Surviving the I.S.M ot the "I s*$% moment"

[Nateskate]

For most of us, writing isn't a team sport. It's one on one, non-contact (unless your writing erotica I guess), and at the end of the day, you have to be happy with yourself.

Well, some of you might not feel like it's a one on one sport. Sure, sometimes there's the agent, publisher, and market-triple-team. But if they have you triple teamed, you can't always blame yourself.

I played competative sports until my body wouldn't stand it anymore. Some players would beat themselves up if they missed a shot, "I s#&k", especially in a close game. And you'd have to make them get their head back in the game. Self-flagilation in the middle of a game is akin to throwing the game.

To the point, to be a writer, you have to fight through the I.S.M. Today, I had an "ISM". Book one is done, ready to push. The problem was restructuring book 2. I'm looking up at the game-clock, thinking we could win this thing, and I'm deciding how to end the book. I hit a scene that needed to be re-written. After fixing some seemingly unfixable chapters, I was elated, feeling it was all downhill. Then it happened, no matter how I worked this thing, I'm thinking, this is one of the most important chapters. It's not working. I might as well throw the whole series in the garbage!

When I got home, I sat in the driveway, and pulled out the chapter, and re-read the changes. Instead of being the worst chapter, which it seemed as I was reading it paragraph by paragraph, it almost seemed inspired, like someone else had written it.

Well, I'm not sure there won't be another I.S.M between now and the goal line. But I'm interested in your stories. Have you had any I.S.M? I can't imagine many of you haven't, no matter how good you are. In fact, the better you are, the more you expect from yourself. Feel free to share your own story. Thanks.

Nate.

[LightShadow]

Usually when I reach such an impasse, I put the book down for a couple weeks and forget about it. When I pick it up again, it's fresh, and my mind works fresh.

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

[black winged fighter]

I push through my bad moments, or switch to a different medium/art/WIP. When I go back and read my horrible messes, I repeat to myself that I have permission to write garbage, and that this is what rewrites are for.

Glad to hear about your revelation.

[azbikergirl]

I don't mind writing poorly in the first draft. I'm just trying to get the story down. But I have these moments when combing through what I'm trying to call my final draft. That's when it gets hard. In fact, I just had one of those this weekend. One of my beta readers kindly reassured me that the story is good and the writing is decent. Now, if only an agent or editor would tell me that, I might believe it!

[Nateskate]

I don't mind writing poorly in the first draft. I'm just trying to get the story down. But I have these moments when combing through what I'm trying to call my final draft. That's when it gets hard. In fact, I just had one of those this weekend. One of my beta readers kindly reassured me that the story is good and the writing is decent. Now, if only an agent or editor would tell me that, I might believe it!

This is not my first draft for book two. Really, I think the reason for the momentary slump, is losing perspective when endurance is required. I was hoping to sprint to the finish-line, and found myself in a marathon.

It would be so much easier if a novel was like a buffet table where you can pick a favorite. I can give ten fantastic chapters, and the story can fall apart in chapter 11, and people would still love it. However, if I have ten good chapters, and one bad one, it would be akin to a train derailing, especially a pivotal chapter.

I'm sure the same is true for a murder mystery and detective story. You can have a great beginning, and clunk up the twist, or give away the ending.

If the books fail, it would be terribly disappointing. However, the nature of the game is that if they succeed, we get to face this again for book three, and perhaps it will be like that until the story (series) is complete.

[Jamesaritchie]

Have you had any I.S.M? I can't imagine many of you haven't, no matter how good you are. In fact, the better you are, the more you expect from yourself. Feel free to share your own story. Thanks.

Nate.

I've had any number of such moments, but I learned a long time ago that I can't be trusted to judge anything I write. I've sold things for very good money that I thught were awful, and I've had things draw nothing but rejections that I thought were as good as anything I've ever written.

So I just do the best I can in the writing, then submit it and let the editors do their job.

A long, long time ago, an editor said that judging the writing was his job, so the best thing to do was finsih it, submit it, and let him do his job. That's what I learned to do.

The one exception to this was a novel I wrote, and then threw away. I thought it was bad, I didn't think it worked, and more important, I didn't think it was a novel I wanted published, even if I could make it work. I'd guess that counts.

[Nateskate]

I don't mind writing poorly in the first draft. I'm just trying to get the story down. But I have these moments when combing through what I'm trying to call my final draft. That's when it gets hard. In fact, I just had one of those this weekend. One of my beta readers kindly reassured me that the story is good and the writing is decent. Now, if only an agent or editor would tell me that, I might believe it!

Sounds like this has been a war for you, but be comforted you are not fighting alone. I looked at Maestro's comment on the multiple Query thread, how the man made a gameplan, but nothing was handed to him. And I think that's really the solution. You are going to attack until you win, instead of playing on the defensive.

This is an endurance race where stubborn persistance is a must. Well, I'm hoping I'm the exception, as most would. But at least that is more the rule than the exception.

But I know me. Lets say (hope hope/dream dream) book one sells four million copies, and book two five million. (Just picking random numbers signifying success). I'll be worried about flubbing book three, and trying to guess what the readers liked and disliked. Well, the whole story is written out, and I have to re-structure large parts of the remaining story. Even if I sold millions, I'd still be succeptable to the ISM. In fact, instead of dancing in the streets that I had two successfull books, I'd be kicking myself for getting into this mess, because I'd have about three more chances to screw this up. Other's might not be like that. But really, I think it depends on the thickness of our skin in the long run. And from what they say, thicker is better.

[Nateskate]

I've had any number of such moments, but I learned a long time ago that I can't be trusted to judge anything I write. I've sold things for very good money that I thught were awful, and I've had things draw nothing but rejections that I thought were as good as anything I've ever written.

So I just do the best I can in the writing, then submit it and let the editors do their job.

A long, long time ago, an editor said that judging the writing was his job, so the best thing to do was finsih it, submit it, and let him do his job. That's what I learned to do.

The one exception to this was a novel I wrote, and then threw away. I thought it was bad, I didn't think it worked, and more important, I didn't think it was a novel I wanted published, even if I could make it work. I'd guess that counts.

I think I understand what you are saying about the novel you tossed. I remember coming up with an idea, and I wrote alot of it out, and simply felt it was too controversial, and put it aside. Even with my work in progress, I think about people, and how they think. I think the greatest good that could come would be that people enjoy the story, and glean some insights from it.

But my greatest fear, and I'd feel like putting a warning sticker on the book, in case someone got the wrong idea. "Please, if you read this, don't be a moron. It is a fantasy, so please don't go out and start another religion. The beings in this book are types, metaphors, and allegories at best, and others are complete fabrications."

I feel like my writing is improving, and in some ways, because I had nowhere to go but up. So, when I re-read the earliest version of the story, I'm thinking, "Let's see; do I need ritalin (for attention deficit disorder) or lithium (for bipolar/manic depressive disorder) or haldol (for psychotic disorder)? No, I'm not psychotic! I am a ADD though, but I was thinking, "How could I have thought this was good prose? Great story, but some really bad prose."

I talked to a friend who is a very bright woman who loves fantasy and has read the first version of the story. She said she thought it was great and didn't notice the bad prose. Well, she's a professional counselor, who used to some editing. So, perhaps it's not that my prose was as horrible as I thought. However, I'd say it wasn't up to the standard most publishers would require.

In two years from now, will I hold myself to a higher standard than now? Will I look back on my story (if published) and kick myself for not doing it better? Maybe. I read where some people never read their story after it's been published, because they will kick themselves over things they think they should have done differently.

[Jamesaritchie]

In two years from now, will I hold myself to a higher standard than now? Will I look back on my story (if published) and kick myself for not doing it better? Maybe. I read where some people never read their story after it's been published, because they will kick themselves over things they think they should have done differently.

It was something along those lines with the novel.

As for holding yourself to a higher standard in a couple of years, you probably will. Not a bad thing at all.

I have taken to reading my old published stories. I find some of them hold up even better now than I thought they did when I wrote them. In others, I see serious flaws that make me wonder why anyone bought them.

When I sell reprint writes to an old story I almost always do a bit of a rewrite, and sometimes a major rewrite, because I see flaws now that I missed then.

[Fillanzea]

SF writer Elizabeth Bear calls it the suck monkey. I like that.

My one failsafe cure is to read bad/good fiction. This is a term I'm borrowing from some comic artist who described his own work as bad/good.

There are good/good works of art, that do everything well. It's depressing to read those because it seems, when the suck monkey's on your shoulder, that you'll never write half that well. There are good/bad works of art, where the level of technique is quite high but it's ultimately kind of hollow and pointless. There are bad/bad works of art, that don't do anything that well. These can be okay for feeling better about your own writing. But best of all is bad/good, which are works of art that have obvious mistakes in points of technique, but it doesn't matter, because the heart is there and the spirit is there and you see past whatever technical flaws there are and touch the reason you want to write.

And they tell me, it doesn't matter if I'm not that good a writer. I can write something with heart regardless.

(I'm a bit uncomfortable splitting up 'heart' and technique like this, because it's much much easier to get across the power and emotion when your technique is good, but haven't you ever read something or listened to something or seen something that was perfect in spite/because of its flaws?)

I like what the Japanese rock band Bump of Chicken says:

It doesn't matter if you can't sing
Someday you'll start out on a journey
And hold this song tight in your heart.

[Nateskate]

It was something along those lines with the novel.

As for holding yourself to a higher standard in a couple of years, you probably will. Not a bad thing at all.

I have taken to reading my old published stories. I find some of them hold up even better now than I thought they did when I wrote them. In others, I see serious flaws that make me wonder why anyone bought them.

When I sell reprint writes to an old story I almost always do a bit of a rewrite, and sometimes a major rewrite, because I see flaws now that I missed then.

Ideas flow like a fountain to me. But prose is like throwing me in a cage with a pro-wrestler. It twists me in knots before I get it right.

When I do re-writes, sometimes I'm thinking, "This will never work. What a disaster." There were parts I thought I'd have to cut out of the story, thinking I couldn't make them fit.

Well, some parts I do slice and dice, and I love it when I can make it leaner and meaner, chopping pages at a time. But there are other parts that actually thrill me, because when they work, I literally feel a sense of wonder that I wrote it.

It's never immediate. I print copies of the story in sections. And I correct it paragraph by paragraph. I won't re-read it until I type in all the corrections. So, sometimes I'm not anticipating it will be that great, because paragraph by paragraph it was a chore.

I literally love parts of this story. Others have fallen in love with parts of the story. (I haven't given a complete copy to anyone, mostly book one and sections of book two.) Now, if I can get that domino effect, agent, publisher, public, to love it, I'll be happy. (I think)

[LightShadow]

Let me tell those who say that it gets difficult when a slip of endurance appears - - Writing is a craft. Art. Artists love what they do, and it is never work (even when it is work). I am at my computer every night. I have an agent, now, and we're looking for a publisher. I'm doing some editing on the novel, and working on my next novel at this time...and I work construction. 14 hours a day, 6 days a week, dirty, grimy, muscle killing construction. I have the endurance to keep writing because I want it bad enough. Techniques for finding time to write, or getting over writer's blocks is minor stuff if you have a strong enough desire, and are dedicated. A professional is an amateur who didn't give up.

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

[Nateskate]

SF writer Elizabeth Bear calls it the suck monkey. I like that.

My one failsafe cure is to read bad/good fiction. This is a term I'm borrowing from some comic artist who described his own work as bad/good.

There are good/good works of art, that do everything well. It's depressing to read those because it seems, when the suck monkey's on your shoulder, that you'll never write half that well. There are good/bad works of art, where the level of technique is quite high but it's ultimately kind of hollow and pointless. There are bad/bad works of art, that don't do anything that well. These can be okay for feeling better about your own writing. But best of all is bad/good, which are works of art that have obvious mistakes in points of technique, but it doesn't matter, because the heart is there and the spirit is there and you see past whatever technical flaws there are and touch the reason you want to write.

And they tell me, it doesn't matter if I'm not that good a writer. I can write something with heart regardless.

(I'm a bit uncomfortable splitting up 'heart' and technique like this, because it's much much easier to get across the power and emotion when your technique is good, but haven't you ever read something or listened to something or seen something that was perfect in spite/because of its flaws?)

I like what the Japanese rock band Bump of Chicken says:

It doesn't matter if you can't sing
Someday you'll start out on a journey
And hold this song tight in your heart.

Yes, indeed. It's the "I suck less" phenomina. And that has been a help to me, seeing something in print and thinking, "Yeah, I suck less than that. I might as well write a book." LOL. But it's true.

[LightShadow]

When you think you suck, read some of the garbage out there on the shelves of the bookstores. Most of us write better than a lot of those schmucks that have been published. Thing is, a writer is usually is own toughest critic.

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

[Fillanzea]

Yes, indeed. It's the "I suck less" phenomina. And that has been a help to me, seeing something in print and thinking, "Yeah, I suck less than that. I might as well write a book." LOL. But it's true.

Hmm... what I was trying to say is that "I suck less" works sometimes, but it's more helpful to me when I realize that suckitude is almost irrelevant if you're truly excited and sincere and honest about your story.

"I suck less than this" backfires when I let myself think about all the published authors who suck, and if they can get published even though they suck, why can't I? (I speak as someone who's had three novels trunked, alas). And then I get all bitter about the publishing industry. But the publishing industry actually does a middling-to-very-good job of getting the books that people want to read into places where they will be read, so there's very little reason to be bitter about it.

[LightShadow]

I've had one book rejected, and I have one right now being represented by an agent. Thing is, I'm glad that I got rejected and moaned and groaned, because out of it I matured and became a better writer. Funny thing is, even though I thought my manuscript was ready, after sending it out I found myself wondering, "Did I forget anything? Is it good enough? Did I omit enough unneccessary words? Did I use too many adverbs? and so on and so on...

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

[Nateskate]

Let me tell those who say that it gets difficult when a slip of endurance appears - - Writing is a craft. Art. Artists love what they do, and it is never work (even when it is work). I am at my computer every night. I have an agent, now, and we're looking for a publisher. I'm doing some editing on the novel, and working on my next novel at this time...and I work construction. 14 hours a day, 6 days a week, dirty, grimy, muscle killing construction. I have the endurance to keep writing because I want it bad enough. Techniques for finding time to write, or getting over writer's blocks is minor stuff if you have a strong enough desire, and are dedicated. A professional is an amateur who didn't give up.

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs (http://www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs)

It's impressive that you are that dedicated to your craft. It shows you do love it. And with that determination, you can go very far.

Much of this isn't really about love, because many of us write, and have written for years. It's about expectations, and shooting for certain levels of accomplishment, which bring things to the table beside your love for writing.

In a sense, if this was all about writing, I'll shoot for a certain level of entertainment, and begin posting in the "Share your works" thread, or some other public web-place. I'll get some slaps on the back, perhaps some, "Is that the best you can do?"

Some people have greater gifts and abilities. Some have natural prose, but limited ideas. Others have a treasure trove of ideas and limited prose. There are so many parts to writing. Some just snap books out like they were tossing stones on a pond. Others go through hard labor for a lifetime to get one book published.

There are books I think I can write very easily. I just didn't happen to choose one. I picked a high degree of difficulty story (for me). I hope it doesn't take me as long as it took Tolkien to complete LOTR (over ten years) I hope it gets published period. Perhaps you can look at it like dominos, in that if you change direction at any time, you have to move all the dominos behind it. It took several years just to write out the rough draft of the entire story (whole series) From there, I decided to make major changes, add characters, delete and add. Every time, it's changing rows of dominos instead of one page or one chapter.

Even so, the stress of writers isn't "our love" for writing. If we don't have that love, which I do, we're dead in the water. It's about making it work for "the agents", "the publishers", and eventually for marketers who will either push your book or plummet it into the land of obscurity.

Ultimately what I'm doing is worth it, or it's a flop. It just so happens that if it's a flop, it's a very huge flop, that sapped a great deal of time and resources. I have a ton of other non-fiction waiting to be written, and in retrospect, if this (Epic Fantasy) isn't worth it, it's set me back years on what I could have done.

[Nateskate]

When you think you suck, read some of the garbage out there on the shelves of the bookstores. Most of us write better than a lot of those schmucks that have been published. Thing is, a writer is usually is own toughest critic.

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs (http://www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs)

Yes, I think I'm my worst critic as well. But what scares/comforts me, is that I'm not critical of most of the story anymore. Either its much better than I hoped, or I'm delusional, or else I've just lowered my standards ten notches.

I always loved my story, in terms of a concept. I just wondered if I was qualified to write it. I wrote it out in rough form with about 60 people reading it. They loved enough of the story to keep encouraging me.

When enough people said, "You should publish this," I decided I can't have 60 copies of the story out there, and wrote the rest of it behind closed doors. One friend, a fantasy lover, read the entire first draft of the story and thought I should send it to a publisher as is.

Well, she's intelligent and loves fantasy, but I knew my prose wasn't up to snuff. So, I went through and straightened out the first draft. Some parts were great, but others were gummy, like trudging through mud.

So, I began a major re-write. When that was done, I realized I had a monster. Three huge books. (One over 170,000 words) Well, there's a downside to trying to throw something at a publisher they don't want, and trying to tell them to make an exception for you. If they'd prefer an 85,000 word book, why bang your head against the wall for five years. So, I banged my head against the wall another six months to make book one lean and mean.

I realized I had to restructure the whole thing, and change parts. What it boiled down to, was anticipating what the market is looking for. Faster pace, story divided into shorter segments- perhaps 5 books instead of three, which meant changing some endings, and beginnings for a natural flow.

Yes, my situation may be absurd. But you can imagine, after doing all that, to get near the end of book two, and find key parts that just didn't want to fit. I really did say, "Why am I doing this?"

[Nateskate]

Hmm... what I was trying to say is that "I suck less" works sometimes, but it's more helpful to me when I realize that suckitude is almost irrelevant if you're truly excited and sincere and honest about your story.

"I suck less than this" backfires when I let myself think about all the published authors who suck, and if they can get published even though they suck, why can't I? (I speak as someone who's had three novels trunked, alas). And then I get all bitter about the publishing industry. But the publishing industry actually does a middling-to-very-good job of getting the books that people want to read into places where they will be read, so there's very little reason to be bitter about it.

Yes, I see your point. I'm not hopeful of joining the proverbial, "stink-fest", and be one of the other writers, other's would say, "Nate stinks...I could do better...why don't I write a book?"

Well, I had a story, and wasn't thinking of publishing it, just perfecting it, and perhaps placing it somewhere on the internet. I went to Barnes and Nobles searching for fantasies that suited me. I wasn't finding it. I expected to find dozens of great stories. Instead I found prose that seemed awkward, re-told stories, building on stale ideas. Perhaps I just have weird tastes, and I'm too picky.

I had this Epiphany, "my story seems better than these, at least too me, why not try to publish it?" When I had that Ephiphany, I also realized I had a ton of homework to do. Why? I hardly think of myself as a great writer. Some might flow like the nile when it comes to prose, but I had to wrestle with sentence structure, paragraphs, beating them into shape, and bruised and bloodied, get up and take on another page.

"...suckitude is almost irrelevant if you're truly excited and sincere and honest about your story."

Oh yes! Absolutely. I was excited to finish book one, and believe in it. Now that I've restructured and edited much of book two, I'm even more excited. I love the characters I've created, deep and complex. I enjoy the romances, the tension between two people attracted to each other, knowing the reader will be rooting (Beta reader feedback) for certain couplings. Don't look for soft "Arwen" types. I've enjoyed throwing very attractive, screwed up people, into the mix, who create a love/hate tension, as they sort out what's important to them, and try to figure out whether to trust this other person, wondering if they are who they appear to be.

And for whatever reason, there are a great deal of fork in the road choices, as well as a host of people who are running from something. All the while, their world is threatened, because they can't figure out, each other isn't the real enemy.

I love the fact that kingdoms, the fate of a world, perhaps the Universe is at stake. I love the complexity of the dark alliance of creatures, their powers, and their malice. How creatures having no goodness, can almost be pitiable, and provide moments of tension, but also comic relief. They hate each other, undermine each other, and all that keeps them together is a common goal, they hate these walking sticks of flesh (humans) more than each other, and need to anhilate this race to accomplish their higher goal.

The creatures, good and bad, are interesting, worthy of an Epic Fantasy. And here's the part that was very difficult. No Dwarves. No Elves. No Dragons! Ah, but there's fire! The story is not the next chapter of "LOTR", "Arthur", "Atlantis", or a space oddessy.

I'm not saying I wasn't inspired by, or borrowed ideas, from other sources. But this story forced me to go deeper than I ever intended, to world build, and hope others fall in love with the the same creatures and protagonists that I've grown to love.

[LightShadow]

All in all we know what our best stuff is, and that's what you send. Interesting, though, is my final product is never what I perceived it to be when I first set out on the journey of concocting the tale.

[Nateskate]

Hmm... what I was trying to say is that "I suck less" works sometimes, but it's more helpful to me when I realize that suckitude is almost irrelevant if you're truly excited and sincere and honest about your story.

"I suck less than this" backfires when I let myself think about all the published authors who suck, and if they can get published even though they suck, why can't I? (I speak as someone who's had three novels trunked, alas). And then I get all bitter about the publishing industry. But the publishing industry actually does a middling-to-very-good job of getting the books that people want to read into places where they will be read, so there's very little reason to be bitter about it.

I guess the answer to the question depends on Genre. There has to be a way to generate positive name recognition, and to present things. It's like fishing with the right bait. It may not be the wrong pole, just the wrong bait.

I've made "major" changes to my books, simply by reading threads as to what publishers want. I've changed size, content, pacing. It may not be a formula for success. Rather, it's a formula to avoid instant failure. But I have nothing to boast about, just hope.

I like at it like finding my wife, a diamond in the rough, who is quite stunning in the right setting. All of the "is she the ones" matter only until you find the one. Every rejection is moot. I'm pathetically glad to say that quite a number of women cried when I got married. I was engaged to one, who while I was away, re-united with the previous boyfriend. (I was the temporary rebound). A year before, I dated a girl. She was very pretty, but at the time I just wasn't throwing myself into the relationship, trying to make up my mind what I wanted, (I was not without fault), but then I made up my mind that I wanted her exclusively, and she dumpted me, because she had a little thing going on the side, and she was making up her mind. He was from a wealthy family, a sure thing. So I ended up on the short end. I later learned both cried when I married, regretting it wasn't them. Sort of twisted vindication.

Well, I don't want any publishers or agents to waste any tears, but eventually, when I'm with the one, I wouldn't mind if they were a bit jealous.

[Nateskate]

All in all we know what our best stuff is, and that's what you send. Interesting, though, is my final product is never what I perceived it to be when I first set out on the journey of concocting the tale.

I think it's better to surprise yourself. In my mind, that's how inspiration works. Something comes to you out of the blue, unplanned, but makes the whole better, even takes it in a new direction.

My story is faster, darker, than when first written. It is still changing on the fly, in terms of what will happen with books 3 and 4. I now see the origional as only a Template, which can be changed.

But it has that feel of mythology, in the sense that you go back and forth between Thor, Odin, and their issues, to the humans and their issues, and how they are interwoven.

But there are no "gods" in my story, though there are indications of an all powerful creator in the story, moving mysteriously behind the scenes. These creatures who possess tremendous powers are a race from another realm. One of the things that corrupted those who turn to evil, was the realizion of disparity of power. It starts in their own ranks, where some are proverbial superstars, and it goes to their heads.

It birthed arrogance in their hearts, which lead to remarkably instant malevolent transformations. Instead of seeking friendship, they gave in to their desire to be "gods" lording their wills. The most powerful of these creatures were far superior to their own breathren, who themselves had tremendous powers in relation to the weaker race.

A division takes place in the super race, leading to a war. But this contention also spawns jealousy. The Virtuous prefer fellowship with these weaklings from this other realm, over the Dark Ones, who see evil as a virtue. The Virtuous see good in this weaker race, while they distance themselves from those who exalted themselves, disfellowshiping with them. The Dark Ones dispise the weaker race, and can't speak of them without contempt.

[LightShadow]

My book began with darkness in mind, and it turned into an interesting study of what it is to be human. The dark element is still there, but it is now only implied. That is true creativity. Or I like what Stephen King says (and I've done this myself), "I lean more heavily on intuition . . . The situation comes first . . . I have never demanded of a set of characters that they do things my way. On the Contrary, I want them to do things their way." So, sometimes, I step aside and see how the characters will get out of whatever situation I put them in, and sometimes, it surprises me.

[Nateskate]

My book began with darkness in mind, and it turned into an interesting study of what it is to be human. The dark element is still there, but it is now only implied. That is true creativity. Or I like what Stephen King says (and I've done this myself), "I lean more heavily on intuition . . . The situation comes first . . . I have never demanded of a set of characters that they do things my way. On the Contrary, I want them to do things their way." So, sometimes, I step aside and see how the characters will get out of whatever situation I put them in, and sometimes, it surprises me.

That's an interesting thought. And I supose it's a great place to start. There was an old 50s or 60s sci-fi movie about a space station on a planet, and an evil energy monster attacks. It was a cool, but scary movie for its time, and it turns out this evil monster was really the jealous anger in the woman's father's heart, somehow given form.

In my mind, evil begins with thoughts, in that it is not intrinsic to anything. "and he looked, and beheld...it was good". Not everyone believes Genesis, or see it more than a story, but it is a good place to draw metaphors from.

In my story, nothing starts good or evil, meerly innocent, having never been exposed to the possibility of evil, until choice presented itself. And it isn't the actions that are considered "evil", but the motivations. However, once something's thoughts are evil continuously, they are in fact, considered evil.
I think Tolkien once said that every great myth has to have a fall. And I think it's one of the most fascinating topics to ponder, what is good and what is evil? Obviously, it's a fine subtopic in a fantasy, in that you are creating situations that are looking into motives.

Sauron and Morgoth, bad guys in Tolkien's stories, were never beyond redemption. I didn't take that tact with my monsters. In a sense, I tried to picture pure evil, malice without any goodness. And in a sense, it adds comic relief to the story. It's a real test of imagination to come up with insult after insult, as they address their inferiors, in a sort of "Screwtape" letter way, except without the eloquence of a C.S.Lewis.

It also lends itself to a "go-for-broke" urgency, and you realize, you either win the war completely or lose it completely. There'll never be a peace treaty. Anything short of complete victory is only a temporary pause to regroup.

[LightShadow]

And I thought I was the only person that read the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. Goes to show how much positive influence can come from (from a societal point of view) such an unlikely source. I agree, of course. In fact, an important key to a successful story is that the characters grow, they speak the truth, and that they are surrounded by fresh images, rather than overused, mundane cliches. Their growth, in fact, will come naturally if you begin with innocence (and they are innocent, because as a writer you just birthed them). I don't mean innocence as a part of the characterization, I mean innocence in that they are new, and the reader doesn't quite know them yet.

[Nateskate]

And I thought I was the only person that read the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis. Goes to show how much positive influence can come from (from a societal point of view) such an unlikely source. I agree, of course. In fact, an important key to a successful story is that the characters grow, they speak the truth, and that they are surrounded by fresh images, rather than overused, mundane cliches. Their growth, in fact, will come naturally if you begin with innocence (and they are innocent, because as a writer you just birthed them). I don't mean innocence as a part of the characterization, I mean innocence in that they are new, and the reader doesn't quite know them yet.

Deep calls unto deep. I loved the concept of the screwtape letters, but wasn't a great fan of C.S. Lewis writing style. In a sense, I'd have prefered a "Poor-man's" version of the screwtape letters.

Yet, I wouldn't doubt his insights were seeds planted in my mind. I'm trying to capture the essence of "evil", and how complex it is for the human mind to grasp. In the sense (this is no big secret) in my story, and clear from a very early point (Not a spoiler) you can't have greater evil than someone who simply has contempt for life and wants to anhilate a species, especially for their own selfish reasoning. Yet it all makes perfect sense to these creatures who have their own agenda. In a sense, if we were the species in the book, they want to kill us simply because we get in the way of something they want. We haven't harmed them, we admirred them, respected them, and yet, they simply want us dead.

I think a super species wanting us dead makes for a great foil for a protagonist who is simply wanting to enjoy life, not get in anyone's way, and certainly doesn't see themselves as capable of even handling a small crises, let alone the fate of the universe. (I should remember these when I'm writing my query) But this is exactly where book two picks up.

Yet, the artful weaving within the story is in portraying how very intelligent beings (looks inwardly) can be as unsuspecting as Homer Simpson when it comes to insight. And in a sense, the race against destruction is never a race against the enemy as much as it is a race for insight in how we empower those who seek our anhilation. Is that evil beast, who has the strenth to tear apart a kingdom, the "real" enemy, or is it our lack of understanding of evil beasts within that is the "real" enemy?

In a screwtape way, evil is insidious. It doesn't always jump out. There is always a stage where evil appears innocent, even good. It is when the cute little tare reaches maturity that it is apparent to all it was never wheat. And I take great delight in portraying a progressive evolution of evil in both races. Can a grudge be more dangerous than a monster more powerful than an exploding volcano? Can a little anger and bitterness set wheels in motion that bring mankind to the brink of anhilation? In a metaphorical way, is the power of the devil worse than our empowering the devil?

Evil doesn't always appear big and nasty. Sometimes it appears as angels of light, especially if that works for them.

[LightShadow]

Often what's wrong cloaks itself as something that is right, and that is what my characters struggle with. Is an apparition a hallucination, a demon, a ghost, or a wonderful opportunity to learn and grow? Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. Evil, or the Devil, whichever, has created a perfect weapon against mankind, by convincing mankind that it does not exist.

[Sharon Mock]

Reviving this topic because I'm in the middle of my own ISM here and I desperately need to vent.

I've decided to apply to a writers' workshop. And I've told my husband about it, so I can't back out of it now.

What would make the most sense, I suppose, is to send in an excerpt and outline of my novel WIP, since it's what's been consuming my creative energy for the past several years. Except I don't have an outline, and it's resting right now and I've made a solemn oath not to take another look at it until the end of June -- past the application deadline.

Not a problem. I have a couple of short stories I can submit. And by 'a couple' I mean, literally, two. I'm not primarily a short-story writer and, as I said above, most of my creative energies have been going toward the novel recently. One of the short stories is clean and ready to go, and I'm quite fond of it. But the other...

Oh, I suppose it doesn't stink on ice. My writers' group had good things to say about it. But -- it just seems -- meh. It's got my patented Fuzzy Logic Epiphany Climax. Vague and ill-defined yearnings in search of a %$@&# plot.

Mostly I guess I'm putting too much pressure on myself. I know I can put words together in a professional manner -- I have the glowing rejection slips to prove it -- but I have yet to prove that I can put together a story that anybody but me will care about. And when you don't multi-task well, a novel becomes a very long and heavy egg-basket.

Well, now that I'm vented, I go back to editing. Because no matter how bad my ISM, I refuse to self-sabotage.

Wish me luck. :P

[LightShadow]

Well, now that I'm vented, I go back to editing. Because no matter how bad my ISM, I refuse to self-sabotage.

Wish me luck. :PGood luck, and hell, do what comes best, and write it.

[karenranney]

I never read one of my books once it's in print. I don't want to cringe.
However, the other day, I forced myself to pick up one of them and read a paragraph or two in the middle. Not bad. Hey, pretty good. But still, it could be better.

The urge to be a better writer is what keeps me excited about writing. I learn with every book. Hopefully, I get better with every book.

One of my rules: I can't edit a blank page, so I write.


Karen Ranney
Till Next We Meet, May 2005
USA Today Bestseller

[Sharon Mock]

Well, after venting, I sat down and plowed through the edits. It's still not the greatest story ever set to paper... but it's creditable enough. At worst it's an honest showcase of my most persistant writing flaws.

I guess the moral of the story is: ISMs pass.

A topical link (from http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/):

(note: contains objectionable language)

http://www.livejournal.com/users/scott_lynch/127371.html

[Nateskate]

Often what's wrong cloaks itself as something that is right, and that is what my characters struggle with. Is an apparition a hallucination, a demon, a ghost, or a wonderful opportunity to learn and grow? Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. Evil, or the Devil, whichever, has created a perfect weapon against mankind, by convincing mankind that it does not exist.

The majority of murders are committed by people who never anticipated they'd kill someone, and most of them are committed against people they love.

In the majority of cases these murderers never saw it coming. The truth is, they never had enough insight to recognize the clues, or they would have seen it coming. Evil doesn't look evil as a seed, or even as a root. In fact, it might look benign as a plant. Only after the fruit has spilled onto the ground, are people aware what they were dealing with.

However, if you have someone with insight, they might have shown them that murder at the root before it ever became a fruit. And really, those types of insight are best gained before there ever is a fruit.

At points in my story, you can piece things together, and you understand where someone is comming from. I love Tolkien's portrayal of Eowyn. She had a family, but she was lonely. She threw all her eggs into Aragorn's basket, and it comes out in the conversation before he enters the paths of the dead. Essentially she's saying, "If you go, I'd rather die, so why can't I die with you?"

And if you look deep into her conversation, she's not saying, "I want to go to Pelinor fields to fight for victory, I want to go there and die."

I'm not saying Eowyn is "Evil", but she has a deathwish. And if you see the societal place she is in, it all makes sense. She's orphaned. Her brother dies. The man who is supposed to be her father figure is "possessed" by Saruman. Her impoverished people are threatened. A healthy person can pick and choose their battles. She is essentially saying she wants to throw away her life. Some may say she's just noble, but I think there's more to it.

What's going on internally leads to actions. Eowyn isn't a great example, in that she didn't do great evil. But LOTR does give you enough information to understand what motivates people, which I think is great in a story.

[Nateskate]

Reviving this topic because I'm in the middle of my own ISM here and I desperately need to vent.

I've decided to apply to a writers' workshop. And I've told my husband about it, so I can't back out of it now.

What would make the most sense, I suppose, is to send in an excerpt and outline of my novel WIP, since it's what's been consuming my creative energy for the past several years. Except I don't have an outline, and it's resting right now and I've made a solemn oath not to take another look at it until the end of June -- past the application deadline.

Not a problem. I have a couple of short stories I can submit. And by 'a couple' I mean, literally, two. I'm not primarily a short-story writer and, as I said above, most of my creative energies have been going toward the novel recently. One of the short stories is clean and ready to go, and I'm quite fond of it. But the other...

Oh, I suppose it doesn't stink on ice. My writers' group had good things to say about it. But -- it just seems -- meh. It's got my patented Fuzzy Logic Epiphany Climax. Vague and ill-defined yearnings in search of a %$@&# plot.

Mostly I guess I'm putting too much pressure on myself. I know I can put words together in a professional manner -- I have the glowing rejection slips to prove it -- but I have yet to prove that I can put together a story that anybody but me will care about. And when you don't multi-task well, a novel becomes a very long and heavy egg-basket.

Well, now that I'm vented, I go back to editing. Because no matter how bad my ISM, I refuse to self-sabotage.

Wish me luck. :P

Hang in there. Of course we hope the best, and expect you'll get through this.

[Nateskate]

I never read one of my books once it's in print. I don't want to cringe.
However, the other day, I forced myself to pick up one of them and read a paragraph or two in the middle. Not bad. Hey, pretty good. But still, it could be better.

The urge to be a better writer is what keeps me excited about writing. I learn with every book. Hopefully, I get better with every book.

One of my rules: I can't edit a blank page, so I write.


Karen Ranney
Till Next We Meet, May 2005
USA Today Bestseller

Karen, I'm sure some people are prose kings and queens, but not me. For me, concepts come first, and I try to get them on paper while the ideas are fresh. But when I go back to correct, I almost never dislike the character, or the action. However, I'll want to kick myself over the phrasing and execution.

I see some pages like a block of stone that needs to be chiseled. In fact, there were parts of my story I faced with nothing short of dread, "How am I going to fix this to make it work?"

Rule of thumb, the harder it was to fix (And some seemed beyond fixing) the more powerful the scene. Obviously, if you can't fix, slice and dice, but you can't give up on the important ones.

If I had published my story (s) a year ago, as planned, before the re-writes, I'd be embarrassed. Now, I'm actually loving parts of my story, which to me is a hopeful sign.

[Avalon]

Bumping this, because I've hit an "I %$#@" moment.

I'm about 15000 words into a novel that is outlined. I thought the outlining would make the writing faster, but initially, it's slowing it down (I'm managing only 600-900 words a day, as opposed to the 1250 I'm aiming for). When I apply BIC and just type-type-type, what comes out reads, basically, like "See Jane run." Very silly, very basic. Yet, it gets me over 1000 words. They're just not /good/ words.

Is this one of those horrible moments in the middle of the process? Should I be slowing down, speeding up, trunking the thing? Just powering through until I have 100,000 words of "See Jane run. Look, she ordered a pizza"?

I'm not used to working from an outline, and I'd be very grateful for advice from outliners about this process. My previous attempts were of the "organic" type. There were five of them, and I ended up stumped and hopeless on each of them, and trunked the books. I think I'm a little too meticulous to be organic. I'm actually liking the outline way, I think. It's certainly solved the problems I had before, or some of them. But, from someone who hasn't tried it this way before... is this how it's supposed to go? Am I missing something?

Thank you in advance for any insight you might have!

[Nateskate]

Bumping this, because I've hit an "I %$#@" moment.

I'm about 15000 words into a novel that is outlined. I thought the outlining would make the writing faster, but initially, it's slowing it down (I'm managing only 600-900 words a day, as opposed to the 1250 I'm aiming for). When I apply BIC and just type-type-type, what comes out reads, basically, like "See Jane run." Very silly, very basic. Yet, it gets me over 1000 words. They're just not /good/ words.

Is this one of those horrible moments in the middle of the process? Should I be slowing down, speeding up, trunking the thing? Just powering through until I have 100,000 words of "See Jane run. Look, she ordered a pizza"?

I'm not used to working from an outline, and I'd be very grateful for advice from outliners about this process. My previous attempts were of the "organic" type. There were five of them, and I ended up stumped and hopeless on each of them, and trunked the books. I think I'm a little too meticulous to be organic. I'm actually liking the outline way, I think. It's certainly solved the problems I had before, or some of them. But, from someone who hasn't tried it this way before... is this how it's supposed to go? Am I missing something?

Thank you in advance for any insight you might have!

It's a nature nurture issue. The question is which is the source of frustration, and which is the solution. I can't speak for all writers, but I find my prose of two years ago terribly lacking. Perhaps my nature spoke awkwardly, so I had to nurture a new way of speaking.

At first, it seemed daunting to pick each paragraph apart, and figure out how to say the same thing better, but the more you do it, the more natural it will become. You'll become aware of writing tendencies.

I can understand why you'd feel anxious. I once looked at fixing some of my clunkienst chapters, as diving off an aircraft carrier. I didn't even want to get ten feet from the edge. But those chapters are now some of my favorites. If it means anything, I once felt so flawed as a writer, I felt like I'd never be able to get it publisher ready. Now, I'm rather optomistic.