The 'Novel Series' Thread

[E.G. Gammon]

I thought it would be a good idea to start a topic on writing a novel series since I am writing one and a couple other writers here are, too. Use this topic to discuss the "rules," post any tips you can give (as a writer, reader or both), or talk about your own novel series (or others already published - granted you post in a way that provides some insight on the writing of a novel series).

I'll jump into the discussion after others start posting because let's face it - my novel series is probably the only thing I EVER talk about on these boards. You're probably sick to death of hearing about it...

[RosettaStone]

The best advice (if you’re willing to take it from a complete newbie) I can give right now is to know your world and characters inside and out. At the moment, I’m plotting out two different (historical time travel with magical characters and the lives of various characters who all have one thing in common…I’m working on the former more than the latter).



The characters split up and go on different adventures in different books. I thought I’d just have to work with the characters who’d be playing a big role in book one…that’s not the case. Even though the characters have split up into different groups, they’re still entwined in a way (especially if they're involved romantically and are debating remaing faithful)...

[James D. Macdonald]

Make sure the first book is a stand-alone.

[zizban]

Just out of curiosity, what happens if your WIP is intended to be one book but it comes out huge, like 180,000 words?

[dragonjax]

I think 180,000 words is a lot to ask of a reader (let alone a publisher). If you can't get it down to something under 120,000 words, you may have to pitch the story as a two-volume book.

What genre is your WIP?

[dragonjax]

The best advice (if you’re willing to take it from a complete newbie) I can give right now is to know your world and characters inside and out.
Absolutely! While writing a series allows room for growth as the author writes more books for the same story arc or characters or world, the first book still has to "ring true" and be a complete world, including socio-political structures, religion, and magic (if appropriate).

[zizban]

I'm currently plotting out a series of what will probably end up being novellas. They would be published as chap books, which will fir the fact they are pulpish fantasies.

[E.G. Gammon]

I'm currently plotting out a series of what will probably end up being novellas. They would be published as chap books, which will fir the fact they are pulpish fantasies.

That's the route I'm taking my series, well NOW anyway... I change my mind so much it's pathetic. First it was 9 long novels, then 7, then 6, then 7 again, and now a whole series of chapbooks - 42 of them to be exact (I split up each of the seven books into 6 parts). Sounds insane, I know.

The Green Mile was released in 6 separate chapbooks, each around 20,000 words (about 75-100 printed pages). That's where I got the inspiration to release my series in chapbooks.

[zizban]

Are you going with a trad publisher or self publish?

[E.G. Gammon]

Are you going with a trad publisher or self publish?

Hopefully a traditional. It won't be easy and it certainly won't be published if it's my first proposal. I'm working on a novel now to be published first (while I work on the big series) and then if I get that published, I can try and propose my big series.

[oneidii]

Hi ECGammon, for myself (and perhaps others) can you please explain to me the concept of a Chapbook? This is very interesting to me for a couple reasons...and so I have a couple particular questions for you. 1) are they done often? Do you have any titles of these type of books I could look up? 2) are they (I know your story from other threads but I do YA) done ever for YA?

Please excuse the ignorance, folks, but inquiring minds....

[E.G. Gammon]

Hi EGGammon, for myself (and perhaps others) can you please explain to me the concept of a Chapbook? This is very interesting to me for a couple reasons...and so I have a couple particular questions for you. 1) are they done often? Do you have any titles of these type of books I could look up? 2) are they (I know your story from other threads but I do YA) done ever for YA?

Please excuse the ignorance, folks, but inquiring minds....

Well, I'm certainly no expert on this. I'm not a published writer. But a "chapbook," a term I've recently heard of, is "a smaller-than-average book" -Stephen King in his Forward of The Green Mile series.

Yes, they are done often. The Green Mile was made up of 6 chapbooks, one being released a MONTH after the previous until they were all released. I don't know if there have been any YA books done this way, or many regular books other than The Green Mile. I wouldn't be the person to ask. But, that doesn't mean there can't be a YA series done this way...

http://www.cramerlife.com/downloads/books/fiction/web%20books/Green%20Mile,%20The.htm - Read Stephen King's Forward about chapbook, serial novels. He mentions one by Charles Dickens...

[zizban]

Here is a brief overview of chapbooks, from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapbook

I intend to try to get mine trad published as well, and if worse comes to worse, there are actually self publishing chap book places out there.

[azbikergirl]

Just out of curiosity, what happens if your WIP is intended to be one book but it comes out huge, like 180,000 words?
That was me a few months ago! When I finished the first revision of the third draft, it came to 181,000 words (by MS Word's count).

I took two passes through, cutting everything that wasn't crucial. I ended up removing two characters and their associated subplots, and an additional subplot. Then I tried to get characters from point A to point B by following a figurative straight line. After that, I cut words, sentences and condensed paragraphs and scenes that weren't pulling their weight. You'd be surprised at how much a word here and two words there will add up over the entire novel.

It's down to 120,300 by MS Word's count.

This is me now: :banana:

[E.G. Gammon]

I intend to try to get mine trad published as well, and if worse comes to worse, there are actually self publishing chap book places out there.

Yeah, try and get it published by a traditional publisher. Self-publishing should be the last resort. I don't intend on self-publishing at all. God, can you imagine me trying to self-publish 42 books? Now that's scary...

[James D. Macdonald]

Some chapbooks. (http://www.korval.com/srmcat2.htm) Steve and Sharon used chapbooks to keep their series alive and a fan base going between major publishing contracts.

Chapbooks are often self-published. Poets use 'em a lot. They're also used as gifts, or as adverising (given away).

[Maryn]

Make sure the first book is a stand-alone.I feel uppity, semi-contradicting Jim, but I'd say to make every book in the series stand alone.

I doubt anybody'd be reading Sue Grafton or Robert Parker if readers had to locate and read these large series in order.

Say, this uppity stuff is fun!

Maryn

[James D. Macdonald]

Maryn has a very good point.

What you do with second-and-subsequent books in your series is between you and your editor.

If your first book isn't a stand-alone, there won't be a second book.

[sunandshadow]

Don't put all the exposition in the first book and all the action in the last book. Give the reader something new to think about and a climax in every book. Especially in science fiction and fantasy, it is essential to have some new worldbuilding in every book. Also, don't let the tone of the series change from book to book - you can't have one be happy and one be tragic, or one be romantic and one be gritty and bleak, one be violent and one be placid, etc.

[Nateskate]

Depending on Genre:

1) Keep a notebook with names/places/timeframes. Next to the name, put a brief definition-(Elvis-brother of Pelvis. Murdered so and so in the first age) If you are writing fantasy, and world building, it will help:

a) because you will refer back to events and places and names. You might think you'll "just remember". Well, it might stay fresh for the next twenty pages, but five chapters later you'll be ticked trying to remember whether he was the brother of Pelvis or Belvis.

b) it will reduce the number of characters you'll have to introduce. Let's say you need a foil simply to push dialogue in book two. It's often better to use a recurrent character than be forced to make up a new one.

2) Make a map, and write in towns. Fans will remember if Oakwood is south of Doomsville. Now if you make Plainsville south of Oakwood, but north of Doomsville, you have a problem.

[Maryn]

Nate, keeping track of your facts as stated is good advice for any piece of fiction. When I'm still in the planning stage, I start a fresh file--a portion of a notebook for the hand-writers among us--for characters, one for places, one for facts and chronologies. Never again will I have a character's eyes change color or let him give somebody's ponytail a playful yank when my most recent juggling of events made the haircut come first.

(And I just love catching it when errors like that make it to print.)

Maryn

[zizban]

I am part computer geek so I keep all my notes in a custom MySQL database. Still, sometimes when I'm on a roll I wont refer to it and a place name will slightly change in spelling.

[soloset]

The Green Mile was released in 6 separate chapbooks, each around 20,000 words (about 75-100 printed pages).

As a reader, I can tell you my first reaction to this. I remember going into the bookstore and seeing this dinky little *chapter*, and thinking, hmm, must be a free promo thing -- what? He wants 3.99 each? What a rip-off!

I realize they're multiple chapters, complete little stories, etc., but, still, my first reaction as a reader was, "Yeah, right. I'll wait 'til it's put out as one book, and I won't be holding my breath." That and, "Mr. King's ego has eaten his brain."

Now, my step-father was a die hard King fan, and bought each of them in order with the crazed, glazed look of an addict. So, apparently my feeling of outrage was not universal -- and I suspect that if an author I really loved used this tactic, I'd lemming along after each title. But I'd still feel vaguely cheated anyway.

[PattiTheWicked]

I feel uppity, semi-contradicting Jim, but I'd say to make every book in the series stand alone.



Indeed. I'm working on Book 2 of a trilogy right now, and I'm mapping out plot arcs that connect it back to the first book, but that don't *depend* on the reader having gone through book 1, if that makes any sense. If someone sees Book 2 on a shelf and is willing to read it, the last thing I want is for them to sit there and say, "Hey, I don't know what these people are talking about... oh! It all happened in another book that I've never read! This sucks!"

[katdad]

I'm writing a series of hardboiled private detective novels, the "Mitch King" mysteries. They are modern American books based in Houston and the surrounding area.

The first 2 novels are complete, and are now being shopped by my agent. I'm at work on the 3rd in the series, with a hopefully long string of novels to come.

You may read about my books on my website:

http://www.waas.us/mysteries.html

What I've done is to write stand-alone books, which they must be in order to sell, and also create a thread of common characters and events that link the books. This is traditional for PI series (Spenser, Pronzini's Nameless, etc.)

I haven't written a 345 million word novel and pretended that it will be bought or printed. I haven't written a trilogy and I don't tell stories that nobody can understand. I just try to tell an interesting mystery plot and make it succinct. Anything more than 80k should make you go "whoa", especially if you're a new writer without a solid publishing history, because if you go beyond 80k, you'll have serious problems placing the novel, believe me.

My novels are about typical for PI books, which is in the 68k word range. PI books tend to be a bit shorter than many novels, because they are a singular event (a murder or a robbery or kidnapping) that the PI then tries to solve.

I have several constant characters who will exist thru the books: my PI Mitch King, his best pal Homicide Det. David Meierhoff, and Mitch's mentor, Homicide Lt. Joe Duggan.

Aside from these 3, the other characters are pretty much expendable, but not for good reason for the semi-major characters.

I try to tell a crisp, interesting story, and make the novel stand alone, but at the same time place hooks in the story that lead back to previous novels, or foreshadow future books.

Thus far the books haven't been sold, but my agent is pretty enthusiastic (he has to be -- he won't make a red cent until he sells the books -- ha ha).

Any questions? I'll be glad to feed back.

[Christine N.]

I'm learning something about series writing, since I'm on book two. Book one is sitting around, aging a bit before final revision (final until the editor gets a hold of it).

I started book two after taking a day off between. What I've learned is that it's good to write two books in a row. There's little details that came up in book Two that I need to go put in Book One. Does that make sense? It's not that I'm drastically changing book one, but there's things that should have been there in the first place that are now coming up.

Moral of the story - don't wait to publish book one before you write book two.

[E.G. Gammon]

I'm learning something about series writing, since I'm on book two. Book one is sitting around, aging a bit before final revision (final until the editor gets a hold of it).

I started book two after taking a day off between. What I've learned is that it's good to write two books in a row. There's little details that came up in book Two that I need to go put in Book One. Does that make sense? It's not that I'm drastically changing book one, but there's things that should have been there in the first place that are now coming up.

Moral of the story - don't wait to publish book one before you write book two.

Or create an outline of the entire series BEFORE you write the first book. My novel series - back at seven novels - is so complex, I'd be lost without a detailed outline of the ENTIRE SERIES.

[NeuroFizz]

I'm going to re-post a part of a response to another thread since this topic has come up before, but in a slightly different context.

The only way to break a series into books that do not cheat the reader (book buyer) is to make darn sure that every individual book has a very different source of tension and resolution. There can be an overarching plotline for the series, but it can't be thrown out as the primary plot at the beginning without resolution--you know, the describe-a-gun, you-have-to-shoot-it thing. A book series is just that--a series of books. It's not a series of book-length chapters. And dramatic moments don't constitute reasonable break points for a book.

As authors, we shouldn't be looking for the "minimal publishable unit" as a way to construct a topic series. We should be looking for the best complete story to entertain the reader. There's nothing wrong with keeping the reader guessing in a story, but guessing in a straight-ahead plotline shouldn't span from book to book unless you are darn sure that each book stands on its own and provides maximal satisfaction to the reader. If the reader feels like he/she bought the first book just to set up the second, I bet he/she won't be very happy, or very willing to get out the pocketbook again.

Stephen King can get away with chapbooks. Do you think Richard Bachman could?

EG - it sounds like you have plenty of good material. Make sure it comes out in stand-alones. Also, to add to Uncle Jim's statements. All of your energy at this point should be on the first story. Once someone (agent or editor) has shown interest in that one, then you can agonize about the series. That doesn't mean you can't plan, and you should be writing instead of waiting once number one is done. As for the chapbook thing, run it by the "Ask the Agent" thread and get back to us all here.

[stranger]

I feel uppity, semi-contradicting Jim, but I'd say to make every book in the series stand alone.

I doubt anybody'd be reading Sue Grafton or Robert Parker if readers had to locate and read these large series in order.

Say, this uppity stuff is fun!

Maryn

I disagree with making every book stand alone in a series. But maybe we are talking about different types of books here (I've never read Sue Grafton or Robert Parker.)

I know that there are books with the same characters, and the characters may grow or change between books (but often don't), but the story basically stands alone -- and I'm not talking about those books.

I mean your classic fantasy series-- George RR Martin, Robert Jordan come to mind. I rarely (never) read a book that says 'Book 2 of The Test of the Dancing Swords' or whatever unless I have read book 1. And I hate when book 2 starts explaining loads of stuff that you'd already knew if you'd just read book 1. And it's good for the book to have an exciting climax but perhaps it can be the culmination of a subplot rather that the main plot, making you want to buy the next book to find out everything else.

I've seen another discussion about this, about each book having a smaller arc as a central plot for a book while being combined with a larger arc for the whole series. Harry Potter books were used as an example. But some books, lets say George RR Martin's, don't work that way and the main plot introduced in the prologue is only barely developed 3 books in, while subplots twist and writhe throughout. The end of each book could easily be moved around a bit without detracting much from the individual books. The series itself must have a proper ending however.

On the other hand I do see the wisdom of Uncle Jim's comments that for an unpublished author to write a book that isn't standalone may not be such a good idea.

This is the main problem with the book I'm writing at the moment. I see it as a trilogy: the characters age, an empire is overthrown, I certainly think there is too much to fit into one book. However it doesn't break into 3 parts as in find the philosopers stone, then find the chamber of secrets, then defeat Voldemort.

The only climatic event that I can come up with that will be a structurally satisfying ending is the death of one of the main characters. The other main characters are in captivity at the end. Hardly a good ending for a standalone book!

[E.G. Gammon]

EG - it sounds like you have plenty of good material. Make sure it comes out in stand-alones. Also, to add to Uncle Jim's statements. All of your energy at this point should be on the first story. Once someone (agent or editor) has shown interest in that one, then you can agonize about the series. That doesn't mean you can't plan, and you should be writing instead of waiting once number one is done. As for the chapbook thing, run it by the "Ask the Agent" thread and get back to us all here.

I wish I COULD reconstruct the story as stand-alones, but there's just no way. When I started developing the story January 1998 (over seven years ago), I intended for it to be a limited-run network soap opera. Now, as I'm converting the story to novels, I have found no way around the huge endings. The series has 80 characters, not all of them introduced at the same time. Book One ends with almost 10 main character deaths (are deaths really cliffhangers?). Book Two ends with some cliffhangers. Book Three is one of two of the seven novels that seems to end without cliffhangers (Book Six being the other). The rest end on cliffhangers, well except for the last one. This is all because of how the story was originally constructed. It's constructed so well that it can't be presented without the cliffhangers where they are. This is ONE of the reasons why I'm always stressing about the series. I know it will be hard to sell (because of the cliffhangers) but I believe the story told in the series - and how well it's constructed - will convince an agent and a publisher to give it a shot.

[stranger]

I posted before I saw your post, NeuroFizz, we seem to have said the exact opposite. Though I don't think chap books are a good idea either.

I see a fantasy series as one large story that has been broken down into books (volumes) so they can be sold. A book is the maximum publishable unit. Some series's have books that can standalone but others don't.

[kmm8n]

Thanks for starting this thread...very interesting advice!! When I started writing my first novel, I decided I wanted to create the possibility of a series. So, while the ms (a romantic suspense) is stand alone (the H/h meet, fall in love, etc. all while solving a murder mystery), I have plans for two more novels that are similar. The main characters in the first novel will be minor characters in the second and one of the minor characters will become the main character. Also, there are several characters who will remain minor throughout the whole series. The setting stays the same...all the main characters live in the same apartment coop in NYC, and they will all be romantic suspense.

[E.G. Gammon]

I see a fantasy series as one large story that has been broken down into books (volumes) so they can be sold.

I totally agree with you on that. I think that my series has a fantasy feel to it. All seven books are just volumes in the huge story. I certainly don't expect my series to be as big as Harry Potter or Dark Tower or anything, but I know that it will have a cult following - and those who buy Book One, WILL continue throughout the rest of the series. I am confident enough to say that.

I also agree about the chapbooks comment. That's why I changed my story back to seven regular novels. But, the experience of considering splitting each novel into six parts, and the process I went through constructing the story that way, made an interesting "division" for the seven novels. Now they all have 6 "parts."

[Christine N.]

Each of my books in the series is planned to be a stand alone. The books all have the same characters, but if you come into the series at book three, you won't be lost.

But my series is geared toward 9-12 year olds, who seem to love series, but also love to have a satisfying ending to each book.

[zizban]

I figured out the other night how to make my fantasy a standalone. It means I'll write two endings; one that closes the story and one that allows for a sequel, if a publisher accepts my book I'll pitch the idea.

[alaskamatt17]

My trilogy probably stands no chance of being published any time soon. None of the books are standalone, and the first one is a bit longer than the optimal range for first-time authors, even after trimming out more than 11,000 words. That, and it's about sentient dinosaurs.

[LightShadow]

Don't try to sell it as a series if you're a new writer. Let the publisher make that determination. Make sure the book can stand alone, but if the publisher wants you to write more books using the same character, they'll let you know, and if you've already prepared for it to be a series, then it'll be that much easier. About the comment regarding 180,000 words, maybe if you're established, you can pull it off. Ideal length for a new writer trying to get published for the first time is about 80,000 words (that's about 250 words per page, 12 pt, times new roman, double spaced).

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

[zizban]

Don't try to sell it as a series if you're a new writer. Let the publisher make that determination. Make sure the book can stand alone, but if the publisher wants you to write more books using the same character, they'll let you know, and if you've already prepared for it to be a series, then it'll be that much easier. About the comment regarding 180,000 words, maybe if you're established, you can pull it off. Ideal length for a new writer trying to get published for the first time is about 80,000 words (that's about 250 words per page, 12 pt, times new roman, double spaced).

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

That was me when I was fearing that I had this massive tale that had to be crammed into one volume but now that I figured out how to end it in one volume, that is no longer a problem. I still have no idea how many words it'll be, but it wont be anythwre near 180,000. Probably 90,000.

[LightShadow]

90,000 is good. Rule of thumb is 70,000 to 90,000 for newbies, but the closer to 80,000 the better. My agent told me it's also best to keep the chapters between 10 to 20 pages, but that's not in stone. What mostly matters is the artistic merit.

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

[Lenora Rose]

Maybe we should define "series" more explicitly. Here are some mroe precise terms:

Ongoing Series' featuring the same main character but involving an indefinite number of standalone stories. These are popular in Mysteries (Which is why many books in that genre have a subtitle like "A Joanne Kilbourn Mystery" somewhere on the cover - but don't say "Book One of..." because they can almost always be read out of order.) OTOH, Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos Series is a fantasy like this (It's heading towards have-to-read-in-order territory), and Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan books are an SF series in this form. Sometimes these series' develop an ending as the character changes and/or gets stale. (Sometimes the author had an ending planned all along, but has taken pains that we don't know that.) AKA the "Comic BooK" style.

Indefinite Series' featuring the same setting but different main characters. Discworld jumps to mind, although it's also been done in suspense novels, SF, and fantasy. This allows for fresh starts throughout. It also gives some leeway for a shift in moods (I doubt PTerry will write a totally serious Discworld Book, but the humour has ranged from Parody to Pun to Dark.)

Limited Series' (Non-Standalone) are complete stories split into Books a la Tolkien and Jordan (Or, it looks like, EG Gammon.) The end is in sight, but it's more than a book away. (Sometimes, though not in the current North American Publishing industry we're concerned with, it's twenty or more books away) Of all the kinds here, the one I'd advise new writers NOT to try. Even Tolkien had an obvious standalone book first, and Jordan did have a pre-Wheel career.

Limited Series' (Standalone): complete stories with another greater arc, as per a certain Doyle/McDonald's Mageworlds. An End is in sight, but there are breathers at the end of each book along the way, and the opening to the next book does not confuse the living hell out of someone who starts a bit late. Of course, if the books are explicitly labelled Book One, Book Two, etc., the browser might well assume this is a non-standalone series and put it back. if they aren't, someone trying to follow the proper order gets frustrated. I've also received contradictory advice about whether a newbie should do even this kind of Limited Series.

[Lenora Rose]

90,000 is good. Rule of thumb is 70,000 to 90,000 for newbies, but the closer to 80,000 the better. My agent told me it's also best to keep the chapters between 10 to 20 pages, but that's not in stone. What mostly matters is the artistic merit.

In part this depends on Genre. That sounds like the range for Mysteries IIRC. It's shorter for Children's and YA, and SF and F can get away with 80k to 120K for newbies (Until the last year or two, this cap had risen even higher; they're pulling it down now). Some romance novel publishers (Not just Harlequin) have explicit length limitations that are even stricter (and the Harlequin ones vary depending on the exact line -- some lines are designed for 100k or longer, some for as precisely 70k or 80K as you can hit)

Does anybody know what they say for "Literary"?

[E.G. Gammon]

Maybe we should define "series" more explicitly. Here are some mroe precise terms:

Ongoing Series' featuring the same main character but involving an indefinite number of standalone stories. These are popular in Mysteries (Which is why many books in that genre have a subtitle like "A Joanne Kilbourn Mystery" somewhere on the cover - but don't say "Book One of..." because they can almost always be read out of order.) OTOH, Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos Series is a fantasy like this (It's heading towards have-to-read-in-order territory), and Lois McMaster Bujold's Miles Vorkosigan books are an SF series in this form. Sometimes these series' develop an ending as the character changes and/or gets stale. (Sometimes the author had an ending planned all along, but has taken pains that we don't know that.) AKA the "Comic BooK" style.

Indefinite Series' featuring the same setting but different main characters. Discworld jumps to mind, although it's also been done in suspense novels, SF, and fantasy. This allows for fresh starts throughout. It also gives some leeway for a shift in moods (I doubt PTerry will write a totally serious Discworld Book, but the humour has ranged from Parody to Pun to Dark.)

Limited Series' (Non-Standalone) are complete stories split into Books a la Tolkien and Jordan (Or, it looks like, EG Gammon.) The end is in sight, but it's more than a book away. (Sometimes, though not in the current North American Publishing industry we're concerned with, it's twenty or more books away) Of all the kinds here, the one I'd advise new writers NOT to try. Even Tolkien had an obvious standalone book first, and Jordan did have a pre-Wheel career.

Limited Series' (Standalone): complete stories with another greater arc, as per a certain Doyle/McDonald's Mageworlds. An End is in sight, but there are breathers at the end of each book along the way, and the opening to the next book does not confuse the living hell out of someone who starts a bit late. Of course, if the books are explicitly labelled Book One, Book Two, etc., the browser might well assume this is a non-standalone series and put it back. if they aren't, someone trying to follow the proper order gets frustrated. I've also received contradictory advice about whether a newbie should do even this kind of Limited Series.

Thanks for that contribution to the thread! And yes, my series does fall into that category..."Limited Series' (Non-Standalone)"

[katdad]

Book one is sitting around, aging a bit before final revision (final until the editor gets a hold of it).

When you say 'editor' do you mean that you've sold your 1st book and the publisher's editor is now engaged in the revision process?

If not, who's the editor?

Thanks

And yes it helps to start the 2nd book right away -- I was able to provide some links to the 2 books since I totally rewrote both of them before they went to an agent.

Therefore the agent has seen 2 rewritten books that are linked.

[zizban]

My WIP is a fantasy about a mercenary company and I have decided to center on two or three of its members so if I wanted to continue, I could pick a single character to focus on. I've made sure each has an indepth background so I can pick up a hook from that and run with it.

[katdad]

Thanks for that contribution to the thread! And yes, my series does fall into that category..."Limited Series' (Non-Standalone)"

I'm curious -- what luck have you had with "selling" your multiple and non-standalone books?

Do you have an agent? Have you had publishers or agents or whomever read your multiple books?

Reason I ask is that I had lots of difficulty getting my standalone mystery novels read and finally signed on with an agency, but with non-standalone? I cannot imagine the difficulity for a new writer (and by 'new' I mean not ever published, but not having novels published -- there's a difference)

Thanks

[E.G. Gammon]

I'm curious -- what luck have you had with "selling" your multiple and non-standalone books?

Do you have an agent? Have you had publishers or agents or whomever read your multiple books?

Reason I ask is that I had lots of difficulty getting my standalone mystery novels read and finally signed on with an agency, but with non-standalone? I cannot imagine the difficulity for a new writer (and by 'new' I mean not ever published, but not having novels published -- there's a difference)

Thanks

I am still in the development stages. I have passages written, but no "one" book is complete. The story is very complex and I've come to the point where I need to write out a detailed outline of the story and make sure everything fits and nothing contradicts something else. My series has 80+ characters and a plan of seven huge novels. I need a detailed outline before going any further. I'm still deciding if I should write all seven novels BEFORE I submit to an agent. Since the books aren't standalone, a publisher may want to release each book in the series close to each other.

I plan to write another book and try to get THAT published before I propose my huge series. I have better chances that way.

[zornhau]

7 novels! How long's that going to take?

By the time you're 2 books in, won't you have moved on as a person?

Also, make a sentence out of these words: eggs basket in your all one.

[E.G. Gammon]

7 novels! How long's that going to take?

By the time you're 2 books in, won't you have moved on as a person?

Also, make a sentence out of these words: eggs basket in your all one.

Writing all seven novels before proposing the series is not the route I WANT to go. But, I'm just being realistic. A series where each novel ends on a cliffhanger is harder to sell than one with standalone novels. Publishers MAY want to release each novel of the series closer together than a regular novel series. So, I would need to be far into the series (if not finished) before I proposed Book One. Can you imagine Book One of Harry Potter ending just as Quirrell/Voldemort gets away and we don't know if Harry Potter is ok or not "[he] knew all was lost, and fell into blackness, down... down ...down ..."? The publisher would have been begging and pressuring J.K. Rowling to write Book Two even faster than she did, because readers would be anxious for the next book. I hope I don't have to write all of the books before proposing my series, but it may be something I have to do.

[zornhau]

Can you imagine Book One of Harry Potter ending just as Quirrell/Voldemort gets away and we don't know if Harry Potter is ok or not "[he] knew all was lost, and fell into blackness, down... down ...down ..."? The publisher would have been begging and pressuring J.K. Rowling to write Book Two even faster than she did, because readers would be anxious for the next book.

Yes, I can imagine it. A lot of people would have been too annoyed to buy the next book if the publishers had been foolish enough to publish it that form.

Forward momentum in series comes from the bigger arks, from knowing what the next challenge is, from caring about the characters, and from trusting the author to entertain and thrill.

Seriously, how many modern series in your chosen genre end on cliffhangers without resolving the story?

[zizban]

When you write a series, or in my case, a big old fantasy, you tend to live with the characters you create for a long time. I'm not worried about moving on or such in life because these characters are there and deserve to have thier stories told before I go.

[E.G. Gammon]

Seriously, how many modern series in your chosen genre end on cliffhangers without resolving the story?

There's nothing wrong with proposing something unique. I'd rather it take a couple years to find a publisher the way the story is, than give in to "the rules" and write a story that's a format "just like everyone else's." I believe in the story and its sell-a-bility. If I wasn't confident it would sell, I wouldn't have devoted more than seven years to it...

[Christine N.]

When you say 'editor' do you mean that you've sold your 1st book and the publisher's editor is now engaged in the revision process?

If not, who's the editor?

Thanks

.

Nah, this one hasn't been sold yet, but my publisher (see signature) has right of first refusal for my next two books. Assuming that they want it (which, if I may say, it's pretty damn good)I'm talking about their editor.

If, for some reason they don't want it, then whomever I do sell it to.

[E.G. Gammon]

When you write a series, or in my case, a big old fantasy, you tend to live with the characters you create for a long time. I'm not worried about moving on or such in life because these characters are there and deserve to have thier stories told before I go.

I agree. If a writer gets tired of an idea, it shouldn't be finished in the first place. No one wants to read a story a writer finished because they got sick of writing it. The best ideas writers have are the ones they could spend the rest of their lives writing - the stories that are as exciting to write years into them as they were when the stories began.

[E.G. Gammon]

A GREAT quote from a review by Amazon.com about an epic fantasy novel series:

"Readers of epic fantasy series are: (1) patient--they are left in suspense between each volume, (2) persistent--they reread or at least review the previous book(s) when a new installment comes out, (3) strong--these 700-page doorstoppers are heavy, and (4) mentally agile--they follow a host of characters through a myriad of subplots."


Also if you are worried about killing off many main characters, another reviewer (not an official review from Amazon.com, but a pretty good one) posted this:

"One of the things that I haven't liked about fantasy as a genre is its near [adulteration] of the taboo on killing off main characters. Seeing one of my favorites bite the dust was interesting, because it was then that I found out that I was rooting for him and that I cared. Not having the power over life and death (other than with side characters) [usually makes] for wooden settings and scenarios. And while that in and of itself is the genre, and some writers have written great pieces within its constraints, for the better part, it is what has cheapened the genre and made it on par with romance and cheeseball sci-fi." (I agree)

E.G.

[zornhau]

There's nothing wrong with proposing something unique. I'd rather it take a couple years to find a publisher the way the story is, than give in to "the rules" and write a story that's a format "just like everyone else's." I believe in the story and its sell-a-bility. If I wasn't confident it would sell, I wouldn't have devoted more than seven years to it...

There are rules and there are rules.

I would avoid breaking the ones relating to the implicit contract with the reader.

It's like Rock and Roll. If you use 5 minor chords, and play in 15/6 time, it's still music, but it ain't Rock and Roll, so don't expect people to boogie or jive.

If you throw off the rules which define a traditional novel (e.g. beginning, middle, end, coherant story, conflict, main story question set and resolved), then - yes, you are being clever, but you're messing with the things which motivate the reader to read the book in the first place.

A reader wants to be surprised, teased even. However, I suspect that artificial ploys to keep them reading, such as ending early so as to defer the resolution to the next volume, will just be seen at best as smart-*** tricks, and, at worst, lazy and cynical devices.

However, for all I know, you may well be onto a literary masterpiece, so I will trouble you no more on this.
:flag:

[E.G. Gammon]

There are rules and there are rules.

I would avoid breaking the ones relating to the implicit contract with the reader.

It's like Rock and Roll. If you use 5 minor chords, and play in 15/6 time, it's still music, but it ain't Rock and Roll, so don't expect people to boogie or jive.

If you throw off the rules which define a traditional novel (e.g. beginning, middle, end, coherant story, conflict, main story question set and resolved), then - yes, you are being clever, but you're messing with the things which motivate the reader to read the book in the first place.

A reader wants to be surprised, teased even. However, I suspect that artificial ploys to keep them reading, such as ending early so as to defer the resolution to the next volume, will just be seen at best as smart-*** tricks, and, at worst, lazy and cynical devices.

However, for all I know, you may well be onto a literary masterpiece, so I will trouble you no more on this.
:flag:

We'll just agree to disagree then... :)

[maestrowork]

Just write it.

Then you can decide if it's a genius piece of work, or just literary drivel. But only AFTER you're done with it.

And if you don't care about what the readers think, you can't blame them for not buying... ;)

[Lenora Rose]

First, In the far far middle of the night, I finally recalled the term I was groping for for a Non-standalone Limited Series, which is Serial Novel.

EGGammon, it seems to me that you're thinking too much about the exceptions in publishing, and not enough about the standard.

Yes, Susanna Clarke published a first novel over 800 pages where one of the title characters doesn't really get involved until after page 200. That doesn't mean one shouldn't shoot for the range that's currently selling best in your chosen genre.

Yes, Stephen King (And someone else in the same genre did the same very shortly thereafter), released serial chapbooks instead of a single solid novel. And others have first sold novels as serials in Asimov's magazine and the like (as recently as last year). That doesn't mean an unknown will have enough draw to warrant a risky move like that.

Yes, people have published all kinds of Serial novels, and I'm sure you could find one in the last 5 years that was released by a new author if you tried. Again, that doesn't make it any more advisable.

Uncle Jim made a remark once to the effect that, while most of us are sturggling to get downhill on our skis without falling into a snowbank, once in a while someone is spotted heading uphill on an ironing board and making it look easy.

Doesn't mean you're the one. (Doesn't mean you aren't, either. But that's not the way I'd bet - not just on you, but on anyone. Even Stephen King falls on his face when he tries marketing styles the market won't bear. Remember his e-book effort?)


We keep suggesting that you just go ahead and write and finish the book, and worry about the sales afterward. And you keep agreeing - then asking about whether format X would fit better, in ways which imply that you're more concerned with fiddling with the format now, than BIC and writing another word. Too many of these questions sound more and more like stalling on just finishing the project.

Go with your first instinct. Stop overanalyzing what isn't written. Except in one way - look for a way to make book one feel complete on its own, even if the rest never can.

Maybe read the books of a Limited Series (Standalone) out of order, to see how or why they bear up even with a linked story arc.

[DaveKuzminski]

Well, I can certainly understand where both sides are coming from as I've been in both positions. Presently, I'm working on a series that has expanded well beyond the single short story I first wrote which then became a novel.

I've gone for having the first book work as a standalone. I've not enforced that fully within the series. A number of the books can stand on their own, but well over half are into indefinite territory since there are different main characters in different parts of the world. There are plot resolutions, but enough things come into play that are not that those form the basis for a later book. In fact, trying to tie down those sub-elements is what caused the proliferation in the first place. When I mentioned the threat of black blades in the first book, I had to write a book dealing with those just to satisfy myself but didn't reach that until about the fifth book.

Anyway, if you get the first book accepted by a publisher, your odds do go up considerably for getting the series accepted. Currently, I'm working with an editor on the first book that a publisher accepted and looking forward to when we go over the other sixteen so I can get this out there. As well, I'm halfway through writing the eighteenth of the series and it appears that there might be one or two more remaining even though I'm eager to shut it down so I can work on some other unrelated ideas.

[E.G. Gammon]

Ok, I'll throw THIS out for discussion:

What if a novel series begins with a stand-alone novel (average "first novel" length - around 80,000 words) and then after that, the rest of the books are longer (over 100,000) and end with cliffhangers?

[maestrowork]

It's up to your publisher, but yeah, why not? Especially if your book sells millions and you have a huge fan base.

[LightShadow]

Ok, I'll throw THIS out for discussion:

What if a novel series begins with a stand-alone novel (average "first novel" length - around 80,000 words) and then after that, the rest of the books are longer (over 100,000) and end with cliffhangers?Whatever works. Hell, a friend of mine wrote a stand alone without "series" even entering his mind. The publisher liked it so much, the contract was for 3 books, with the main character of the first book as the star of the other two. In that case, it was the publisher that decided it should be a series.

[Lenora Rose]

Ok, I'll throw THIS out for discussion:

What if a novel series begins with a stand-alone novel (average "first novel" length - around 80,000 words) and then after that, the rest of the books are longer (over 100,000) and end with cliffhangers?

That would be why I only said "look for a way to make book one feel complete on its own, even if the rest never can."

And Uncle Jim said something similar on the first page.

[LightShadow]

All of my books are stand alone, yet have the opportunity to become a series if called upon to do so. That's my stance on it, anyway.

[Mark]

EG, I went the opposite way, so I really lke reading this thread and your other posts.

A few years ago I decided to write a book. 10 guys, one week, one shore house. Each had their own conflict and their stories were shuffled all together since they were all friends staying in the same house for that week. It turned out to be 330,000 words when I finished it.

Now you know, no one is going to publish this book since I have never been published. It's too long for an unproven author. Agents have let me know in their rejections.

So, now I am toying with breaking it down like your novel series. However, the question is how? Ten books, one for each character? That would have a lot of overlapping scenes in each book since all the characters interact. There are two guys who were twin brothers, so I tried pulling their story out as a stand alone. The problem is that the next book would have a lot of the same scenes, even if they are from different perspectives. Would the reader enjoy this or hate the repitition?

Seven books, one for each day? Not every day is a stand alone book and many resoultions don't occur to the last two days.

I even thought of changing it to a screen play for a TV series for a station like HBO, but my lack of screenwriting talent and odds against getting it read deter me.

So, since you are coming from one direction (starting a novel series) and I am coming from the other (breaking down a novel), I like reading this thread. I am curious about reading these series discussions. If anyone has any advice, please give it because right now this book is just a file on my laptop collecting e-dust.

In the meantime, I am working on getting two YA novels published (sports and detective) I am hoping to use them as a stepping stone into the industry. Also, my WIP is similar, but only five characters on a pub crawl and it's only for one day (3/4 of the way done). Maybe this can help me get my foot in the door when I finish it.

[katdad]

I am still in the development stages. I have passages written, but no "one" book is complete. The story is very complex and I've come to the point where I need to write out a detailed outline of the story and make sure everything fits and nothing contradicts something else. My series has 80+ characters and a plan of seven huge novels. I need a detailed outline before going any further. I'm still deciding if I should write all seven novels BEFORE I submit to an agent. Since the books aren't standalone, a publisher may want to release each book in the series close to each other.

I plan to write another book and try to get THAT published before I propose my huge series. I have better chances that way.

Let me see if I understand --- you're writing a series of 7 novels, all linked, with 80 characters, and none of the books stands alone?

And you haven't yet finished any one book?

I hope you plan to live a long time and have several devoted children so they can keep your manuscripts online and read them from time to time.

I would recommend that you actually FINISH something before working on other things.

And if you, say, finish one or 2 books, what can you submit to an agent? If the books are linked such that no single stands alone, it may be zero to impossible to get anyone's attention.

Maybe you're better off putting them on your website and just let people read them for free, because no agent or publisher will EVER consider buying this from a non-established newbie.

What is your publishing history? and by that, I mean PAID stuff that you were actually paid real money for things that you wrote? Reason I ask is that you may be setting yourself up for a long fall into disappointment.

[katdad]

Ok, I'll throw THIS out for discussion:

What if a novel series begins with a stand-alone novel (average "first novel" length - around 80,000 words) and then after that, the rest of the books are longer (over 100,000) and end with cliffhangers?

I'm not sure if you would be able to keep folks buying them (or, before this, a publisher interested in buying it from you!)

There are cliffhangers and cliff-danglers. If you tell a 'complete' story in 1 novel yet set up unresolved details and continuing threads that may be resolved later, that's okay.

But if the central plot continues FOREVER then you'll irritate the readers (and more important, you won't have readers because no publisher will buy the books in the first place)

For example -- in my "Mitch King Mystery" series, I tell a central story about a missing runaway trophy wife and how it ends up in a brutal murder. That story is resolved in "Sudden Storm" but there are also ongoing themes and stories about my main characters that are not close to being resolved.

My principal character is beset with insecurity and angst about his failed life -- he's blown a career and a marriage and most of his friends off -- and he isn't getting better.

He's knotted up with guilt and personal self-doubt and cannot come to grips with his persona. This leads him to act rashly and he gets himself into deep trouble with the law, with his best pals, and with his life.

The central plot of the murder and missing wife is resolved, but the ongoing personal problems of the protag are just beginning.

Therefore I tell a 'complete' story but also keep the reader interested (or I hope to) because the reader has 'invested' personal interest in the protag and hopefully wants to see how he resolves his crisis (or fails to) in the next book.

If you don't resolve certain plot issues within each book, you're gonna send the readers screaming off into the night... honest.

[B.L. Robinson]

I am currently working on a fantasy series with at least ten books in it. But I made sure that each book can stand on its own, leaving just enough open to lure the reader in to buying the next one! I have the outlines all laid out, and my cast of characters. I try to work on each book a little bit every month, other than the main one that I am writing. (I have a bit of the rebel in me and insist on being different, I am told!)

Right now, I am still writing for myself, just to get the stories out of my head and onto the computer. Once I start seeing things that arent there in the manuscript, I print it out and bind it myself into a 6x9 for proofreading purposes. It is amazing how much more I see when I am reading it like a "normal" book!

Bruce

[LightShadow]

Ought we not just worry about one book at a time. How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

[B.L. Robinson]

I thrive on the stress, Doug. I plan on writing the last word and exploding into little pieces. And I really don't worry about any of them, it is so much fun writing that I could care less about selling them at this point in time. If they get picked up, fine, if not I will buy a ISBN and a bar code and bind and sell them myself! I can never afford to retire any way, so might as well be doing something that I enjoy, right?

Bruce

[LightShadow]

I agree to a point, Bruce, and I love to write so much that when I was in the U.S. Navy when I wasn't on watch or working, I could always be found in my rack with a spiral binder writing away. Now that I am oh, so much older, when I'm not at work, or out with my gal, I'm writing. Thing is, what I am describing is larger projects and the tedious task of re-reading and re-writing and fixing and formatting and copyediting and such. It's basically done line by line, and it can be overwhelming, and that is why I stress patience and ease. Take care of it one word at a time, and if you do it right, then you will be selling them and retiring as a full time writer and such.

[E.G. Gammon]

What if my novel series began with a stand-alone novel, that's focus is on 10 of the 80 main characters throughout my complex series, then Book Two suddenly shifts focus on not only those 10 characters, but the rest of them as well, for the rest of the seven non-standalone novels of the series? Is that sudden shift of focus a good idea?

The reason why the series is structured that way now, is because the novel that's focus is only on 10 of the main characters was to be the prequel, which has now been reworked to be the first novel of the series so the series can have the first book be a stand-alone.

[gusdigger]

Does anyone know of an agenmt looking to repesenta writer wwith 3 Crime dramas set in detroit. I allso have them published as e-book. can someone recomend an aggency?

[lucidzfl]

Two potential responses:

1. Holy undead thread revival batman!

2. May I recommend a spell checker?

[Stormhawk]

This is...some pretty impressive thread necromancy.

[Wren Emerson]

Did E.G. Gammon ever write his series? Inquiring minds want to know!

[WriteMinded]

Did E.G. Gammon ever write his series? Inquiring minds want to know!Exactly what I wanted to know.

Hey there, E.G., how's that huge series going?