McCain surrogate Fiorina taken off the media tour

[InfinityGoddess]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/16/fiorinas-comment-called-biden-like/

CNN) — Top McCain-Palin official Carly Fiorina is facing criticism from some within the campaign for a day of what they call "very Biden-like" comments, after the former Hewlett-Packard CEO told two separate interviewers that neither member of the Republican ticket would be capable of running a company.

Democratic VP nominee Joe Biden is noted for his off-the-cuff gaffes.


Asked by a St. Louis radio station whether she thought Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin could run a company like Hewlett-Packard, Fiorina responded: "No, I don't.


“But that's not what she's running for. Running a corporation is a different set of things."


Asked about that remark on MSNBC, she made the same unprompted assessment of the GOP presidential nominee. "I don't think John McCain could run a major corporation."


Rule number one in politics and in business: Never piss off the boss. Major whoopsie for Carly.

Pity, though. She was the gift that kept on giving.

[sassandgroove]

Why would an interviewer ask that anyway?

[donroc]

Incomplete quote. She also included Obama and Biden too. And said the Govt. is not the same as a corporation.

[InfinityGoddess]

Why would an interviewer ask that anyway?

Because that's their job.

Incomplete quote. She also included Obama and Biden too. And said the Govt. is not the same as a corporation.

True, but still, when you're shilling for your own boss, you probably ought to have just focused on the opposition and not on the people that hired you when making that argument. It wasn't bright of her to do.

[CACTUSWENDY]

Hum....the same IBM that told a young Bill Gates that home puters would never be real? lol.....am not impressed.

[InfinityGoddess]

Hum....the same IBM that told a young Bill Gates that home puters would never be real? lol.....am not impressed.

Hewlett-Packard, not IBM. :)

[Monkey]

It was a stupid, irrelevant soft-ball question.

All Fiorina had to say was "yes" and then go into what she felt made Palin an effective executive. It shouldn't have been hard to equate governership with running a large company, and it was actually a great opening for a mini-stump speech.

No one could ever prove that Palin couldn't run a major corporation; it's all conjecture. So there was no reason for Fiorina to give the answer she did instead of taking the opportunity to promote her candidate...unless Fiorina is just really that uncertain of Palin's abilities, which one would hope would not be the case.

So my take is, dumb question, dumber answer.

And yes, when she clarified, it would have helped if she'd just said that she didn't think Obama or Biden could run a major company, either, and left McCain out of it instead of leading with McCain and then mentioning the opponents.

[sassandgroove]

Because that's their job.
then she's not doing it very well.

[VGrossack]

I think it was a great question. It was a question that struck close to CF's heart - she's proud of her own experience - and so caught her off-guard, so she gave a genuine answer. She probably thinks she's more experienced than Palin. And from my understanding, only later, realizing what she had said, did she backpedal to include the other candidates.

[Jimmyboy1]

In contrast, CF's comments proved she would/does not make a good politician.

[Takvah]

Didn't Biden, Hillary and Bill as well as a whole slew of other Dems say that Barack Obama was unqualified to be the POTUS? My how things change, eh? All of a sudden these people are out there saying that he is the man for the job. This whole process is a fucking scam.

[InfinityGoddess]

Didn't Biden, Hillary and Bill as well as a whole slew of other Dems say that Barack Obama was unqualified to be the POTUS? My how things change, eh? All of a sudden these people are out there saying that he is the man for the job. This whole process is a fucking scam.

Scam or not, that's politics.

Thing of it is, when you're running for the nomination of your party, you expect to take some hits from your own. When you are the nominee, they have to rally behind you and forget everything they said in the primaries in public so that they can help you swing at the opposition.

Sounds weird, I know.

[Takvah]

Scam or not, that's politics.

Thing of it is, when you're running for the nomination of your party, you expect to take some hits from your own. When you are the nominee, they have to rally behind you and forget everything they said in the primaries in public so that they can help you swing at the opposition.

Sounds weird, I know.


So then isn't their opinion worthless?

[sassandgroove]

Wouldn't it be better to have someone who respects their oponents? I mean, you can say why you think you'd do a better job without taking shots. Then, when you reach this point, if you weren't chosen, and you support your former opponent, you won't be a hippocrit. Ah- one can dream....

[Shadow_Ferret]

So then isn't their opinion worthless?
Always has been, always will be.

Surprises me that anyone even listens or cares.

[InfinityGoddess]

So then isn't their opinion worthless?

Apparently it is, as Obama's the Democratic nominee for President. :tongue People didn't care that he hadn't been in DC long; he was new and different.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Well... new, anyway.

[Don]

So then isn't their opinion worthless?
It's worth every bit as much as Matt Damon's. :ROFL:

[Captshady]

Scam or not, that's politics.

I thought you supported change?

[Takvah]

Apparently it is, as Obama's the Democratic nominee for President. :tongue People didn't care that he hadn't been in DC long; he was new and different.

Yet Palin is "dangerous" in the number 2 slot.

[InfinityGoddess]

Yet Palin is "dangerous" in the number 2 slot.

Yes, she is, seeing that McCain is 72 with a history of health problems involving a deadly cancer. If he dies in office, she gets to be the number 1. Not really a comforting thought.

[tiny]

How tired and played.

[Takvah]

Yes, she is, seeing that McCain is 72 with a history of health problems involving a deadly cancer. If he dies in office, she gets to be the number 1. Not really a comforting thought.

Oh so better to just have the inexperienced guy at the top right from the start? Come on. McCain isn't likely to die in office, no matter how many voodoo dolls the left makes. At this point I think some folks on the left have a whole slew of voodoo dolls. One for McCain, one for Palin, one for Iraq and one for the economy. It's so sad to see left leaning pundits seeming to take glee in people's financial lives going up in smoke so that Obama can get a small poll bump. That's the God's honest, sickening truth when it comes to this election. Half the country is ROOTING AGAINST US!

[sassandgroove]

Yes, she is, seeing that McCain is 72 with a history of health problems involving a deadly cancer. If he dies in office, she gets to be the number 1. Not really a comforting thought.the thought that a jr. senator who can count his experince in days, not years, may be president isn't comforting either. At least McCain and Palin can count their experiecne in years.

To say, "well McCain might not live out his term," is reaching at straws imo.

it is always possible, regardless of age, or we wouldn't have a contigency plan, would we?

[InfinityGoddess]

Oh so better to just have the inexperienced guy at the top right from the start? Come on. McCain isn't likely to die in office, no matter how many voodoo dolls the left makes. At this point I think some folks on the left have a whole slew of voodoo dolls. One for McCain, one for Palin, one for Iraq and one for the economy. It's so sad to see left leaning pundits seeming to take glee in people's financial lives going up in smoke so that Obama can get a small poll bump. That's the God's honest, sickening truth when it comes to this election. Half the country is ROOTING AGAINST US!

This isn't "voodoo", it's reality. Melanoma is a very serious and deadly disease, and if that doesn't kill him first, his age will. You've noticed that Obama's starting to get a little gray? Imagine what all the stresses of campaigning are doing to McCain. He has to bring the wife along to prop him up. Palin's claim to fame on experience is that she can see Russia and got her first passport in 2007. And she's a darling of the Religious Right besides.

As for Obama, I think he is prepared to be President. How he runs his campaign with the kind of discipline that I've not seen before assures me that this man can be our President, experience notwithstanding.

[Takvah]

As for Obama, I think he is prepared to be President. How he runs his campaign with the kind of discipline that I've not seen before assures me that this man can be our President, experience notwithstanding. The guys who are proclaiming "experience" over him are simply nothing more than Establishment hacks that will only drive our country down a worse road.

If you're impressed with his "campaign" vote for Axelrod.

[robeiae]

Yes, she is, seeing that McCain is 72 with a history of health problems involving a deadly cancer. If he dies in office, she gets to be the number 1. Not really a comforting thought.
Far more comforting than the thought of Biden being President--to me, anyway.

Future Headline: President Biden returns from first trip to Pakistan, "You know, they didn't even have Slurpees!"

[tiny]

the thought that a jr. senator who can count his experince in days, not years, may be president isn't comforting either. At least McCain and Palin can count their experiecne in years.

To say, "well McCain might not live out his term," is reaching at straws imo.

it is always possible, regardless of age, or we wouldn't have a contigency plan, would we?

I think it would be fun for people to just say "I don't agree with his policies therefore I am not going to vote for him," instead of spending a great deal of time taking about trivial what ifs.

[robeiae]

As for Obama, I think he is prepared to be President. How he runs his campaign with the kind of discipline that I've not seen before assures me that this man can be our President, experience notwithstanding. The guys who are proclaiming "experience" over him are simply nothing more than Establishment hacks that will only drive our country down a worse road.
LOL! The "how he runs his campaign" line is pure talking point material. Come on, you can do better than that!

As to Establishment hacks, I agree re McCain. What is Biden, btw?

[Takvah]

I think it would be fun for people to just say "I don't agree with his policies therefore I am not going to vote for him," instead of spending a great deal of time taking about trivial what ifs.

So true... they need to have John on death's door and dying in office or their man isn't fit to carry McCain's jockstrap.

[sassandgroove]

So you know when McCain is going to die? Just like you 'know' what OBama or Gore would have done on 9/11? Do you have a crystal ball or something?

People live into their 90's and even 100's these days. that is just something you can't know.

As for Obama, I think he is prepared to be President. How he runs his campaign with the kind of discipline that I've not seen before assures me that this man can be our President, experience notwithstanding. The guys who are proclaiming "experience" over him are simply nothing more than Establishment hacks that will only drive our country down a worse road.You mean like when he knowingly mis-quotes someone to spread lies about his opponents? Yeah, that's discipline.

http://mainstreetamerica.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/new-spanish-obama-ad-misquotes-rush-limbaugh-shut-your-mouth-or-get-out/

[InfinityGoddess]

LOL! The "how he runs his campaign" line is pure talking point material. Come on, you can do better than that!

1) The whole "drama" surrounding his pick for VP by which he was able to control when the message got out.

2) His massive voter registration drives and efforts to protect people's right to vote.

3) There has been very little drama within his campaign. Anyone causing some problems were immediately addressed.

4) While other liberals were begging him to punch and punch hard, he still managed to stay above the fray and stick to his positive messaging.

5) He beat the Clinton machine and their mean-spirited attacks on him.

As to Establishment hacks, I agree re McCain. What is Biden, btw?

I have my iffyness with Biden. I see his foreign policy creds, his stance on women's issues regarding violence committed against them, and his brutish attack dog nature against McCain to be a plus, however.

[InfinityGoddess]

You mean like when he knowingly mis-quotes someone to spread lies about his opponents? Yeah, that's discipline.

http://mainstreetamerica.wordpress.com/2008/09/18/new-spanish-obama-ad-misquotes-rush-limbaugh-shut-your-mouth-or-get-out/

Oh, yes...Rush Limbaugh. Somehow I don't think that's a lie.

[Shadow_Ferret]

As for Obama, I think he is prepared to be President.
Where I come from the ability to take two very similar candidates and express the same quality as a virtue in one and a disability in another is usually filed under "Partisan Hypocricy."

[robeiae]

1) The whole "drama" surrounding his pick for VP by which he was able to control when the message got out.

2) His massive voter registration drives and efforts to protect people's right to vote.

3) There has been very little drama within his campaign. Anyone causing some problems were immediately addressed.

4) While other liberals were begging him to punch and punch hard, he still managed to stay above the fray and stick to his positive messaging.

5) He beat the Clinton machine and their mean-spirited attacks on him.

Yeah, Takvah already gave the answer, here.

Look, the idea that "running the campaign" creates the experience he lacks is an awful, awful argument to make. Essentially, it means that anyone who is successful in a political campaign is automatically experienced enough for the job. That's just dense.

The argument was cooked up by dem hacks to defend the "executive experience" attack from Palin. But it was weak.

And I think Obama has the necessary qualifications to be President. He doesn't need phony addendums to justify his candidacy. Such things make him look weak, imo. Don't fall into the trap: Obama can lead. That was obvious on day one. That's all that needs to be said, imo.

[InfinityGoddess]

Where I come from the ability to take two very similar candidates and express the same quality as a virtue in one and a disability in another is usually filed under "Partisan Hypocricy."

It's not exactly "partisan" when I'm not really a member of either party.

Besides that, on the experience scale, Obama can legitimately claim more experience than Palin. He's been in more places in the world than she has, and he's been on the national scene for a bit, even if it was only two years.

[InfinityGoddess]

Look, the idea that "running the campaign" creates the experience he lacks is an awful, awful argument to make. Essentially, it means that anyone who is successful in a political campaign is automatically experienced enough for the job. That's just dense.


David Bender doesn't seem to think so. It's not that awful of an argument to make when you consider that Obama knows how to find all the right people to work his staff. Makes you think about who he'd have in his cabinet.

[tiny]

It's not exactly "partisan" when I'm not really a member of either party.

Besides that, on the experience scale, Obama can legitimately claim more experience than Palin. He's been in more places in the world than she has, and he's been on the national scene for a bit, even if it was only two years.


And yet he's running against McCain. How strange.

[Captshady]

It's not exactly "partisan" when I'm not really a member of either party.

Besides that, on the experience scale, Obama can legitimately claim more experience than Palin. He's been in more places in the world than she has, and he's been on the national scene for a bit, even if it was only two years.

That's a serrrrrrrrrious stretch. Additionally, Obama's not running against Palin.

[sassandgroove]

Oh, yes...Rush Limbaugh. Somehow I don't think that's a lie.
Did you even bother to read the link? You reject it out of hand because it is Rush. Yeah, your're fair and balanced. I didn't even link to LImbaugh, I linked to a guy who doesn't much like Limbaugh. Limbaugh was comparing Mexican immigration laws to the U.S.'s, and that comment was a summation of the Mexican attitude towards immigrants to Mexico, verses how Mexican immigrants to the US get treated. It is not Limbaugh's sentiment. Also, the ad tries to link Limbaugh to McCain even though Rush as never supported McCain and is openly critical of him. SO yes, It is a lie, and lieing to the public to gain the advantage is an insult to the public's intelligence. It is a spanish language ad, I bet Obama thought it would ramain under the radar. But it didn't. And he forgets that a great number of hispanics are rather conservative. You can point fingers at McCain and his ads, but they are at least true even if they are exaggerated. Obama has ads like this one and ones taking stabs at McCains age, as though that were relevant.

[InfinityGoddess]

That's a serrrrrrrrrious stretch. Additionally, Obama's not running against Palin.

He's with Biden running against both McCain and Palin. So in a way, he is.

[Takvah]

1) The whole "drama" surrounding his pick for VP by which he was able to control when the message got out.


According to AP:

Obama's campaign arranged a debut for the newly minted ticket on Saturday outside the Old State Capitol in Springfield, Ill.

Obama's decision leaked to the media several hours before his aides planned to send a text message announcing the running mate, negating a promise that people who turned over their phone numbers would be the first to know who Obama had chosen. The campaign scrambled to send the text message after the leak, sending phones buzzing at the inconvenient time of just after 3 a.m. on the East Coast.



2) His massive voter registration drives and efforts to protect people's right to vote.

According to Marc Ambinder, this was a trojan horse effort not unlike tactics used by Bush in 2004...

"The Vote For Change program will lay the foundation for Obama's general election get-out-the-vote efforts. Obama aides won't say much more, but I gather that the campaign is constructing an incredibly elaborate online interface to allow its more than a million donors and volunteers to directly persuade their neighbors through a variety of media. Names gathered from the voter registration effort will be merged with names gathered through Obama's primary efforts and the names off of the Democratic Party's integrated voter file as well as lists purchased from outside vendors."



3) There has been very little drama within his campaign. Anyone causing some problems were immediately addressed.

Like Wright was immediately handled? Rezko? Ayers? Come on.

4) While other liberals were begging him to punch and punch hard, he still managed to stay above the fray and stick to his positive messaging.

More negative ads than McCain, the percentages were released yesterday or today. Smearing Rush Limbaugh (a douchebag no doubt) to pander to Mexicans... uh huh... above it all.

5) He beat the Clinton machine and their mean-spirited attacks on him.

Hmmm... noble. Making Bill Clinton into a racist to do it, was very classy.


I have my iffyness with Biden. I see his foreign policy creds, his stance on women's issues regarding violence committed against them, and his brutish attack dog nature against McCain to be a plus, however.

Yeah, forget about even trying to vet a woman that got 18 million votes... let's go with the guy that got 9000. Were there no other qualified women that wouldn't have appeared STRONGER than this candidate?

If these are actually your reasons, they're pretty flimsy.

[InfinityGoddess]

Did you even bother to read the link? You reject it out of hand because it is Rush. Yeah, your're fair and balanced. I didn't even link to LImbaugh, I linked to a guy who doesn't much like Limbaugh. Limbaugh was comparing Mexican immigration laws to the U.S.'s, and that comment was a summation of the Mexican attitude towards immigrants. It is not Limbaugh's sentiment. Also, the ad tries to link Limbaugh to McCain even though Rush as never supported McCain and is openly critical of him. SO yes, It is a lie, and lieing to the public to gain the advantage is an insult to the public's intelligence. It is a spanish language ad, I bet Obama thought it would ramain under the radar. But it didn't. And he forgets that a great number of hispanics are rather conservative. You can point fingers at McCain and his ads, but they are at least true even if they are exaggerated. Obama has ads like this one and ones taking stabs at McCains age, as though that were relevant.


Limbaugh is a known racist. I don't put it past him to make disparaging comments about anyone who isn't pasty white.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Besides that, on the experience scale, Obama can legitimately claim more experience than Palin. He's been in more places in the world than she has, and he's been on the national scene for a bit, even if it was only two years.
Just being someplace doesn't constitute "experience." Hell, as a Navy man I've been to more places than either one of them. That doesn't equate to Presidential experience and I laugh at the implication that it somehow confers it upon Obama.

[sassandgroove]

David Bender doesn't seem to think so. It's not that awful of an argument to make when you consider that Obama knows how to find all the right people to work his staff. Makes you think about who he'd have in his cabinet.
Who is David Bender and why do I care what he thinks?

[robeiae]

David Bender doesn't seem to think so. :ROFL:So what? I'd say the same thing to him that I am to you. It's awful. AWFUL.

It's not that awful of an argument to make when you consider that Obama knows how to find all the right people to work his staff. Makes you think about who he'd have in his cabinet.
1) Axelrod is running the campaign, not Obama.
2) A campaign staff is hardly a Cabinet.
3) Are you forgetting Che-lady?
4) One of Obama's top economic advisors is none other than Franklin Raines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_Raines). Boy, that makes me think...

Look, why even go down this road? I don't get it. Anyone that thinks Obama doesn't have enough experience is not gonna be swayed by this nonsense. Anyone else--like you and me--that thinks Obama is qualified to be President doesn't need it.

It's talking point garbage and your citation of Bender proves it.

[cethklein]

And I think Obama has the necessary qualifications to be President. He doesn't need phony addendums to justify his candidacy. Such things make him look weak, imo. Don't fall into the trap: Obama can lead. That was obvious on day one. That's all that needs to be said, imo.

No less dense than the idea that anyone who has "experience" ill make a good president. Our current president had "executive experience" how did that turn out for you? His father had even more experience/ How did that work out for you? This whole experience argument is laughable at best. Adolf Hitler had experience leading the Nazi party. ignoring the fact that he was vile, he was also an abysmal leader.

As for McCain's experience, I'm still waiting for someone to show me what he has that would relate to running the country. Or do you think any long-time senator would make a great president. Strom Thurmond maybe? Again the experience argument is ridiculous and completely unfounded. It's an excuse and nothing more.

I keep hearing people tout Palin's "executive experience" these same people then claim Biden is more experienced than Obama and thus should be on the top of the ticket. Do said people also think Palin should be on top of the ticket? after all, she's got more "executive experience".

Again, the experience argument is a straw man and a weak one at that. No one is ready to be president "on day one". Vote based on who you think will do best for the country and not weak stupid gimmicks like experience, age, race, gender, or anything else. Presidents have throngs of people helping them. They don't do everything on their own.

This whole election cycle has been one big pile-up of half-wits and partisan hacks bitching about the other candidate while using fake, weak excuses to justify their own. I'll be glad when it's over. Get some goddamn common sense people. Vote for who you think has the best policies. THAT is what matters.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Limbaugh is a known racist. I don't put it past him to make disparaging comments about anyone who isn't pasty white.
"Known" by whom? Can I get a link to this "knowing?" I don't listen to Limbo but neither have I heard him declared a racist. Don't racists usually LOSE their jobs? Or get called out on the carpet for it, like I'mAnAss in the Morning was?

[Captshady]

According to AP:

Obama's campaign arranged a debut for the newly minted ticket on Saturday outside the Old State Capitol in Springfield, Ill.

Obama's decision leaked to the media several hours before his aides planned to send a text message announcing the running mate, negating a promise that people who turned over their phone numbers would be the first to know who Obama had chosen. The campaign scrambled to send the text message after the leak, sending phones buzzing at the inconvenient time of just after 3 a.m. on the East Coast.




According to Marc Ambinder, this was a trojan horse effort not unlike tactics used by Bush in 2004...

"The Vote For Change program will lay the foundation for Obama's general election get-out-the-vote efforts. Obama aides won't say much more, but I gather that the campaign is constructing an incredibly elaborate online interface to allow its more than a million donors and volunteers to directly persuade their neighbors through a variety of media. Names gathered from the voter registration effort will be merged with names gathered through Obama's primary efforts and the names off of the Democratic Party's integrated voter file as well as lists purchased from outside vendors."



Like Wright was immediately handled? Rezko? Ayers? Come on.

More negative ads than McCain, the percentages were released yesterday or today. Smearing Rush Limbaugh (a douchebag no doubt) to pander to Mexicans... uh huh... above it all.

Hmmm... noble. Making Bill Clinton into a racist to do it, was very classy.



Yeah, forget about even trying to vet a woman that got 18 million votes... let's go with the guy that got 9000. Were there no other qualified women that wouldn't have appeared STRONGER than this candidate?

If these are actually your reasons, they're pretty flimsy.

Yet Obama's all about "change" ... yeah.

[InfinityGoddess]

Like Wright was immediately handled? Rezko? Ayers? Come on.

They are non-issues and have been proven as such.

More negative ads than McCain, the percentages were released yesterday or today. Smearing Rush Limbaugh (a douchebag no doubt) to pander to Mexicans... uh huh... above it all.

Pointing out McCain's policy deficiencies are not "negative", it's truth. And Limbaugh is a racist.

Hmmm... noble. Making Bill Clinton into a racist to do it, was very classy.

Bill Clinton tripped up on his own. That was not Obama's doing.



Yeah, forget about even trying to vet a woman that got 18 million votes... let's go with the guy that got 9000. Were there no other qualified women that wouldn't have appeared STRONGER than this candidate?


As Palin proves, being a woman does not mean the same as being a woman's advocate. Biden wrote the Violence Against Women Act, which is a rather impressive mark on his resume.

[sassandgroove]

Limbaugh is a known racist. I don't put it past him to make disparaging comments about anyone who isn't pasty white.
No he is not. And you don't have any proof to back that up because you've told me before you havne't listened to him. You've heard comments out of context. So you may be of the misguided opinion that he is, but you cannot state that as fact, especially since it is not true.

[robeiae]

Limbaugh is a known racist.
Prove it.

Imo, that's improper. You can say you "think" he's a racist, or that he's said things you think are racist, etc. But you can't state he's a "known racist," unless you can back it up 100%. That kind of verbiage is an open invitation to a flame war and goes too far, imo.

[cethklein]

Yeah, forget about even trying to vet a woman that got 18 million votes... let's go with the guy that got 9000. Were there no other qualified women that wouldn't have appeared STRONGER than this candidate?

So why didn't your boy McCain pick Romney or Huckabee? They got a few more votes than Palin did.

[sassandgroove]

Limbaugh is a known racist. I don't put it past him to make disparaging comments about anyone who isn't pasty white.
So I take it you still haven't bothered to read the link. You know why you think Obama is great? Becuase you have blinders on.

When I hear something about McCain or Palin, even from YOU (gasp) I look into it to find out if it is true, because I know that no one is perfect, even if I want to vote for them. but when someone disagrees with you, well, they're racist or extreme right, or just don't understand, or are biased. I also noticed that you think anyone you agree with is moderate. Let me tell you something, you are not moderate and the people you tend to like are very far to the left.

[robeiae]

No less dense than the idea that anyone who has "experience" ill make a good president. Our current president had "executive experience" how did that turn out for you? His father had even more experience/ How did that work out for you? This whole experience argument is laughable at best. Adolf Hitler had experience leading the Nazi party. ignoring the fact that he was vile, he was also an abysmal leader.Who are you talking to? Me?

As for McCain's experience, I'm still waiting for someone to show me what he has that would relate to running the country. Or do you think any long-time senator would make a great president. Strom Thurmond maybe? Again the experience argument is ridiculous and completely unfounded. It's an excuse and nothing more.Yeah, that's what I've been saying.


Again, the experience argument is a straw man and a weak one at that. Right.

[InfinityGoddess]

"Known" by whom? Can I get a link to this "knowing?" I don't listen to Limbo but neither have I heard him declared a racist. Don't racists usually LOSE their jobs? Or get called out on the carpet for it, like I'mAnAss in the Morning was?

You would think.

As far as him being a racist:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200808200009
http://mediamatters.org/items/200806020006
http://mediamatters.org/items/200803210012
http://mediamatters.org/items/200603280009

And that's just a very small sample

[cethklein]

Who are you talking to? Me?

Yeah, that's what I've been saying.


Right.

Not really. I was speaking in general terms not really directly to you. Just using your post as the basis.

[sassandgroove]

They are non-issues and have been proven as such.
To whom? you? To me they are still very relevant issues.



Pointing out McCain's policy deficiencies are not "negative", it's truth. And Limbaugh is a racist.
see above. You can say you don't like him but you do not know that nor do you have any proof. NOr is it relevant to the discussion. Obama knowingly mis-quoted him to spread lies. That is the relevant issue at hand.





As Palin proves, being a woman does not mean the same as being a woman's advocate. Biden wrote the Violence Against Women Act, which is a rather impressive mark on his resume.By your definition. By my definition she's great. What do you want her to do? The article YOU posted stated she increased funding to help against domestic violence. What else do you want? Do you want her to place an armed guard at every living abode where a female resides? Then will you be happy?

[Shadow_Ferret]

Again, the experience argument is a straw man and a weak one at that. No one is ready to be president "on day one". Vote based on who you think will do best for the country and not weak stupid gimmicks like experience, age, race, gender, or anything else. Presidents have throngs of people helping them. They don't do everything on their own.

So... if we throw out experience and "anything else," what are we left with? Hair styles? Perfect teeth? Sound bites? Isn't that what we criticize everyone for voting on anyway?

To me experience is not a straw man, it's a legitimate reason. In the case of senators or congressmen, the person hopefully has learned how to reach across the aisle and work with the other side. They've sponsored bills or worked as a team in committee. They've come to understand how the inner workings of governmen operate. In the case of Governor's they presided over a state, they've BEEN Presidents in miniature.

So to me, experience IS important.

[sassandgroove]

IG- as I said before, your little media matters source is taking him out of context. And yes I read your links, a courtesy I don't think you extended to me.

[InfinityGoddess]

So I take it you still haven't bothered to read the link. You know why you think Obama is great? Becuase you have blinders on.

No, I like him because I like what he brings to the table and his policy issues. Not because I have "blinders" on.

but when someone disagrees with you, well, they're racist or extreme right, or just don't understand, or are biased.

No, I call people out who are genuine, dye-in-the-wool bigots, not because they simply disagree with me. Not my fault that Rush Limbaugh is one. He became that on his own.

I also noticed that you think anyone you agree with is moderate. Let me tell you something, you are not moderate and the people you tend to like are very far to the left.

:ROFL:

I never once stated that I was a moderate. I am a true, blue, dye-in-the-wool feminist liberal populist. And get this; Obama is slightly to the right of me!

Furthermore, I have agreed with people who have a differing opinion or belief on a few occasions. So I really don't have the blinders that you appear to claim that I have.



By your definition. By my definition she's great. What do you want her to do? The article YOU posted stated she increased funding to help against domestic violence. What else do you want? Do you want her to place an armed guard at every living abode where a female resides? Then will you be happy?

Actually, the second page of that ABC article said that she halted funding. That's not "increasing".

And I'm not suggesting anything of the kind. I'm suggesting that she allow the victims to receive the care they need and get serious on prosecuting the perps.

[Takvah]

So why didn't your boy McCain pick Romney or Huckabee? They got a few more votes than Palin did.

I make no bones about it... he picked a popular FEMALE Republican with executive experience to give the women of this nation a voice. Where Obama was all about squashing that dream because of his own EGO, McCain picked it up and will be mentoring this woman through her transition to the national stage... the same way Reagan did with him back in the day.

Don't hate McCain for giving the lady a shot. He's running the ticket, HE DOESN'T NEED TO PROP UP HIS RESUME.

[robeiae]

So... if we throw out experience and "anything else," what are we left with? Hair styles? Perfect teeth? Sound bites? Isn't that what we criticize everyone for voting on anyway?

To me experience is not a straw man, it's a legitimate reason. In the case of senators or congressmen, the person hopefully has learned how to reach across the aisle and work with the other side. They've sponsored bills or worked as a team in committee. They've come to understand how the inner workings of government operate. In the case of Governor's they presided over a state, they've BEEN Presidents in miniature.

So to me, experience IS important.
I think the point is that it is a strawman to say "this guy has been a Senator longer, so he's more experienced, so he's more fit to be President." That's not sound reasoning, unless you believe being President is about process, nothing more.

Sure, experience is a valid consideration. But having "more" isn't automatically a positive. After all, none of them have experience AS the President. And that would be the only absolutely applicable kind.

[rugcat]

No he is not. And you don't have any proof to back that up because you've told me before you havne't listened to him. You've heard comments out of context. So you may be of the misguided opinion that he is, but you cannot state that as fact, especially since it is not true.No one can ever "prove" someone is a racist, unless the person in question explicitly makes a statement like, "Blacks are inferior to whites." With people in the national spotlight, such things just aren't ever said.

And I think there's very little racism of that sort anyway. It's a lot more subtle, and totally open to interpretation. Most people I would view as racist certainly don't think of themselves that way. For example, I think Pat Buchanan has more than a tinge of racism in his views, likewise Lou Dobbs. That's just my opinion; both of them would be outraged at anyone suggesting such a thing.

Much as despise Limbaugh, I don't see him as a racist. Nor are Bush and the right wing neocons -- that's one thing you really can't lay at their feet. They're more than happy to accept anyone into the fold who accepts their views, regardless of race.

[cethklein]

So... if we throw out experience and "anything else," what are we left with? Hair styles? Perfect teeth? Sound bites? Isn't that what we criticize everyone for voting on anyway?

To me experience is not a straw man, it's a legitimate reason. In the case of senators or congressmen, the person hopefully has learned how to reach across the aisle and work with the other side. They've sponsored bills or worked as a team in committee. They've come to understand how the inner workings of governmen operate. In the case of Governor's they presided over a state, they've BEEN Presidents in miniature.

So to me, experience IS important.

Experience isn't a negative and it's definitely a plus. no sane person could deny that. But I hardly think it's a sole factor to qualify one to be president. Again I'll cite Strom Thurmond. does anyone other than Trent Lott think he'd have made a great president? Experience is a good thing but I think vision trumps it. You can get advisor's to make up for lack of experience in any area. It's a bit harder to find people to impart vision.

[Captshady]

You would think.

As far as him being a racist:

http://mediamatters.org/items/200808200009
http://mediamatters.org/items/200806020006
http://mediamatters.org/items/200803210012
http://mediamatters.org/items/200603280009

And that's just a very small sample

In September 2007, Media Matters kicked off what became known as the "phony soldiers controversy" by publicizing remarks made by conservative talk radio host Rush Limbaugh under the headlined "Limbaugh: Service members who support U.S. withdrawal are 'phony soldiers'". Media Matters' report, which contained a partial transcript of Limbaugh's September 26 show, alleged that he was referring to Iraq war veterans opposed to the war when he used the phrase "phony soldiers" on that broadcast. The national media quickly picked up the story, and by early October, Limbaugh's comment and its possible meaning was being debated on the floor of the House of Representatives. Limbaugh, conservative pundits, and many Republican congressmen contended that the remark was being taken out of context, and he had actually been referring to Jesse MacBeth, a man claiming be to a decorated veteran, but who had never actually served in the war. John Gibson, while a commentator at Fox News, criticized Media Matters' reporting of Limbaugh, and the conservative National Review accused Media Matters of creating a "phony controversy" and trying to "manufacture outrage" regarding the remark. The National Review suggested that Media Matters may have intended to present a "completely false account of what happened". Media Matters argued that its item was accurate and included context and that Limbaugh and his defenders sought to remove context to cast his remarks in a more favorable light. Lampooning O'Reilly, Gibson, and other conservatives who rallied behind Limbaugh, Stephen Colbert satirically blamed Media Matters for the controversy. "By posting [Limbaugh's remarks] on the Internet," Colbert said, "the general public [heard] words that were meant for people who already agree with us. Hey, Media Matters, you want to end offensive speech? Then stop recording it for people who would be offended."
Within a week of when Media Matters broke the story, forty-one US senators signed a letter to Clear Channel Communications, the company that broadcasts The Rush Limbaugh Show, calling for the company to "publicly repudiate these comments and ask Mr. Limbaugh to apologize" for the remarks. Limbaugh refused. The letter ultimately sold on eBay for $2.1 million dollars, the most charity money on eBay up to that date.



You might as well post dailykos links.

[robeiae]

I am a true, blue, dye-in-the-wool feminist liberal populist.
Yeah. That is an ideology.

Everyone has one, IG.

[cethklein]

I make no bones about it... he picked a popular FEMALE Republican with executive experience to give the women of this nation a voice. Where Obama was all about squashing that dream because of his own EGO, McCain picked it up and will be mentoring this woman through her transition to the national stage... the same way Reagan did with him back in the day.

Don't hate McCain for giving the lady a shot. He's running the ticket, HE DOESN'T NEED TO PROP UP HIS RESUME.

No one "hates" McCain. That's a childish and pathetic argument at best. It's nothing but baiting. so I'm not even going to waste time countering it.

And so you think Palin represents all women in this country? Does that mean McCain, Obama, and Biden represent all men? seriously that's as weak an argument as I've ever heard.

As for Obama squashing the dream, I didn't think anyone bought into that tripe propaganda. I clearly was wrong.

[InfinityGoddess]

Yeah. That is an ideology.

Everyone has one, IG.

No, actually, it isn't.

IG- as I said before, your little media matters source is taking him out of context. And yes I read your links, a courtesy I don't think you extended to me.

And what would be IN context, I wonder?

Never mind, I shutter to think of it.

[Shadow_Ferret]

Experience isn't a negative and it's definitely a plus. no sane person could deny that. But I hardly think it's a sole factor to qualify one to be president. Again I'll cite Strom Thurmond. does anyone other than Trent Lott think he'd have made a great president? Experience is a good thing but I think vision trumps it. You can get advisor's to make up for lack of experience in any area. It's a bit harder to find people to impart vision.
I dont think anyone said it was the sole factor. It's one factor. In this case, experience vs. no experience.

Vision is a rather nebulous term, don't you think? How does one factor "vision?"

[cethklein]

I dont think anyone said it was the sole factor. It's one factor. In this case, experience vs. no experience.

Vision is a rather nebulous term, don't you think? How does one factor "vision?"

Of course it's nebulous. I have no illusions that it's concrete. I think it's something one has to just portray. I don't think Obama has done the best job of doing this, mind you. But he's done it more than McCain. That's my biggest gripe with McCain as far as policies go. He just doesn't seem to take economic issues very seriously. He doesn't seem to "get it". hell maybe he could fix the economy but he can't until he accepts that it's bad. One day he says it's "strong" and only admits it's not when people lash out against him.

to me his experience makes this even worse. For all the time he's spent in Washington, you'd think he'd see what's going on. He's lived through bad times. He of all people should be able to see the problems we're having.

[InfinityGoddess]

Much as despise Limbaugh, I don't see him as a racist. Nor are Bush and the right wing neocons -- that's one thing you really can't lay at their feet. They're more than happy to accept anyone into the fold who accepts their views, regardless of race.

I would have to disagree here.

They may accept anyone into their fold who agrees with them, but usually that means they like anyone who supports policies that keeps the "others" down. So, taken in that context, it doesn't make Limbaugh any less of a bigot.

[robeiae]

Much as despise Limbaugh, I don't see him as a racist. Nor are Bush and the right wing neocons -- that's one thing you really can't lay at their feet. They're more than happy to accept anyone into the fold who accepts their views, regardless of race.
Yeah, that's a pretty good test.

Not many blacks in the KKK, nor many openly Jewish people in the Nazi Party of early twentieth century Germany.


As a side note, one of Limbaugh frequent guest hosts is Walter Williams. And Limbaugh is friends with Thomas Sowell (as is Williams).

[Jimmyboy1]

Rush doesn't have a racist bone in his body. No way.

The term "populist" has been widely used here in a completely inaccurate manner.

And.... last but not least... Obama's hair IS getting white. It was jet black when he went to Hawaii, graying when he returned. It's called dye. (Gray = Experience) Bill Clinton would dye his hair different colors for different crowds.

[InfinityGoddess]

Rush doesn't have a racist bone in his body. No way.

:ROFL:Yeah. "Obama the Magic Negro" doesn't spring to mind at all? Really?


And.... last but not least... Obama's hair IS getting white. It was jet black when he went to Hawaii, graying when he returned. It's called dye. (Gray = Experience) Bill Clinton would dye his hair different colors for different crowds.

Duuuude. I'm 30 and I have gray hairs. And I can assure you it has nothing to do with dyes. Some people get it from stress.

[Takvah]

No one "hates" McCain. That's a childish and pathetic argument at best. It's nothing but baiting. so I'm not even going to waste time countering it.

And so you think Palin represents all women in this country? Does that mean McCain, Obama, and Biden represent all men? seriously that's as weak an argument as I've ever heard.

As for Obama squashing the dream, I didn't think anyone bought into that tripe propaganda. I clearly was wrong.

A typically personal and over the top response.

Nobody hates McCain? I'm going to beg to differ on that.

Yes I think that Palin connects with a great many women in this country and the polls where it concerns women voters seem to be bearing that out. I said she gave women of this nation a voice. Democrats split the vote between Clinton and Obama, but in the end the experienced and qualified warhorse was ditched for the shiny new kid. I think a great many women resent that. It happens in the workplace all the time. I have seen many women deserving of a position passed over in just the same way... and to watch "progressives" do it... was surprising to say the least.

[sassandgroove]

No, actually, it isn't.



And what would be IN context, I wonder?

Never mind, I shutter to think of it.
I believe that would be shudder, and don't be such a drama queen. If you don't want to bother with facts I am done with you.

:ROFL:Yeah. "Obama the Magic Negro" doesn't spring to mind at all? Really?

He was making fun of the LA times saying Obama isn't authentic enough. As in not black enough. whatever. You aren't interested in the truth. Keep your blinders on you'll be happier that way.

[InfinityGoddess]

He was making fun of the LA times saying Obama isn't authentic enough. As in not black enough. whatever. You aren't interested in the truth. Keep your blinders on you'll be happier that way.

I believe in truth. I just don't believe Rush represents that.

Furthermore, much what he's said of Obama has indeed been a jab at his race. He's also jabbed at Hillary for her gender, and has described gay rights as the Homosexual Agenda. Show me how that isn't bigoted.

[Monkey]

According to the latest polls (firstread.com), Obama is leading amongst women. It's no surprise to me; I'm voting Obama, as is my mother, my mother-in-law, and my grandmothers on both sides.

It wasn't just "old work horse" against "shiny new kid". There were plenty of other differences between them - differences OTHER than skin color or gender. I'm sure there were some people who couldn't see past that...but I assure you there were many who were.

[Captshady]

I believe in truth. I just don't believe Rush represents that.

Furthermore, much what he's said of Obama has indeed been a jab at his race. He's also jabbed at Hillary for her gender, and has described gay rights as the Homosexual Agenda. Show me how that isn't bigoted.

There's a big damned difference between racist and bigoted. I don't listen to his show, so I wouldn't know. But I do know that people jump to put the racist tag on someone for merely bringing up race. That's a load in and of itself.

[InfinityGoddess]

There's a big damned difference between racist and bigoted. I don't listen to his show, so I wouldn't know. But I do know that people jump to put the racist tag on someone for merely bringing up race. That's a load in and of itself.

Racism means you're bigoted against people who aren't of your own skin color, so it's a bigotry in of itself. So no real difference there to be had.

I don't make it a habit to "tag" someone as a bigot generally. First time, usually in ignorance, and I can understand. But when the behavior is repeated, then that's where I'm not so hesitant. As he has repeated his bigoted behavior on-air time and again, I have no hesitation in calling Limbaugh for what he is; a mean-spirited bigoted trogolodyte.

ETA: Damn, I love it when I'm right (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/View_host_Hasselbeck_Rush_Limbaugh_blocks_0307.htm l).

[Captshady]

Racism means hate, period.

[Shadow_Ferret]

According to the latest polls (firstread.com), Obama is leading amongst women. It's no surprise to me; I'm voting Obama, as is my mother, my mother-in-law, and my grandmothers on both sides.

And my wife is voting McCain. My mother is voting McCain. And my MIL is voting McCain. My SIL is voting McCain. All my grandmothers are dead, but I bet they'd vote for McCain, too. Stalemate. You can't predict national outcomes on your own personal experience.

[InfinityGoddess]

Racism means hate, period.

So does bigotry. No difference there.

[Shadow_Ferret]

What does prejudice mean?

Personally, I don't think we can use a blanket assessment of hate when discussing these issues. That completely dismisses the fact that in many cases its based on ignorance, or passed down familial knowledge, or what have you.

Prejudging is often an easy way to pigeonhole people, make snap judgements right or wrong. It's a way to categorize, not hate.

To just apply the term hate without taking the time to understand where the prejudice comes from is as bigoted a stance as any.

Everyone is an individual and deserves to be treated that way.

[sassandgroove]

SOme people don't understand the meaning of 'Context' either.

[robeiae]

Racism means you're bigoted against people who aren't of your own skin color, so it's a bigotry in of itself. So no real difference there to be had.No. Wrong.

Racism is a belief that one race is superior to other races. Bigotry is a preference for one race over another. Very different. It's a major error to conflate the two.

ETA: Damn, I love it when I'm right (http://www.rawstory.com/news/2008/View_host_Hasselbeck_Rush_Limbaugh_blocks_0307.htm l).
You're not right. And your ignorance here is bordering on the offensive, imo.

You've cited a bunch of MediaMatters stuff as "evidence" for your claim, even though MediaMatters admits that it's goal is to undermine conservative voices.

You've brought nothing but opinions, mostly from questionable sources.

You're free to hate, despise, and dislike Limbaugh to your heart's content. You're free to offer your opinion on him. But I don't think you should be claiming he is a "well known racist" or anything of that nature without real, honest-to-goodness, empirical PROOF that such is the case.

Have you ever met Limbaugh? Because at least then, your opinion would be based on SOMETHING, other than the opinions of other people with agendas.

[sassandgroove]

You're not right. And your ignorance here is bordering on the offensive, imo.imo, she crossed that border a LONG time ago.

[tiny]

SOme people don't understand the meaning of 'Context' either.

Oh I think they understand context perfectly, but choose to disregard it so points can be made to be in the "right". You're beating your head against a brick wall.

Personally, I think both choices suck eggs.

[robeiae]

You're prejudiced against egg-suckers, TT.

[sassandgroove]

certian people are also not answering direct questions and deflecting by changing the subject.

[Jimmyboy1]

Anyone who doesn't know by now that the magic negroe thing was taken from the LA Times has their head in the sand, big time. (a little Dick Cheney there for ya.) I used to argue (before I realized it was pointless) with my mil about Rush. She despised him. When I found out she had never once listened, I walked away from that religious experience.

And yes, I am well aware of the fact that people's hair can get gray. Mine did. Obama's got frosted after wave surfing. Funny, I wasn't aware wave surfing was that tortuous. Rush even had befores and afters on his site.

Furthermore, his Hawaii trip occurred before Sarah's entry. He had no stressers then whatsoever. Then Sarah happened, McCain started running Ayers ads, and Barry started to cry.

The color is as fake as the changehope mantra.

[tiny]

You're prejudiced against egg-suckers, TT.

I am not. How dare you make that assessment!! :D

[InfinityGoddess]

No. Wrong.

Racism is a belief that one race is superior to other races. Bigotry is a preference for one race over another. Very different. It's a major error to conflate the two.

Bigotry and Racism are both beliefs of hate. The major difference is that bigotry covers a wider range.


You're not right. And your ignorance here is bordering on the offensive, imo.

You've cited a bunch of MediaMatters stuff as "evidence" for your claim, even though MediaMatters admits that it's goal is to undermine conservative voices.

While at the same time posting an article where even a couple of conservatives found Limbaugh to be an offensive bigot.

Media Matters has sound clips of Limbaugh spewing his hate of anyone he doesn't like. Sound clips. In other words, it's coming straight from the horse's mouth. You may not trust the site itself, but it's all there just the same.



You're free to hate, despise, and dislike Limbaugh to your heart's content. You're free to offer your opinion on him. But I don't think you should be claiming he is a "well known racist" or anything of that nature without real, honest-to-goodness, empirical PROOF that such is the case.

Have you ever met Limbaugh? Because at least then, your opinion would be based on SOMETHING, other than the opinions of other people with agendas.

I don't despise him, per se. I just find him to be a sad little man with nothing better to do. Furthermore, racism doesn't have to be overt. Some of them are pretty subtle about it. My opinion is based on what little I have listened to of him and for me, that's enough.

[Monkey]

Ferret,

I wasn't trying to predict national trends based on my own family experience. I was responding to Takvah, who seemed to be implying that 1) Clinton, by virtue of being female, was giving the women in the US their "voice", and 2) people voted for Obama -even though he was less experienced - solely because he was running against a woman.

Being female, I disagree with 1), and as an Obama voter, I disagree with 2). My statement about how women were voting was based on info garnered from FirstRead. My last sentence: "I'm sure there were some people who couldn't see past that...but I assure you there were many who were" was the point of my post and the reason for including my personal observations.

[InfinityGoddess]

I used to argue (before I realized it was pointless) with my mil about Rush. She despised him. When I found out she had never once listened, I walked away from that religious experience.

I've listened to a bit of him, and I find his talk to be disgusting to say the least. Not to mention hypocritical at times. He's all of a sudden defending Sarah Palin now against baseless allegations of sexism, while he was all more than happy to spew misogyny at female Democrats to his heart's content.

And yes, I am well aware of the fact that people's hair can get gray. Mine did. Obama's got frosted after wave surfing. Funny, I wasn't aware wave surfing was that tortuous.

Furthermore, his Hawaii trip occurred before Sarah's entry. He had no stressers then whatsoever. Then Sarah happened, McCain started running Ayers ads, and Barry started to cry.


Campaigning for President; heck BEING President is a stressful job. Dubya wasn't even all that gray when he was in the running back in 2000. Now, eight years later, there's a lot of gray on that head of his. I suppose that's just dye too?

[robeiae]

My opinion is based on what little I have listened to of him and for me, that's enough.Your opinion is your opinion. That's not the issue. You stated something as fact. Further, you stated it in a form that is a kind of fallacy of argument, by definition:

Rush is a well-known racist=Everyone knows Rush is a racist=Every schoolboy knows Rush is a racist

All make the same error. It's called--by David Hackett Fischer--the fallacy of the prevalent proof.

And you haven't come close to proving your assertion, as I've already noted.

[robeiae]

Bigotry and Racism are both beliefs of hate. The major difference is that bigotry covers a wider range.
No. This discussion has been had before:

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=963237&postcount=30
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=963929&postcount=82
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=963989&postcount=88

[InfinityGoddess]

Rush is a well-known racist=Everyone knows Rush is a racist=Every schoolboy knows Rush is a racist

All make the same error. It's called--by David Hackett Fischer--the fallacy of the prevalent proof.

And you haven't come close to proving your assertion, as I've already noted.

He's a bigot. Some people might not think so, but his attitude (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/rush-20080623-dems.mp3) towards what (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20080521-obama.mp3) he deems (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20080401.mp3) "the other" (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20080320-obama.mp3) is rather (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20080124.mp3) spiteful (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20070821-hrc.mp3), hateful (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20070319-obama.mp3), and yes (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20070124-obama.mp3), overall bigoted (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20060307-hc.mp3). However subtle or overt it may be, he's a bigot who's repeat offended over and over again.

[Robert Toy]

SOme people don't understand the meaning of 'Context' either.
Is that when you pull a fast one on a Texan?

[sassandgroove]

You know, this whole "Rush is a racist" tack you are taking, i think, is to deflect from the FACT that Obama has an ad purposefully taking a quote out of context to LIE to spanish speaking Americans. It doesn't have anything to do with weather or not Rush is racist. It has everything to do with Obama disrespecting the public so much he feels he has to lie to get their vote instead of sticking to the facts about his self.

[InfinityGoddess]

You know, this whole "Rush is a racist" tack you are taking, i think, is to deflect from the FACT that Obama has an ad purposefully taking a quote out of context to LIE to spanish speaking Americans. It doesn't have anything to do with weather or not Rush is racist. It has everything to do with Obama disrespecting the public so much he feels he has to lie to get their vote instead of sticking to the facts about his self.

And like I said before, given that it's Rush Limbaugh, I don't believe one iota of his compulsive whining that Obama's ad likely pointed out the truth.

[robeiae]

He's a bigot. Some people might not think so, but his attitude (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/rush-20080623-dems.mp3) towards what (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20080521-obama.mp3) he deems (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20080401.mp3) "the other" (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20080320-obama.mp3) is rather (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20080124.mp3) spiteful (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20070821-hrc.mp3), hateful (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20070319-obama.mp3), and yes (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20070124-obama.mp3), overall bigoted (http://clips.mediamatters.org/static/audio/limbaugh-20060307-hc.mp3). However subtle or overt it may be, he's a bigot who's repeat offended over and over again.
More crappy sound bites from MediaMatters.

I don't want to defend Limbaugh's opinions or language choices, but you called him a "well-known racist." You haven't backed that up. And know you're conflating all that you dislike about him into a single hodge-podge of "bigotry."

[Robert Toy]

IG, if Obama said he wasn't black you would be here on AW defending his whiteness.

*sigh*

[InfinityGoddess]

More crappy sound bites from MediaMatters.

I don't want to defend Limbaugh's opinions or language choices, but you called him a "well-known racist." You haven't backed that up. And know you're conflating all that you dislike about him into a single hodge-podge of "bigotry."

I could be posting all kinds of clips like those from Rush Limbaugh's own site and it wouldn't change anything he said. He's known to be a bigot in many circles, shall we say.

IG, if Obama said he wasn't black you would be here on AW defending his whiteness.

*sigh*

O.o; Oooookay.... Not sure what you mean by that.

[robeiae]

I could be posting all kinds of clips like those from Rush Limbaugh's own site and it wouldn't change anything he said. He's known to be a bigot in many circles, shall we say.

*sigh*

Ted Kennedy is known to be a muderer in many circles.
Obama is also known to be a racist in many circles.
Dick Durbin is known to be a communist in many circles.
Air America is known to be populated by the dumbest people on the planet in many circles.

[Takvah]

Are black people voting for Obama because he is black, racists?

Are white people voting for McCain because he is white, racist?

Discuss.

[tiny]

*sigh*

Ted Kennedy is known to be a murderer in many circles.
Obama is also known to be a racist in many circles.
Dick Durbin is known to be a communist in many circles.
Air America is known to be populated by the dumbest people on the planet in many circles.


Add the cookie and there you go.

[InfinityGoddess]

*sigh*


Except the difference is, Rush proves his bigotry on his own. Whether you interpret his words as bigoted or not is entirely up to the individual listener.

Those others? Not a shred of evidence that is true for some, and somewhat true for others.

[robeiae]

Except the difference is, Rush proves his bigotry on his own. Whether you interpret his words as bigoted or not is entirely up to the individual listener.

Those others? Not a shred of evidence that is true for some, and somewhat true for others.
You admit that you don't listen regularly, so what do you know about it, really? What you know is what someone else has told you or where someone else has led you. That's all.

You're arguing from a postion of weakness. You've now switched out of the racist label--I would guess because you realized there was no way you could maintain that argument--and dropped off in to the very weak bigot label.

You know, everyone is a bigot. It's just a matter of degre. You? You're bigotted against conservative sources of information. You doubt them as a matter of course, while you accept liberal ones as a matter of course. That's a kind of bigotry.

Is Rush a bigot in some sense? No doubt. Is he a bigot in the sense that he "hates" various groups, like blacks, women, gays, etc.? You want to say yes, based on a small sampling and with no first hand knowledge.

Now, I've heard Rush for many, many years. I'm a talk radio junkie. My opinion--fwiw--is that Rush is a bit of a sexist. I've never heard him saying anything that--in context--would indicate he harbors ill will toward any of these other groups, in general.

[Robert Toy]

Are black people voting for Obama because he is black, racists?

Are white people voting for McCain because he is white, racist?

Discuss.
Blacks voting for Obama simply because he is black, are voting to undo the century of injustices - not racists

Whites voting for Obama simply because he is black, are voting to undo the century of injustices - not racists

Whites voting for McCain simply because he is white are racists

Blacks voting for McCain simply because he is white are racists

[Robert Toy]

Larry King Live – Jamal Simmons

On the possible waning of the Palin effect/boost:

“The Republicans are like a bunch of little kids sucking on pixie sticks who where on sugar high during the RNC, but the sugar has worn off.”

[InfinityGoddess]

You admit that you don't listen regularly, so what do you know about it, really? What you know is what someone else has told you or where someone else has led you. That's all.

Enough to form an opinion about it.

You're arguing from a postion of weakness. You've now switched out of the racist label--I would guess because you realized there was no way you could maintain that argument--and dropped off in to the very weak bigot label.

"Bigot" and "Racist" fall into the same category of ignorance and hate of a minority of folks that are different. Rush Limbaugh has hate for more than just people of the non-white category; he's not fond of women and gay people much, either.

You know, everyone is a bigot. It's just a matter of degre. You? You're bigotted against conservative sources of information. You doubt them as a matter of course, while you accept liberal ones as a matter of course. That's a kind of bigotry.

Ummm...no. Bigotry is based on a superiority complex. I do not consider myself to be superior to conservatives. I'm actually quite happy to debate them, and maybe occasionally use their news outlets. I just don't use them as my primary source of news getting, that's all.

Is Rush a bigot in some sense? No doubt. Is he a bigot in the sense that he "hates" various groups, like blacks, women, gays, etc.? You want to say yes, based on a small sampling and with no first hand knowledge.

"Small samplings" are not first-hand? Really? I've just barely stomached through one of those very clips I've linked, and one of the last things out of the man's mouth was a subtle race-baiting comment.

Now, I've heard Rush for many, many years. I'm a talk radio junkie. My opinion--fwiw--is that Rush is a bit of a sexist. I've never heard him saying anything that--in context--would indicate he harbors ill will toward any of these other groups, in general.

Well, that's all well and good, but I've heard the phrase "Homosexual Agenda" out of his mouth at least once or twice, and one of the links I've linked to has Rush making a comment about Obama, coming to a phrase where he said and I quote from a transcript:

It's -- you know, it's just -- it's just we can't hit the girl. I don't care how far feminism's saying, you can't hit the girl, and you can't -- you can't criticize the little black man-child. You just can't do it, 'cause it's just not right. It's not fair. He's such a victim.

That's a racist comment if I ever heard one. So blatantly a racist comment. With a touch of misogyny mixed in there.

[Jimmyboy1]

I disagree.

[Dawno]

Locking until I have a chance to read this whole thread - it looks like things are taking a bad turn here, but if I'm wrong, I'll re-open. Meanwhile, there's the rest of AW waiting for you...maybe ya'll need a little break from P&CE?