while. Of course Canada is not America, but I feel there are some significant similarities in the 2 cultures. I have also visited the U.S. as a tourist. Obviously this doesn't qualify me as an expert on American culture. But hopefully that experience, along with some judicious research, will allow me to make a decent attempt at telling the story without too many cultural boo-boos. I'll have a try anyway.

Thanks everyone for your input. I will do some more digging, but I think I have narrowed it down to either Michigan or Montana. (In an ideal world I would fly over and explore those states for myself, but this credit crunch thing is kicking my ass)

[Fingers]

May I suggest Estacada Oregon or Molalla Oregon. Both are in the willamette valley and are edged by the Mt Hood National Forest. Both towns were founded for and by a logging community. Estacada is around 2800 population and i think Molalla is around 4000. Both are economically depressed by the decline on the timber industry forced on them by the eco nuts who seem to abound in this state. The summers are hot and the winters are cold and generally see snow. Both towns are built around the turn of the last century, although the area around molalla is getting more populated as the Portland area folks move further from the city. Not much of an accent on the west coast here. Hope this helps.

(edit) Oh yes, there are also several different tribal affiliations in this area too.


yer pal Brian

[dclary]

I've read your post a few times and I still can't work out if you are asking a serious question, or making an oblique point about the question I asked:D

Just in case it was the former, the answer is; anywhere in England. Only it never gets swelteringly hot over here, unless we have a freak heatwave for a few days!

Regardless of my intent, the answer is the same: anywhere.

Same thing with America.

Except we're a jillion times bigger.

What the other folks said. The question you ask is so overarchingly vague that nearly every state in the union could find a town that would meet your needs. But every one of those towns would be (while at the same time disturbingly similar) so strikingly dissimilar that you would do your readers a disservice to not know the differences.

[Deb Kinnard]

I've read your post a few times and I still can't work out if you are asking a serious question, or making an oblique point about the question I asked. Just in case it was the former, the answer is; anywhere in England. Only it never gets swelteringly hot over here, unless we have a freak heatwave for a few days!

The day we arrived in York, it was "swelteringly hot." People were lounging around the motte at Clifford's Tower wearing shorts and tank tops. It made the headlines in the paper! Everybody was gulping soft drinks or bottled water on the street, moaning about how HOT it was!

Actual temperature? 80 F. We're from Chicago. We just laughed.

[Chase]

Of course Canada is not America. . . .

Interesting. I taught in a small college forty miles south of the Canadian line, many students from both sides. A local cultural quirk: most were under the impression that America was our mutual continent.

We were either in the U.S. or Canada . . . the states or the provinces . . . Alberta, Saskatchewan, or Montana . . . you had to be aware of both miles or kilometers per hour . . . but those who thought America was a country were usually from somewhere other than the Rocky Mountain northwest.

[Gary]

Northwestern Montana...south of Lake Kallispell.

[lakotagirl]

Minnesota North of Duluth.

Very cold in winter
A short "hot" season - sometimes only a couple of days long
Economically depressed since the mines shut down
Out of staters might think the people could be a little behind the times

[lvcabbie]

Excuse me for butting in here but I think it is nearly impossible to select a real location if you have never been there!
"Making up" a town is easy as it comes from the author's imagination. But, it is far too likely that the errors for guessing or listening to someone else takes away any value from the story.
There are many ways to research locations on the internet starting with examining a map of the US or Canada and doing Google or Yahoo searches for their websites.
Even then, you will not receive the "flavor" of the town unless you communicate with those who live there or actually visit the place.
I do not know where you live but would you be happy if I wrote something about it without ever having been there or getting to know you and your neighbors?

[ChessSafari]

Oregon should be out. It doesn't really get cold in the logging/sawmill areas. Eastern Oregon consists of either mountain terrain or high desert (i.e. not many trees).

Eastern Washington, especially Northeastern Washington near the Canadian border fits your description perfectly, in my opinion (e.g. Arlington, WA -- google it).

There's no more logging in New Hampshire to speak of, or anywhere else in New England for that matter, except Maine, where it is not only cold, but frigid with deep, deep snow.

Montana is more like Maine.

That's why I think Eastern Washington (Columbia County or north to the border) fits your description best.

I have lived in all of the areas mentioned, except Montana.

[Aschenbach]

Excuse me for butting in here but I think it is nearly impossible to select a real location if you have never been there!
"Making up" a town is easy as it comes from the author's imagination.

I did say at the top of the post that the town my story is set in is fictional. However I wanted to put it in a real state. (But thanks to everyone who suggested specific towns, it will help me focus my research).

I do not know where you live but would you be happy if I wrote something about it without ever having been there or getting to know you and your neighbors?

I wouldn't object to you having a go. Who am I to say another writer's project couldn't work?
Plenty of people write novels set in foreign countries. As long as you are prepared to plug the gaps in your knowledge with research, I say why not?

[ChessSafari]

Heck, nowadays with Google Earth and all the other satellite images, you actually CAN get an idea about someplace without actually living there.

For example, I recently went the Reno/Lake Tahoe area for the first time in my life. Ahead of time I visited mapquest and looked at the satellite photos. I felt like a native once I arrived.

[Ulee_Lhea]

Thank you for all the replies, most helpful!

I made a list of all the suggestions and located them on a map of the U.S. I excluded the southern states and california, which leaves;

Minnesota
Wisconsin
Western Montana
Eastern Oregon
Eastern Washington
Idaho
Michigan
Southern Ohio
West Virginia
Maine
New Hampshire



Was laughing at this list . . . good luck trying to find a place with no strong accent on here!

The western accent is not too bad . . . say Montana? But if you are looking to write a gothic slice of life, I might go for Michigan. It's got more of a settled feel . . . even in the really unsettled parts.

[Leva]

Northern Arizona fits all these requirements. You might look at the Flagstaff area and points east along the 1-40/Rte 66 corridor. I'm not sure which ones currently have working sawmills but logging is a major industry in the area, for ponderosa pine.

Demographics tend to be a mix of white (with a fair number of Mormons, though definitely exclusively so) with lots of multi-generational families who've been around since the late 1800's, native American (with Navajo, Hopi, and Apache most common), some hispanic, and everyone else in very small numbers. Besides logging there's also tourism, ranching, and mining/gravel quarries for industry and not a whole heck of a lot else. Quite a few retirees.

Accent isn't pronounced; standard American English would scan fine. There's a few local ideosyncrasies in pronunciation of place names and a few other words but no real weirdness with actual word usage.

You might consider inventing a town rather than using a real one. I've giggled my way through a few books that got things very wrong. Even Zane Grey changed place names. (Edit: I see you plan to do that. Good.)

-- Leva
(Who's currently watching snow flurries on the Mogollon Rim -- the Tonto Rim in Grey's books.)

Thank you for all the replies, most helpful!

I made a list of all the suggestions and located them on a map of the U.S. I excluded the southern states and california, which leaves;

Minnesota
Wisconsin
Western Montana
Eastern Oregon
Eastern Washington
Idaho
Michigan
Southern Ohio
West Virginia
Maine
New Hampshire

Can you help me narrow this dowm further? Another characteristic I would like in my state is that it is economically depressed, and perhaps somewhere that out-of-staters might think of as a little behind the times.

Also, if possible I would prefer a state that doesn't have a really distinctive/idiosyncratic accent, mainly because I don't want to give myself headaches when writing dialogue!

Thanks again.

[JoniBGoode]

Thank you for all the replies, most helpful!

I made a list of all the suggestions and located them on a map of the U.S. I excluded the southern states and california, which leaves;

Minnesota
Wisconsin
Western Montana
Eastern Oregon
Eastern Washington
Idaho
Michigan
Southern Ohio
West Virginia
Maine
New Hampshire

Can you help me narrow this dowm further? Another characteristic I would like in my state is that it is economically depressed, and perhaps somewhere that out-of-staters might think of as a little behind the times.

Also, if possible I would prefer a state that doesn't have a really distinctive/idiosyncratic accent, mainly because I don't want to give myself headaches when writing dialogue!

Thanks again.

You don't say when the story is set, but if it's anytime since about 2001, Michigan would fill the bill. Otherwise, more remote parts of Southern Ohio or West Virginia would work, for about the last two decades. Both of those areas are depressed.

Wisconsin is not really hot in the summer, although it is humid so it seems hotter.

Oregon, Washington and Northern California don't work because they are not economically depressed. And most people will see those areas as progressive, rather than "back woods."

[JoniBGoode]

Interesting. I taught in a small college forty miles south of the Canadian line, many students from both sides. A local cultural quirk: most were under the impression that America was our mutual continent.

We were either in the U.S. or Canada . . . the states or the provinces . . . Alberta, Saskatchewan, or Montana . . . you had to be aware of both miles or kilometers per hour . . . but those who thought America was a country were usually from somewhere other than the Rocky Mountain northwest.

Chase is being kind. Technically, Canada is in North America. Many Canadians get annoyed when citizens of the U.S. try to co-opt the entire continent, by calling themselves "Americans." They prefer "residents of the U.S."

Every part of the U.S. has a regional accent. (Sorry, that's kind of a duh.) People in California think they talk "normal" and people in Georgia, Wisconsin or Brooklyn, New York think they speak "normally" --i.e., with no accent. And they all sound completely different. So you have two choices: 1) Research the micro-dialect of your choosen area or 2) Make everybody sound like the news anchors on TV, who (to my ear) have a generic and rather bland Midwestern accent.

[SarahDavidson]

My $0.02...


I've lived in Washington State my entire life, and Oregon, Idaho, and even Montana have a LOT more culture than the northwestern part of this state. I think it's the backwoods capital of the world...

Port Angeles (and the little towns surrounding it) would be perfect for your story. If you watched "America's Toughest Jobs," P.A. was the setting where they did the final show -- which was, coincidentally, about logging. Nearly everyone there hunts, fishes, and chews tobacco. It gets warmish during the summer (80s, sometimes 90s) and usually gets a decent amount of snow (3-6 inches at a time with bitter cold in between, and occasionally a couple of feet) in the winter, especially out toward Forks and up in the forest (not so much directly in town because it's at sea level).

I lived there for nineteen years, and can tell you a lot of stories...the people there are certainly unique.

The tribe of Indians there is the S'Klallam, and I know several members if you would like to interview someone. They're famous lately for their whaling controversy--there was a big stink between the tribe and the environmentalists about their rights to traditional whaling. I can pass on your info and have someone call you--my family is good friends with a tribal counselor that works with kids at the tribal center.

Some of the smaller towns surrounding Port Angeles (Forks, Neah Bay, Clallam Bay, etc.) might be better suited to the "backwoods" vibe you're trying to get at. Lots of poverty, trailers, people living out in the sticks, driving around in pickups with gun racks in the back window. There was also some interesting controversy between the sawmill/paper mill and the tribe about Indian burials unearthed at one of the mill yards.

Lots of people in Port Angeles/Joyce/Forks/Neah Bay area like 4-wheeling, and some of the best mud trails are out at Clallam Timber. Deer, bear, cougars, coyotes, rabbits, ducks and grouse are plentiful. Salmon fishing is popular, as is halibut, trout, and ling cod. If you drive past Port Angeles out on Highway 101, you run into Lake Crescent, which is several miles long, incredibly deep, and home to kokanee (landlocked salmon that have never seen saltwater, not the beer *grin*), bass and trout. There are also some legends floating around about people that have sunk, died, and remained relatively well-preserved inside their vehicles after plunging into the lake, because the water is so cold.