Another Magic System

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Okay, no help remembering needed this time. I've been making an effort to integrate my magical system and the conworld it's in more. I see a lot of systems in published and amateur work that seem tacked on because magic is a fantasy convention, and I'm trying to avoid that feeling in my story.

So I have two requests:

1. Can anybody recommend to me some fantasy novels that they think have particularly well-integrated magical systems? I'd really oike examples that work with the setting and the plot, though if they are more connected to the setting, they'd still work for me. I'll probably have read some of them, but I won't hold it against you.;)



2. Since this world is already fairly well developed, at least in the broad strokes, I would love to hear some opinions on the version of magic I have so far. It's not fully developed yet, of course, and I have some possibilities that I haven't yet extrapolated upon, but I think there's easily enough to give a good idea of how the system works in a general sense, so that any possible holes are likely to be real mistakes on my part, and not an illusion caused by lack of information, or an incomplete/underdeveloped explanation. There's also a thread around here somewhere that discusses how the world is constructed, so I'll see if I can find it and post a link. But, for convenience, I'll give a quick rundown here.

The world is confined to a single planet, with s imilar solar sysstem and composition to that of Earth. It is divided into three "super-Layers", each of which contains one or more very similar "sub-Layers"(individual independent realities). To use a simple comparison, these Layers are suspended in a fluid medium, and retain separate identities by being surrounded by a sort of fluid-proof membrane. The fluids main purpose is to provide a form of lubrication and keep these Layers from rubbing up against each other. You may now substitute "fluid" with "spiritual/magical substance". The super-Layers are stacked on top of each other, with the center splitting into a linear string of sub-Layers, and the top and bottom being split vertically.

Magical "energy", for lack of a better term, is generated from the interaction of the fluid and membranes. Friction between these substances releases a form of power that can be manipulated in various ways by animate and inanimate forces. As a sort of nutrient transport system, there are streams of this power that penetrate the Layer membranes, forming a sort of ciculatory system. The fluid itself acts much like water in plant cells. As long as there is equal pressure on both sides of the membrane, the structure is solid. You couold look at this like the turgor pressure of a plant cell. The fluid also exists on the inside of the membrane.

The power generated by the friction of the membranes and the fluid can pass into the cell/Layer, where it is then usable for "magic". However, the physical matter inside the cells can interact with the ambient energy created by friction. Though no new material is created, the energy can be converted back to fluid, thus increasing the pressure/concentration on the inside of the membrane. Because the energy diffuses, and the fluid cannot, energy can keep entering a Layer, but fluid will never exit. This build-up causes the membrane to expand, and over time, it can expand enough to come into contact with other membranes. Friction between membranes wears them out, leaving holes and openings.

Because the pressure in the Layers is always higher than that outside, the fluid can diffuse through these leaks, and thus the membrane deflates. Matter cannot exist entirely without the Layers, and so, of course, this is not a good thing for those living in the Layers. But, their mere existence furthers this process, and eventually, equilibrium is unsalvageable. There are various methods employed to relieve this pressure, both purposefully and incidentally, but they are not exactly entirely good things either. That should explain the current interaction between the magic and the world at a physical level. It gets a lot more complicated after that.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

1. Can anybody recommend to me some fantasy novels that they think have particularly well-integrated magical systems?


Anything by Brandon Sanderson (e.g. Elantris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elantris), the Mistborn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistborn_series) trilogy). You could say that carefully constructed, well designed and unique magic systems are Sanderson's specialty.
Master of the Five Magics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_the_Five_Magics) by Lyndon Hardy.
The Prince of Nothing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Nothing) trilogy by R. Scott Bakker. The magic system seems sort of vague and poorly defined until you realize that it is a metaphor for the various ways humans understand (and hence control) nature (e.g. via analogies, mathematics, etc).
The EarthSea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Wizard_of_Earthsea) books (though the first one is the best for getting a taste of the magic system), by Ursula LeGuin.
The Coldfire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coldfire_trilogy) trilogy by C.S. Friedman.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Thanks for the response. I've read Earthsea and Elantris. I'm currently working on The Prince of Nothing and Mistborn. I have not read the others but they are now on my list. As the examples fo yours that I have already read fit quite nicely into my request, I hold high hopes for the other two suggestions.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

Thanks for the response. I've read Earthsea and Elantris. I'm currently working on The Prince of Nothing and Mistborn. I have not read the others but they are now on my list. As the examples fo yours that I have already read fit quite nicely into my request, I hold high hopes for the other two suggestions.
Master of the Five Magics is kind of hard to get these says. I think it is out of print. You might have some luck with used bookstores or Amazon. But if you are looking for magic systems that are well fleshed out and which play a major part in the plot then it is definitely something you should read.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I've looked both up on Wikipedia. They sound very good.

[Nivarion]

terry brooks magic system was well integrated with his story, it was just never explained.

it was there and it was vital, its just that you knew nothing about it.

[Cybernaught]

Shadowfall by James Clemens has a fairly unique system.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I'm not a Brooks fan,


but I'll give Shadowfall a look, thanks, Cybernaught.


Now, if only I could get some responses to the second question.

[OremLK]

Anything by Brandon Sanderson (e.g. Elantris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elantris), the Mistborn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistborn_series) trilogy). You could say that carefully constructed, well designed and unique magic systems are Sanderson's specialty.

Seconded. Also check out David Farland's The Runelords and sequels; one might quibble about certain elements of the series (though I loved it), but they're a spectacular example of how to craft magic systems well.

Robin Hobb also did a good job with magic in the Assassin and Fool books.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Seconded. Also check out David Farland's The Runelords and sequels; one might quibble about certain elements of the series (though I loved it), but they're a spectacular example of how to craft magic systems well.

Robin Hobb also did a good job with magic in the Assassin and Fool books.


I know the series by Farland, but I've never read it.

Hobb's on my list for Soldier Son already. I'll give her other books a try, then.

[Smiling Ted]

Check out John Gregory Keyes' series, The Age of Unreason.
It's a "what if" in which it was Newton's work on Alchemy, rather than Physics, that developed most successfully.
Brilliant.

I second the Earthsea recommendation. If you've already read it, consider reading it again, at least the first book. LeGuin also had a couple of short stories set in that universe in her anthology The Wind's Twelve Quarters. If you can find it at the library or a used bookstore, it's worth it, because each of those stories illustrated a single magical principle of her world: The rule of names, and the nature of death.

Three more books that are classics, but probably out of print:
Jack of Shadows, by Roger Zelazny, and
The Dying Earth and/or The Eyes of the Overworld,by Jack Vance.
They feature worlds in which the magical principles are clearly laid out, are untraditional, and control the action.

[Smiling Ted]

Umm...
One last thought.
As I consider all of these suggestions, the biggest similarity that I notice is that all these systems have only handful of big, easily understood principles. No more than three or four, usually less. All the implications work themselves out of those basics.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Ted, I'm fairly sure I own almost all the Earthsea novels, and I've read all of them more than once, as well as a short story collection.

I'll give your other suggestions a look.

[OremLK]

I know the series by Farland, but I've never read it.

Hobb's on my list for Soldier Son already. I'll give her other books a try, then.

The Soldier Son trilogy is excellent, but the magic in it is very nebulous, very hard to decipher in terms of its precise rules and mechanisms. For my personal taste, this is a weakness of the story; I think magic ought to be governed by laws, as is the rest of the universe in reality. Makes things more believable and keeps the reader from feeling like he/she has been cheated. (What? He's making a fourth wish? I thought he only got three!)

[Liosse de Velishaf]

The Soldier Son trilogy is excellent, but the magic in it is very nebulous, very hard to decipher in terms of its precise rules and mechanisms. For my personal taste, this is a weakness of the story; I think magic ought to be governed by laws, as is the rest of the universe in reality. Makes things more believable and keeps the reader from feeling like he/she has been cheated. (What? He's making a fourth wish? I thought he only got three!)

Well, to an extent it is nebulous... but there are some basic rules. I actually enjoyed the system quite a lot. It's true that lawful systems encourage believability, but some of the more organic ones can be far more interesting, if they fit well in their story and world.

[OremLK]

It's definitely a matter of taste, as Brandon Sanderson noted on his blog (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/434/Sandersons-First-Law--Amphigory) awhile back. I agree there's room for both; I just happen to prefer the ones with stricter, clearer rules.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

It's definitely a matter of taste, as Brandon Sanderson noted on his blog (http://www.brandonsanderson.com/blog/434/Sandersons-First-Law--Amphigory) awhile back. I agree there's room for both; I just happen to prefer the ones with stricter, clearer rules.


Fair enough. I enjoy each in their own way, but "scientific" systems have certainly become more popular of late. Nothing wrong with that. Most of my own systems tend towards ordered rules, such as the on in the second part of my original post. I greatly enjoyed that blog post the first time it was suggested to me. I will note that knowing rules is only one kind of understanding. But I certainly appreicate your position.

[Bartholomew]

I really like the world-building you've shared. It has a lot of potential for coolness.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I really like the world-building you've shared. It has a lot of potential for coolness.


Ah, finally... Thank you. Would you care to elaborate?

[Dommo]

I've got to agree with the "hard fantasy". I'm a fan of magic systems that follow some set of logical rules. Otherwise, who'd really want to risk using magic? I mean honestly, given how capable it is, if there's no real understanding of how it works, then every time a character casts a spell or uses magic, then they'd really be taking a risk.

I suppose it could work sometimes(when it's more like a person asking a god for help etc.), but in most stories and settings an entirely unpredictable and uncontrollable magical system, wouldn't be desirable. I read a fantasy novel once where this was actually a major plot point in the story, and the main character sought to create a system of magic that was safe and predictable.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I've got to agree with the "hard fantasy". I'm a fan of magic systems that follow some set of logical rules. Otherwise, who'd really want to risk using magic? I mean honestly, given how capable it is, if there's no real understanding of how it works, then every time a character casts a spell or uses magic, then they'd really be taking a risk.

I suppose it could work sometimes(when it's more like a person asking a god for help etc.), but in most stories and settings an entirely unpredictable and uncontrollable magical system, wouldn't be desirable. I read a fantasy novel once where this was actually a major plot point in the story, and the main character sought to create a system of magic that was safe and predictable.

We're getting the slightest bit off-topic here, but:

Well, often, a magical system sans rules really does have rules, they just aren't visible to the reader. I think the majority of authors have a fairly good idea of what consequences stem from what actions. I think it would be really hard to create a truly random system, which is what "uncontrollable" implies, though I suppose you could use game stats or something to guess success or result rates. :flag:

If you really want to discuss this issue in detail, perhaps a new thread would be in order? No need for a repeat of the Hermione porn situation.

[Dommo]

I wasn't trying to derail the post, but what I was trying to say was that you've got to be careful in designing the magic system so that it has some definable limits(I always like the idea presented in "Full metal Alchemist" with the idea of equivalent exchange). By uncontrollable, I mean "not fully understood and thus not fully controlled". If I know how to conjure up a fireball, but don't really understand how that fireball comes into being, then I'm playing with something pretty dangerous.

Using the full metal alchemist idea, I thought was interesting, because it opened up truly unlimited magical power, but at the same time limited it. If you wanted to make say a sword, you'd need to have the material on hand to "exchange" for it. Depending on what you wanted to do, it took some form of "price" to achieve it. It was scientific in that the system had a sort of logic to it, that made sense to me intuitively, but was also fantasy based in that it could do some pretty wild stuff.

The problem that Sanderson mentions in his blog, is key. That unexplained magic, often can start to feel like Deus ex Machina type of plot device. If a main character can just magically pull a trick out of their hat at any given point, it's hard to keep a person's interest in the story.

All I'm saying is that this is an issue that you'll definitely want to look into, because a well done magic system can really add a lot to a story, and I have read a few fantasy stories that really did kind of tank in the magic department.

[Rabe]

I know the series by Farland, but I've never read it.

Hobb's on my list for Soldier Son already. I'll give her other books a try, then.

Her magic system in the Soldier Son trilogy is much better than what she did in Assassin's Apprentice and Tawny Man series.

I especially liked the part of the more bulk the more powerful the mage.

Rabe...

[OremLK]

Her magic system in the Soldier Son trilogy is much better than what she did in Assassin's Apprentice and Tawny Man series.

I especially liked the part of the more bulk the more powerful the mage.

Rabe...

To each his own. I thought the magic in the "FitzChivalry" books made a lot more sense and was explained better (particularly the Skill), but that's just my opinion, I guess.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I wasn't trying to derail the post, but what I was trying to say was that you've got to be careful in designing the magic system so that it has some definable limits(I always like the idea presented in "Full metal Alchemist" with the idea of equivalent exchange). By uncontrollable, I mean "not fully understood and thus not fully controlled". If I know how to conjure up a fireball, but don't really understand how that fireball comes into being, then I'm playing with something pretty dangerous.

Using the full metal alchemist idea, I thought was interesting, because it opened up truly unlimited magical power, but at the same time limited it. If you wanted to make say a sword, you'd need to have the material on hand to "exchange" for it. Depending on what you wanted to do, it took some form of "price" to achieve it. It was scientific in that the system had a sort of logic to it, that made sense to me intuitively, but was also fantasy based in that it could do some pretty wild stuff.

The problem that Sanderson mentions in his blog, is key. That unexplained magic, often can start to feel like Deus ex Machina type of plot device. If a main character can just magically pull a trick out of their hat at any given point, it's hard to keep a person's interest in the story.

All I'm saying is that this is an issue that you'll definitely want to look into, because a well done magic system can really add a lot to a story, and I have read a few fantasy stories that really did kind of tank in the magic department.


Oh, I know. I wasn't refering to anyone's post specifically, just the discussion in general. It wasn't my intent to have a discussion about the arguments between scientific and free-form magical systems, though I do find the discussion interesting. All I wanted was a few recommendations for books and maybe a few comments on the portion of my system posted so far.


Now, to contradict myself on my goals: I understand the point about deux ex machina. It's a lot harder to write a free-form system convincingly, but it can be much more rewarding for some readers. I certainly enjoy being able to know the rules, since one of my prime interests is con-worlding, which is all about the functioning of the world, but a free-form system can be fascinating.

[FennelGiraffe]

I think the writer needs to know the rules of the magic system, its limits and its costs. I don't think explaining it to the reader is always necessary.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

I think the writer needs to know the rules of the magic system, its limits and its costs. I don't think explaining it to the reader is always necessary.

Exactly. Now, about moving this particular discussion to its own thread... please do so if at all possible.