Your pet peeves in fantasy

[efreysson]

Got any frequently used fantasy stock characters, plot devices or situations that get on your nerves?

In my case I get very annoyed when the supposed hero of a story succeeds pretty much exclusively because of all the help he got. Those stories where, say, the MC escapes assassins due to being hidden by friendly farmers, makes it to the forest where the elves guide him through a monster-infested area, after which he survives an encounter with an ogre solely due to a magic item given to him by a hermit, then survives an ambush by royal guards due to the rebels showing up to help him, etc. etc . . . He's less of a driving force, and more of a passenger, being knocked into various directions by others.
I find this especially grating when the hero is some variation of 'The Chosen One!!', and is supposed to be some mighty, awe-inspiring champion.

Heck speaking of 'The Chosen One!!' it also bugs me when such a character is for the most part a total putz who spends most of the story whining about how he's not the great hero, only to finally pull himself together during the final battle. A recent movie example that spring to mind is the portrayal of John Connor in Terminator 3. The future savior and leader of mankind just came across as boring and weak.

I mean, I don't want invincible Mary Sues, but if I'm going to read through a doorstopper, the main character needs to have SOME chops of his own, don't you agree? What's wrong with characters that are flawed yet impressive?

Another thing that irks me is a cast-iron prophecy predicting the victory of the good guys. You know, the one that prompts the evil tyrant to take extreme measures to prevent it, only to actually set the hero on the course of eventually destroying him. An epic victory that is apparently inevitable doesn't really seem like much of a victory to me.
A seer's prediction plays a major role in setting my MC on the path that eventually leads to victory, but the seer makes it clear that it's merely the path most likely to end well.

[SPMiller]

I have absolutely no problem reading about characters who aren't nigh-invincible badasses who can force most people around them to do whatever they want, as is the case in most fantasy novels. Vulnerability and weakness are interesting to me.

However, I've come to dislike stories about children. Too often, stories about adolescents fit the hero's journey mold, and I'm finding that old story template to be worn a bit thin. Pre-adolescent children tend to be too mature and world-wise to be believable.

I also hate fantasy cover art. I swear, maybe a single-digit percentage of covers don't have either a drawn sword or a woman in an armored bikini that leaves portions of her midriff unprotected. Bonus points for women in steel bikinis wielding swords.

[Death Wizard]

Got any frequently used fantasy stock characters, plot devices or situations that get on your nerves?

In my case I get very annoyed when the supposed hero of a story succeeds pretty much exclusively because of all the help he got. Those stories where, say, the MC escapes assassins due to being hidden by friendly farmers, makes it to the forest where the elves guide him through a monster-infested area, after which he survives an encounter with an ogre solely due to a magic item given to him by a hermit, then survives an ambush by royal guards due to the rebels showing up to help him, etc. etc . . . He's less of a driving force, and more of a passenger, being knocked into various directions by others.
I find this especially grating when the hero is some variation of 'The Chosen One!!', and is supposed to be some mighty, awe-inspiring champion.

Heck speaking of 'The Chosen One!!' it also bugs me when such a character is for the most part a total putz who spends most of the story whining about how he's not the great hero, only to finally pull himself together during the final battle. A recent movie example that spring to mind is the portrayal of John Connor in Terminator 3. The future savior and leader of mankind just came across as boring and weak.

I mean, I don't want invincible Mary Sues, but if I'm going to read through a doorstopper, the main character needs to have SOME chops of his own, don't you agree? What's wrong with characters that are flawed yet impressive?

Another thing that irks me is a cast-iron prophecy predicting the victory of the good guys. You know, the one that prompts the evil tyrant to take extreme measures to prevent it, only to actually set the hero on the course of eventually destroying him. An epic victory that is apparently inevitable doesn't really seem like much of a victory to me.
A seer's prediction plays a major role in setting my MC on the path that eventually leads to victory, but the seer makes it clear that it's merely the path most likely to end well.

I tend to agree with most of this. I don't like MC's that are borderline bumblers. I like my MC's very strong -- not so strong that they overwhelm all resistance, of course, but strong enough to put up a damn good fight, even early on.

One small pet-peeve is that I don't like it when writers use the verb "fire" when it comes to arrows. You don't fire an arrow.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

Genuine prophecies (as opposed to prophecy that is self-fulfilling or which is simply superstition). People seem to not realize that prophecy is essentially time travel, and invokes all the same ridiculous causality paradoxes that (for me at least) completely burst the suspension of belief. But more importantly, genuine prophecy in fantasy is all too often the herald of a plot-driven story rather than a character-driven story, in which cardboard cutout characters perform actions not out of some internal consistency or coherent motive but rather because the story requires that they do so (see e.g. the works of Sara Douglass)

Fawning sidekicks. Actually, scratch that -- I hate this not just with sidekicks, but with any kind of character who spends the bulk of his/her 'on-screen' time talking about the protagonist, obsessing about the protagonist, or wangsting over the protagonist. In other words, I hate it when the protagonist is the center of the universe: when everyone is defined entirely by their relation with the protagonist, and/or no one else seems to have lives of their own, and they have to live vicariously through the protagonist (David Weber, I'm looking at you!). Which leads me to the next pet peeve...

Moral compasses where the protagonist defines North. i.e. Where the morality of a side-character is determined by their alignment with the protagonist -- those who oppose or don't like the protagonist are evil, while those who like (i.e. obsessively adore) and obey the protagonist are good. Meanwhile the protagonist can do no wrong: actions that would qualify the antagonist as the vilest scum to ever walk the Earth go unquestioned when the protagonist does them (see e.g. Terry Goodkind...strike that, don't see Goodkind, stay away!).

'Hero' and 'Villain' as career-paths. Or in other words, any character whose occupation could legitimately be described as "doing good" or "doing evil" (except in parodies like The Incredibles or Soon I Will Be Invincible).

Evil Races, especially Evil, Ugly Races with 'Guttural' Languages. i.e. Orcs knock-offs.

Viewpoint Diarrhea, otherwise known as "Erikson's Disease". I don't like it when there are too many viewpoint characters. I can follow and identify with two, maybe three really good characters (or a few more if you write as well as G.R.R. Martin), but if the author expects me to give a shit about 9+ characters, or even to remember their names, then I am afraid that's expecting too much.

Oh and yes, I agree that the "fire" thing with arrows is really annoying...

[Death Wizard]

Genuine prophecies (as opposed to prophecy that is self-fulfilling or which is simply superstition). People seem to not realize that prophecy is essentially time travel, and invokes all the same ridiculous causality paradoxes that (for me at least) completely burst the suspension of belief. But more importantly, genuine prophecy in fantasy is all too often the herald of a plot-driven story rather than a character-driven story, in which cardboard cutout characters perform actions not out of some internal consistency or coherent motive but rather because the story requires that they do so (see e.g. the works of Sara Douglass)

Fawning sidekicks. Actually, scratch that -- I hate this not just with sidekicks, but with any kind of character who spends the bulk of his/her 'on-screen' time talking about the protagonist, obsessing about the protagonist, or wangsting over the protagonist. In other words, I hate it when the protagonist is the center of the universe: when everyone is defined entirely by their relation with the protagonist, and/or no one else seems to have lives of their own, and they have to live vicariously through the protagonist (David Weber, I'm looking at you!). Which leads me to the next pet peeve...

Moral compasses where the protagonist defines North. i.e. Where the morality of a side-character is determined by their alignment with the protagonist -- those who oppose or don't like the protagonist are evil, while those who like (i.e. obsessively adore) and obey the protagonist are good. Meanwhile the protagonist can do no wrong: actions that would qualify the antagonist as the vilest scum to ever walk the Earth go unquestioned when the protagonist does them (see e.g. Terry Goodkind...strike that, don't see Goodkind, stay away!).

'Hero' and 'Villain' as career-paths. Or in other words, any character whose occupation could legitimately be described as "doing good" or "doing evil" (except in parodies like The Incredibles or Soon I Will Be Invincible).

Evil Races, especially Evil, Ugly Races with 'Guttural' Languages. i.e. Orcs knock-offs.

Viewpoint Diarrhea, otherwise known as "Erikson's Disease". I don't like it when there are too many viewpoint characters. I can follow and identify with two, maybe three really good characters (or a few more if you write as well as G.R.R. Martin), but if the author expects me to give a shit about 9+ characters, or even to remember their names, then I am afraid that's expecting too much.

Oh and yes, I agree that the "fire" thing with arrows is really annoying...

Excellent points!!!

(Although I love Erikson, nonetheless. He always draws me in in the end. But Reaper's Gale has been disappointing, at least the first 650 pages of it.)

[SPMiller]

Pretty sure that guy who uses Erikson as a pen name has a lot more than nine POV characters. If you count all the one-offs, he has probably used several dozen.

[Death Wizard]

Pretty sure that guy who uses Erikson as a pen name has a lot more than nine POV characters. If you count all the one-offs, he has probably used several dozen.

He uses about 50 in Reaper's Gale alone.

Regardless, it's brilliant.

[IdiotsRUs]

I also hate fantasy cover art. I swear, maybe a single-digit percentage of covers don't have either a drawn sword or a woman in an armored bikini that leaves portions of her midriff unprotected. Bonus points for women in steel bikinis wielding swords.

Do I win a prize then? :)

Gotta agree with the points above - but of course if it's written so well I don't notice...

Oh yeah what I hate most is three pages of bloody info dump! If it absolutely has to be told - do it as and when we need it in small bite size pieces. Please.

[OremLK]

Much like any other novel, constantly and flagrantly violating point of view. Lies of Locke Lamora may have a great plot, ideas, even characters, but I'll never find out because I just don't find it readable when the author can't stick to one character's impressions and thoughts at a time.

[eLfwriter]

Generally I love fantasy, but there are a lot of points in this forum I totally agree with.

Something that bugs me? Wizards. Not all wizards, just the ones who probably could have told you all about everything, but for reasons unknown, decide to withold half of the information until the very end of the book. If there's a good reason, I don't mind waiting, but if it's just because they feel like it, wizards (the usual medium for such exposition) just become annoying.

Another thing that gets me every time is when there are pages of scenery discription that have nothing really relevant to the progression of the plot. It's just a long list of adjectives describing exactly what so-or-so is wearing, or such-and-such field. In the end, it's inevitable that the MC moves on without a second glance. They pass GO without any symbolic meaning, then they pick up their 200$ and run, never to return or allude to the three pages I slogged through.

And Palace Guards. I feel so sorry for them! Why do the heroes always have to cut their way through the poor palace guards who are only having a bit of gambling fun at the end of a long day standing around guarding the palace? On that note, why can't the Palace Guards fight back? @_@ Confuses me.


The thing that bothers me the most about fantasy, however, are numerous sequels. I'm all for the sequel in most senses of the term, generally because I love coming back to a good set of characters and finding out what they're up to, whether they survived, where that gosh darn sword actually is hidden ... but I hate when you get to book five, and all of a sudden, without any warning whatsoever, some minor character from page three of book one pops up and expects you to remember everything about them because they've suddenly become part of the plot. I've seen this done way too many times without even a passing line of discription. I'd appreciate even a little "oh, hi, Tara! How's your tavern back in the village?" to spark my memory. Alas, for there is often no explanation!


Ah, well, I guess if you got rid of all the things that bug us about fantasy novels, we wouldn't have fantasy any more, right? New is wonderful, but smatterings of old elements are what make the strangest of new worlds feel comfortable and familiar.

[Vomaxx]

"Chosen Ones" should be banned by the publishing industry for the next decade at least. "Dark Lord" should have been trademarked by Tolkien, so nobody else could use it. And prophecies... away with them!

[tehuti88]

Tavern brawl scenes.

Elves.

Boy wizards.

Vampires.

Series. (But only because I get too impatient waiting for more parts, and prefer to buy all parts at once. The world needs more standalone stories!)

Weird character names as the title.

Really weird pompous cliched fantasy-sounding names, period.

High fantasy. (Sorry. I just don't get most of it.)

With females, the smart, bookish twin and the bumbling goofy twin; OR, with males, the muscular, heroic twin and the weak but hyper-smart/powerful mage twin (and they usually don't even look remotely alike). (Other than that I'm fine with twins.)

I'm sure there's more but this is the most annoying stuff. Even with the above, though, I'm willing to forgive if it's all presented in an interesting manner. (I've got nothing against the farmboy out to save the world, though I haven't read much of that so that might be why; maybe if I read more I'd hate that cliche too.) The thing is, these things have been so overdone that I'll usually sneer at the book before even giving it a shot.

[IdiotsRUs]

Tavern brawl scenes.

But...but...that's what pubs are FOR! Macho pride + alcohol = fisticuffs.

Obviously you've never been around at kicking out time in say Glasgow.

[eLfwriter]

Elves.





But ...!

Elves are cool! They're descendants of the Sidhe! Not all elves have to be tall, perfect and graceful imortal beings! Some of them are down-to-earth, wonky attitude, just-as-important-as-the-huge-guy-with-an-important-slash-legendary-sword characters!

I protest. Dwarves are more annoying than elves. Not little people. Just the dwarves that have beards that fall to their ankles and live for digging up jewels.

So there. :wag:

[eLfwriter]

But...but...that's what pubs are FOR! Macho pride + alcohol = fisticuffs.




Agreed.

[SPMiller]

Do I win a prize then? :)Your novel is fantasy-romance, possibly verging on romance, amirite? ;) There's a whole other set of romance-cover cliches.

But I'll give you a prize anyway.

[Gynn]

Dragons.

I'm so tired of dragons. Get a sphinx as a companion/end boss. Or a manticore. Or an evil unicorn that shoots darkness from its horn. Anything.

[Smiling Ted]

Fantasy fans who buy books by weight.

[OremLK]

Addendum to my earlier griping about point of view: It's not enough to just stick to one character's thoughts and impressions at a time. In addition, please do not interject your own thoughts and impressions into the narrative. You're the author. I don't care how clever you are, I don't want to know you're there, because then I remember I'm reading a novel, and I want to pretend the stuff happening is real, dammit.

[Nivarion]

Tavern brawl scenes.

as soon as i saw this i knew this was coming

But...but...that's what pubs are FOR! Macho pride + alcohol = fisticuffs.

ive never actually been in one, but i know a lot of people who have, and that seems to be what they are for. people get drunk, then they fight.

my biggest pet peeve is when a character has to go one place and gets there is a week, and then goes another place that is half the distance and takes two weeks to get there.

and seriously, you don't fire an arrow, you loose. its called fire with a fire are because guess what? they use fire. its loosing with a bow because guess what? you let it go.
Micro rant

Dragons.

I'm so tired of dragons. Get a sphinx as a companion/end boss. Or a manticore. Or an evil unicorn that shoots darkness from its horn. Anything.

but dragons are so big and firery. bah in reallity they do get over used, for a "rare" species. i perfer human enemies myself.

i use elves, but thats for a lack of better names. they have elven fetures but they are a lot closer to humans than the run of the mill elves.

going to stop before i ramble.

[Anares]

I really really hate exposition. We don't use exposition in our lives to convey what cars are (for the most part at least), why should book characters use exposition to relay unusual ideas? It can be difficult, it might take striking your keyboard more times than not, but man if you're going to write, then write. Let it flow from the heart and let it be, don't waste time by explaining everything. The reader is smart, they'll pick it up. Don't spoon feed us please!

Believe me, I have tried very hard to eliminate exposition, or to disguise it into something else that still explains what I'm trying to convey without getting MY voice in there. Let the characters experience it, view it, let them relate it via their lives to the audience, not lay it out straight for the reader to lose the momentum of the story over.

As for series, I love series. A really good series can lay a great single book in ashes of itself. No single book ever gives me the feeling of finality. I always want more, more, more. As long as the author can keep it interesting, even if it requires changing characters every so often, or following bloodlines. Once a world becomes part of your blood, your soul, it hurts to let it go. Always I am left asking, "but then what happened?"

[dclary]

Dwarves are more annoying than elves. Not little people. Just the dwarves that have beards that fall to their ankles and live for digging up jewels.Pointy-ears has a point. For crying out loud, even TOLKIEN thought long-bearded jewel-diggers were overblown.

[Varthikes]

One small pet-peeve is that I don't like it when writers use the verb "fire" when it comes to arrows. You don't fire an arrow.

A quick off-topic question: How should it be said?

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

A quick off-topic question: How should it be said?
"Loose!"

"Fire!" comes from the use of flaming torches and lit matches to discharge early cannons and muskets.

[SPMiller]

I generally use loose/release.

[IdiotsRUs]

I really really hate exposition. We don't use exposition in our lives to convey what cars are (for the most part at least), why should book characters use exposition to relay unusual ideas? It can be difficult, it might take striking your keyboard more times than not, but man if you're going to write, then write. Let it flow from the heart and let it be, don't waste time by explaining everything. The reader is smart, they'll pick it up. Don't spoon feed us please!

Yep gotta agree there.Resit Urge to Explain. Incluing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incluing) is the way to go. However there are times when it just needs to happen, so don't get all convoluted trying to avoid it.

[dclary]

This is why I've eschewed archery altogether in my WIP. Characters just throw rocks at each other. Great lines of rockers, facing each other at a distance, their commanders shouting "Rock out!" and "Rock away!" The greatest rock tossers become known as rock stars.

[eLfwriter]

Pointy-ears has a point. For crying out loud, even TOLKIEN thought long-bearded jewel-diggers were overblown.


YES!! Point for the elf population!!

:hooray: :thankyou: :Trophy: :e2cheer: :hooray:



To add to the topic while I gloat, I've got to admit that not all cliches are necesarily bad. If a fantasy novel is too out-there-strange, I find that I lose interest pretty quickly simply because I find it hard to relate to as fantasy. I'm all for the new twist on an old theme, that's what catches my attention. But the old theme is sort of what drew me in in the first place. Makes me feel comfy with the book and not like I missed something (sort of like when you accidentally start reading a book and realize half way through that it's book three of eight. Oh, right, that bugs me too. How is it that we writers can't seem to get numbers put on the series?? Boggled.)

Names. I don't mind if a bunch of characters have the same starting letter for a name, as long as the letters behind it are different enough. I'm all for the cool-looking names so long as I can either a) sound it out, b) make an attempt at sounding it out, c) shorten it for my own reading ease, or d) there's a pronunciation guide somewhere.

Point in question, from Lustbader's 'Ring of Five Dragons' ...

-Khagggun
-Argggudus
-Stogggul
-seigggon

No word of a lie. I coppied those right out of the book. How do you pronounce three Gs in a row?? My best guess for the first one is "Caw-guh-guh-gun". Shiver. If someone knows better, please enlighten me! I'd like to finish the book, but I can't seem to get by stumbling over all the tripple Gs and triple Xs (didn't even attempt those).

Oh, one last thing that's always got me is a vampyre with a gun. I don't know what it is about that picture, but it just sort of bothers me for some reason. Angels with guns makes me twitch too. Anyone seen the relatively new movie Gabriel? hmmmmmmm.... arch with a gun ... several guns ...

*shakes self out of cringe-mode and leaves to find chocolate and hot tea to aide in recovery process*

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

-Khagggun
-Argggudus
-Stogggul
-seigggon

No word of a lie. I coppied those right out of the book. How do you pronounce three Gs in a row??
An easy to make mistake -- when you have three g's in a row then they are all silent.

Oh, one last thing that's always got me is a vampyre with a gun. I don't know what it is about that picture, but it just sort of bothers me for some reason. Angels with guns makes me twitch too.
So I guess you really don't like that episode from season 4 of Angel where the eponymous vampire goes bad and gets his hands on a shotgun.

[spaceman4572]

I hate it when the author feels the need to have a running commentary on what everyones wearing as they walk into the room and how low their neckline is or how their arms are crossed below their boobs *glares at Jordan* I love jordans early WOT work but after a while he just rambled and i've found that a lot of acclaimed fantasy authors feel the need to describe what everyones wearing. the only other genre that really does this is harlequine romance and thats because its a just beyond naught book that depends on pirates wearing fluttery shirts and tight leather pants. but this discriptiveness has no use in fantasy. and for that matter when there are pages and pages of information to read through. I'm all for filling in a reader when they pick up the second book in a series by accident but frankly if you can't write it as a standalone then theres no use in writing the book blarga blarga rabble rabble.

[eLfwriter]

An easy to make mistake -- when you have three g's in a row then they are all silent.


huff. pish. silent Gs. grrrrr.



So I guess you really don't like that episode from season 4 of Angel where the eponymous vampire goes bad and gets his hands on a shotgun.


OMG don't remind me!!!!!

*runs to go spork out her eyeballs and scrub her brain with Mr Clean*

[Stormhawk]

Angels with guns makes me twitch too.

-_- What if they're only technically angels?

[maxmordon]

The fact EVERYONE seems to hate the Dark Lord, his peasants, his guards, his mages. It leaves you wonder why the hell they wait for the Chosen One to come and don't prepare just a coup and overthrown him already when in real life no government mantains without some sort of populace support...

The Corrupt Church cliché is overdone, specially in JRPG. If there is a church that you see more than once and is not a healing point in video games, it's corrupt.

Cultures that are obviously another culture with the names crossed off when is done badly and that is obvious not liked by the author (Istanbul, not Calormene)

Why badasses in all Urban Fantasy characters have to wear a leather longcoat, is it some sort of uniform like the wizard's robes?

The mentor that either dies, is the protagonist's father or both.

[eLfwriter]

-_- What if they're only technically angels?




mmmmmm .... gotta think that one over. Technically as it they're really, really good or technically as in they just have wings or technically as in they're born of God?

Angels with guns seems only to bother me. I dunno. Something about the Arch Gabriel popping off someone with a .45 or Arch Michael with a tommy just makes my eyes go buggy. It's like the Matrix got hold of the Bible or something. (well hullo, Mr. Anderson. Are you ready for Judgment? Yea and the LORD looked down upon man as the angels unloaded a clip and a half into the hearts of sinners ...) *shiver* just gets me all twitchy thinking about it.

On the other hand, I think an Uruk-hai with a bazooka would be (unsettlingly) interesting ... so maybe my ideals are just warped.

[SPMiller]

eLfwriter, Monty Python already beat you to that with the Holy Hand Grenade.

[dclary]

Why badasses in all Urban Fantasy characters have to wear a leather longcoat, is it some sort of uniform like the wizard's robes?


Because leather longcoats are badass, man. Everyone knows that.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

Because leather longcoats are badass, man.
Except in combination with parachute pants.

But I guess that goes without saying.

[dclary]

Well, yeah. Then you need the poofy pirate shirt.

[SPMiller]

The correct combination is skin-tight leather pants plus poofy pirate shirt unbuttoned to reveal mantits.

Oh wait, that's a romance hero.

[IdiotsRUs]

The correct combination is skin-tight leather pants plus poofy pirate shirt unbuttoned to reveal mantits.

Oh wait, that's a romance hero.

Depends. How big are the tits and are they muscle tits or saggy tits?

[SPMiller]

Muscle-tits. And, of course, he's got to have a significant bulge goin' on.

[IdiotsRUs]

Shame, I was picturing Captain Sparrow...so no tits to speak of.

But with muscle tits, much sexier to just have a hint of manboob cleavage




How in Hel's knickers did we get to this?

[SPMiller]

I'm about as skinny and flat-chested as they come, and I'm fine with that.

I'm guessing it was my fault things went in this direction. And if it wasn't, I'll still take the blame.

[Dommo]

For me, I want fantasy where people are real people.

Where often times there's less of a clear line between good and evil, and the world is more of a shade of gray. Where "the holy paladin" might be a force for good, but he's also a bigoted asshole, or that the Villain might not be evil, so much as he's driven by purely utilitarian ideals. He doesn't care how he gets results, as long as he gets them.

I just find purely evil, or good characters hard to believe, because in real life most people don't really fit either mold.

[dempsey]

Depends. How big are the tits and are they muscle tits or saggy tits?

If they are saggy, then technically they are called "moobs."

http://blog.peoplenewspapers.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg

[Sarpedon]

what if they are fuller than they would be if they were solid muscle, but not yet so full that they sag? what are they called in that case?

[AMCrenshaw]

Escapism.






AMC

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

Well, yeah. Then you need the poofy pirate shirt.
That seems like way more poofiness than can be healthy. I mean, a sudden gust might hurl you into on-coming traffic or through a window or something.

[Unique]

Your pet peeves in fantasy


Names that I cannot pronounce.

If I read your MC's character's name 6 times and it's pronounced differently all 6 times - I am out of there. It makes me a little bit crazy.

But I've only thrown the book at the wall once - I swear!

Vowels are your friends. Embrace them! :tongue

I understand Gus, or Jim, or Samantha won't do but seriously I am not joking, kidding, or even exaggerating a little bit.

[Pthom]

Do pirates worry about windows or traffic?

[dclary]

Do pirates worry about windows or traffic?

Only the pirates of the Crimson Permanent Assurance.

[eLfwriter]

:roll:

man, I love it when board discussions go wonky.


Talking about parachute pants, did anyone ever wonder why Aladdin never got dragged off of Carpet?


... but I guess if he had, the parachute pants would have saved him ... so it's all good.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

Do pirates worry about windows or traffic?
In response to your quip, I was going to make a long and elaborate pun centered on the word 'pirate', pivoting on how that word could also refer to software 'pirates', who are indeed concerned with operating systems (windows) and web-traffic. But then I decided that puns are sort of lame, and instead opted for the significantly less lame option of a self-referential shaggy-dog story.

[eLfwriter]

eLfwriter, Monty Python already beat you to that with the Holy Hand Grenade.


Wait, what?? Now there are Holy Hand Grenades??? WHY!? Why was I not informed of this insanity?!


I give up. REWRITE!


... And the LORD said, "Yea, and let there be unto every Angel a newly issued taser and standard side arm, for the World hath become insane, and thou must have ammunition. The Flaming Sword of Michael hath been retired, Gabriel shall be passive messanger no more, and yonder Uriel must now guard the Gates sans spear or sword, for I the LORD hath read this board, and recognized the insanity We dost face."

And so it was that the Angels were outfitted a la Terminator, against the wishes of eLfwriter, who hath fallen to her knees and screamed the necessary "NOOOOOO!!!!" of complete defeated denial.

And then the LORD said, "Yea, and unto the pirates, I doth bequeath oversized hats with generally impossible plumes to accent the poofiness of thou yonder wardrobe."


... As for leather pirate get up (skin tight leather pants with the poofy pirate shirt) ... Looks good when you envision the yummy pirate hotties all decked out and ready to swash and buckle their way through the seven seas, right, but ... wouldn't the leather shrink? Leather shrinks in water, doesn't it? And ... isn't there usually a lot of water in a pirate's life? Just throwing that thought out there. Leather pirate clothes might be ... uncomfortable for those who um ... already had 'skin tight' pants to start with.

[SPMiller]

Wait, what?? Now there are Holy Hand Grenades??? WHY!? Why was I not informed of this insanity?!I'm surprised you haven't seen this movie...

ARTHUR: Consult the Book of Armaments!

MAYNARD: Armaments, Chapter Two, Verses Nine to Twenty-One.

BROTHER: "And Saint Atila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying,
'Oh, Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow
thy enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin, and
people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies,
and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large --"

MAYNARD: Skip a bit, Brother.

BROTHER: "And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the
Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three
shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting
shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two,
excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once
the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou
thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who being naughty
in my sight, shall snuff it.'"

MAYNARD: Amen.

[eLfwriter]

I'm surprised you haven't seen this movie...

ARTHUR: Consult the Book of Armaments!

MAYNARD: Armaments, Chapter Two, Verses Nine to Twenty-One.

BROTHER: "And Saint Atila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying,
'Oh, Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow
thy enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin, and
people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies,
and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large --"

MAYNARD: Skip a bit, Brother.

BROTHER: "And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the
Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three
shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting
shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two,
excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once
the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou
thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who being naughty
in my sight, shall snuff it.'"

MAYNARD: Amen.


:roll:

Ok, that's funny. I can accept this scenario. It's a SAINT with the grenade, right? That's ok. Saints are allowed to have ammunition, I guess.

Long live the Holy Hand Grenade.

Amen.

[Pthom]

um... seems to me that a long-lived hand grenade is tantamount to the epitome of uselessness.

[dclary]

A) No other weapon could stop a Vorpal Bunny. It had ferocious fangs!

B) This is one of the greatest lines of all time: "'Oh, Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow thy enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy."

[eLfwriter]

um... seems to me that a long-lived hand grenade is tantamount to the epitome of uselessness.



.... .... :Wha: .... ....



Point taken. Uh ... *thinking gears go into motion*


Yea and the LORD retracted his decree and decided instead, "Let the Holy Hand Grenade smite swiftly and surely the enemies of the righteous!"

Amen?



......... still seems somehow wonky to me :)

[Pthom]

Pet peeves usually are, eLfwriter, they usually are.

[eLfwriter]

Amen and snaps to that, Pthom.

[eLfwriter]

I just thought of something else as I flip between this discussion and my WIP. You know what REALLY bugs me, even more than Angels with guns?

People who think they can turn elves into potato-sack sized annoying little smidges that build toys at minimum wage. I'm all for creative liberty. Do what you like. But that just takes it too far.

*cue the long-running argument between elfy and her entire writer's group at the library. They're wrong, and I'm right, end of story.*

Power to the elves, fantasy realmites! Power to the elves!

[dclary]

I just thought of something else as I flip between this discussion and my WIP. You know what REALLY bugs me, even more than Angels with guns?

People who think they can turn elves into potato-sack sized annoying little smidges that build toys at minimum wage. I'm all for creative liberty. Do what you like. But that just takes it too far.

*cue the long-running argument between elfy and her entire writer's group at the library. They're wrong, and I'm right, end of story.*

Power to the elves, fantasy realmites! Power to the elves!
You're talking about German elves. To the rest of the world, they're known as "gnomes" or "Indonesian child labor."

[eLfwriter]

You're talking about German elves. To the rest of the world, they're known as "gnomes" or "Indonesian child labor."



Ah, yes. "Gnomes", the synonym for "Evil Minions of the Demonic Tribe of the Great and Terrible Cthulhu". Gotcha (and thanks for the fodder, dclary -- I can use that in my awesome argument against the Evil Library Writers Group who believe me to be WRONG in my suppositions that not all elves have to be pocket-portable. Gosh darn their nerve, anyway).


Don't get me started on Indonesian child labor, or we'll be here until next Christmas. It's a horrible fantasy plot line, just horrible. Predictable outcome, every time.

*rolls eyes in double sarcasm*

[dempsey]

People who think they can turn elves into potato-sack sized annoying little smidges that build toys at minimum wage. I'm all for creative liberty. Do what you like. But that just takes it too far.

Now... and correct me if I'm wrong, someone... but I thought this was the original concept of an elf, throughout the ages, and the statuesque immortals of late are, well... of late.

I could be wrong. But this is what I'm recalling.

[eLfwriter]

Do not puncture holes in my arguments, dempsey! I must fight against the evil Librarians and their evil suppositions!

... besides, the Celts believed in the Good Folke and ... and the Sidhe ... and they translate into my sort of elves, so there.


:wag:

[AceTachyon]

Ah, yes. "Gnomes", the synonym for "Evil Minions of the Demonic Tribe of the Great and Terrible Cthulhu".

I thought gnomes were friendly, rode on wolves, and sounded like Howard Cunningham.

Or are the evil ones those that live on lawns and among garden statuary.

Statuary. Isn't that what Quasimodo yells out all the time?

[eLfwriter]

meh. Gnomes are evil in my world. Maybe in some parallel universe or something, they might be good. But where I come from, they are baaaaaad. Elves = good. Yay elves!

The gnomes that live on lawns are evil, so I won't even try arguing in their favor.

[dclary]

Do not puncture holes in my arguments, dempsey! I must fight against the evil Librarians and their evil suppositions!

... besides, the Celts believed in the Good Folke and ... and the Sidhe ... and they translate into my sort of elves, so there.


:wag:
(yes, and lets not forget that irish elves were pretty much.... leprechauns)

[dempsey]

Do not puncture holes in my arguments, dempsey!

I am a champion for logic, fact, and reason :)

[Nivarion]

iz have elves in my story.

they is big ans talls. and some is evils.

sorry, the lolcatz made me do it.

[eLfwriter]

I am a champion for logic, fact, and reason :)


I gathered. Hey, if you turn to my side, you can join me in the fight against the Order of the Evil Librarians. I need an ally!

Power to the people! ... uh, I mean elves! Power to the elves!


Keep in mind that all eLfy minions get free cookies every time they fight for elven rights. (this week, after smash-a-pumpkin fest, they're pumpkin cookies. They're yuuuummy ... turn to the elf side ... insert subliminal message ...)

[eLfwriter]

(yes, and lets not forget that irish elves were pretty much.... leprechauns)



Leprechauns are cool. Elf cousins.

Only they're not as cool as elves. That goes without saying, duh.

[maxmordon]

Damn, in Spanish cultures we have Duendes. That can be from Elves to Leprechauns or Gnomes or Sprites or Poltergeist...

[IdiotsRUs]

I'll think you'll find that the elves in the Norse Sagas were reasonably statuesque :)

Although the concept itself is never clearly defined in the extant sources, the elves appear to have been conceived as powerful and beautiful human-sized beings. The myths about elves have never been recorded. Full-sized famous men could be elevated to the rank of elves after death

And of course tehre was teh human queen who found out ( too late) that the 'man' who got her preggers was an elf. Another half elf was Skuld who was nigh on invincible due to her witchcraft.

The land governed by King Alf was called Alfheim, and all his offspring are related to the elves. They were fairer than any other people...And the last king was called....Gandalf :)

However, dwarves and elves were...er..possibly related, in some accounts indistinguishable only by the fact the dwarves liked living in different places. ( dwarves only became short and ugly after Christianity poked its nose in)

There is one place there that is called the Elf Home ([I]Álfheimr). People live there that are named the light elves (Ljósálfar). But the dark elves (Dökkálfar) live below in earth, and they are unlike them in appearance – and more unlike them in reality. The Light Elves are brighter than the sun in appearance, but the Dark Elves are blacker than pitch.

Oh and Merlin was supposed to be half fairy /elf, or something.

Elves being minature anything was a much later addition.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

While it's not really a "peeve", I would love to see more fantasy books with more imaginative (or at least less anthropocentric) non-human races. I grow weary of all the human-buts: e.g. "human but immortal and prettier", "human but short and underground", "human but with wings", "human but with a fishtail instead of legs", "human but very large", "human but very small", "human but et cetera et cetera ad nauseum". That said, I don't really have a problem reading books with human-buts in them, which is why this is not a "peeve". Nonetheless, it would be nice if fantasy more often took a page from science fiction (not including Star Trek and other shows with very humanlike 'aliens') and included sentient species that are distinctly non-human (both in appearance and psychology).

[StephenJSweeney]

Orphans.

I've actually put a lot of books back on shelves recently because I'm sick of the MC (or MCs) being orphans.

[eLfwriter]

I'll think you'll find that the elves in the Norse Sagas were reasonably statuesque :)


And of course tehre was teh human queen who found out ( too late) that the 'man' who got her preggers was an elf. Another half elf was Skuld who was nigh on invincible due to her witchcraft.

The land governed by King Alf was called Alfheim, and all his offspring are related to the elves. They were fairer than any other people...And the last king was called....Gandalf :)

However, dwarves and elves were...er..possibly related, in some accounts indistinguishable only by the fact the dwarves liked living in different places. ( dwarves only became short and ugly after Christianity poked its nose in)



Oh and Merlin was supposed to be half fairy /elf, or something.

Elves being minature anything was a much later addition.




IdiotsRUs, I formally award you this week's Pumpkin Cookie of friendship and alliance! Welcome to the glorious war of eLfy vs the Evil Librarians!


You rock out loud!! Welcome to the Rebellion!


Hah, all you non-believers. I have an ally now.

Muahaha.

[dclary]

Orphans.

I've actually put a lot of books back on shelves recently because I'm sick of the MC (or MCs) being orphans.

That would kill at the very least 1/4 of every fantasy book out there, given that there are only 4 MC pure archetypes
Innocent
Orphan
Warrior
Caretaker

[dclary]

While it's not really a "peeve", I would love to see more fantasy books with more imaginative (or at least less anthropocentric) non-human races. I grow weary of all the human-buts: e.g. "human but immortal and prettier", "human but short and underground", "human but with wings", "human but with a fishtail instead of legs", "human but very large", "human but very small", "human but et cetera et cetera ad nauseum". That said, I don't really have a problem reading books with human-buts in them, which is why this is not a "peeve". Nonetheless, it would be nice if fantasy more often took a page from science fiction (not including Star Trek and other shows with very humanlike 'aliens') and included sentient species that are distinctly non-human (both in appearance and psychology).

Well, remember that Star Trek and other shows do that because it's a hell of a lot cheaper to paint an actor blue than to CGI an multi-tentacled blobuloid.

So there you go. Sci Fi writers are cheap. Fantasy writers are just lazy.

:ROFL:

[Elwolf]

This is not really a "peeve" either, but I just think that some endings in books that end with the MC dying and then being brought back somehow so that their best friend or girlfriend/boyfriend can still be with them is sort of wierd. I mean, it is still a good ending and I have no problem with it, but I have read quite a few books and series like that and they are sort of getting kind of boring.

[Stormhawk]

mmmmmm .... gotta think that one over. Technically as it they're really, really good or technically as in they just have wings or technically as in they're born of God?

Angels with guns seems only to bother me. I dunno. Something about the Arch Gabriel popping off someone with a .45 or Arch Michael with a tommy just makes my eyes go buggy. It's like the Matrix got hold of the Bible or something. (well hullo, Mr. Anderson. Are you ready for Judgment? Yea and the LORD looked down upon man as the angels unloaded a clip and a half into the hearts of sinners ...) *shiver* just gets me all twitchy thinking about it.

Technically, as in they're the proxies of the gods (who are too lazy/apathetic to keep order themselves). So, yeah, once they had dresses, wings and swords, but then that form didn't fit any more, so they became something different (evolving into secret societies, ronin, whatever made them most effective in the time period), and finally...yeah, guys in suits with guns. >_>

(Though, because they aren't skydaddy's angels, there's no bible-quoting, or treating people as sinners, etc, etc).


That would kill at the very least 1/4 of every fantasy book out there, given that there are only 4 MC pure archetypes
Innocent
Orphan
Warrior
Caretaker
Mine's an orphan, but I didn't set out to make her trope-ish - her mother is dead, yes, but her father isn't - he legally disowned her.


This is not really a "peeve" either, but I just think that some endings in books that end with the MC dying and then being brought back somehow so that their best friend or girlfriend/boyfriend can still be with them is sort of wierd. I mean, it is still a good ending and I have no problem with it, but I have read quite a few books and series like that and they are sort of getting kind of boring.
Again, guilty - but I spent 50,000 words bringing her back to life (so it wasn't like someone waved a magic wand), and the ramifications of it are huge. (And, whilst dead, she also thought she'd gone [more] insane).

[Anares]

I hate it when the author feels the need to have a running commentary on what everyones wearing as they walk into the room and how low their neckline is or how their arms are crossed below their boobs *glares at Jordan* I love jordans early WOT work but after a while he just rambled and i've found that a lot of acclaimed fantasy authors feel the need to describe what everyones wearing. the only other genre that really does this is harlequine romance and thats because its a just beyond naught book that depends on pirates wearing fluttery shirts and tight leather pants. but this discriptiveness has no use in fantasy. and for that matter when there are pages and pages of information to read through. I'm all for filling in a reader when they pick up the second book in a series by accident but frankly if you can't write it as a standalone then theres no use in writing the book blarga blarga rabble rabble.

I do agree with this, though it's also nice to know what the character is wearing from day to day if they change wardrobes or if its important. Or, if you're working with a non-human race. Cool descriptors dropped here or there can help remind the reader that hey, these things aren't human...might act like it, but they aren't.

No granted, there are some books that go FAR too much into detail about exactly what the person is wearing, how many buttons are on the shirt, which direction the shoes are laced, etc. OMG, come on and please for the love of literature, let the reader imagine a little.

[Anares]

Do pirates worry about windows or traffic?

I'll be space pirates do. Won't want to get sucked out a window into the vaccuum of space (read Aliens 4 I think it was where the mutant queen was sucked through the window)

[AceTachyon]

Do pirates worry about windows or traffic?
What about dogs in space? Do we need to worry about them sticking their heads out of the window and either burning up on re-entry or getting sucked out?

[AceTachyon]

I'll be space pirates do. Won't want to get sucked out a window into the vaccuum of space (read Aliens 4 I think it was where the mutant queen was sucked through the window)
Unless, of course, their space galleons are protected by a handwavium force shield...

[Anares]

While it's not really a "peeve", I would love to see more fantasy books with more imaginative (or at least less anthropocentric) non-human races. I grow weary of all the human-buts: e.g. "human but immortal and prettier", "human but short and underground", "human but with wings", "human but with a fishtail instead of legs", "human but very large", "human but very small", "human but et cetera et cetera ad nauseum". That said, I don't really have a problem reading books with human-buts in them, which is why this is not a "peeve". Nonetheless, it would be nice if fantasy more often took a page from science fiction (not including Star Trek and other shows with very humanlike 'aliens') and included sentient species that are distinctly non-human (both in appearance and psychology).

I hear you there. Actually, I find it hard to write about humans. It's simple to write what is easily known and avaialble to look at, but where's the challenge in that? Once you figure out how to describe what your characters are (never understimate the power of cover art) it becomes a lot easier. Though trying to figure out how to explain them, especially when you suck as an artist, can make it difficult.

[dclary]

What about dogs in space? Do we need to worry about them sticking their heads out of the window and either burning up on re-entry or getting sucked out?

This is why the ancient astronauts traveled with chihuahuas. The vaccuum between their ears balanced against the vaccuum of space, and kept them quite safe when they wanted to feel the breeze of the solar winds.

[Pthom]

What about dogs in space? Do we need to worry about them sticking their heads out of the window and either burning up on re-entry or getting sucked out?
Can't have dogs hanging their heads out the window. Besides the fact they would suffocate nearly instantaneously, dog slobber ruins the ether-dynamics of the hull.

'course, if you had two dogs, one on either side, things'd balance out and ...

[dclary]

Can't have dogs hanging their heads out the window. Besides the fact they would suffocate nearly instantaneously, dog slobber ruins the ether-dynamics of the hull.

'course, if you had two dogs, one on either side, things'd balance out and ...

Hey you two.. Take this to the "realistic pet depictions in space" thread! this is a fantasy thread!!!

[Rabe]

Oh, one last thing that's always got me is a vampyre with a gun. I don't know what it is about that picture, but it just sort of bothers me for some reason. Angels with guns makes me twitch too. Anyone seen the relatively new movie Gabriel? hmmmmmmm.... arch with a gun ... several guns ...


Ah...then...you won't like my Eagle Ridge series. Main character finds out that he is - indeed - an angel. Mainly because he is the product of angels.

Except, we're not talking the biblical angel or even the popular conception of modern biblical angel. Not even mythological angel. Except for a smattering of concepts.

My main character doesn't have wings. Most of the time. He does use a gun - because he's the resident deputy of the town. A rather strange town. With lots of rather strange individuals. Individuals who had enough power and clout to get this deputy to their town as their protector angel. Of course, by the beginning of the fourth book (I'm trying to write them all as stand alones) he has eschewed his angelic side and vows not to use it.

Rabe...

[Sarpedon]

You know, I've actually been thinking about the pets in space thing. Heinlien had a good (short) book called Waldo, where in the title character not only attached his name to a glove with sensors in it, but also had two space dogs.

I think the biggest challenge with space dogs and space cat would be training them to use the facilities properly. Dogs being smarter and more trainable could probably be made to do it, and the cat's instincts for covering up its filth may be put to use...but how?

And your space fish would have a lot of problems, because I think some amount of gravity is necessary for the delicate balance of bouyancy in the fish's swim bladder...though there are fish without such a swim bladder, I wonder if they would function better.

Space gerbils and space guinea pigs just wouldn't work...too dumb to teach to use any kind of hygenic facility.

And space birds: The horror. If they got out of their cages, you could never catch them. They could function in a 3d environment and propell themselves much better than a human could. And they'd shit everywhere. And if they were parrots, they would mock you.

[AceTachyon]

Hey you two.. Take this to the "realistic pet depictions in space" thread! this is a fantasy thread!!!
Ah, but Pthom and I were referring to talking dogs in space.

With wings.

[AceTachyon]

You know, I've actually been thinking about the pets in space thing. Heinlien had a good (short) book called Waldo, where in the title character not only attached his name to a glove with sensors in it, but also had two space dogs.

I think the biggest challenge with space dogs and space cat would be training them to use the facilities properly. Dogs being smarter and more trainable could probably be made to do it, and the cat's instincts for covering up its filth may be put to use...but how?

Space cat = Lord Pixel. Also Heinlein.

See The Cat Who Walks Through Walls.

Oh...but this is fantasy.

Ergo...Glory Road.

[IdiotsRUs]

OK this cropped up in another forum, but it is a big peeve of mine.

Series where book one is basically nothing but a prologue / setup for the rest of the series. There is no real story arc in that book, no resolution at the end, just a huge sense of anticlimax when you realise that there will only be one resolution, and it's five books away.

I want to start a petition for more series where each book has its own story arc / resolution ( ie the book wraps ups at least one story element, even if there is an overarching theme to the series) and isn't just a truncated part of a long whole, as well as more series where each book is stand alone.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

OK this cropped up in another forum, but it is a big peeve of mine.

Series where book one is basically nothing but a prologue / setup for the rest of the series. There is no real story arc in that book, no resolution at the end, just a huge sense of anticlimax when you realise that there will only be one resolution, and it's five books away.

I want to start a petition for more series where each book has its own story arc / resolution ( ie the book wraps ups at least one story element, even if there is an overarching theme to the series) and isn't just a truncated part of a long whole, as well as more series where each book is stand alone.


I agree that it would be nice to have more series books with their own complete story arcs, but I'm not sure you could call a group of standalones a "series". They're just multiple books with the same setting(and possibly characters, and er... but, anyway...).

[dclary]

OK this cropped up in another forum, but it is a big peeve of mine.

Series where book one is basically nothing but a prologue / setup for the rest of the series. There is no real story arc in that book, no resolution at the end, just a huge sense of anticlimax when you realise that there will only be one resolution, and it's five books away.

I want to start a petition for more series where each book has its own story arc / resolution ( ie the book wraps ups at least one story element, even if there is an overarching theme to the series) and isn't just a truncated part of a long whole, as well as more series where each book is stand alone.


You mean like the Golden Compass?

[dclary]

I agree that it would be nice to have more series books with their own complete story arcs, but I'm not sure you could call a group of standalones a "series". They're just multiple books with the same setting(and possibly characters, and er... but, anyway...).

Right. Who would want to read a series of fantasy books, instead of a Heptology?

No one would read stand-alone books with just the same character, would they?

Live and Let Die
Moonraker
Casino Royale
In Her Majesty's Secret Service.


Conan the Barbarian
Conan the Destroyer
Conan the Writer-on-Walls-With-Crayons

Tarzan, Lord of the Apes
Tarzan, Lord of the Serengetti
Tarzan, Lord of the Dance

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Right. Who would want to read a series of fantasy books, instead of a Heptology?

No one would read stand-alone books with just the same character, would they?

Live and Let Die
Moonraker
Casino Royale
In Her Majesty's Secret Service.


Conan the Barbarian
Conan the Destroyer
Conan the Writer-on-Walls-With-Crayons

Tarzan, Lord of the Apes
Tarzan, Lord of the Serengetti
Tarzan, Lord of the Dance


Okay, first: Yes, I'll admit I made my point badly... or else I'm just plain wrong; I'll have to think about it.

Second, you completely misunderstood anyway. I never made any mention of heptologies being better or even necessarily good, nor did I say anything about not liking or thinking people don't/wouldn't like related stand-alone stories. The comment you quoted was entirely an issue of semantics.

[IdiotsRUs]

but I'm not sure you could call a group of standalones a "series".

Well that is what they are commonly called in the publishing world. :)

You mean like the Golden Compass?

As I completely failed to read it, I couldn't comment

[Atani]

While it's not really a "peeve", I would love to see more fantasy books with more imaginative (or at least less anthropocentric) non-human races. I grow weary of all the human-buts: e.g. "human but immortal and prettier", "human but short and underground", "human but with wings", "human but with a fishtail instead of legs", "human but very large", "human but very small", "human but et cetera et cetera ad nauseum". That said, I don't really have a problem reading books with human-buts in them, which is why this is not a "peeve". Nonetheless, it would be nice if fantasy more often took a page from science fiction (not including Star Trek and other shows with very humanlike 'aliens') and included sentient species that are distinctly non-human (both in appearance and psychology).


I share your feeling entirely.

I can't tell you how long I have spent trying to come up with a creative non-human race that could communicate with and act as allies to my human-like race...and I'm still working on it! So far I have animal races working with the MCs, but they don't talk or in any other way act "human."

Boy, being creative is hard :(

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Well that is what they are commonly called in the publishing world. :)

Yeah, I'm aware. I got my overly-analyzed definitions backward, sorry... Happens a lot. Single storyline trilogies, duologies, tetrologies, etc are often referred to as "series" when really, they're just one story, and the groups of "standalones" are the real series. So I was disagreeing with you and myself. lol

[AceTachyon]

Conan the Barbarian
Conan the Destroyer
Conan the Writer-on-Walls-With-Crayons

Don't forget Conan the Libertarian.

Just a minor point, though, Deek--the Conan stories were shorts/novelettes/novellas first, at least as written by R.E.H. And there weren't that many.

The novels (and additional short stories/novellas/novelettes) were done by others.

I think there was really only one R.E.H.-penned Conan novel.

(Any Conan scholars out there are free to correct me).

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

Don't forget Conan the Libertarian.

...and the time-travel adventure epic, Conan the DeLorean.

[AceTachyon]

While it's not really a "peeve", I would love to see more fantasy books with more imaginative (or at least less anthropocentric) non-human races.
You haven't forgotten Bazil Broketail, In the Company of Ogres, the Jig the Goblin series (by our own Jim C. Hines), Dickson's Hoka books and The Dragon and the George (and the others that followed), and maybe even Brian Jacques Redwall books, have you?

Do those count?

[AceTachyon]

...and the time-travel adventure epic, Conan the DeLorean.

And the prequel, Conan the Victorian.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

You haven't forgotten Bazil Broketail, In the Company of Ogres, the Jig the Goblin series (by our own Jim C. Hines), Dickson's Hoka books and The Dragon and the George (and the others that followed), and maybe even Brian Jacques Redwall books, have you?

Do those count?
I have read Basil Broketail and The Dragon and the George, but it has been so long that I cannot remember them very well. The Redwall characters are basically human in terms of psychology, so they don't really count in my book (they are "human but cute animals in form"). The example I am thinking of that illustrates my desire is in fact a science fiction series -- the Chanur novels, by C.J. Cheryh. They deal only tangentally with humans, and the various alien species all have very believably different psychologies and cultures.

[AceTachyon]

I have read Basil Broketail and The Dragon and the George, but it has been so long that I cannot remember them very well. The Redwall characters are basically human in terms of psychology, so they don't really count in my book (they are "human but cute animals in form"). The example I am thinking of that illustrates my desire is in fact a science fiction series -- the Chanur novels, by C.J. Cheryh. They deal only tangentally with humans, and the various alien species all have very believably different psychologies and cultures.
Ah, yes. The Chanur series. Excellent books.

David Drake had a short about goblin paratroopers.

But fantasy equivalent of the Chanur series? I haven't run across one yet.

[dclary]

Don't forget Conan the Libertarian.

Just a minor point, though, Deek--the Conan stories were shorts/novelettes/novellas first, at least as written by R.E.H. And there weren't that many.

The novels (and additional short stories/novellas/novelettes) were done by others.

I think there was really only one R.E.H.-penned Conan novel.

(Any Conan scholars out there are free to correct me).

I know. But my point is, the average reader is going to look at the conan books and consider them a "series." -- They may not be serial in nature, but that's what I'm trying to say. They don't need to be.

[dclary]

As I completely failed to read it, I couldn't comment


I didn't read it either, but I went to see the movie, because the idea of a Coca-Cola Polar bear getting a job as a Merc during the non-holiday season really appealed to me.

And then, as the movie wrapped up, and absolutely nothing had been resolved, I was all WTF?!?!?!?


Of course, my mother was the same way with FotR. Sam and Frodo gaze out over the rocky expanse leading toward Mordor, and my mother STANDS UP IN THE THEATER and shouts "That's IT? Where's the REST?!?!"

[AceTachyon]

I know. But my point is, the average reader is going to look at the conan books and consider them a "series." -- They may not be serial in nature, but that's what I'm trying to say. They don't need to be.
Point taken.

Much like the Mack Bolan/Executioner novels.

[IdiotsRUs]

Of course, my mother was the same way with FotR. Sam and Frodo gaze out over the rocky expanse leading toward Mordor, and my mother STANDS UP IN THE THEATER and shouts "That's IT? Where's the REST?!?!"

Ah but it answers the story question doesn't it? Or ONE story question at least. Will Frodo get to Rivendell alive? That's kinda what I meant by wrapping up one part of the story while still allowing more things can happen - there is some resolution, although the overarching theme still hangs in the balance. ETA: cos I'm a chump and was thinking about the end of the first part of the book ( yeah I'm an Idiot, sue me) Of course it also answered the question of will Borormir take the ring etc. What can I say? I haven't had my first beer yet

Mind you , it's still a bummer way to end :)

BUt I've read several books where not even that is done. NONE of the story questions get answered, so I don't bother reading the next book, in case the same happens again.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

I didn't read it either, but I went to see the movie, because the idea of a Coca-Cola Polar bear getting a job as a Merc during the non-holiday season really appealed to me.

And then, as the movie wrapped up, and absolutely nothing had been resolved, I was all WTF?!?!?!?

The book actually leaves it in a rather more interesting --and scary-- place than the movie.

[dclary]

Point taken.

Much like the Mack Bolan/Executioner novels. Exactly.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

Ah but it answers the story question doesn't it? Or ONE story question at least. Will Frodo get to Rivendell alive? That's kinda what I meant by wrapping up one part of the story while still allowing more things can happen - there is some resolution, although the overarching theme still hangs in the balance.

The movie ended with important and momentous character decisions -- starting with Boromir's fateful attempt on the ring and his redemptive decision to fight the orcs, the decision of Frodo to break from the rest of the Fellowship, Sam's decision to go with him into Mordor, and Aragorn's decision to let Frodo go and chase after the orcs who had taken Merry and Pippin. In other words, the movie didn't just peter out after a designated amount of time, it ends with some important turning points that will propel the story in the next installment. It is possible there was a better way to end the first movie, but there are many more worse ways to end it. For example, imagine if the movie had simply ended with them leaving Lorien in the boats...

[maxmordon]

Right. Who would want to read a series of fantasy books, instead of a Heptology?

No one would read stand-alone books with just the same character, would they?

Live and Let Die
Moonraker
Casino Royale
In Her Majesty's Secret Service.


Conan the Barbarian
Conan the Destroyer
Conan the Writer-on-Walls-With-Crayons

Tarzan, Lord of the Apes
Tarzan, Lord of the Serengetti
Tarzan, Lord of the Dance

No mention of the thirty-something Discworld books?

[maxmordon]

I didn't read it either, but I went to see the movie, because the idea of a Coca-Cola Polar bear getting a job as a Merc during the non-holiday season really appealed to me.

And then, as the movie wrapped up, and absolutely nothing had been resolved, I was all WTF?!?!?!?


Of course, my mother was the same way with FotR. Sam and Frodo gaze out over the rocky expanse leading toward Mordor, and my mother STANDS UP IN THE THEATER and shouts "That's IT? Where's the REST?!?!"

My stepfather considered that Sam is the real hero of the movie; if it was up to him, they would have killed Gollum as soon as they saw him and we would only have two movies.

[dclary]

I greatly missed the scouring of the shire from the movie, although it clearly couldn't fit, but that would have been a distinctly awesome moment in the film, when, upon finding the shire under control of sharky's men, the "Elven Hero of Mordor" (Sam) and his two hobbity friends, in the mail of the Rohirrim and the armor of the Citadel Guard took all they'd learned about war and responsibility and led the hobbits to victory.


I probably should have tried to stretch all that out over more than one sentence.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

My stepfather considered that Sam is the real hero of the movie; if it was up to him, they would have killed Gollum as soon as they saw him and we would only have two movies.
And Sauron would have won, either when Sam and Frodo stupidly tried to enter Morder via the Black Gate (and Gollum stopped them), or when Frodo turned bad and decided to keep the ring (and Gollum inadvertently destroyed the ring by trying to take it). There is also the possibility that killing Gollum would have morally stained Frodo and enabled the ring to take control of him even sooner.

[dclary]

And Sauron would have won, either when Sam and Frodo stupidly tried to enter Morder via the Black Gate (and Gollum stopped them), or when Frodo turned bad and decided to keep the ring (and Gollum inadvertently destroyed the ring by trying to take it). There is also the possibility that killing Gollum would have morally stained Frodo and enabled the ring to take control of him even sooner.

Something Gandalf foreshadowed in Moria, when he and Frodo discussed it.

[maxmordon]

Anybody have thought Lord Of The Rings would be an amazing opera?

[AceTachyon]

Anybody have thought Lord Of The Rings would be an amazing opera?
Stage musical, yes.

http://www.cinematical.com/2006/03/25/lord-of-the-rings-musical-unleashed/

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/thearts/2004286973_lord17.html

Not so hot, though.

[Atani]

Didn't they do a musical of LOTR? I heard rumors a long time ago, but never followed up on it.


I agree that the movies were hard for a lot of people to enjoy if they had not read the book(s). Such a long wait in between was frustrating. However, it's hard for me to judge LOTR as a series since it was written as a single book.

[Atani]

Oh sorry, took too long to write my post! Never mind.

[dclary]

Didn't they do a musical of LOTR? I heard rumors a long time ago, but never followed up on it.


I agree that the movies were hard for a lot of people to enjoy if they had not read the book(s). Such a long wait in between was frustrating. However, it's hard for me to judge LOTR as a series since it was written as a single book.

That's ok. I view the three movies as an 11-hour single film with 5 breaks.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

That's ok. I view the three movies as an 11-hour single film with 5 breaks.
Let me guess -- the breaks are those handfuls of seconds when you have to switch out the DVDs...

[maxmordon]

Seems that it wasn't good...

I was thinking on something more... Wagner... or perhaps Orff...

[maxmordon]

That's ok. I view the three movies as an 11-hour single film with 5 breaks.

DVD extended version? I did the same thing!!!

[Atani]

That's ok. I view the three movies as an 11-hour single film with 5 breaks.

I do that too, especially on days with bad weather. I have a friend who has LOTR parties celebrated with all the meals and Hobbit refreshments :) Lots of fun for us nerds!

[Izunya]

You know, I've actually been thinking about the pets in space thing. Heinlien had a good (short) book called Waldo, where in the title character not only attached his name to a glove with sensors in it, but also had two space dogs.

I think the biggest challenge with space dogs and space cat would be training them to use the facilities properly. Dogs being smarter and more trainable could probably be made to do it, and the cat's instincts for covering up its filth may be put to use...but how?

There are some cats who learn to use a human toilet. I wonder if they could be taught to use a space toilet. The hitch, of course, is that in most of the cases I've heard about, no-one actually trained the cat to do it. She just started on his own.

I actually suspect that cats would adjust better to space because they have claws. All you need to do is put some sort of cloth on the walls and they could get around with a sort of freefall climbing. Give a dog a wall, and he can start moving, all right---the problem will be stopping. Astronauts grab onto handles when they need to stop, right? But dogs can only grab onto things with their mouths. Besides, indoor cats can be pretty well adjusted (with the usual caveat that cats are, by definition, quite insane) but indoor dogs?

And your space fish would have a lot of problems, because I think some amount of gravity is necessary for the delicate balance of bouyancy in the fish's swim bladder...though there are fish without such a swim bladder, I wonder if they would function better.

I seem to recall a study, actually, that said that goldfish were okay (short term, at least) so long as they had a clear light source to tell them where "up" was. Light them from all sides and they apparently died of confusion. That being said, setting up a fishtank involves a lot of hardware and a fair amount of expenditure here on Earth. I suspect a fishtank in space would present engineering problems I haven't even thought of.

Space gerbils and space guinea pigs just wouldn't work...too dumb to teach to use any kind of hygenic facility.

Not that they use a litterbox or anything on Earth, either. You just clean out their cages regularly. However, that chore would be vastly worse in space, and I suspect that zero-g would disorient them to the point of breakdown.

You didn't mention ferrets, but I think they're also a no-go. There's not only the litter-box issue, there's the fact that ferrets can and will go in any hole they find, even the ones that are absolutely positively too small for a ferret to possibly fit into. Here on Earth, a ferret in the ventilation ducts is a nuisance; sooner or later he'll get hungry and follow his nose to an exit. In space . . .

I suspect you'd have all the same problems with rats, even though (from what I hear) they're a bit brighter than guinea pigs.

And space birds: The horror. If they got out of their cages, you could never catch them. They could function in a 3d environment and propell themselves much better than a human could. And they'd shit everywhere. And if they were parrots, they would mock you.

Actually, aside from the shitting everywhere, I suspect birds might do all right---if you picked the right birds. You'd have to hand-raise them, of course, so they'd be willing to trust humans and come when you offer food. (Even on Earth, it's not exactly a cinch to corral a bird that doesn't want to be caught. The key is giving it a good, consistent reason to come back to you. As with most animals, treats are probably on the top of the list.) Parrots and macaws might work; they're bright and they can develop real friendships with people. Of course, you'd have to keep them out of sensitive areas, because they would pry all the keys off your control panels or try to help you type.

Most of your rarer pets have one problem or another: pigs are totally unsuited for freefall, sugar gliders traded their brain-space for big eyes and extra cuteness, etc. Still, I wonder if iguanas would work out. They come with climbing instincts and they're reasonably laid-back. Requires an awful lot of equipment (heating lamps and such) to keep one, though.

Ultimately, I suspect the question is moot. If we do have people living in space for long periods we're either going to have to medicate them to prevent bone problems or we're going to have to build a big wheel and spin it for pseudo-gravity. As far as I know, we don't have any medications that would do the trick, but we do know how to build a space station.

Izunya (proudly derailing threads since 1996)

[maxmordon]

Anybody has seen The American Astronaut? Is pretty much a Firefly music with Flash Gordon Serials props.

Anyway, the found the answer for a Space Cat... that is a cage.

[SPMiller]

Max, that movie is weird.

What did your father teach you? What did your father teach you? What did your father teach you? What did your father teach you?

[maxmordon]

My father taught me to kill the sunflower.

:D I know is weird, but I adore weird movies...

[SPMiller]

Congratulations, Max. You are now awake.

[dclary]

I do that too, especially on days with bad weather. I have a friend who has LOTR parties celebrated with all the meals and Hobbit refreshments :) Lots of fun for us nerds!

Peter Jackson says he has about an hour of additional footage he wants to put into a super-duper anniversary edition or something.

I say he goes balls-to-the-wall and puts out a "The Lord of the Rings Definitive Edition" Which has all three films edited (essentially you just strip opening credits from 2 + 3 and closing credits from 1 + 2) into a single film.

[Atani]

Peter Jackson says he has about an hour of additional footage he wants to put into a super-duper anniversary edition or something.

I say he goes balls-to-the-wall and puts out a "The Lord of the Rings Definitive Edition" Which has all three films edited (essentially you just strip opening credits from 2 + 3 and closing credits from 1 + 2) into a single film.


Well that would be cool... but damn, I already bought the theatrical versions and then the extended versions. How much of my money do they need!?

[Sarpedon]

You didn't mention ferrets, but I think they're also a no-go. There's not only the litter-box issue, there's the fact that ferrets can and will go in any hole they find, even the ones that are absolutely positively too small for a ferret to possibly fit into. Here on Earth, a ferret in the ventilation ducts is a nuisance; sooner or later he'll get hungry and follow his nose to an exit. In space . . .


But a ferret would look absolutely adorable in an astronaut outfit

(waits...)

[dclary]

Well that would be cool... but damn, I already bought the theatrical versions and then the extended versions. How much of my money do they need!?

Well, if you're like me, you only have them on DVD... Get this set on Blu-Ray.

Plus, when they complete the two Hobbit films in the next several years, you're assured of some sort of super-bundle 5-movie set.

[SPMiller]

Two Hobbit films? I can't possibly see how they could split the story in half.

[AceTachyon]

Two Hobbit films? I can't possibly see how they could split the story in half.
Hobbiton and the appearance of the dwarves to escape from the goblins as the first film.

Rescue by the eagles to Smaug to the Battle of Five Armies to the end for the second.

[dclary]

I agree completely SP... I honestly don't see how this could be 2 films.

However, he said what he wanted to do was make a "bridge" film to tie the hobbit story to the Fellowship.

So I'm wondering if they're going to build something that's outside of established canon, but could be considered canonical -- this would include Gandalf's mission to oust the Necromancer, told in flashback, Legolas and the elves of Mirkwood hunting and capturing Smeagol, Aragorn's people protecting the Shire from outside threat, the story of how Frodo came to live with Bilbo... The Hobbit movie could easily end at the Lonely Mountain, and all the bruhaha of him having to get back his estate on Bag End could be in the second film.

So there's enough snippets there to make something, I just don't see how it could be grand enough or spectacular enough to be the final film made in the franchise.

[efreysson]

I thought of another pet peeve of mine: Warrior women in bathing suits made from metal or leather.

I mean, for Satan's sake! Aside from being completely juvenile and ridiculous ("please mister bad guy, don't aim for my bare midriff!"), I feel downright insulted whenever I see one of these, since apparently someone thinks nekkid ladies are the only reliable way to get me to invest in a lengthy fantasy series/game/movie. "Hey dummy, look: Boobies! Give us money now!" Aside from that, I also feel that these kinds of characters are indicative of just how seriously the makers took their project, and that I really shouldn't bother.

[dclary]

I thought of another pet peeve of mine: Warrior women in bathing suits made from metal or leather.

I mean, for Satan's sake! Aside from being completely juvenile and ridiculous ("please mister bad guy, don't aim for my bare midriff!"), I feel downright insulted whenever I see one of these, since apparently someone thinks nekkid ladies are the only reliable way to get me to invest in a lengthy fantasy series/game/movie. "Hey dummy, look: Boobies! Give us money now!" Aside from that, I also feel that these kinds of characters are indicative of just how seriously the makers took their project, and that I really shouldn't bother.


I play "Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic" with all of my characters female and unarmored, because swear-to-god, there is nothing awesomer than three hot chicks in bikini underwear slaying everything in sight with lightsabers. If Lucas had made a movie called "Bikini Chicks With Lightsabers" he would have made the highest grossing film of all time.

So, I'm not too upset by THIS peeve. :D

[efreysson]

I play "Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic" with all of my characters female and unarmored, because swear-to-god, there is nothing awesomer than three hot chicks in bikini underwear slaying everything in sight with lightsabers. If Lucas had made a movie called "Bikini Chicks With Lightsabers" he would have made the highest grossing film of all time.

So, I'm not too upset by THIS peeve. :D

Well, Juhani, Bastila and FemRev have superpowers, so that's somewhat more forgivable. :)

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

I thought of another pet peeve of mine: Warrior women in bathing suits made from metal or leather.

I mean, for Satan's sake! Aside from being completely juvenile and ridiculous ("please mister bad guy, don't aim for my bare midriff!"),
You mistake their purpose. They are not designed to guard against swords and arrows, but rather against the dreaded boob-punch.

[dclary]

Well, Juhani, Bastila and FemRev have superpowers, so that's somewhat more forgivable. :)

You know it!

I was so disappointed that KoToR 2 put them all in those unsexy unitards.

[efreysson]

You know it!

I was so disappointed that KoToR 2 put them all in those unsexy unitards.

I was disappointed in K2 in it's entirety.

But let's not completely derail the thread.

[dclary]

I was disappointed in K2 in it's entirety.

But let's not completely derail the thread.

(its)

[eLfwriter]

That's ok. I view the three movies as an 11-hour single film with 5 breaks.



O ... M ... G!!

I thought I was the only one who did that! I'm so glad I'm not alone in the world.


My friends usually give up around the time the Ents take over Isenguard. Pansies. They opt for sleep over LotR.



Oh, I just thought of yet another pet peeve. I'm sort of a book collecter (duh, aren't we all?), and I get a little nutty when I start buying a series, only to find out that there is going to be book 'five' tagged onto the end of the quartet.

It's worse when they change the size/shape/color scheme/print scheme of the 'book five' of the 'quartet' I'm in the process of collecting. I hate it when I finally get my hands on 'book five' only to find out that it'll stand two inches higher than the other four books, it's got different cover art, and the print setting is different.

I like my book sets to match. Is that too much to ask?

[AceTachyon]

Oh, I just thought of yet another pet peeve. I'm sort of a book collecter (duh, aren't we all?), and I get a little nutty when I start buying a series, only to find out that there is going to be book 'five' tagged onto the end of the quartet.

It's worse when they change the size/shape/color scheme/print scheme of the 'book five' of the 'quartet' I'm in the process of collecting. I hate it when I finally get my hands on 'book five' only to find out that it'll stand two inches higher than the other four books, it's got different cover art, and the print setting is different.

I like my book sets to match. Is that too much to ask?
No, it's not.

They did that with the Dresden Files and with Martin's series about the Knights who say "f**k."

[Pthom]

All my Dresden Files books are similar--size wise. There are minor changes in cover design--to be expected when the publication of a series spans several years.

[Clippership]

Kind of off topic a little, but a company in the UK is making a prequel to even the two new Hobbit movies about Aragorn's parents. It's called Born of Hope. You can find out more about it at www.theonering.net It's basically fan fiction but they're doing a good job making the costumes, actors, and scenery fit in with the rest of the LOTR films.

[Clippership]

I thought of a fantasy pet peeve. Red heads. They're a dwindling hair faction in real life so everyone over uses them in their writing. A dime a dozen.

[kuwisdelu]

I thought of a fantasy pet peeve. Red heads. They're a dwindling hair faction in real life so everyone over uses them in their writing. A dime a dozen.

Do we get a free pass if we're dating one and our fantastical writing tends to be overly influenced by real life?

[Oddsocks]

I thought of a fantasy pet peeve. Red heads. They're a dwindling hair faction in real life so everyone over uses them in their writing. A dime a dozen.
I don't have a problem with this so long as it makes sense. One out-of-place red head can be annoying if you can be bothered being annoyed by a hair colour, but if it's built into the world - a race that's mostly red heads or something like that - then I have no issue with it at all. It may be seen as a bit of a cliche, but it's perfectly possible, and if it's ok for the majority of fantasies to have magic or medieval technology when these are arguably cliches, then red hair is probably ok too.

[Zoombie]

I thought of a fantasy pet peeve. Red heads. They're a dwindling hair faction in real life so everyone over uses them in their writing. A dime a dozen.

But but but but but...redheads are sexy!

Also, what if your world just naturally has a lot of redheads?

[SPMiller]

Just because you can easily justify using redheads in fantasy doesn't mean somebody can't have redheads as a pet peeve :)

You know what you don't see very often? Fantasy novels with zero white people.

[Clippership]

I come from a family with a fair ration of redheads (I'm not among them unless you count highlights). It's not so much having a red head in a fantasy novel as the fact that they are typically treated as special because of the red hair. Small pet peeve, I know. There have been better ones posted previously. =)

I agree with SPMiller -- a fantasy novel with zero white people would be fantastic. Why aren't there more of those?

[Queen of Swords]

I wrote a story where the main character was a redhead because that was the most common hair color in her land. At least half the population had red hair.

[Ciera_]

My biggest, most general pet peeve?
Crappy titles.
They're everywhere! I can't expect a book to be any good when the title is A) exactly like every other title in the bookstore or B) just plain dumb!
I have a list of title no-noes a mile long, but I'll break it down to save time (mine and all of yours)
-Celestial bodies
- The formats of:
The <adjective> <noun>,
The <noun> of <noun>,
<'Original' name (one that's essentially a combination of random letters, the more vowels and 'z's the better)>'s <noun>
Or anything with a number, especially:
The <number> <noun>s
-'Original' names, like mentioned above, in the title at all. That applies to names of places, as well.
-Anything with 'sword', 'heart', 'destiny', 'death'...this is where the list becomes really, really long.
I just really don't like cliche titles (Twilight utterly included, though I'm happy I was able to get past it), because to me, a title is supposed to say something about the book. Twilight is mentioned a couple of times in the book, but not as an overall theme. If anything, they should have called it 'Noon' or 'Mid-afternoon', but of course those don't sound good. It seems to be more important to make titles sound romantic and dramatic and pretty than to actually have any meaning.

[SPMiller]

Unfortunately, high fantasy titles (like high fantasy cover art in general) are designed to signal certain things to their audience/market. They're all going to sound the same. It's a marketing ploy.

Other forms of fantasy aren't immune. Consider the proliferation of female protagonists with naked backs and/or tattoos in urban fantasy. And you can expect to see something like Dead or Blood or whatever in the title.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

My biggest, most general pet peeve?
Crappy titles.
They're everywhere! I can't expect a book to be any good when the title is A) exactly like every other title in the bookstore or B) just plain dumb!
I have a list of title no-noes a mile long, but I'll break it down to save time (mine and all of yours)
-Celestial bodies
- The formats of:
The <adjective> <noun>,
The <noun> of <noun>,
<'Original' name (one that's essentially a combination of random letters, the more vowels and 'z's the better)>'s <noun>
Or anything with a number, especially:
The <number> <noun>s
-'Original' names, like mentioned above, in the title at all. That applies to names of places, as well.
-Anything with 'sword', 'heart', 'destiny', 'death'...this is where the list becomes really, really long.
I just really don't like cliche titles (Twilight utterly included, though I'm happy I was able to get past it), because to me, a title is supposed to say something about the book. Twilight is mentioned a couple of times in the book, but not as an overall theme. If anything, they should have called it 'Noon' or 'Mid-afternoon', but of course those don't sound good. It seems to be more important to make titles sound romantic and dramatic and pretty than to actually have any meaning.


Okay, give an example of a title you do like. From here, it doesn't look like you've left much room for a title of any sort.

[SPMiller]

My WIP1's working title is <article> <noun> <preposition> <possessive-adjective> <noun>, which technically doesn't appear anywhere in her list...

[Liosse de Velishaf]

My WIP1's working title is <article> <noun> <preposition> <possessive-adjective> <noun>, which technically doesn't appear anywhere in her list...

But it's pretty close to "the <noun> of <noun>.

[SPMiller]

Similar, but not identical. Come on, I know you do conlangs, so you know enough about this ;)

[Gynn]

Okay, give an example of a title you do like. From here, it doesn't look like you've left much room for a title of any sort.

haha I was about to say the same thing.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Similar, but not identical. Come on, I know you do conlangs, so you know enough about this ;)


Well, there's that possessive-adjective... which I admit can make a big difference in meaning. :)




Damn, knew that conlanging thing would come back to bite me in the ass. Bakh doohv! I cannot fiegn ignorance, how annoying.

[AMCrenshaw]

What about one-word titles?

AMC

ETA see my signature :)

[SPMiller]

I titled one of my assassin stories Nothing Personal, which I thought was really damn clever until I searched Amazon and discovered it had been used a kazillion times before.

Seems that most of the coolest titles are like that.

[AMCrenshaw]

Nothing personal. Damn. I like it. Maybe that's what I'll name my new horse.


AMC

[SPMiller]

My newest is called Fusilero.

Oh, wait. You were just kidding.

[AMCrenshaw]

...

ETA:



AMC

[SPMiller]

Wait, u where srs? Didn't know you were horse people. Guess it shouldn't surprise me, given Courier.

[AMCrenshaw]

I am a starry eyed little person who's grown up in the country and now lives in the city.

I haz dreamz

AMC

[SPMiller]

I grew up in suburbia and now dwell on a horse farm.

[AMCrenshaw]

Here is an irrational pet-peeve: latin phrases among conlang phrases. I know I know it's all written in English...








but!

[AuthorGuy]

Fex! I have no idea what a 'conlang phrase' means.

[AuthorGuy]

My biggest, most general pet peeve?
Crappy titles.
They're everywhere! I can't expect a book to be any good when the title is A) exactly like every other title in the bookstore or B) just plain dumb!
I have a list of title no-noes a mile long, but I'll break it down to save time (mine and all of yours)
-Celestial bodies
- The formats of:
The <adjective> <noun>,
The <noun> of <noun>,
<'Original' name (one that's essentially a combination of random letters, the more vowels and 'z's the better)>'s <noun>
Or anything with a number, especially:
The <number> <noun>s
-'Original' names, like mentioned above, in the title at all. That applies to names of places, as well.
-Anything with 'sword', 'heart', 'destiny', 'death'...this is where the list becomes really, really long.
I just really don't like cliche titles (Twilight utterly included, though I'm happy I was able to get past it), because to me, a title is supposed to say something about the book. Twilight is mentioned a couple of times in the book, but not as an overall theme. If anything, they should have called it 'Noon' or 'Mid-afternoon', but of course those don't sound good. It seems to be more important to make titles sound romantic and dramatic and pretty than to actually have any meaning.
I do mostly agree with you here, since one thing you don't have in your list is a format with a verb in it. My preference is for more active titles. However, your list sort of loses a number of classics, such as The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, A Game of Thrones (not that I've read it, but I hear a lot of people say they liked it), World of Ptaavs, and less well-known works like The Misenchanted Sword and The Unwilling Warlord.

[AuthorGuy]

Okay, give an example of a title you do like. From here, it doesn't look like you've left much room for a title of any sort.
My first novel is titled 'Unbinding the Stone.' My second is A Warrior Made. Or my short stories 'Chasing His Own Tale', 'Off the Map', 'Ex Libris', and 'Boys Will be Boys' all fit the bill. I have a similar dislike of cliche titles (and even more against cliche stories!), so I always try to come up with something different.

To get back to the point of the thread, I also don't like the scene where the novice who can barely hold a sword is transformed, through a training montage with a nice musical background, into a highly-trained killing machine, as is seen in just about every movie, from Remo Williams to Spartacus to The Mask of Zorro.

[AceTachyon]

To get back to the point of the thread, I also don't like the scene where the novice who can barely hold a sword is transformed, through a training montage with a nice musical background, into a highly-trained killing machine, as is seen in just about every movie, from Remo Williams to Spartacus to The Mask of Zorro.
So you'd prefer not to have the training montage.

Maybe the film goes from the scene where the novice can barely hold a sword, do a slow dissolve, then be highly-trained killing machine with dialogue references to how long the training took, etc.

[AuthorGuy]

So you'd prefer not to have the training montage.

Maybe the film goes from the scene where the novice can barely hold a sword, do a slow dissolve, then be highly-trained killing machine with dialogue references to how long the training took, etc.
In my first novel, Unbinding the Stone, I ran into exactly that sort of scene. Rather than go to the trouble of studying various martial arts so I could do a clumsy, half-assed portrayal of my hero learning the trade, I came up up with Triple-Distilled Elixir of Warrior instead, which was not only faster and more original, it opened the doors for a number of plot developments that have since expressed themselves in both that book and its sequel.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

In my first novel, Unbinding the Stone, I ran into exactly that sort of scene. Rather than go to the trouble of studying various martial arts so I could do a clumsy, half-assed portrayal of my hero learning the trade, I came up up with Triple-Distilled Elixir of Warrior instead, which was not only faster and more original, it opened the doors for a number of plot developments that have since expressed themselves in both that book and its sequel.

Eh, what a cheat! ;)

[AceTachyon]

Eh, what a cheat! ;)
Exactly!

Now you've just missed out on having "Glory of Love" by Peter Cetera playing in the background of the training montage.

Or even "Eye of the Tiger" by Survivor.

:tongue

[AuthorGuy]

Exactly!

Now you've just missed out on having "Glory of Love" by Peter Cetera playing in the background of the training montage.

Or even "Eye of the Tiger" by Survivor.

:tongue
Damn! Didn't think of that.

[SPMiller]

CAAAAAVEZZZZZZZZZ

Wait, I like caves. Never mind.

"lol u liek cavez? hur hur, nevar got over oedipus complex, luser!"

Shut up, how creepy :(








I have not been drinking.

[Dark Cyril]

A Game of Thrones (not that I've read it, but I hear a lot of people say they liked it),

What? You need to fix that, like right now.

Seriously, why aren't you gone and reading it?

In all fairness, it's a book (not to mention a series) that I heartily recommend any fantasy writer or lover of fantasy literature in general.

However, to the topic at hand, one of my biggest pet peeves in fantasy is when they attempt to ascribe a set system to their magic. I know nearly every author does this to one degree or another, but it still torques me off every time I see it. Once you've put a reasoning behind it and a system to it, it's no longer magic. It's simply science that doesn't work.

George R.R. Martin (author of A Game of Thrones coincidentally) put it best when he said "Magic should be... magical."

I understand everything Jack Vance did for the fantasy genre years ago. But seriously... let the magic system go. It's getting tiring reading about magicians in heavy robes waving their hands around an using faux latin in a very precise way to get the desired effect. Just have it happen and let the other people in the world wonder why. If the character using the magic knows what he's doing, so much the better, that's all that you need. Sometimes, it's even better if he's using a force that he can't always control and doesn't understand. Makes him a little more unpredictable.

If you need to put the reasonings in there, leave them vague and open to interpretation. Magic comes from the self IMO, not from a magic wand and a couple of latin words (I'm looking at you Potter).

[IdiotsRUs]

I may have to respectfully disagree, to an extent.

While I hate the faux latin stuff too, and love the 'magical' nature of er magic a little explanation works wonders - and can even enhance the mystery. And it's nice to know the rules ( or at least the restraints), so you know that the author isn't just going to pull something out of his arse as a deux ex machina -- 'Oh did I never tell you I could do that? Well I can.'

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

However, to the topic at hand, one of my biggest pet peeves in fantasy is when they attempt to ascribe a set system to their magic. I know nearly every author does this to one degree or another, but it still torques me off every time I see it. Once you've put a reasoning behind it and a system to it, it's no longer magic. It's simply science that doesn't work.

George R.R. Martin (author of A Game of Thrones coincidentally) put it best when he said "Magic should be... magical."

I understand everything Jack Vance did for the fantasy genre years ago. But seriously... let the magic system go. It's getting tiring reading about magicians in heavy robes waving their hands around an using faux latin in a very precise way to get the desired effect. Just have it happen and let the other people in the world wonder why. If the character using the magic knows what he's doing, so much the better, that's all that you need. Sometimes, it's even better if he's using a force that he can't always control and doesn't understand. Makes him a little more unpredictable.

If you need to put the reasonings in there, leave them vague and open to interpretation. Magic comes from the self IMO, not from a magic wand and a couple of latin words (I'm looking at you Potter).
I have to disagree. Systematic, delimited magic is Chekhov's gun. If magic is going to be used in any sort of plot-influencing way then it is best to foreshadow that use, to prevent the plot twist coming as a disappointing deus ex machina. To effectively foreshadow magic you have to clue the reader in to where its outer boundaries are -- to what sorts of things can and cannot be accomplished by that magic.

That said, systematic magic certainly does not need to involve Latin or wands. Indeed, the magic in Harry Potter is not a good example of delimited magic because it is never very clear what that magic cannot do. Rowling effectively delimits and foreshadows her magic despite that fact by making her characters students and then 'teaching' them all the spells they will later use in plot-influencing ways. A good example of delimited magic that "comes from the self" is a well-defined psi power, like the pyrokinesis of the girl in King's Firestarter. Her magic power was quickly introduced as setting stuff on fire with her mind, so from a plot perspective none of the subsequent uses of her magic came as a deus ex machina (since they all involved setting stuff on fire).

[Liosse de Velishaf]

What? You need to fix that, like right now.

Seriously, why aren't you gone and reading it?

In all fairness, it's a book (not to mention a series) that I heartily recommend any fantasy writer or lover of fantasy literature in general.

However, to the topic at hand, one of my biggest pet peeves in fantasy is when they attempt to ascribe a set system to their magic. I know nearly every author does this to one degree or another, but it still torques me off every time I see it. Once you've put a reasoning behind it and a system to it, it's no longer magic. It's simply science that doesn't work.

George R.R. Martin (author of A Game of Thrones coincidentally) put it best when he said "Magic should be... magical."

I understand everything Jack Vance did for the fantasy genre years ago. But seriously... let the magic system go. It's getting tiring reading about magicians in heavy robes waving their hands around an using faux latin in a very precise way to get the desired effect. Just have it happen and let the other people in the world wonder why. If the character using the magic knows what he's doing, so much the better, that's all that you need. Sometimes, it's even better if he's using a force that he can't always control and doesn't understand. Makes him a little more unpredictable.

If you need to put the reasonings in there, leave them vague and open to interpretation. Magic comes from the self IMO, not from a magic wand and a couple of latin words (I'm looking at you Potter).


From one perspective, I agree with you. It can be much more interesting if the magic is not explained in painstaking detail. I love Martin's magi, for instance, because he doesn't set out the rules in heaps of exposition. On the other hand, if I remember right, he said he does have a system for his magic to some extent, only... he won't actually reveal it. In fact, even by the end of the first book of ASOIAF, you can see where he hints at certain "rules" that apparently govern the magic.

From another perspective, I love knowing the rules of magic, and not only because it keeps the author from cheating. Basically anything about how a conworld works fascinates me, and there's extra points for the magic system in a fantasy world. I think the attitude the reader takes is very important. If one decides that any magic with a known system is "science that doesn't work", which is, I think, a very unfair label applied to many magical(in the sense of wonder, not in the literal sense that it is magic) magic systems. "Science", as we use the word today, is concerned with very earth-like matters of mechanics, and so it's not entirely reasonable to apply it to things that would never be possible on earth.

I'll grant you that latin/latinate words and wands can get annoying after awhile, but in fact, the system of Harry Potter fits your definition of a good magic system(as I read it), in that the "rules" explained are at least no more than the undertsanding of the characters at the time, and even so, don't place any real limits on the magic.

From third viewpoint, "magic" in fantasy literature is to an extent a symbolic representation of the way we view and manipulate the world. When the "scientific" systems of magic appeared, we humans viewed the world from a very logical perspective, and so that was reflected in people's desire for a logical system of magic. "Real" magic, as you think of it derives from an earlier time when we believed in the principles of sympathy and a world/power beyond that directly visible through our senses. People could accpet a squishy idea of magic because they believed that that's how magic (and, for the purpose of my claim, the world) worked. It's only after we discovered that the world could be seen through a very specific set of rules that we came up with "scientific" systems of magic.(I'll admit I'm simplifying a few things, but I hope my point gets across.)

[Nivarion]

you know i started a game of thrones, but then i ran into my number one pet peeve.

i hate it when the story barges into the characters privacy. if the characters are well... making babies, let them do it. but let them do it alone. and i hate the scenes where they are moving the plot forward after they have swapping bio-matter. (you know the ones, laying in the bed and talking)

i like it better when they go into a room or some place alone or such, and from whats happening before hand you are pretty sure it happened. and then for confirmation just mention that the woman involved is pregnant or something. just please, i payed for a story, not a porno. if i wanted the second, and i don't, well the internet...

[mscelina]

Hmm. Let's see.

I have a set magical system, but it's not what anyone would think it would be because my MC has a kind of magic that is unique on her world. I don't use faux latin--I use real latin as an actual language for an ancient civilization. My characters have sex, but there's not a single sex scene that is explicit and every one forwards the plot. *By the way, there is a BIG difference between erotic scenes and porno. Let's try not to be insulting here.* My MC learns how to fight with bladed weapons, but it takes her a couple of books.

So, yeah. I'd have to say that my pet peeves about fantasy are still the same--the concept that somehow anything is off limits to a speculative fiction writer. *shrug* Why limit yourself when you're writing? Why stop and think, "I can't do this because someone said they hated it in the pet peeves in fantasy thread on AW?"

It doesn't matter what you do as long as you do it well. Tell the story. Make the characters interesting and pertinent. Develop the conflict and then resolve it. Seduce your readers into the willing suspension of disbelief. If you can accomplish these things, then no one is going to be thinking about their pet peeves when they read your work. :)

[Liosse de Velishaf]

you know i started a game of thrones, but then i ran into my number one pet peeve.

i hate it when the story barges into the characters privacy. if the characters are well... making babies, let them do it. but let them do it alone. and i hate the scenes where they are moving the plot forward after they have swapping bio-matter. (you know the ones, laying in the bed and talking)

i like it better when they go into a room or some place alone or such, and from whats happening before hand you are pretty sure it happened. and then for confirmation just mention that the woman involved is pregnant or something. just please, i payed for a story, not a porno. if i wanted the second, and i don't, well the internet...


Perhaps the grim realities of medieval life are not to your liking. Ha! There was nothing approching "porn" in any of the books. You want to talk porno, go read LKH. The sex scenes are in fact integral to the plot and even more so the characterization of the novels. Characters in a story have no privacy. Do imagine they would like you peering into their heads any more than they like you peering into their beds? I've yet to know someone who enjoyed showing strangers their fears and pains. And besides, if Daenarys can handle an entire khalasar watching, I imagine she can handle you. I have a feeling that GRRM has better things to do than make up fanporn between his characters. Now Hamilton, maybe not so much. Let's also note the obvious lack of procreational intent in the majority of the scenes.

[Stacia Kane]

you know i started a game of thrones, but then i ran into my number one pet peeve.

i hate it when the story barges into the characters privacy. if the characters are well... making babies, let them do it. but let them do it alone. and i hate the scenes where they are moving the plot forward after they have swapping bio-matter. (you know the ones, laying in the bed and talking)

i like it better when they go into a room or some place alone or such, and from whats happening before hand you are pretty sure it happened. and then for confirmation just mention that the woman involved is pregnant or something. just please, i payed for a story, not a porno. if i wanted the second, and i don't, well the internet...

Yeah, I couldn't disagree more. I hate it when the story treats me like some sort of Victorian maiden not fit to see such things, or tells me that although I've been following these two people and their relationship for an entire book--sometimes several books--I don't deserve to see them finally express their feelings physically, or treats that physical expression as if it's somehow dirty and banal and that I can't/wouldn't learn anything new about them and their relationship from seeing it.

I don't want to be "pretty sure" about anything that happened in a book. I want to know what happened. That's why I'm reading it. I wouldn't appreciate a mystery where at the end the detective turns to his buddy and they have a conversation like this either:

Detective: Well, I know who did it.

Friend: Was it...?

Detective (smiles, nods): Oh, yeah.

Friend: Well, let's go then!

THE END.

If what the characters are doing isn't important enough to show me, they shouldn't be doing it at all. IMO.


And I also think magic needs to have some sort of defined limits/rules; not just because it prevents rabbit-pulling and cuts down on the likelihood of Mary Sues, but because most editors will insist the rules be at least loosely defined. :) I don't need everything to be defined, but I do need to know right from the outset whether or not this is the kind of world where people can shoot fire from their hands and levitate.

[SPMiller]

Rather than dogpiling Nivarion, I'd like to call attention to his age and suggest that his perspective might change as he gets older.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

Rather than dogpiling Nivarion, I'd like to call attention to his age and suggest that his perspective might change as he gets older.

lol... I'll admit to skipping certain scenes when I was younger, and if they have little bearing on the story, I still do. I completely undertsand his reasoning, I just disagree with the premise that sex scenes are always unecessary. No doubt there are plenty of stories to be paid for where the author uses the method Niv describes, and I'd read them too if the story was good. Showing such scenes is never a necessaity for a good book, nor do they always add something; rather, for certain atmospheres and levels of realism, they are useful.

I intended no dogpiling to begin, I assure you.

[kuwisdelu]

lol... I'll admit to skipping certain scenes when I was younger, and if they have little bearing on the story, I still do.

Odd. When I was younger, I read stories just for those scenes. :rolleyes: :D


More to the topic, I hate it when the hero manages to take out whole armies on his own without a very good explanation.

Also badly-made languages. I never bothered to read it, but I'm looking at you, Paolini.

[Nakhlasmoke]

This isn't only fantasy, but I've seen it happen often enough within the genre, but beautiful buxom heroines with nary a flaw AND the ability to wield a war axe, a sword, multiple daggers, and take out masses of The Enemy just by virtue of their super speshul snowflakeness.

Also, anyone who is named after their super speshul ability.

[SPMiller]

This isn't only fantasy, but I've seen it happen often enough within the genre, but beautiful buxom heroines with nary a flaw AND the ability to wield a war axe, a sword, multiple daggers, and take out masses of The Enemy just by virtue of their super speshul snowflakeness.

Also, anyone who is named after their super speshul ability.http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MostCommonSuperPower

Sorry for stealing yet more of your free time.

[IdiotsRUs]

beautiful buxom heroines with nary a flaw AND the ability to wield a war axe, a sword, multiple daggers,

Ah yes. See, wouldn't the super speshul bargain bucket sized boobies get in the way? They might risk cutting one off every time....Not to mention the permanent black eyes.

[Nakhlasmoke]

Yeah I'm a buxom grrl. You have to strap those suckers down before you can even have a decent run, let alone try kill someone with something large and pointy.

[SPMiller]

Giant boobs and huge dongs, the mainstays of popular fiction. That's what sells.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Nakhlasmoke]

Hahah and my books have neither, so I guess I'm doomed to obscurity.

Sucks.

[SPMiller]

If I were to try to cast my fantasy novel for a movie production, I'd have trouble finding an actress flat enough to play one of the heroines.

[Nakhlasmoke]

Omg me too. We would be doomed to watch giant-breasted walking clichés "portray" our heroines.

Somehow though, I really don't see the hollywood option thing being a problem for me. :D

[SPMiller]

This is a forum for fantasy, ain't it? ;) We can all pretend we'll make it big someday!

[AceTachyon]

This isn't only fantasy, but I've seen it happen often enough within the genre, but beautiful buxom heroines with nary a flaw AND the ability to wield a war axe, a sword, multiple daggers, and take out masses of The Enemy just by virtue of their super speshul snowflakeness.

Mine has two heroines but they're not buxom.

I envision them as B-cups.

[dclary]

If I were to try to cast my fantasy novel for a movie production, I'd have trouble finding an actress flat enough to play one of the heroines.

Keira Knightley? Natalie Portman? Both have shown a willingness to do action and/or fantasy. Both are beautiful, intelligent, have comic timing, and are without massive mammarage.

[IdiotsRUs]

Yup my MC is pretty flat too. But I know who's going to play her. My local landlord's daughter is at RADA and she looks exactly right.

[Nakhlasmoke]

Oh actually, yeah, and Natalie portman has managed to pull off the shaved head look.

The only thing is I really envision someone not as conventionally pretty.

Guess you can't win them all.

[Mr. Chuckletrousers]

This isn't only fantasy, but I've seen it happen often enough within the genre, but beautiful buxom heroines with nary a flaw AND the ability to wield a war axe, a sword, multiple daggers, and take out masses of The Enemy just by virtue of their super speshul snowflakeness.

Also, anyone who is named after their super speshul ability.
Don't forget the special-colored eyes (e.g. 'violet'), and the inevitable cute telepathic companion-animal. But yes....bewbage.

[SPMiller]

Keira Knightley? Natalie Portman? Both have shown a willingness to do action and/or fantasy. Both are beautiful, intelligent, have comic timing, and are without massive mammarage.Knightley might be flat enough, but there'd have to be a lot of makeup and camera tricks before she fit the part.

[dclary]

Maybe these two actresses won't do it for you. But there's plenty of regular-chested actresses who are attractive (or not), smart, sexy (or not), intelligent, comedic, AND flat-chested who do sci fi and fantasy.

Summer Glau, Allison Hannigan, to pull from the Whedonverse are another pair.

[AceTachyon]

Maybe these two actresses won't do it for you. But there's plenty of regular-chested actresses who are attractive (or not), smart, sexy (or not), intelligent, comedic, AND flat-chested who do sci fi and fantasy.

Summer Glau, Allison Hannigan, to pull from the Whedonverse are another pair.
How can you forget Jewel Staite?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[dclary]

How can you forget Jewel Staite?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I kinda got the feeling that Kaylee had breasts. Was I wrong?

I :heart: Kaylee.

[SPMiller]

I kinda got the feeling that Kaylee had breasts. Was I wrong?

I :heart: Kaylee.Time to consult images.google.com.

Verdict: not flat.

[AceTachyon]

I kinda got the feeling that Kaylee had breasts. Was I wrong?

I :heart: Kaylee.

I :heart: Kaylee, too.

Yes, she has breasteses. But I wouldn't call her buxom. Not in a Jenna Jameson way.

She's just....nice.

[AceTachyon]

Ah. You're talking FLAT.

I see.

Pardon my error.

I just saw Summer, Allyson, and Whedonverse in one sentence and had to speak out for Kaylee.

I guess Billie Piper would also be out of the running...

[SPMiller]

Ah. You're talking FLAT.I think you're just beginning to grasp the issue...

[jennontheisland]

Puns again....

Sheesh and i thought only romance discusstion threads evolved into discussions about phyiscal attributes. I see I'll be right at home in Sf/F. LOL

[AceTachyon]

I think you're just beginning to grasp the issue...
Grasp as well as keep abreast of the issue. I mean, I don't want to look like a complete boob, y'know?

Thanks for the mammaries, SPM.

[dclary]

Puns again....

Sheesh and i thought only romance discusstion threads evolved into discussions about phyiscal attributes. I see I'll be right at home in Sf/F. LOL

As jeff foxworthy says...

"Women want to understand what men are thinking. What they don't get is that men are always thinking just two things. 'I'd like to see something naked, and I'd like a beer.'"

[dclary]

Grasp as well as keep abreast of the issue. I mean, I don't want to look like a complete boob, y'know?

Thanks for the mammaries, SPM.

Now you're just milking it, Ace.

[AceTachyon]

Now you're just milking it, Ace.
Yes I am, bra.

[AceTachyon]

Breasticles aside...

I don't have many peeves with fantasy novels.

As long as it's entertaining, I'm good.

[Toothpaste]

Actually this latest debate about the buxom women warriors vs "regularly" sized actresses to be cast in fantasies has me a tiny bit miffed. Because really, we never see women on screen who could ACTUALLY be warriors. What I would like to see in books and film, are women who actually look like their could wield a weapon. Not stick insects like Knightly or Portman who look like a breeze could blow them over, heck even Summer Glau is TINY, and you'll see that they actually use that to their advantage demonstrating her super strength vs her actually body shape. I would like to see an average sized woman (like . . . wait for it . . . a size 8), with strong arms, strong legs etc play these characters. Like Lucy Lawless back in the Xena days. Now there was someone I could believe was a warrior princess. Yes the big boobs are ridiculous, but so are the teeny tiny frames.

[SPMiller]

I'd like to see just how many breast puns we can rack up in one thread.

[Nakhlasmoke]

an average sized woman is size 8.....


*boggles*

My sister weighs 45 kilos and can only just fit into a size eight.

[SPMiller]

Well, Toothpaste, it so happens that one of the reasons this particular character is so flat-chested is because she has an athletic, well-muscled body. She's also ridiculously tall. I just didn't bother pointing out such physical attributes, simply because I think it's hard enough to find a sufficiently flat actress in the first place.

Warrior-priestess, though, not warrior-princess.

[AceTachyon]

I would like to see an average sized woman (like . . . wait for it . . . a size 8), with strong arms, strong legs etc play these characters. Like Lucy Lawless back in the Xena days. Now there was someone I could believe was a warrior princess.
My current project was inspired by Xena so I have Lucy Lawless and Renee O'Connor in mind when I write the characters.

[Toothpaste]

Okay first of all my point had nothing to do with average = 8. However my point with the size 8 thing is that for most people, that is still quite small, and yet on television/film, you'd be hard pressed to point out a single actress that size, let alone even a size 6. So people wanting some size 2 like Glau, or a 0 like Knightly as their warrior princess just boggles my mind. I want to see someone who could actually hold a sword without falling over. And trust me, I actually know women who can, beautiful feminine women, who also happen to have strong arms, and a bit more meat on their bones. And man can they kick ass . . . That was my point.

[AceTachyon]

Well, Toothpaste, it so happens that one of the reasons this particular character is so flat-chested is because she has an athletic, well-muscled body. She's also ridiculously tall.
So she looks like Cory Everson. Or maybe Gabrielle Reece.

[dclary]

Because really, we never see women on screen who could ACTUALLY be warriors.

Linda Hamilton, Sigourney Weaver, and Michelle Yeoh would disagree with you. Looking at them in their films, I would too.

[SPMiller]

Swords are actually very light, FYI.

[Nakhlasmoke]

Wait you have a size 0....


um i think we're talking different sizes here.

[dclary]

My current project was inspired by Xena so I have Lucy Lawless and Renee O'Connor in mind when I write the characters.

I have Lucy and Renee in mind too.

Wait, what? Writing?

Huh.

[Toothpaste]

Well, Toothpaste, it so happens that one of the reasons this particular character is so flat-chested is because she has an athletic, well-muscled body. She's also ridiculously tall. I just didn't bother pointing out such physical attributes, simply because I think it's hard enough to find a sufficiently flat actress in the first place.

Warrior-priestess, though, not warrior-princess.


Cool. But I do find it a bit funny the whole you can't find a flat chested actress out there . . . yes a truly flat chested as in Knightly chest is not that common, but most major movie stars (not the buxom blondes who guest star on things like CSI) don't actually have large boobs. I know this. Having large boobs means that people only want to cast you as the sex symbol. You can't be cast as elegant, or tough, or smart if you've got larger breasts. I know. I have larger breasts and when I go out for an artsy role, or something, I know they are looking for waif thin. When I go out for a kick ass chick role, I know they are looking for lean muscle (and as you pointed out that evidently means you don't have boobs anymore). You should have no problem finding women with small breasts in the film world. Trust me.

[SPMiller]

So she looks like Cory Everson. Or maybe Gabrielle Reece.Reece is going in the right direction. Even taller than me. Everson is too far in the muscly end of the scale.

[Toothpaste]

Swords are actually very light, FYI.

Um I know, I fight with them. Thus I also know what years of fighting does to the female form, and it doesn't make you look like Knightly.

And I love Linda Hamilton and Sigourney Weaver and Michelle Yeoh. But they are often the exceptions to the rule. Especially as the latter two come from the mid 90s.

[dclary]

So she looks like Cory Everson. Or maybe Gabrielle Reece.

Grace Jones?

[SPMiller]

Cool. But I do find it a bit funny the whole you can't find a flat chested actress out there . . . yes a truly flat chested as in Knightly chest is not that common, but most major movie stars (not the buxom blondes who guest star on things like CSI) don't actually have large boobs. I know this. Having large boobs means that people only want to cast you as the sex symbol. You can't be cast as elegant, or tough, or smart if you've got larger breasts. I know. I have larger breasts and when I go out for an artsy role, or something, I know they are looking for waif thin. When I go out for a kick ass chick role, I know they are looking for lean muscle (and as you pointed out that evidently means you don't have boobs anymore). You should have no problem finding women with small breasts in the film world. Trust me.That's rather unfortunate. It sucks, I'm sure, to have your own body limiting your options in that way.

Jenn: no, I never have specific people in mind, but I'm taking this opportunity to seek an actress for the role just because I'm bored.

[jennontheisland]

Does everyone have an actor/model/whatever in mind when they visualize characters?

[Nakhlasmoke]

Nope. Not me.

That's why I'm hard-pressed to think of one.

I had an ex-roommate in mind for Irene. And she was hawt - she looked like a skinny little girlish boy with huge eyes.

[dclary]

Does everyone have an actor/model/whatever in mind when they visualize characters?

I do. I print out photos of the actor/character I have in mind for each character and keep it in front of me when I write, so I have a quick and handy reference.

Usually, though, I have one character in mind for looks, a different character for voice/mannerisms, and usually the personality is something I've made up just for them.

[Toothpaste]

That's rather unfortunate. It sucks, I'm sure, to have your own body limiting your options in that way.


Yup it totally does :) . But I am not half so frustrated at the current casting of kick ass girls as some of my fight friends. For me it is a hobby, but for them . . . they have their own stunt team, are some of the top fight professionals in the city. These are people who actually know how to fight, and do not look remotely like our stereotypes we have in our heads or see on film (or heck, read in books). I guess I just get really indignant for them.

(and also I really get tired of everyone thinking you have it made if you've got boobs, or that people want to see flat chested heroines more often. In this day and age, with the obsession with the skinny and backless shirts, and boyish forms . . . I'm sorry we kind of live in the era of the flat chest when it comes to the film/fashion industry and you know what, it also sucks for us too you know)

[SPMiller]

Uh, I don't get the obsession with skinny boy-girls, so I'm afraid I have no insights for you in that regard. I go for curvier women in my personal life. It's just that this particular character... oh, never mind.

[dclary]

The priestess/heroine of my current WIP has the face of the blonde, short-haired jedi in Knights of the Old Republic 2.

[AceTachyon]

Does everyone have an actor/model/whatever in mind when they visualize characters?
I do.

For my current project I have the following folks in mind when I write:
Lucy Lawless (in her Xena days) as Kat
Renee O'Connor (in her Xena days) as Mouse
Sean Connery (from Red October) as Revell
Joe Pantoliano (as Cosmo from U.S. Marshals) as Specs
Elisa Dushku as Jade
Noah Taylor as Fast Eddie

[Toothpaste]

Uh, I don't get the obsession with skinny boy-girls, so I'm afraid I have no insights for you in that regard. I go for curvier women in my personal life. It's just that this particular character... oh, never mind.

Okay, I am really sorry, I did not mean to come across like I was dissing you at all. It was a much more general statement, not about any one particular person. In my experience warrior types tend to be wiry and flat chested (at least in film), and I simply know too many curvaceous strong, slightly larger than a size 2 fighters to approve of that generalisation. HOWEVER, the only way to overcome these stereotypes is to have women of many different sizes and shapes, and that INCLUDES the wiry flat chested ones. I by no means meant to insult anyone's writing, I was merely pointing out that some general observations about warrior women, at least to me, were slightly inaccurate.

We must create characters of all types, all sizes, all personalities. That is the crux of my point. I apologise sincerely again if I offended anyone, I truly did not mean to at all.

[IdiotsRUs]

Does everyone have an actor/model/whatever in mind when they visualize characters?

Someone certainly. Like teh landlord's daughter for my MC. But it's also an excuse to have pictures of Johnny Depp, Karl Urban and friends on the wall by my PC.

My excuse and I'm sticking to it :D

Wait you have a size 0....


um i think we're talking different sizes here.

Yup reckon so. US sizes are different to UK I know that. I'm a size eight UK, which is a US 6. And I'm pretty slim, though I have muscles ( when I remember to go to the gym anyway!). If I got down to a 0 ( even a UK one) I'd be near enough dead.

Oh and my MC is pretty skinny and flat chested because she's only half human - and genetically her other half says 'be skinny'

[jennontheisland]

Wow Ace, you've cast every role!

My CP always has a pic nearby for her H/h, but I've never managed to find someone who looks exactly like my characters, and I find the little differences distracting.