October Book Study- A Deepness in the Sky

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Fenika

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Hello, and welcome to the SF/F, F/SF Book Study.

This thread is for discussion of A Deepness in the Sky by Vernor Vinge. ***Spoilers*** will be streaking through this thread unpredictably. You have been warned.

If anyone wants to compare to previous book studies:
Ender's Game (August)
Lies of Locke Lamora (September)

Thank you to Broken Fingers for starting the book study!

Cheers,
Christina

-----------

Here is the list, compiled by Fingers, of possible discussion topics. Feel free to tackle something off the list or come up with your own points.

-----------

First of all: Did you enjoy the book? Why or why not?
What was your impression of it?

And I’ll list some of the possible things we can discuss:

The Beginning:
- How effective was the opening hook?
- How effective was the first sentence? The first paragraph? The first page? The first chapter?
- When were you pulled into the author’s world? By the end of the first chapter?
- If not, when?
- How do you think this was accomplished? Or why do you think it wasn’t accomplished?
- What would you have done to change it/make it better?
- If you were an editor, what would your reaction be to the first chapter?
- Why do you think the average reader liked it so much?
And more…

The Protagonist:
- What did you like/dislike about the protagonist?
- How did the author introduce the protagonist?
- How did the author get you to become invested in the protagonist?
- What was different about the protagonist as opposed to other protagonists? What was the same? Did the author make the protag distinguishable? If so, how?
- What techniques did the author use to show the protagonist throughout the story?
- What were some of the characteristics the author gave the character and how did they work/not work?

The Characters:
- Did the author make the characters come alive for you?
- How did he/she do this?
- How were they described?
- How were they distinctive?
And more…

The Setting:
- Was the author’s world convincing?
- Did he/she make you feel you were there? How?
- What about the setting did you like? Not like?
- What would you have done differently?
And more….

The Plot/Story:
- Did you enjoy it? Why or why not?
- Was it different or similar to other plotlines in the genre? How?
- Was it believable? Predictable?
- Were there any twists, turns or surprises?
- Would you have thought of it? How does it compare to your own plotline of your WIP?
- Did it pull you through or did you have to wade through it?
- How was this done or how do you think it should’ve been done?
- If you were buying stories for a publisher, and this manuscript hit your desk (not knowing what you do now about its sales) would you have bought it or expected it to be successful?
- Why do you think the buying public enjoyed it so much?
- What variations, if any, would you have added to the storyline/plot?
And more…

The Style:
- What did you think of the author’s style of writing? Like it? Hate it?
- How much do you think this had to do with the success of the book, if any?
- What type of POV was used? How effective was it? Would the book have turned out different if the POV were done differently?
- How removed was the author from the story or how intrusive?
And more…

The Structure:
- How did the author unfold the story?
- Were the beginning, middle and end equally strong?
- How effective was the way the author gave you all the information?
Was it straightforward? Suspenseful? Predictable? Surprising?
- Could it have been done another way?
- Was it a linear structure or did the scenes jump around? How did this add/detract from the story or your enjoyment of it?
And more…..

The Theme:
- Was there any? What was it?
- Did you think it had an impact on your enjoyment of the story?
- Was it blatant or subtle?
- Do you think the average reader registered this?
- Do you think it may have affected him/her or contributed in any way to the success of the book?
And more…

Conflict:
- What was the main conflict?
- How was it handled?
- Was it a large part of the story or did the author keep it lying under the surface?
- What other conflicts did the author use in the story and when? (Internal and external.)
- What purpose did they serve?
- Would the story have been as enjoyable with less conflict? More?
- What types of conflict could’ve added to the story? Which conflicts subtracted from the story?
And more…

Dialogue:
- Was it realistic?
- Was it readable?
- How did the author handle ‘tags’?
- Was there a lot of dialogue or a little?
- Were there dialects? Slang? Profanity? Vulgarity?
And more…

The Ending:
- Was it satisfying? Why or why not?
- Did it come as a surprise or did you see it coming from page two?
- Would you have ended it the same?
- Was everything resolved?
- Would you be able to write a sequel?
- Would you buy another book from this author?
And more….
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Fenika

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Right. I guess I better get reading, eh? ;)

Be back in a few days...
 

ELMontague

I skipped over your comments, because I haven't read it yet. But wanted to let folks know I found it on the shelf at Borders. No issues, it was just there. I'll read next week and post my comments after.
 

Pthom

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Perhaps, because the book is so long, the discussion can continue past the end of the month?
 

Smiling Ted

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Okay, you winkled me out of hiding.

I really like this book. There are parts that dragged a little (e.g. the kidnapping of the kids) but overall, it's well worth it. Some of the things that impress me:

1. The way Vinge conveys a sense of the enormous distances and times involved - something that usually doesn't happen in science fiction with FTL travel. A prologue that's a manhunt that takes place over thousands of years and hundreds of star systems? A PROLOGUE? That's terrific.

2. Focus - one of the most original, realistic, and therefore frightening notions of mind control I've encountered.

3. The attempt to imagine a realistic STL interstellar culture.

4. The scenes in which the Qeng Ho invade/rescue a collapsing planetary civilization.

Some of the weaknesses:

1. The human characterization could have been a little richer - although Tomas Nau was an excellent "champagne villain."
 
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JoNightshade

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I read this book about 2 months ago so I'll feel free to comment. :)

Sherkaner made this book for me. I might actually consider naming my kid Sherkaner, except for the fact that naming my kid after a giant spider might give him some sort of bizarre complex.

Other than that I don't have much to say. I loved it. I love books about strange alien cultures, I love books with great characterization, and I love books with cool science stuff. Deepness had all three in one.
 

Tasmin21

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I just finished this today. Normally, I could tear through a book this size in two days, tops, but this is so far outside my genre-comfort zone that it took me longer.

My biggest complaint about this book is actually more of a reader malfunction than a writer malfunction. I understand the concepts of weightless living and bazillion-year star travel on an intellectual level, but when it came to reading about it and trying to image it in my head with the rest of the story elements, those were the things that jarred me out of the story every time. I guess I just had a hard time remembering that they were floating down hallways, not walking, and every time it was mentioned I had to stop and remind myself.

I have to say that the end drew me in more than the entire rest of the book. Everything from the spider-lurk reveal on. I was glued to my seat, so to speak, waiting to see how it would all play out once they knew of each other. Before that....eh. I had a hard time connecting with the characters.
 

ELMontague

I will finish Deepness tomorrow and comment tomorrow night. 10 days is a long read for me. But I have really enjoyed it. Excellent recommendation.
 

ELMontague

Excellent book -- Glad I read it.

First of all: Did you enjoy the book? Why or why not?
What was your impression of it?

I liked the book, particularly for the way he built an entire cosmos with things that are just out of reach to us. I could really get into the idea of this world being a possible future, or past, for us.

I plan on recommending this to a number of others as a perfect example of what scifi should be.

The Beginning:
- How effective was the opening hook?
- How effective was the first sentence? The first paragraph? The first page? The first chapter?
- When were you pulled into the author’s world? By the end of the first chapter?
- If not, when?
- How do you think this was accomplished? Or why do you think it wasn’t accomplished?
- What would you have done to change it/make it better?
- If you were an editor, what would your reaction be to the first chapter?
- Why do you think the average reader liked it so much?
And more…

Actually, the beginning of the book would have lost me. It would be a shame if I had only read to Sammy Park finding Pham Nuwen in an old retirment center on Triland and given up, but I probably would have. I kept on reading because of my faith in you guys having good taste. You didn't let me down.

Truthfully, I wasn't really captured by the book until we got to Sherkaner Underhill driving to Lands Command. At that point, I was ready to bite. That's actually a pretty good trudge into the book. This all might be my own bias though. I had images of A Space Odessey: 2001 through the whole first part of the book, not really my bag.

The main reason I wasn't pulled in is that I didn't really have a goal in mind. I didn't know why I cared what we were doing. The idea of the On/Off star was interesting, but not so much that it held me. I needed more why. As soon as we learned about Sherkaner, I knew that this would be a first contact book, which is cool.

As an editor, I would ask for "The Man" to be replaced with something more concrete. I know he was hiding the whole Pham Nuwen thing, but it bugged me. He could have just called him Nuwen and let us try to guess that Pham Trinli was Nuwen, and it's not like we would have known about Canberra.

The Protagonist:
- What did you like/dislike about the protagonist?
- How did the author introduce the protagonist?
- How did the author get you to become invested in the protagonist?
- What was different about the protagonist as opposed to other protagonists? What was the same? Did the author make the protag distinguishable? If so, how?
- What techniques did the author use to show the protagonist throughout the story?
- What were some of the characteristics the author gave the character and how did they work/not work?

Sherkaner was the protagonist in my mind. I liked him right from the start. The fact that he was a little outside the norm and crazy smart appealed to me. I think that appeals to lots of scifi readers; we all think we are crazy smart and penned up rebels. It was very easy to identify.

You might say that Ezr Vinh was the protagonist, but I thought he was a weanie and didn't identify much at all. Or maybe it was Pham, didn't like him.

Like the Qeng Ho, I became invested in the Underhill family and really wanted to see them win.

The Characters:
- Did the author make the characters come alive for you?
- How did he/she do this?
- How were they described?
- How were they distinctive?
And more…

Obviously, the core of characters were rich.

Pham Trinli/Nuwen was very well developed, regardless of how much I liked him. The character had purpose and a history. I was pulled into the story of his ransom from Canberra and his love story with Sura. During that part of the story, I was invested in Pham. I even held onto it through the end of the book.

Ezr Vinh was framed by his inferiority complex as a lesser Vinh and his blind adoration of Trixia. I somehow knew that wasn't going to work out. Unfortunately, I don't think Vinh was well enough developed to fill the shoes he was in. Vinge didn't foreshadow his strengths enough. Perhaps a little more backbone in the very early scenes. Or a better set up of his family role. I had pegged him as a discarded rich kid from the welcome dinner with Brughel.

Trixia Bonsol was a little flat. Of course she was focused so we only really had her framed out by the discussion about art.

Qiwi was probably the strongest Qeng Ho character outside Pham. I thought Vinge did a good job of showing her growth and development. I honestly don't think he gave us enough to have her romantically involved with Vinh in the end, but I understood the choice.

Tomas Nau was a classic villian, strong, attractive, arrogant. If this had been a romance, the women would have all wanted to sleep with him. He filled his role nicely. I would have liked to see more character development with him though to make him a more filled out vilian. I personally prefer my villians to be heroes from at least one viable stand point. Vinge set him up as a guy we had to hate. I want to have to choose right from wrong, but regret having to give up wrong. I wanted Nau to bleed. He could have had an uglier death.

In the same way that Nau was a classic villian, Brughel was the equally matched half to the pair. Another classic villian who would gladly subvert villian number one. There was no real development to him. I minor nod to a deeper character when Nau realized he needed to let Brughel have his toys to keep him under control, but not much beyond that.

Anne Reynolt the Frenkish Orc -- I liked her development. He sets her up to be not much more than a computer, but slowly gives us more. I actually think Vinge gave us the best character development for a Emergent with Anne.

Sherkaner Underhill -- Loved this character. As I said above, I think he is the protagonist. We got the most time with Sherkaner's past. Vinge let us follow along on his ride to the top and eventual success over the aliens. i bought into his role, his family, his genius. Starting with him selling some crazy idea to the army was brilliant. And his little slips into ubersmart distractions just painted a wonderful picture of him. My favorite character.

General Victory Smith -- Vinge did a job only slightly less complete with Victory as he did with Underhill. I really enjoy the role reversal In a strange way, I saw my mom in the General.

The cobblies -- I'd follow them into a second book.

Seargant Unnerby -- He was also a charicature of sidekicks, but he was one that I liked. I enjoyed have Hrunker along for the ride and able to do his part.

Perdue was just the Underhill gangs Nau/Brughel.

The Setting:
- Was the author’s world convincing?
- Did he/she make you feel you were there? How?
- What about the setting did you like? Not like?
- What would you have done differently?
And more….

Vernon Vinge's vision of the world is mind expanding. He describes a world so like our own we can believe it, even though everything about it is unbelievable. He has given us a plausible future, maybe a plausible past. I'll have a different way of thinking for the rest of my life. That's pretty cool.

The Plot/Story:
- Did you enjoy it? Why or why not?
- Was it different or similar to other plotlines in the genre? How?
- Was it believable? Predictable?
- Were there any twists, turns or surprises?
- Would you have thought of it? How does it compare to your own plotline of your WIP?
- Did it pull you through or did you have to wade through it?
- How was this done or how do you think it should’ve been done?
- If you were buying stories for a publisher, and this manuscript hit your desk (not knowing what you do now about its sales) would you have bought it or expected it to be successful?
- Why do you think the buying public enjoyed it so much?
- What variations, if any, would you have added to the storyline/plot?
And more…

I enjoy reading a story that twists. We were given a steady course to follow and got suckered into the Great Lurk right along with everyone else. That was fun. I think he could have done a better job of leaking that a bit earlier in the story though. In a respect it was the the best turn in the story. In another, it felt like he pulled it out of thin air. I don't think it would have taken much to hint at a connection back when Trixia got involved that let us guess at it and hope it was true. If he had, I think it would have been stronger.

My own plot line doesn't have a surprise of that magnitude in it, but I like my reveal better.

The Style:
- What did you think of the author’s style of writing? Like it? Hate it?
- How much do you think this had to do with the success of the book, if any?
- What type of POV was used? How effective was it? Would the book have turned out different if the POV were done differently?
- How removed was the author from the story or how intrusive?
And more…

To be truthful, I didn't really notice his style. That's a good thing. I hate that feeling that the writer is trying to hard. I want to get lost in the story. So, from that stand point, the style was fine.

The Structure:
- How did the author unfold the story?
- Were the beginning, middle and end equally strong?
- How effective was the way the author gave you all the information?
Was it straightforward? Suspenseful? Predictable? Surprising?
- Could it have been done another way?
- Was it a linear structure or did the scenes jump around? How did this add/detract from the story or your enjoyment of it?
And more…..

I liked the story arc. Vinge built his world and started slotting parts in place at a steadily increasing rate. Just when I thought the world was big enough and I had all the pieces I cared to hold, he started putting them in order. I like that.

The Theme:
- Was there any? What was it?
- Did you think it had an impact on your enjoyment of the story?
- Was it blatant or subtle?
- Do you think the average reader registered this?
- Do you think it may have affected him/her or contributed in any way to the success of the book?
And more…

First contact is a very cool concept to me. The marvels of life in space and alien races worked for me.

Conflict:
- What was the main conflict?
- How was it handled?
- Was it a large part of the story or did the author keep it lying under the surface?
- What other conflicts did the author use in the story and when? (Internal and external.)
- What purpose did they serve?
- Would the story have been as enjoyable with less conflict? More?
- What types of conflict could’ve added to the story? Which conflicts subtracted from the story?
And more…

Now here's where I'm talking out both sides of my mouth. I have the best feeling about the Underhill story, but obviously the Pham Nuwen story was the real source of tension. Much more developed and much more immediate. It gave us someone we wanted to lose.

Dialogue:
- Was it realistic?
- Was it readable?
- How did the author handle ‘tags’?
- Was there a lot of dialogue or a little?
- Were there dialects? Slang? Profanity? Vulgarity?
And more…

Not much to say on dialogue. It worked. He created real people with real problems. There were at least a dozen different perspectives bouncing around and every one of them was handled well with dialogue. Notably, none of the tech speak became an issue. Good.

The Ending:
- Was it satisfying? Why or why not?
- Did it come as a surprise or did you see it coming from page two?
- Would you have ended it the same?
- Was everything resolved?
- Would you be able to write a sequel?
- Would you buy another book from this author?
And more….

Like I said, he kind of dumped the Great Lurk on us, which I didn't like. I thought he did the right thing with Trixia. I didn't think Vinh deserved Qiwi and truthfully, I don't think she would have still been interested in him. I hope Sherkaner and General Smith are still out there.
 

Binc

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Note: Some quick comments that won't be nearly as exhaustive of others' earlier good work.

Been awhile since I read this one, but it made quite an impression. It was initially described as "hard" SF to me , which gave me pause. "Hard" scifi can be pretty stiff and un-entertaining if done wrong and I knew nothing of Vinge's work. Suffice it to say I am now a fan of his.

I second elMonte's comments on the opening. I almost put the book down as the scene describing Sammy Park finding the long sought personage of Pham played out. It did not grab me. Too much information being put forth for which there was no foreknowledge. It was overwhelming. Not that this was a style error per se, just too much, too fast, and it left me slightly bewildered. It served to introduce the reader to the idea that there was significant depth and detail present in the world building that took place for the story. It hinted at what could be an intellectually rewarding story, provided the reader trusted the author enough to deliver. While I wasn't sure at the time, but I pushed on, and was rewarded.

No comments on characterization at this time, as I wanted to note some thoughts on the technology aspects. It seemed to me that the author had some very key tech ideas that served as principal plot points in this story arc. One of the most personally intriguing I found to be the Localizers. On the surface, this rather simple concept didn't seem to be much of an advantage to our protagonists. However, the depth and subtleties on how such a technology could be used was developed exceedingly well. It was apparent that the author had spent a significant amount of time thinking thru this tech and its potential applications, a'la the giants of the Scifi universe (Asimov, Clarke, et al). And interestingly enough, we can now begin to see this type of thinking present in our cell phones services! (Want to know where your friends are? Check your gps enabled iphone to see the physical mappings of your friends (or at least their cell phones) current location on google maps!!).

More comments to come, but I best get back to work for the moment.
 

Fenika

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Just bumping this back up.

It took me a long time to get through this book (she said nearly 2 months in) - the details, the hard science were almost too much for me - but the ending totally made everything worth it.

Vinge pulled it all together in the end and when I have time I'll be reading all the comments and hoping to find some insight.

Cheers
 

ELMontague

Thanks for bringing it back up. I enjoyed the thoughts of Binc and Espiru. I am anxious to read more.
 

Fenika

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Reading through EL's earlier post, I realize one really strong point of this book- Though the backstory could have been trimmed, and/or written in a more engaging way, the characters really wove together and built off each other. When Vihn started to give Pham 'the speech' I rolled my eyes thinking he would be an inept whiner and Pham would raise some stakes. Instead he hit Pham where it hurt and the whole plot tumbled forward from that point on. In fact, the pacing was much improved once the backstory came together and the final struggle could (finally) begin.

But Pham, Vihn, Anne, and even Qiwi were all part of tight web. I really love it when details weave together like that. If I ever have the urge to reread this book, I'm sure I will notice so much more.

Furthermore-
When I read the 'monsters' convo between Pham and Trixia near the end, I knew something significant was going on, but it was late so I made note of it and moved on. A few pages later, Vinge was kind enough to make it clear. I reread that passage and loved how he crafted it.

I might find more to add later, but for now I'll leave it at that...
 

Fenika

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I also wasn't such a big fan of the 'everything wrapped up nicely at the end' epilogue. Oh look, Ezr and Qiwi have babies (we know this thanks to a little 'as you know' infodump), Trixia is happy as a beaver in a rainforest, Nuwen and Reynolt are about to run away and destory the one-dimensional tyranny that is the Emergency (help, help, there's an Emergency going on) and everybody is sitting around toasting each other's success and grinning like idiot clowns.

Hehe, this is interesting. There were parts of the epilogue that did bother me, but somehow they all slid by.

First, I think it's because of the way the last few chapters went. The negotiations were a bit rough around the edges, but the rest of the end plot was well done. It (the end and the epilogue) were so refreshing compared to the rest of the book. The plot moved along well, the story held me, and all my invested reading time paid off. There were some possible tragedies (Shrek and the General) and a lot to look to in the future by Spiders and Humans.

I didn't mind Nuwen's change. It was a bit convenient, but it felt justified to me. When one dream snaps, another takes shape. Humans need to cling to something.

So yes, a bit waff-ly, but certainly earned. The interesting thing is the Spiders we were close to faced far more losses in the novel then the Humans we were close to (since most the human loss happens early before we are invested, or to side characters who we aren't too taken with).

I'm interested to see if anyone else has something to add and if anyone is reading Fire in the Deep. I picked up a copy just to see--the world is quite different but it didn't grab me enough to justify another long, hard SF read. (Not this year at least).

Cheers
 

ELMontague

I was warned off of Fire in the Deep. I'll take a shot at it sometime, just not now.

The epilogue was convenient and therefore kind of a let down, but I liked the fact that he left the door open for Sherk to be in a deepness out in the waste.
 

Smiling Ted

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I was warned off of Fire in the Deep. I'll take a shot at it sometime, just not now.

The epilogue was convenient and therefore kind of a let down, but I liked the fact that he left the door open for Sherk to be in a deepness out in the waste.

I read A Fire on the Deep first, and liked it so much that I then read A Deepness in the Sky.

If you accept the basic "gimme" - that constants like c aren't actually that constant - then it's a pretty wild ride, with lots of well-considered, very unanthropomorphic alien species. The Tines and the Skroderiders were both intriguing.
 
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