What do you think of this magic system?

ZeroFlowne · Oct 31, 2008

All objects and forces contain some intrinsic energy (essence, we'll call it)that mages are able to touch. They can manipulate this essence in whatever way they choose, even drawing it into themselves and using it there. If so desired, the mage can move the element itself.

For example, Taila is a ship-mage with a strong connection to the sea. She can use her ability to move water (by moving its essence) to speed her ship along, or create a tidal wall to protect herself. She can also use her power offensively in the form of pressurized water or drowning, but she doesn't like to. She can also work with the "essence" of water without moving the water itself. She can briefly hold this essence within herself, and when she does she takes some of the qualities of water - her movements become fluid and graceful, and her thinking becomes more adaptive.

In a nutshell, mages in this world can interact with the essences of water/rocks/cold/whatever, and use that natural power in whatever way he/she chooses. Note that a mage trapped in a vacuum is powerless (unless he knows how to interact with vacuum essences, I suppose)If you're wondering, my influences for this are largely Magic:The Gathering and Avatar:The Last Airbender.

What do you guys think? Also, what are some cool possibilities for this system, if you've got any?

zornhau · Oct 31, 2008

ZeroFlowne said:
All objects and forces contain some intrinsic energy (essence, we'll call it)that mages are able to touch. They can manipulate this essence in whatever way they choose, even drawing it into themselves and using it there. If so desired, the mage can move the element itself.

For example, Taila is a ship-mage with a strong connection to the sea. She can use her ability to move water (by moving its essence) to speed her ship along, or create a tidal wall to protect herself. She can also use her power offensively in the form of pressurized water or drowning, but she doesn't like to. She can also work with the "essence" of water without moving the water itself. She can briefly hold this essence within herself, and when she does she takes some of the qualities of water - her movements become fluid and graceful, and her thinking becomes more adaptive.

In a nutshell, mages in this world can interact with the essences of water/rocks/cold/whatever, and use that natural power in whatever way he/she chooses. Note that a mage trapped in a vacuum is powerless (unless he knows how to interact with vacuum essences, I suppose)If you're wondering, my influences for this are largely Magic:The Gathering and Avatar:The Last Airbender.

What do you guys think? Also, what are some cool possibilities for this system, if you've got any?

What's the downside? E.g. does being charged up with Water also confer the negative qualities?

ZeroFlowne · Oct 31, 2008

I suppose it would - you'd be more malleable, less able to make solid decisions. I'm not sure what the physical downside would be.

DeleyanLee · Oct 31, 2008

Just out of curiosity, why does there have to be a downside to the magic?

I keep hearing that it's to keep characters from becoming all-powerful, but there didn't seem to be downside/cost to Gandulf's magic and he wasn't all-powerful.

I think it's more important in how it works for your story than anything else. If it works, beautiful. If it doesn't, make it work and keep going. Don't look back.

wickerman · Oct 31, 2008

Great question!

I think the impact of 'limits' or 'downsides' to magic is psychological for the reader. I call it 'superman syndrome' after a wildly popular and poorly defined blue spandex wearing dude

The issue with no 'downside' is that there is no tension. If Superman needs to shrug off high caliber tank shells this week and thermo nuclear weapons next week, you just make the jump. It's too easy to b.s. your way out of a situation and the reader sees it. Worse, when your superman can;t find a key to a locked door, you can;t have him spend an hour looking for it when the reader knows he can tear a through a steel door with his pinky finger,

Now Superman might be overkill as an example, but no repercussions from the us eof power simply invites overuse of said power. If the wielder of such power need never fear the consequences, where is the logical reason for restraint? Now you can have your MC just be a kind hearted gal who wrinkles her nose at the thought of laying entire cities to waste, but how many ultra considerate folks inhabit your world? (please note I mean 'you' int he extremely generic sense... not YOU

)

Regardless, making sure the gun can run out of bullets so to speak keep some of the tension and danger in play. All powerful magic using types come off as walking howitzers if we aren't careful.

Dale Emery · Oct 31, 2008

I think it's an interesting magic system with a lot of possibilities... perhaps too many...

Others have asked you about the downside and the costs of the magic. I'm wondering also what the limits are of the magic. "Use the essence in any way" sounds unstoppably powerful.

ZeroFlowne said:
Note that a mage trapped in a vacuum is powerless (unless he knows how to interact with vacuum essences, I suppose)

From how far away can a mage tap the essence? When a ship-mage causes water to speed a ship, I'm guessing that she does this while she is not herself in the water. So she can act on the water from some distance.

So could a mage trapped in vacuum tap the essence of materials outside the vacuum?

Someone trapped in a vacuum, unless she is in zero gravity, is standing on something that isn't vacuum, and is surrounded by walls that are not vacuum . In fact, she's made of stuff that isn't vacuum, and may be able to tap the essence of the water or stone (bones) in her own body.

Dale

SPMiller · Oct 31, 2008

There need not be drawbacks to magic, but there does need to be some mechanism to maintain tension. Superman has to face extraordinarily powerful opponents for there to be any sort of reasonable conflict. Of course, since he's a comic book superhero, the outcome is guaranteed: he will win, and there will be another issue next week. In literature, that guarantee doesn't necessarily exist.

What I want to know is: why is the system limited only to the stereotypical natural elements? There are, for example, many types of minerals, each with differing hardnesses, molecular structures, chemical reactivities, and so forth. Would the mage's inherited qualities vary depending on the exact type of rock from which she draws essence? Are there differences between saltwater-essence and freshwater-lake-essence?

Liosse de Velishaf · Oct 31, 2008

SPMiller said:
There need not be drawbacks to magic, but there does need to be some mechanism to maintain tension. Superman has to face extraordinarily powerful opponents for there to be any sort of reasonable conflict. Of course, since he's a comic book superhero, the outcome is guaranteed: he will win, and there will be another issue next week. In literature, that guarantee doesn't necessarily exist.

What I want to know is: why is the system limited only to the stereotypical natural elements? There are, for example, many types of minerals, each with differing hardnesses, molecular structures, chemical reactivities, and so forth. Would the mage's inherited qualities vary depending on the exact type of rock from which she draws essence? Are there differences between saltwater-essence and freshwater-lake-essence?

You make a good point. I personally have a system of magic for a possible story where a substance has it's own unique "energy" properties, and rather than "elemental" magic, or generic magical energy, the "mage", for lack of a better term yet, can use this to manipulate the substance and use it in ways based somewhat on it's actual chemical properties.

On the subject of Zero's particular system:

This type of system has been proposed and possibly even used a few times already. TMBOTF can use water magic to drown people, or air magic to create a pressure difference capable of crushing someone. While not based on the same mechanics, it has somilar effects. I agree that your very open allowances, especially considering no explicit limts, make this almost too powerful of a system. But if someone is ill-trained, it could lead to some interesting consequences. A magical system based on how much knowledge a person has can create many possibilities, for spectacular success, or for spectacular failure. Limited knowledge could be the "weakness" here, though there are plenty of other possibilities.

Darzian · Oct 31, 2008

Limitations are advised when the magic system offers a lot to the magic user. If Gandalf could, say, teleport, then the entire story in LOTR vanishes. Similarly, note how in the Mountains, Gandalf comments that he CANNOT just create fire, and that he needs something to burn. Some magic systems do not require something to burn. This is a possible limitation in Gandalf's magic.

An example in Harry Potter would be the necessity of a wand. That is a limitation.

Without limitations, it's difficult to create any tension or suspense because the magician can just do everything necessary with his/her magic. This only applies to systems that make the user all powerful, of course.

OP: I like the idea, but you need to define a lot more. Water/ rock fine. But cold? That is a difference of temperature. Things need to be consistent and for that you need a very solid base for the magic system. In Avatar, we've got the four elements and that system is practically flawless (I couldn't find anything that seems imperfect in that).

SPMiller · Oct 31, 2008

Speaking of Tolkien, even he wasn't perfect. What I never understood about LotR is why they didn't put Frodo on a giant eagle and fly him to Mt Doom. They could've done it during that long stretch of time just after they drowned the Ringwraiths, and before Sauron made the Nine those nifty flying mounts. It's not like Mordor had dragons or anything to stop the eagles.

Darzian · Nov 1, 2008

SPMiller said:
Speaking of Tolkien, even he wasn't perfect. What I never understood about LotR is why they didn't put Frodo on a giant eagle and fly him to Mt Doom. They could've done it during that long stretch of time just after they drowned the Ringwraiths, and before Sauron made the Nine those nifty flying mounts. It's not like Mordor had dragons or anything to stop the eagles.

Indeed. Mordor lacked an aerial force till much later.

Cybernaught · Nov 1, 2008

I think the novel Shadowfall had the best magic system I've ever read. All magic was the product of a God's humours, or fluids. This pretty much limited magic to priests and servants, who were in the position to collect the humours. So naturally there became a black market for the humours, and a group gets hold of some and starts experimenting with it on their fetuses.

Great stuff.

tehuti88 · Nov 1, 2008

Without reading the other posts, this idea reminds me vaguely of the American Indian concept of "medicine"--spiritual/supernatural power inherent in almost all things, from animals and natural objects/locations (rain, clouds, rocks, lakes, etc.) to concepts/events (war, famine, love, etc.) and even, potentially, in manmade objects (shields, pipes, houses, etc.). People could interact with/manipulate the "essence" (medicine/spirits) of these things by praying or making offerings or even coercing them (though there's a sort of concept of equal exchange--those who coerce the spirits/medicine usually end up paying dearly in the end).

I use this concept in my own writing. It's not QUITE the same as yours, but that's what yours reminded me of. I like the idea, myself. Note that I'm unfamiliar with "Avatar" and "Magic" except in the most general terms.

What do you think of this magic system?

ZeroFlowne

zornhau

Swordsman

ZeroFlowne

DeleyanLee

Writing Anarchist

wickerman

Dale Emery

is way off topic

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Liosse de Velishaf

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Darzian

To-to-to-ron-to

Cybernaught

Decker

tehuti88

Mackinac Island Fanatic