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View Full Version : Visiting Minister @ Palin's church prayed for 'witchcraft' protection


Disa
09-25-2008, 02:49 PM
Umm...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26880901

cethklein
09-25-2008, 03:05 PM
I didn't think Obama's pastor should be held against him and the same goes for Palin. although I'd like to hear the opinions of those who DID think Wright should be held against Obama on tis issue.

Let's face it people, I'm fairly religious but I'll openly admit that there are whack job pastors out there in all faiths.

donroc
09-25-2008, 03:23 PM
20 years with Wright as a mentor vs. a blessing from a visiting preacher? Yeah, that is equivalent. ;)

Disa
09-25-2008, 03:27 PM
Well, being that I don't equate witchcraft with evil, I found the piece a little unnerving.

This quote:

"Even in the days of Jesus Christ, according to the Bible there were witches who were manifesting through demonic forces," she said. "You can seek from the Lord, and if you find demonic forces you cast them out."

This leans towards religious intolerance, to me. I'm pretty sure that casting out witches might not be the way to go these days. Maybe I'm reading more into it than what's there, but it struck a nerve.

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 03:44 PM
I didn't think Obama's pastor should be held against him and the same goes for Palin. although I'd like to hear the opinions of those who DID think Wright should be held against Obama on tis issue.

Let's face it people, I'm fairly religious but I'll openly admit that there are whack job pastors out there in all faiths.
Yes, ceremonial prayer to 'protection from witchcraft' is the same as 'God Damn America' and 'US government spread AIDS to blacks'. Same thing.

Don
09-25-2008, 04:07 PM
I didn't think Obama's pastor should be held against him and the same goes for Palin. although I'd like to hear the opinions of those who DID think Wright should be held against Obama on tis issue.

Let's face it people, I'm fairly religious but I'll openly admit that there are whack job pastors out there in all faiths.
Yes, there are all kinds of wacky people in the world, but we expect our Presidents to exercise judgement, and be at least a little smarter than the average victim of con artists. Personally, I believe both Obama and Palin should be kept far away from positions of power until they learn to distinguish the difference between fact and fiction.
20 years with Wright as a mentor vs. a blessing from a visiting preacher? Yeah, that is equivalent. ;)
Here we get deeper into the issue. A one-time blessing from a traveling con man is considerably less damaging than claiming someone has been your mentor for 20 years, then disclaiming the things they say.
Yes, ceremonial prayer to 'protection from witchcraft' is the same as 'God Damn America' and 'US government spread AIDS to blacks'. Same thing.
And finally, the messages deserve comparison as well. Again, in this case, I believe the racial hatred that huckster Wright spews is much more dangerous than asking one invisible, unproven diety to provide protection from a different set of invisible, unproven dieties. One case is grounded in reality, the other in opinion (or belief, if you prefer that term).

Let's also note that Obama will have more direct control than Palin, so voodoo like this is relatively more noteworthy in his case.

I don't want either one of these 'whack jobs' (the candidates, not the preachers) involved in my government, but I would have expected this question to come from a Palin partisan, not an Obama one, since Obama so clearly fails the comparison.

Christine N.
09-25-2008, 04:09 PM
One big, huge, glaring difference.

Obama has left the church and publicly decried the actions of his preacher. Has said in public that he doesn not agree with the pastor's actions.

Palin has yet to separate herself from this bunch of wackadoos, who not only pray for witchcraft protection, but feel that they can "cure homosexuality". When/if Palin comes out and says this isn't what she believes, I'll certainly listen. But she's already known for being pretty far right, so I won't hold my breath.

ErylRavenwell
09-25-2008, 04:10 PM
Yes, ceremonial prayer to 'protection from witchcraft' is the same as 'God Damn America' and 'US government spread AIDS to blacks'. Same thing.

How are you going to explain the fact that the ritual is directed specifically at Pallin? The woman's a lunatic. It's the degree of involvement that matters.

johnnysannie
09-25-2008, 04:16 PM
How are you going to explain the fact that the ritual is directed specifically at Pallin? The woman's a lunatic.

Just the point I wanted to make.

Wright's rant was part of a sermon, not directed specifically to or for Obama.

This "blessing" was for Palin and no one else.

Thus it is a rather different issue and to me, a very scary one. Palin has already demonstrated a far right religious position and to be "protected" against "witches" is a slam against anyone who practices wicca or even paganism.

If this woman is elected - which I hope she is not - religious tolerance and the seperation of church and state are going down the tubes.

Don
09-25-2008, 04:17 PM
One big, huge, glaring difference.

Obama has left the church and publicly decried the actions of his preacher. Has said in public that he doesn not agree with the pastor's actions.

Palin has yet to separate herself from this bunch of wackadoos, who not only pray for witchcraft protection, but feel that they can "cure homosexuality". When/if Palin comes out and says this isn't what she believes, I'll certainly listen. But she's already known for being pretty far right, so I won't hold my breath.
So stabbing your 'mentor' in the back and leaving him to bleed out on the floor when his opinions are brought into focus is a good thing to do?

I'm not religious, but I seem to remember some guy named Judas who did the same thing to HIS mentor when things got tough, and he's not too highly regarded in the religion game, from what I understand.

Putting this slightly delusional behavior of Palin's on the same level as the long-term black supremacist and separatist mentoring from Wright is one of the worst examples of partisanship I've seen yet this election.

Disa
09-25-2008, 04:32 PM
Thus it is a rather different issue and to me, a very scary one. Palin has already demonstrated a far right religious position and to be "protected" against "witches" is a slam against anyone who practices wicca or even paganism.

If this woman is elected - which I hope she is not - religious tolerance and the seperation of church and state are going down the tubes.

This is what I was getting at, you said it much better :)

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 04:52 PM
Just the point I wanted to make.

Wright's rant was part of a sermon, not directed specifically to or for Obama.

This "blessing" was for Palin and no one else.

Thus it is a rather different issue and to me, a very scary one. Palin has already demonstrated a far right religious position and to be "protected" against "witches" is a slam against anyone who practices wicca or even paganism.

If this woman is elected - which I hope she is not - religious tolerance and the seperation of church and state are going down the tubes.
Aren't you one for hyperbole

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 04:57 PM
One big, huge, glaring difference.

Obama has left the church and publicly decried the actions of his preacher. Has said in public that he doesn not agree with the pastor's actions.

Palin has yet to separate herself from this bunch of wackadoos, who not only pray for witchcraft protection, but feel that they can "cure homosexuality". When/if Palin comes out and says this isn't what she believes, I'll certainly listen. But she's already known for being pretty far right, so I won't hold my breath.
No offence, but you are repeating rumors (http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/06/and-no-shes-not-a-religious-extremist-either/) again:

One of the musical directors at the church, Adele Morgan, who has known Ms. Palin since the third grade, said the Palins moved to the nondenominational Wasilla Bible Church in 2002, in part because its ministry is less “extreme” than Pentecostal churches like the Assemblies of God, which practice speaking in tongues and miraculous healings.
“A lot of churches are about music and media and having a big profile,” Ms. Morgan said. “We are against that. That is why it is so attractive to politicians because they can just sit there and be safe.”
“We’ve gotten a lot of their people when the other churches get too extreme,” Ms. Morgan continued. However, she added, “If you lift your hands when we’re singing, we’re not going to shoot you down.”
And she didn't wait to the story breaking in the national news to leave.

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 04:59 PM
How are you going to explain the fact that the ritual is directed specifically at Pallin? The woman's a lunatic. It's the degree of involvement that matters.
As an Obama supporter, I think you shouldn't go there. You can't win this arguement, because Palin's problem here is personal peculiarities and beliefs at worst and Obama's is lack of judgement at best and long time knowingly associating with a bigot and hate promoter at worst.

steveg144
09-25-2008, 05:04 PM
Umm...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26880901

As someone who considers himself a philosophical Pagan and a practical atheist, I've trained myself to look at the various incarnations of religious boobosity in the US with a degree of amusement and detachment. These kinds of things are no different from the superstitious antics of primitive tribes who paint their asses blue, bay at the moon, and enjoy dung for Sunday dinner.

Of course, there is that whole "finger on the nucular trigger" thing to take into consideration, and frankly the only one of the four I'd sincerely trust with the launch codes is Biden. Palin's a snake-handling end-times religious loonie-tune, Obama's had that spine-ectomy operation that's so popular among DC politicians, and McCain would use the launch codes to pay back the "gooks" for what they did to him in the Hanoi Hilton.

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 05:08 PM
As someone who considers himself a philosophical Pagan and a practical atheist, I've trained myself to look at the various incarnations of religious boobosity in the US with a degree of amusement and detachment. These kinds of things are no different from the superstitious antics of primitive tribes who paint their asses blue, bay at the moon, and enjoy dung for Sunday dinner.

Of course, there is that whole "finger on the nucular trigger" thing to take into consideration, and frankly the only one of the four I'd sincerely trust with the launch codes is Biden. Palin's a snake-handling end-times religious loonie-tune, Obama's had that spine-ectomy operation that's so popular among DC politicians, and McCain would use the launch codes to pay back the "gooks" for what they did to him in the Hanoi Hilton.
Wow... Just wow. We are all in for hyperbole today, aren't we

donroc
09-25-2008, 05:11 PM
Wright attacked, cursed, and damned the USA and white people and praised Farrakhan and Hamas for 20+ years, but only when he personally attacked Obama did it matter enough for the candidate to dump his beloved mentor.

Too many on the left ( I did not say all) are truly equivalency-challenged when confronted with unpleasant truths.

steveg144
09-25-2008, 05:11 PM
Wow... Just wow. We are all in for hyperbole today, aren't we

Nothing quite like it to start off another glorious day! :tongue

Takvah
09-25-2008, 05:17 PM
This kind of thing occurs at churches all across this country all the time. Guest pastors from Africa are pretty common and most of the time there is an incorporation of protections from "witchcraft" (which seems to be a demonic equivalent in Africa). I suppose Palin should have recoiled and rebuked the man? Racist hatemongering vs. a religious warding... uhmmmm hmmmm... comparable.

johnnysannie
09-25-2008, 05:22 PM
Aren't you one for hyperbole

No, no hyperbole today. Just the unvarnished reality.

Homeland Security has already cut deeper into our American freedoms than most people realize and most won't miss religious tolerance or seperation (church and state) until it is gone.

Until suddenly children are forced to learn that Creationism is the only explanation for mankind, fundamentalists lash out against so-called "cult" religions like Catholicism, politicians like Palin move against Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, and such to "protect" the nation, and the freedom to worship as we want or not at all is gone, most people won't care, not until it's too late.

Takvah
09-25-2008, 05:27 PM
No, no hyperbole today. Just the unvarnished reality.

Homeland Security has already cut deeper into our American freedoms than most people realize and most won't miss religious tolerance or seperation (church and state) until it is gone.

Until suddenly children are forced to learn that Creationism is the only explanation for mankind, fundamentalists lash out against so-called "cult" religions like Catholicism, politicians like Palin move against Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, and such to "protect" the nation, and the freedom to worship as we want or not at all is gone, most people won't care, not until it's too late.

Look out Goths, they're coming for you! Somebody tell Robert Smith to get into hiding please... I happen to like The Cure.

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 05:28 PM
No, no hyperbole today. Just the unvarnished reality.

Homeland Security has already cut deeper into our American freedoms than most people realize and most won't miss religious tolerance or seperation (church and state) until it is gone.

Until suddenly children are forced to learn that Creationism is the only explanation for mankind, fundamentalists lash out against so-called "cult" religions like Catholicism, politicians like Palin move against Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, and such to "protect" the nation, and the freedom to worship as we want or not at all is gone, most people won't care, not until it's too late.
Johnny, I know your stances. The problem with them that they have no basis in reality. The rumors about "forcing to learn creationism", "abstinence only" etc. are just that -- rumors. And debunked rumors at that. The facts are -- Palin was in a position to push for creationism in the curriculum or to change sex ed to "abstinence only" as Governor of Alaska, yet she didn't do it. So, yes, you r post is fear mongering and hyperbole at its worst (and not for the first time). Claiming that your opponent is the devil and would lead to end of US is something that GWB might say (I specifically name him because I know how you feel about him). It is also the path to totalitarism. After all, if your enemy is evil, you would be justified to take what steps necessary to defeat him (this is intentional hyperbole).

III
09-25-2008, 05:28 PM
The title of the article is certainly misleading. A visiting speaker offering a blessing hardly qualifies for the title of "Palin pastor". Also, witchcraft is a very different part of Kenyan culture than it is in America and prayers for protection from witchcraft are part and parcel in Kenyan churches. When foreign missionaries visit churches and offer a blessing, it's generally considered rude to diss their culture.

And for anyone who's interested, a Biblical model of praying for leaders comes from 1 Timothy 2:1-2

I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.

Takvah
09-25-2008, 05:32 PM
Also, witchcraft is a very different part of Kenyan culture than it is in America and prayers for protection from witchcraft are part and parcel in Kenyan churches. When foreign missionaries visit churches and offer a blessing, it's generally considered rude to diss their culture.

And for anyone who's interested, a Biblical model of praying for leaders comes from 1 Timothy 2:1-2


Oh.... oh.... this just won't do... you're making sense. I've been to several churches where there have been guest speakers from Africa and to the last they all do this... thank you for backing that up.

InfinityGoddess
09-25-2008, 05:57 PM
Johnny, I know your stances. The problem with them that they have no basis in reality. The rumors about "forcing to learn creationism", "abstinence only" etc. are just that -- rumors. And debunked rumors at that. The facts are -- Palin was in a position to push for creationism in the curriculum or to change sex ed to "abstinence only" as Governor of Alaska, yet she didn't do it. So, yes, you r post is fear mongering and hyperbole at its worst (and not for the first time). Claiming that your opponent is the devil and would lead to end of US is something that GWB might say (I specifically name him because I know how you feel about him). It is also the path to totalitarism. After all, if your enemy is evil, you would be justified to take what steps necessary to defeat him (this is intentional hyperbole).

I would suggest some reading about the Assemblies of God sect before calling certain rumors debunked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assemblies_of_God

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/index.cfm

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 06:07 PM
I would suggest some reading about the Assemblies of God sect before calling certain rumors debunked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assemblies_of_God

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/index.cfm
IG, we've been through this. a) Palin left AoG quiete a while ago. b) She stated her positions on those issues herself and i for one tend to take her words over ascribing her some beliefs others might hold (i.e. AoG).

EDIT: If you go by this token, Obama believes everything his church and his pastor believes -- not a pretty picture

Sheryl Nantus
09-25-2008, 06:11 PM
Nothing quite like it to start off another glorious day! :tongue

Preach it, brother!

Do I have a Hallelujah and Amen?

:D

seriously, this has got to be the stupidest election campaign I've ever seen in TWO countries. The amount of hatemongering, rumormongering and just plain old lying has risen to new levels. On both sides.

I have no idea what you all are going to do the day after the election.

:)

Takvah
09-25-2008, 06:12 PM
TRIG IS HER GRANDCHILD! isn't cutting it anymore... so now it's... she's a religious nutter.

Meanwhile, I will say it again... Obama is having coffee fundraisers with terrorists, being mentored as well as "brought to Jesus" by a racist, adulterous, hatemonger while being ushered through the halls of the Illinois political system by a felon.

Ugh. Priorities, people.

Cranky
09-25-2008, 06:15 PM
Preach it, brother!

Do I have a Hallelujah and Amen?

:D

seriously, this has got to be the stupidest election campaign I've ever seen in TWO countries. The amount of hatemongering, rumormongering and just plain old lying has risen to new levels. On both sides.

I have no idea what you all are going to do the day after the election.

:)

I'm just trying to stay out of it until after the election. Then, maybe, things will be normal. There isn't much discussion anymore. People have (for the most part) made up their minds, so it's just so much sloganeering and everyone spinning things to favor their candidate.

Not remotely interesting.

Pass the tequila and the TV remote. Isn't CSI's season premiere on tonight? :D

InfinityGoddess
09-25-2008, 06:15 PM
IG, we've been through this. a) Palin left AoG quiete a while ago. b) She stated her positions on those issues herself and i for one tend to take her words over ascribing her some beliefs others might hold (i.e. AoG).

I don't. AoG does not let its members go so easily. She only left that particular church so that she can worship in a church closer to her offices in Juneau.

As I've said, I have a friend whose family is in the AoG, and I have read articles written by former members online. One former member has his family in hiding because he's afraid of the AoG sending its members out to harass him into going back. I would suggest reading up on a guy by the screenname of dogemporer, who has intimate knowledge on the sect as he is the former member that I speak of. He has a diary at DailyKos.


EDIT: If you go by this token, Obama believes everything his church and his pastor believes -- not a pretty picture

Sarah Palin's former pastor make Wright look like a nice guy in comparison. At least he wasn't out witch-hunting in Kenya, a practice where women are known to be horribly mutilated and killed when in suspicion.

Takvah
09-25-2008, 06:16 PM
Ewww... CSI? Does Survivor start tonight?

Me, I can't wait for Dexter Sunday night!

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 06:19 PM
I don't. AoG does not let its members go so easily. She only left that particular church so that she can worship in a church closer to her offices in Juneau.

As I've said, I have a friend whose family is in the AoG, and I have read articles written by former members online. One former member has his family in hiding because he's afraid of the AoG sending its members out to harass him into going back. I would suggest reading up on a guy by the screenname of dogemporer, who has intimate knowledge on the sect as he is the former member that I speak of. He has a diary at DailyKos.
Enough is enough. And I have a dog that can fly. The fact that you keep repeating the same stuff doesn't make it true. You've been pretty quick to exhonerate Obama from his pastor's views. I guess, the same thing doesn't go for the candidate you don't support. Nevermind she said the contrary. Nevermind she left the church well before she became the candidate (as opposed to Obama who left only when it became inconvinient). Unless you have specific way to link Palin to those beliefs or directly contradict her official stances, we have nothing to talk about.

Sheryl Nantus
09-25-2008, 06:25 PM
Pass the tequila and the TV remote. Isn't CSI's season premiere on tonight? :D

I wish it were - next week.

until then, more promos of Grissom screaming at the sky with Warrick's bloody body in his arms. Quite angsty!

:D

although I'm not looking forward as much to Sidle's return as some folks - I really didn't like the way they sent her off. But that's just me.

p.s. I love the way that Christianity is now the new bogeyman.

;)

Cranky
09-25-2008, 06:29 PM
Damn. Oh well. And personally, I wish Sidle would Stay Away. Bleah. :D

Christianity has been a bogeyman for awhile now. It just took a backseat to the Muslim bogeyman for a bit. Round and round we go!

InfinityGoddess
09-25-2008, 06:30 PM
Enough is enough. And I have a dog that can fly. The fact that you keep repeating the same stuff doesn't make it true. You've been pretty quick to exhonerate Obama from his pastor's views. I guess, the same thing doesn't go for the candidate you don't support. Nevermind she said the contrary. Nevermind she left the church well before she became the candidate (as opposed to Obama who left only when it became inconvinient). Unless you have specific way to link Palin to those beliefs or directly contradict her official stances, we have nothing to talk about.

Obama gets a pass from me because he knows that people aren't going to agree with his views all of the time. With Palin, I meet with skepticism, simply because of what I know of the AoG and its beliefs. I've already linked you to their position papers a few times already. From their own website, no less.

Therefore, I think we can consider this done. Because you aren't going to at least read up on these folks to get a better sense of what they're about. Here's a hint: Think Pat Robertson.

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 06:34 PM
Obama gets a pass from me because he knows that people aren't going to agree with his views all of the time. With Palin, I meet with skepticism, simply because of what I know of the AoG and its beliefs. I've already linked you to their position papers a few times already. From their own website, no less.

Therefore, I think we can consider this done. Because you aren't going to at least read up on these folks to get a better sense of what they're about. Here's a hint: Think Pat Robertson.
I bolded the key part. Palin expressly said what her positions were. The part about Obama is simply unclear.
And no I am not going to read irrelevant things. I have Palin's own statements and actions to judge her, not position of a group she no longer part of.

InfinityGoddess
09-25-2008, 06:38 PM
I bolded the key part. Palin expressly said what her positions were. The part about Obama is simply unclear.
And no I am not going to read irrelevant things. I have Palin's own statements and actions to judge her, not position of a group she no longer part of.

I've not seen them and even if I did, I'd still doubt her sincerity, and I think AoG's positions are very relevant in this matter.

dmytryp
09-25-2008, 06:47 PM
I've not seen them and even if I did, I'd still doubt her sincerity, and I think AoG's positions are very relevant in this matter.
I've linked them several times. And her actions vis-a-vis changes in the educational surriculum of Alaska speak for themselves.

tiny
09-25-2008, 06:52 PM
Obama gets a pass from me because he knows that people aren't going to agree with his views all of the time.


Obama gets a pass from you because he's who you want to win just like McCain gets a pass from those who want him to win.




Witchcraft, blessings, grandchildren, flying dogs, bridges to sell, what a load of shit. Palin has a witchy nose, Obama has big ears, McCain is short, Biden is a lunatic..... bla bla bla. That's what this has been reduced to. Opinions being tossed back and forth.

InfinityGoddess
09-25-2008, 06:56 PM
I've linked them several times. And her actions vis-a-vis changes in the educational surriculum of Alaska speak for themselves.

To which I have a tough time believing, given the nature of the AoG as a church. We're just going in circles with this, dm.

Sheryl Nantus
09-25-2008, 07:21 PM
Witchcraft, blessings, grandchildren, flying dogs, bridges to sell, what a load of shit. Palin has a witchy nose, Obama has big ears, McCain is short, Biden is a lunatic..... bla bla bla. That's what this has been reduced to. Opinions being tossed back and forth.

you forgot that (fill in your opposition's name here) also eats babies.

I saw it online.

it must be true.

and if (fill in name here) isn't/is (fill in your religious beliefs here, if any) then they must be Evil And Not Allowed to Rule.

the amount of ignorance you Americans have about how laws are passed in your own country really scares me. Seriously. You really have NO idea about how your own government works.

tres sad.

:(

Celia Cyanide
09-25-2008, 07:28 PM
the amount of ignorance you Americans have about how laws are passed in your own country really scares me. Seriously. You really have NO idea about how your own government works.

tres sad.

:(

Can I ask where this came from? Did you read THIS online, too?

I know how a bill becomes a law. Sorry to disappoint.

Don
09-25-2008, 07:36 PM
Can I ask where this came from? Did you read THIS online, too?

I know how a bill becomes a law. Sorry to disappoint.
I don't think she overstated the case by much. You know, I know... but my guess is that far less than 51% of the people have a clue, or even think it's worth knowing.

mscelina
09-25-2008, 07:39 PM
Sorry, Sheryl--I have to agree with Celia here. Some of 'us Americans' are extremely aware of how our government works.

Aware enough, I think, to recognize that there's no way in hell that a Vice President could chunk the separation of church and state from the Constitution. Obviously, that awareness doesn't extend to everyone in this thread but nonetheless--

A sweeping generalization, Sheryl. One that's not remotely fair or accurate.

Sheryl Nantus
09-25-2008, 07:42 PM
Sorry, Sheryl--I have to agree with Celia here. Some of 'us Americans' are extremely aware of how our government works.

Aware enough, I think, to recognize that there's no way in hell that a Vice President could chunk the separation of church and state from the Constitution. Obviously, that awareness doesn't extend to everyone in this thread but nonetheless--

A sweeping generalization, Sheryl. One that's not remotely fair or accurate.

hey, I don't mind being proven wrong - but from the hysteria I'm seeing on this board many of your own citizens don't really understand how the system works and that things don't change at the whim of a President or a Vice-President or even a Senator. There are checks and balances in the system that are there precisely to stop that.

maybe the hyperbole is getting to me.

;)

Celia Cyanide
09-25-2008, 07:43 PM
I don't think she overstated the case by much. You know, I know... but my guess is that far less than 51% of the people have a clue, or even think it's worth knowing.

less than 51% of the people in this forum? Because it would seem that when you say, "you Americans" in a thread like this, that is what you are implying.

kuwisdelu
09-25-2008, 07:43 PM
Thus it is a rather different issue and to me, a very scary one. Palin has already demonstrated a far right religious position and to be "protected" against "witches" is a slam against anyone who practices wicca or even paganism.

I'm going to go out and defend Palin and her pastor on this one. As some have pointed out already, the concept of "witches" and "demons" to this pastor and many is a far, far cry from modern wicca and "paganism" (which is a vague term, and really just refers to anything non-Christian...). With that in mind, unless the pastor directly referenced wiccans, pagans, etc., a call for protection against witchcraft has nothing to do with wiccans or "pagans" (of which, being an American Indian, I am one). It may in the minds of some of the congregation, but I doubt it did to the pastor or Palin.

My tribe routinely has medicine men bless homes of the sick for protection against witches and things like this, and in my culture, it has nothing to do with wiccans, but rather with our idea of "evil spirits." Unless wiccans consider themselves "evil spirits" or "demons," I'd say there's nothing to be offended about, other than the use of the term "witch," which is a bit silly--it's just a word that anyone can use and has multiple meanings to different people.

Do you think modern-day Satanists worship a Satan that bears a whole lot of resemblance to the traditional Christian view of Satan?

If this woman is elected - which I hope she is not - religious tolerance and the seperation of church and state are going down the tubes.

/defense

With the way McCain's been showing his age lately, I'm with you there.

Sheryl Nantus
09-25-2008, 07:44 PM
I've been told that I have to qualify myself, being a Canadian living in the US. Otherwise people get all snarly and tell me my opinion ain't worth diddly.

Which may still happen, but I have to qualify it.

:D

Takvah
09-25-2008, 07:46 PM
Hey it could be worse... she could be a Scientologist.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:-Tp7HOwDQlgtfM:http://www.scientomogy.com/stopscientology/xenu6.jpg

Celia Cyanide
09-25-2008, 07:47 PM
Do you think modern-day Satanists worship a Satan that bears a whole lot of resemblance to the traditional Christian view of Satan?

I don't think they worship Satan at all.

Sheryl Nantus
09-25-2008, 07:47 PM
Hey it could be worse... she could be a Scientologist.

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:-Tp7HOwDQlgtfM:http://www.scientomogy.com/stopscientology/xenu6.jpg

ooh... just imagine the White House tours then!

:D

mscelina
09-25-2008, 07:49 PM
South Park episodes would abound...

kuwisdelu
09-25-2008, 07:51 PM
I don't think they worship Satan at all.

Depends on the church. There are many various forms of Satanism. Theistic Satanists do worship Satan, but he's a much different guy than Christianity's version.

InfinityGoddess
09-25-2008, 07:56 PM
and if (fill in name here) isn't/is (fill in your religious beliefs here, if any) then they must be Evil And Not Allowed to Rule.

the amount of ignorance you Americans have about how laws are passed in your own country really scares me. Seriously. You really have NO idea about how your own government works.



I am aware about how the government works, however, it should be notable that there are public officials who do, in fact, inject their religious beliefs into their public policy positions (issues such as reproductive rights, LGBT issues, creationism in public schools, separation of church and state, etc). I have no issue with people believing whatever religion they want, but so long as they don't try to impose their beliefs into public institutions and on the country as a whole.

Plot Device
09-25-2008, 07:59 PM
I am watching the video right now on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkViRp6W5oE

I intend to watch at least three different versions of the same video on YouTube before I pass judgement. And then I will get back to all you fine folks with my own opinion (for what it's worth).

Meanwhile I am going to make a very stern and (yes) angry statement:

None of you have any f--king business passing judgement on a religious ceremony if you neither understand the ceremony, nor even witnessed/taken part in such a ceremony yourselves. A lot of you here are outsiders looking in and don't have a damned clue as to which parts of such a ceremony are literal, which parts are merely poetic, and how it all ultimately impacts the outlook of the people who do take part in them. As for me, I have indeed taken part in exactly these kinds of ceremonies of prayer for protection from evil, so I will be viewing these videos from my own insider's perspective of what these kinds of ceremonies mean --and also from the perspective of what I know from over 20 years of experience what it is that they most certainly do NOT mean.




.

mscelina
09-25-2008, 08:02 PM
*hands Plot Device a valium*

It'll be okay. Really.

rugcat
09-25-2008, 08:18 PM
Aware enough, I think, to recognize that there's no way in hell that a Vice President could chunk the separation of church and state from the Constitution. Really. A vice president is basically a figurehead position, and there's no way a VP could, oh, i don't know, set up an entire domestic spying program despite constitutional problems or set policy on torture or push the nation into war or anything like that.

Seriously, I think Palin's influence on policy if elected will be negligible at best.

C.bronco
09-25-2008, 08:20 PM
This is a misprint. He actually prayed for World of Warcraft protection. He didn't want her to become overly absorbed with the game.

mscelina
09-25-2008, 08:23 PM
*grin*

Cheney wasn't just a vice president, though, was he? As I said in another thread, I think McCain is signalling quite heavily that HIS vice president won't be some kind of power broker behind the throne. Allowing for the constitutional position of the VP and McCain's traditionalist view on the second in command, I'd have to say that any such claims (Church and State, overturning Roe v Wade, blah blah blah) would pretty much have to be dismissed as hyperbolic. Hell--the president couldn't accomplish any of those things on his own without a whole lot of help from the other two branches of the government. Check and balances are real working cogs in our government machine as Sheryl pointed out earlier.

Takvah
09-25-2008, 08:25 PM
Palin isn't hunting... she's engaging in animal sacrifice. What a sick, bitch!

cethklein
09-25-2008, 08:51 PM
Yes, ceremonial prayer to 'protection from witchcraft' is the same as 'God Damn America' and 'US government spread AIDS to blacks'. Same thing.

When the hell did I ever say it was the same? I said calling people out for the actions of their pastor was wrong no matter what. I thought I made that quite clear. In fact, my opinion is that they are nowhere near comparable, but that's wasn't my point.

Yes, there are all kinds of wacky people in the world, but we expect our Presidents to exercise judgement, and be at least a little smarter than the average victim of con artists. Personally, I believe both Obama and Palin should be kept far away from positions of power until they learn to distinguish the difference between fact and fiction.


This is my opinion as well (is ok for me to claim that since someone else already stated my opinion for me?) Although i disagree about keeping them away from power. I don't feel either one of them believed in what these pastors said. Until they make the same statements from their own mouth, I don't have an issue. I don't believe in guilt by association unless there is proof that such a person follows such beliefs. Simply listening to a pastor doesn't equate believing in everything they do. If that were the case, few pastors would have very large congregations.

mscelina
09-25-2008, 08:55 PM
I thought you did too, cethklein. *sigh* There's a lot of tit for tat going on with this issue on both sides of the aisle. Fact of the matter is, personal religious affiliation shouldn't be part of the modern electoral process. When the Clinton camp beat the Obama's church issue to death, it was annoying and distracted from the major issues of the campaign. Same thing is happening here. If you argued against the backlash on Obama for the "God damn America" BS then you'd have to be far more than a hypocrite to try to make something out of this which is, after all, a stretch no matter how you look at it.

Monkey
09-25-2008, 09:16 PM
You can't hold candidates responsible for what other people say unless those other people happen to be close advisors or some such...

at which point, they still may not be representing the views of the candidate they work for. Who agrees with anyone 100%? It's not even fair to say, "you hired this person, now you must defend or refute everything they say, every single day, no matter how unrelated to their job or your position."

And yet the news jumps all over the words of pastors or donors or even just supporters. Geesh.

There's plenty to bash the candidates about...can't we leave this sort of stuff out of it?

Williebee
09-25-2008, 09:20 PM
I'm more saddened by the fact that the media is giving such weight to the words of ministers, and trying to make them matters of state.

When the color blind guy shouts "Red ties are Satanic!" should we attack the wearers with scissors?

Plot Device
09-25-2008, 09:42 PM
Here's what I watched:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkViRp6W5oE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAWM7E_WMfo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0utkTp7DTw&feature=related



He prayed a prayer of "petition" for Sarah Palin. Please note that the "petition" portion of his blessing over her makes up the bulk of most of the entire blessing. And then at the end he briefly takes an excursion out of "peition" and into "declaration."

First the "petition" part. He prayed for her to receive the following from God as she enters the political arena:

- God's favor
- God's grace
- God's grace to rain down upon her
- for God to make a way for her in the political arena (which means for God to provide a clear and accessible path for her and prevent any obstacles from blocking that path)
- for God to bring about financial backing for her political campaign
- for God (above all) to provide her with needed personel in the campaign
- for God to provide "men and women who will back her up" because "we want righteousness in this fair state" and because "we want righteousness in this nation" because [unintelligible, the digital audio got messed up]
- for God to use her to turn this nation around
- for God to use her "to turn the hearts of fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, so that the curse that is in the land can be broken" (that's a verse form the Bible, btw, Malachi 4:6 which says: "He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers; or else I will come and strike the land with a curse.") and his employment of that verse is indicative of his own concern over the plight of stable nuclear families. (In fact, I can almost guarantee that ANY contemporary preacher who ever employs that verse is doing to so express a concern for stable nuclear families.)

Now here's the part where he shifted his prayer from one of "petition" to one of "declararion." Here are the only two declarations he made:
- "We come against every hinderance of the enemy standing in her way today."
- "Every form of witchcraft is what we rebuke."
And then he swicthed back to "petition-mode" again.
- "Father, maker her way now."
And then he concluded the paryer.

A prayer of declaration is NOT a prayer in which a person tells God how things are going to be, nor where a puny human dictates any sort of demands to God. Instead it is a type of a public declaration of allegiance to God. The intended audience for the declaration is LITERALLY a human audience, but on a poetic level it is also simultaneously supposed to include a "spiritual audience" which means it's deliberately inclusive of any supposed angels or demons who might happen to be listening in as well. But this intent is only a symbolic one, not a literal one, and THIS is where a lot of outsiders just don't get it. This entire gesture is meant to be an injection of stage drama akin to Hamlet talking to a skull. The skull can't REALLY hear Hamlet's soliloquy, nor can the previous owner of that skull. But it's STILL regarded around the world as one of the most powerful and most brilliantly written scenes in the history of human theatre --no one laughs at or mocks Hamlet's conversation with the skull. So I take issue with anyone laughing at or mocking this kind of a prayer. If you don't "get" Hamlet, go sign up for a few courses in English Literature. And if you don't "get" these kinds of prayer sessions, take a cue from Margaret Mead and go immerse yourself in some real life exposure to real life people who actually partake of these kinds of religions. And renting Borat doesn't count.




I want to conclude this post with one explanation about his use of the phrase "the enemy."

There has been a very long-standing philosophical outlook in Christian thought dating back to the days of Martin Luther and John Bunyan regarding Satan, and this particular stance on Satan has precedent in the Bible. Specifically, the prescribed philosophy is to embrace the full notion that Satan really does exist, and yet simultaneoulsy to go through life utterly avoiding talking about him or even thinking about him. The justification of the philosophy is to deny giving Satan undeserved air time since God is the one who should more rightfully be talked about. Thomas Moore said:
"The devil... the prowde spirite... cannot endure to be mocked."
- Thomas More
And then there's good old CS Lewis:
"There are two equal and opposite errors into which our race can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them. They themselves are equally pleased by both errors and hail a materialist or a magician with the same delight." -- CS Lewis
These philosophies have ultimately percolated into modern Christian culture in the past several centuries such a way that yes, we believe Satan is real, but why bother to celebrate him? The old folk saying of "Speak of the Devil and he shall appear" is an admonition against giving him too much praise, implying that he will go where he is heralded, so if no one heralds him, then he has no place to go at all.

The outcropping of this decision to avoid talking about Satan is that when he DOES get spoken about, Christians try to avoid actually saying his name. So rather than say "the Devil" or "Satan," Christian will say "the enemy." So it's a euphemism.

Tolkien employed this exact concept in LotR when all of his many characters refused to say the name of Sauron and instead said "the enemy." And please note that their usage of the phrase "the enemy" all throughout the story included anyone who was in league with Sauron, not just Sauron himself.

And when CS Lewis wrote The Screwtape Letters, he deliberately inverted this well-established practice amongst Christians by having his demon Screwtape make frequent reference to "the Enemy" or "our Enemy" whenever Screwtape was in fact referring to God.

And in the Harry Potter books, JK Rowling does the same: the characters all refuse to say Voldemort's name, so they instead say things like "you know who" and "him" (with much dramatic inflection) and even "the enemy."


In the end, when Christians talk amongst themselves about any assortment of spiritual matters, they will employ many very peculiar words and phrases that an outsider probably won't understand, or (worse) will only half-way understand, and usually wind up taking the wrong way. So I just wnt to clarify that whenever you hear Christians mention "the enemy" they are referring to either one of the following three concepts, and you have the get a grip on the correct context each and every time to figure out which of these three that they really mean in any given instance:

1) Satan himself
2) an agent of Satan (such as a demon, even a low-ranking one)
2) any sort of manifestation of life circumstances that could potentially hail from the Kingdom of Darkness such as an unexplainable and laws-of-averages-defying bout of very bad luck

The use of "the enemy" is meant as a catch-all phrase employed with a cautious eye toward the need for Christians to super-streamline otherwise unsavory conversations that are capable of getting way out of hand into total weirdness. "The enemy" is thus a sanitized euphemism that prevents people from delving too deeply into the whole sordid concept of Satan and allows them to just skim the surface and get the point across in a more minimalist way. The dual-goal is 1) weirdness-avoidance and 2) keeping things positive and edifying.

Plot Device
09-25-2008, 09:44 PM
When the color blind guy shouts "Red ties are Satanic!" should we attack the wearers with scissors?


There's an almost zen-like quality to this statement of yours. :D

When a tree falls in the forest .....

donroc
09-25-2008, 09:53 PM
But does the one hand really clap? :Shrug:

dmytryp
09-26-2008, 12:05 AM
When the hell did I ever say it was the same? I said calling people out for the actions of their pastor was wrong no matter what. I thought I made that quite clear. In fact, my opinion is that they are nowhere near comparable, but that's wasn't my point.




You know, Ceth, I was going let this slide, but you had to leave me a rep point together with this, so I'll answer.
You specifically said:
I didn't think Obama's pastor should be held against him and the same goes for Palin. although I'd like to hear the opinions of those who DID think Wright should be held against Obama on tis issue.
The second part of your statement implies that people that thought Wright was important and this incident wasn't are hypocrites. Which would be true if the situations were comparable. Which I said in my post. In fact, you never said that "the two situations were incomparable". If you did, it would have undermined your whole arguement. So, I suggest you back off a bit.
As to the matter at hand -- the situation with Wright has nothing to do with Obama's personal religious beliefs. What the hell "God Damn America" and the rest of the crap he espoused has to do with his religious beliefs? The criticism of Obama was based on the fact that he held this man as his personal friend, part of his campaign and his mentor for twenty years. The expression "tell me who you friends are and I'll tell you who you are" is certainly somewhat simplistic, but it does have some validity, especially if this is part of the pattern (what would happen if one of the candidates chose a known extremist as part of his cmapign?).
The situation here, with Palin, is purely religious ceremony, which has zero impact on the outside world, unless you try to gouge some insight about her personality from this incident. Which you are more than free to do, but imo is really stretching it (for reasons pointed out in this thread already).

C.bronco
09-26-2008, 12:32 AM
With posts like mine, I simply am bewildered why I haven't graduated from Camp yet.

ClaudiaGray
09-26-2008, 01:01 AM
I haven't been holding anybody's pastors against them in this election before, and I won't start now. Lots of people go to church because they agree with 85% of what's being said and roll their eyes at another 15%. So I won't judge Palin.

I will judge that the visiting pastor is a nutjob, though. Witchcraft? WTF?

Christine N.
09-26-2008, 01:15 AM
So stabbing your 'mentor' in the back and leaving him to bleed out on the floor when his opinions are brought into focus is a good thing to do?

:ROFL:


You really believe that? What, no one can have a difference of opinion with their spiritual leader? You gotta do better than that. It happens every day - I personally know three people right off the top of my head that don't agree with their spirtual leader on certain issues.

Obama recognizes that his pastor is just a man, not a god, and therefore fallible. He's also a man who can think for himself, and knows when his beliefs differ from the hellfire and brimstone sermons of his pastor. And I don't want a blind follower for a leader, anyway. I want someone who is thoughtful about their religion, not a sheep.

So...uh-uh. Try again.

I'm not saying I actually hold this against Palin or not, only that I haven't seen any evidence that she feels this kind of behavior is inappropriate or not in her personal pantheon of beliefs.

Don
09-26-2008, 01:27 AM
:ROFL:

You really believe that? What, no one can have a difference of opinion with their spiritual leader? You gotta do better than that. It happens every day - I personally know three people right off the top of my head that don't agree with their spirtual leader on certain issues.

Obama recognizes that his pastor is just a man, not a god, and therefore fallible. He's also a man who can think for himself, and knows when his beliefs differ from the hellfire and brimstone sermons of his pastor. And I don't want a blind follower for a leader, anyway. I want someone who is thoughtful about their religion, not a sheep.

So...uh-uh. Try again.
Oh, baloney! Obama didn't have 'a difference of opinion' with his spiritual leader. He worshipped in that church for 20 years, even had the guy perform his marriage ceremony. Then, when people realized what a black supremacist Wright is, Obama stabbed him in the back, denied basic tenants of the church that had been posted on the web for years, and left the guy bleeding in a back alley, pretending he'd never heard such things in his life.

My comparison to Judas stands.

Christine N.
09-26-2008, 01:33 AM
Whatever dude. You want to vote for a sheep, be my guest. This IS still America.

Celia Cyanide
09-26-2008, 01:34 AM
Oh, baloney! Obama didn't have 'a difference of opinion' with his spiritual leader. He worshipped in that church for 20 years, even had the guy perform his marriage ceremony. Then, when people realized what a black supremacist Wright is, Obama stabbed him in the back, denied basic tenants of the church that had been posted on the web for years, and left the guy bleeding in a back alley, pretending he'd never heard such things in his life.

My comparison to Judas stands.

What should he have done? It seems that no matter what his reponse he's a horrible person.

Don
09-26-2008, 01:48 AM
What should he have done? It seems that no matter what his reponse he's a horrible person.
I'd say his first mistake was making a black supremacist his mentor. Sometime in that 20 years, you think he would have realized that.

Had this been the reverse situation with McCain, he never would have been the nominee.

rugcat
09-26-2008, 01:59 AM
I'd say his first mistake was making a black supremacist his mentor. Sometime in that 20 years, you think he would have realized that.

Had this been the reverse situation with McCain, he never would have been the nominee.I'm not sure McCain could have found a black supremacist to mentor him.

And characterizing Wright as a black supremest is convenient, but inaccurate.

dmytryp
09-26-2008, 03:37 PM
I'm not sure McCain could have found a black supremacist to mentor him.

And characterizing Wright as a black supremest is convenient, but inaccurate.

How about racist nutjob?

Christine N.
09-26-2008, 04:06 PM
He'd probably fall under the category of zealot and/or fanatic.

aruna
09-26-2008, 07:06 PM
So stabbing your 'mentor' in the back and leaving him to bleed out on the floor when his opinions are brought into focus is a good thing to do?
.

Nobody can really judge what goes on between a person and his/her mentor. I had a spiritual mentor who over at least 15 years had an enormous influence on me. He was a force for good, and helped me overcome huge hurdles within myself. I felt he knew me inside out, and in fact I'm sure he did; he was the embodiment of compassion and love, vey charismatic, intelligent, generous to a fault. But as in so many cases, his authority may have gone to his head. He collected hundreds of "devotees" who worshipped the ground he walked on. He got married to an equally charismatic and strong women and I believe that was his downfall, for slowly from that point on he began to change; she loved money and powerr, and he loved her (or was addicted to her) and gradually handed over the reins to her. One by one his oldest friends fell away from him. It took me about five years of fighting between doubt and loyaty to finally leave him myself, and only once I had taken that step I could open my eyes and see that he was a shadow of his former self.

It is extremely hard to leave a spiritual mentor. Usually it takes some catalystic event, something big; in my case, a letter from his wife that showed how basically evil she was. I left. Leaving was in no way a back-stabbing. It was a decision, a fight, that took courage and independence. But nobody in the world can judge what went on who wasn't there themself.

Religion and spirituality are personal matters and are best not judged by outsiders.

Where I break into a cold sweat is when a very religious person claims to know the will of God, or believes certain events (which happen to coincide with their own designs) are God's Will. These people project their personal beliefs onto the outside world, and if they are in a position of power that is very dangerous.

Also, witchcraft is a very different part of Kenyan culture than it is in America and prayers for protection from witchcraft are part and parcel in Kenyan churches. When foreign missionaries visit churches and offer a blessing, it's generally considered rude to diss their culture.


True.

I'm going to go out and defend Palin and her pastor on this one. As some have pointed out already, the concept of "witches" and "demons" to this pastor and many is a far, far cry from modern wicca and "paganism" (which is a vague term, and really just refers to anything non-Christian...). With that in mind, unless the pastor directly referenced wiccans, pagans, etc., a call for protection against witchcraft has nothing to do with wiccans or "pagans" (of which, being an American Indian, I am one). It may in the minds of some of the congregation, but I doubt it did to the pastor or Palin.

My tribe routinely has medicine men bless homes of the sick for protection against witches and things like this, and in my culture, it has nothing to do with wiccans, but rather with our idea of "evil spirits." Unless wiccans consider themselves "evil spirits" or "demons," I'd say there's nothing to be offended about, other than the use of the term "witch," which is a bit silly--it's just a word that anyone can use and has multiple meanings to different people.

Do you think modern-day Satanists worship a Satan that bears a whole lot of resemblance to the traditional Christian view of Satan?




This is all too true. When Americans refer to witches and witchcraft it is a very different thing to when someone from Africa or South America does so; it is not synonymous with paganism, and it took me a while to learn that.
I once attended a ceremony in the deepest Amazon where a so-called "witch doctor" drove away "evil spirits" aided by the hallucinogenic drug Ayahuasca, and blessed the particants by walking around humming and waving palm branches. It was very intense. She also "blessed" me personally by waving her branches over my head, after which the panic I was in (caused by evil spirits, no doubt!) immediately vanished. It was a very interesting experience but it does not make me beholden to her.

kuwisdelu
09-26-2008, 07:27 PM
aided by the hallucinogenic drug Ayahuasca

Ayahuasca.

Trip balls. Drive away demons. Get dewormed.

:D

aruna
09-26-2008, 08:20 PM
Ayahuasca.

Trip balls. Drive away demons. Get dewormed.

:D


ESPECIALLY that. Upstairs and downstairs purification. Exhumation.

rugcat
09-26-2008, 08:30 PM
There's been a lot of explanation about symbolic ideas re witches and witchcraft, but many sources have reported that the pastor in question has bragged that while in Kenya, he identified a woman as an actual witch who was causing harm to villagers there, got the police to raid her house, and forced her to leave town.

And apparently in Kenya, there are people who take witchcraft literally and very seriously indeed.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jJ9t5L-mEUjMX185__GCAH7uvx3g