When do you consider your MS submission-ready?

[RainbowDragon]

No matter what draft you're on, it seems a beta-reader can still point out things he or she likes and things that can be improved. It's a beta's job, after all, I know.

On my "last" self-induced revision I find I could probably keep revising forever (and be perfectly happy to skip the whole rejection thing, anyway). . .

Which makes me curious how others know when their manuscripts are ready to stop revising and start submitting. Are there tell-tale signs or do you just get sick of the work in progress and move on to the next?

I look forward to a wide variety of responses. Thanks!

[blacbird]

I can point out places in novels by Ernest Hemingway and John Steinbeck that could be improved.

It will never be perfect. And as former Major League pitcher Joaquin Andujar famously said about baseball: "You can sum it up in one word: You never know."

caw

[TTCleveland]

I think the best way to tell if your manuscript is 'done' is when you find that your biggest concern is the placing of commas.

If you have changed the same comma in chapter thirty-two at least twice, it's time to pack it up, you are as good as you're going to get.

Basically, when your edits become trivial.

-Travis

[ORION]

When I give my manuscript to beta readers and they come back with the communication that they couldn't put it down -
I usually wait until then to send a sample to my agent...
But you know it's really hard. When I set a project aside and let it "cool" I can have more clarity when I take another look.
There's a gut reaction that I have when I think it's as good as I can get it...

[narose]

Everything can always be improved upon. It's more a matter of personal likes and dislikes really. Everyone is different, therefore everyone will have different views on what's good and what needs improving. For myself, it's a matter of knowing when to leave well enough alone. If I revise a specific passage umpteen number of times, only to realize it was better the first time around, then I know it's time to leave well enough alone. :D

[ishtar'sgate]

On my "last" self-induced revision I find I could probably keep revising forever (and be perfectly happy to skip the whole rejection thing, anyway). . .

Are there tell-tale signs or do you just get sick of the work in progress and move on to the next?


You got it, right there. When I know I'm procrastinating then it's time to start querying.
Linnea

[Susan Breen]

I begin thinking about another story and other characters. That's when I know I've said all that I can about the story I'm working on. Also, I like to put myself in a position where I have a deadline; that takes some of the control out of my hands.

[ChaosTitan]

As someone mentioned upthread, when the editing becomes trivial. I can tweak and play and rearrange words all day long. The trick is knowing when you're making progress and when you're just playing around. With every book I write, my first drafts get tighter, so less serious editing is required. Now that I'm entering the world of deadlines, my play-around time is that much more limited.

[Sunshine13]

I agree with a lot of what's been said. When editing becomes trivial (or tedious in my case *snicker*)

You eventually have to tell yourself to stop though, especially if you're like me and like having several different beta readers take a look at some or all of your stuff. Because EVERYONE has a different taste. I often found myself pulling my hair out because one reader would say to change something while a different reader liked that particular part. When it comes right down to it, it's your judgment alone that matters the most. I've finally reached a point as a writer where I'm comfortable saying "you know what, I'll keep this because despite so-and-so's opinion, it works for me. And it's worked for others".

But mostly, it's when you finally reach that comfort level with your project. Something can always be worked on in any manuscript. If I let it control me, I'd be like Stanley Kubric was and never finish my project (or at least have a really hard time leaving it alone, even after it's published). But I won't let it control me like that.

[JohnDavidPaxton]

The short answer is that I don't. After a year or revision and edits I feel like I'm there. I'm not.

I admire and respect everyone who can look at their work with a more critical and technical eye than I.

[CaroGirl]

You never finish; you just run out of time.

After I revise for somewhere around the 4th time or so, I set myself a deadline to begin submitting. As long as the work has been through at least 2 drafts, one of which is with beta readers (not everyone uses betas, but I do), it's time to set yourself a deadline.

[Nateskate]

My Betas don't do edits. They love to read and if they love the story then I feel I'm on the right track. If they stop reading at a certain place, then I know there's a problem that needs to be fixed.

Book lovers don't put down books for days or weeks because they're busy. They do so because the book just isn't doing it for them. So, there's lots of reading between the lines with Betas.

[kzmiller]

Because it's possible to edit the life out of a manuscript I limit how many go-throughs I make. When I start pushing ten I know I'd better get it done and move on. Like in art, the sketch (rough draft) is not what you want to present as a final work, but it has an undeniable intensity and the best fire/spirit/whatever you want to call it. I try to preserve that motion when I paint but it's very hard and it gets harder the more I muck with it.

I've found it's easiest to preserve that energy in writing by letting the work sit between each pass. I go through from beginning to end and edit with a specific purpose in mind. Plot holes search. Consistency/timeline. Pacing. Tightening narrative. I usually do grammatical stuff last though I often pick at sentences with each pass (I can't help myself--must kill the clunk!) Beta testing is the best time to let it sit. I don't let myself touch it when it's being critiqued.

[RedScylla]

Yup. Running out of time and energy is the sure sign for me.

You never finish; you just run out of time.

[johnzakour]

I usually feel it's ready the day it's due to ship off to the publisher. Actually I don't feel it's quite ready then (there is always something to be tweaked) but I have no choice as it's due. That's why deadlines are good they force you to let your child go off into the world. (Kind of like the first day of Kindergarten.)

[Shadow_Ferret]

No matter what draft you're on, it seems a beta-reader can still point out things he or she likes and things that can be improved. It's a beta's job, after all, I know.

That's why I don't Beta.

I know when I'm done when I read it and all I'm doing is changing word choice and not content.

[DeleyanLee]

I have a set routine that I go through:

Finish first draft.
I read and revise as I see fit.
Handed to select betas for readerly commentary.
Adjust ms if story didn't come through clearly.
Hand to final reader (optional step)
Read aloud for nit-picky corrections and fix.
Submit
Vacation/reading time (usually 2-4 weeks)
Start writing something else

It's worked for me for ages.

[johnzakour]

Actually my routine is pretty set too:

1) think of title
2) think of story to go with title
3) outline story
4) outline story some more
5) write story from outline
6) edit story
7) edit story some more
8) publisher calls and asks, "when can we have story?"
9) answer "in 2 weeks"
10) edit story for 3 weeks
11) publisher calls and says "you said in 2 weeks, 3 weeks ago. Don't make us hurt you." (Not in those exact words)
12) sigh
13) send story to publisher

It's my 13 step process and it just works for me.

[ajkjd01]

Um...I dunno. Let me 'splain.

I could have sworn I was done with it a year ago or so. I sent out about ten queries, got two personalized rejections and eight form rejections. Took another look at it, and rewrote the whole darn thing. Workshopped it, got it critiqued, edited, rewrote some more, and decided that I was just moving a word here and a word there.

Started submitting again, and pitching at workshops. Sent out some more queries. Got form rejections and one very nice personalized rejection, and one very MEAN personalized rejection that still pisses me off. (That agent will never get a shot at any project of mine, now or in the future, just for how RUDE that rejection was.) Got an idea for what was wrong with the beginning, sat down, rewrote the beginning, had it critiqued again both online and by my critique group, and rewrote. Started sending again. Have gotten since then a couple of personalized rejections and a request for a full, along with one more form rejection.

Recently I went to another workshop, and read it aloud to be critiqued by a panel of published authors and editors. They said some things that I understood, but don't completely agree with, and the editing would be substantial. I talked to a published author who had worked with one of the editors, and he had good things to say about the guy's reputation and experience. I'm torn about whether I can make those changes without doing serious damage to the strong voice of the narrator.

I've put further editing on hold while I work on other projects and wait for answers on the outstanding queries and full. If I get nos back on those, I will likely make another pass on it. If I get a good response, then my first question to those agents will likely be to discuss those suggestions and get their response.

So, did I think I was done? Yup, couple of times. Am I done now? I don't know. Maybe.

[Phaeal]

My usual process:

Lots of research and story notes.

Detailed outline, including scenes and dialogue, really a very rough first draft.

Official first draft.

Detailed notes and essays on what's in the first draft and what should be in the second.

Second draft.

Betas.

Third draft, after re-reading, assimilating beta reactions, more notes.

Fourth draft, polishing.

Marketing -- no more revisions unless compelling crits or stipulations from agents or editors.

[AdamH]

There's no way to truly know.

For every word I write, I'm gaining experience on how to write something better. I could go back at some of my previous published work and say "Aw! That could've been said WAAAY better."

The truth is: I don't touch something I've published as I consider it a crumb trail from where I came from compared to where I am today.

As for existing work, I write until I decide that it's time to set it free. I allow myself the freedom to go back and change things until I find someone to take my feeble attempts to be a professional wordsmith and publish them.

I've got no set time frame or rule as to when this happens. I just know when I feel it's as close to what I want it to be...usually around the time a purplish bumb starts forming on my forehead from banging my head against the keyboard too much.

[stormie]

I'm my own beta reader. I know it's ready when I've put it aside for a few weeks and forget about it (while working on other mss.), then go back, reread it out loud, find I enjoyed it and there's hardly any grammatical, spelling errors to fix.

[scope]

Frankly, when after going through all the usual steps (i.e, critique partners, my agents opinion) I believe in my heart and soul that it's time.

[Aschenbach]

I need to know exactly what my story is about. I tell it as best I can, keep the characters real, the story gripping, and the prose as smooth as I can. Then I try to sneak in some subtext. When i've hit those general points I stop worrying about the really fine details like comma placement.

Then it gets betad, discussed and edited again, then its sub ready.

That's why I don't Beta.

I know when I'm done when I read it and all I'm doing is changing word choice and not content.

Surely word choice is content?
I don't have enough heart to submit without betas. I try to polish as well as I can but there will always be things I miss, and betas won't.

[maestrowork]

There is no such thing as perfection.

My rule of thumb is: If you find yourself tinkering with sentences and word choices or punctuation, or if your beta readers are griping mostly about editing nits instead of characters or plot or pacing, then you're probably ready to go.

[blacbird]

My rule of thumb is: If you find yourself tinkering with sentences and word choices or punctuation, or if your beta readers are griping mostly about editing nits instead of characters or plot or pacing, then you're probably ready to go.

Or maybe not. My personal experience increasingly suggests the latter.

caw

[WriterUnboxed]

I had a feeling at the gut level that my manuscript was ready for submission, so I started the process. Shortly thereafter, an agent spent about 30 minutes on the phone with me to spell out, in great detail, what wasn't right with my story and what he thought I should change--an experience that rattled my prior assuredness! I kept submitting, though, and within a month had my agent and a sale.

Your gut can be your most reliable guide, I think. Best of luck!

[jennontheisland]

I figure once beta readers and critiquers are offering nothing but contradicting suggestions, it's ready.

If they're agreeing, it's something that needs to be fixed. If they aren't it's opinion, and you'll never fix that.

[cethklein]

That's why I don't Beta.

I know when I'm done when I read it and all I'm doing is changing word choice and not content.

This. Although i sometimes do beta just for a different perspective. But once I'm happy with flow and content, I feel the project is ready. Let's face it, no writer is ever fully satisfied. I could change word choice on any book from now until eternity and I'd never think it's ready. You have to get to the point where you say "ok, enough, it's done".

[Telstar]

My process (not final) --I'm writing a trilogy.

1. world building
2. outline first book and synopsis of the second and third.
3. write the damn thing!
4. ongoing first draft revision
5. around the half of the first book, outline the second
6. finish writing the first book
7. betas (i have only two now, one of which is also my muse, but he will
also read the finished wip)
8. revise the first book (2nd draft - to improve plot and exposition)
9. write second book
etc.

20. revise entire trilogy (3rd and maybe 4th draft) for plot consistency, style and theme.
21 query

I'm not going to publish anything that I dont believe will be good enough. This means no external deadlines. I know from software and other industries how much deadlines causes the product to be flawed. A book is no exception. I see LOTS of things that could be improved in published books (esp mainstream fiction) that I wouldn't want to see in my own work on the shelves.
Unless I can afford a revised edition like Dan Brown... but I consider that event unlikely to happen.

[ajkjd01]

I figure once beta readers and critiquers are offering nothing but contradicting suggestions, it's ready.

If they're agreeing, it's something that needs to be fixed. If they aren't it's opinion, and you'll never fix that.

When I gave the last version of the first fifteen pages of my novel to my critique group, they split right down the middle and started arguing about it. Loudly. I listened, considered who was saying what, and their reasons, and decided that I liked it the way it was.

I posted it to my online critique group after that. For the most part, everyone liked it. There were one or two good suggestions, and I incorporated them.

Those pages got me a request for a full.

Then I went to a conference and read it aloud to be critiqued. I've taken a lot of critique. I normally take it well, even the stuff that's annoying or that I disagree with, because I'm used to it. I've been in a critique group for two years. I've workshopped the hell out of this thing. Every single person on the panel agreed as to what was wrong with it. The problem that I noticed is that the changes they suggested are ones that would change the book. And in a way that I specifically had decided I didn't want the book to go. It would change entirely the whole point of the book. Sigh. If just one person had said it, I could have dismissed it, and said that it's just their opinion, but of the five on the panel, they all agreed. I'm not sure I do, but I have a hard time dismissing the fact that it was fairly unanimous, and like you said, when they all agree, it's something to seriously consider.

I hate to be THAT writer, but I keep coming back around to "those are the pages that got me a request for a full." I told some writer friends that I'd chew on it for a while, and it's been a month. They've asked what I'm going to do, and I'm still in a holding pattern.

Anyone ever been in a situation like this where they've had to decide whether to incorporate changes like this before continuing to submit?

[Susan Lanigan]

I think I let my last one go too soon. I anticipate at least three drafts with this one and up to a year's extra work. And the second to be a complete rewrite of the first, which is very rough.

I never cease to marvel at people like Irene Nemirovsky, whose recovered Suite Francaise is a FIRST draft...that to me is incredible, or else I'm just bad at novels.

[RainbowDragon]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses, but feel free to continue posting. . .

[kzmiller]

When I gave the last version of the first fifteen pages of my novel to my critique group, they split right down the middle and started arguing about it. Loudly. I listened, considered who was saying what, and their reasons, and decided that I liked it the way it was.

I posted it to my online critique group after that. For the most part, everyone liked it. There were one or two good suggestions, and I incorporated them.

Those pages got me a request for a full.

Then I went to a conference and read it aloud to be critiqued. I've taken a lot of critique. I normally take it well, even the stuff that's annoying or that I disagree with, because I'm used to it. I've been in a critique group for two years. I've workshopped the hell out of this thing. Every single person on the panel agreed as to what was wrong with it. The problem that I noticed is that the changes they suggested are ones that would change the book. And in a way that I specifically had decided I didn't want the book to go. It would change entirely the whole point of the book. Sigh. If just one person had said it, I could have dismissed it, and said that it's just their opinion, but of the five on the panel, they all agreed. I'm not sure I do, but I have a hard time dismissing the fact that it was fairly unanimous, and like you said, when they all agree, it's something to seriously consider.

I hate to be THAT writer, but I keep coming back around to "those are the pages that got me a request for a full." I told some writer friends that I'd chew on it for a while, and it's been a month. They've asked what I'm going to do, and I'm still in a holding pattern.

Anyone ever been in a situation like this where they've had to decide whether to incorporate changes like this before continuing to submit?

Yes! Do I have advice? Yes, though it probably won't be as helpful and authoritative as I'd like it to be.

I assume that you read just the opening to a whole novel, correct? They didn't have access to the whole manuscript, or at least a synopsis?

Unless there is something very offputting about that opening that could hurt sales--baby rape, animal torture, an expository prologue that dead ends into an slow-starting first chapter, etc.--you have to go with *your* gut. Unfortunately. I say unfortunately because a panel of people with high level expertise is seldom wrong.

Something is going on here. The good news is that the something that's going on has marked your work as something that's off the beaten path and churned up controversy. Controversy is a very good thing. The bad news is that if one side of the controversy has more validity in terms of whether the ms is saleable or not, there's no way for you at this stage to determine that. I don't think there's a way anyone can predict whether the book will do well with the opening as it stands, including publishers. If publishers had all the answers, all books would be best-sellers. Seriously. Which brings it back around again to your gut.

Sometimes our guts don't work in our best interests, though. Maybe resistance to change is simply a symptom of the inner critic deliberately setting you up to fail so that you don't run the risk of success, or maybe it's fear that you'll mess the whole thing up if you change that opening and be forced to carry that change through the whole novel and take it in a direction that you don't want to go. After all, as you said, you got a request for pages. But it wasn't a sale, right? You may be clinging to a small success instead of reaching for a larger success that *might* become available to you.

My favorite option in these situations? Bear in mind that this is very tough to do. The infamous third option. Cut a new route. Think outside the existing parameters of the story. Make an outline, if you haven't already, and look for opportunities to travel into completely new territory.

Good luck!

[s_whiticar]

I just finished draft number five of my MS and I can still think of changes I want to make (mind you, they are not the extensive overhauls of the last few drafts) but I always find new ideas, new little details...etc.

Like others have said, it really is a matter of personal taste. Everyone's different. I believe in my work, I have done my research and my homework (to the point where it was probably unhealthy, the amount of time I spent trying to get every little detail just right, even if it never made it into the actual novel) and although I write what I want to write about, no matter what others think, I really have done my best to tell a good story for those who will read it.

Where I am at (and I think my MS is ready now) is that I can't think of any major changes I want to make in the story. Just down to worrying about the commas and semicolons now.

[ajkjd01]

Yes! Do I have advice? Yes, though it probably won't be as helpful and authoritative as I'd like it to be.

I assume that you read just the opening to a whole novel, correct? They didn't have access to the whole manuscript, or at least a synopsis?

Unless there is something very offputting about that opening that could hurt sales--baby rape, animal torture, an expository prologue that dead ends into an slow-starting first chapter, etc.--you have to go with *your* gut. Unfortunately. I say unfortunately because a panel of people with high level expertise is seldom wrong.

Something is going on here. The good news is that the something that's going on has marked your work as something that's off the beaten path and churned up controversy. Controversy is a very good thing. The bad news is that if one side of the controversy has more validity in terms of whether the ms is saleable or not, there's no way for you at this stage to determine that. I don't think there's a way anyone can predict whether the book will do well with the opening as it stands, including publishers. If publishers had all the answers, all books would be best-sellers. Seriously. Which brings it back around again to your gut.

Sometimes our guts don't work in our best interests, though. Maybe resistance to change is simply a symptom of the inner critic deliberately setting you up to fail so that you don't run the risk of success, or maybe it's fear that you'll mess the whole thing up if you change that opening and be forced to carry that change through the whole novel and take it in a direction that you don't want to go. After all, as you said, you got a request for pages. But it wasn't a sale, right? You may be clinging to a small success instead of reaching for a larger success that *might* become available to you.

My favorite option in these situations? Bear in mind that this is very tough to do. The infamous third option. Cut a new route. Think outside the existing parameters of the story. Make an outline, if you haven't already, and look for opportunities to travel into completely new territory.

Good luck!

You've hit the nail on the head here. You're right...they didn't have a synopsis, and it was a reading of about the first four pages. There was nothing to set it up, no query letter, no nothing, and it was read aloud.

And you're right...it was just a request for pages, not a sale. Which is why I haven't been able to just let it go as just a differing opinion and get it out of my head. I'm still waiting for a decision on the full request on that.

And to repeat it again...I think you're right. I've stopped querying the project for now. Not that I don't have ideas of where to send it next, but if the outstanding queries and fulls don't come to fruition, I think it'll be a return to what you called the third option...Yes, I had a twenty page outline when I started writing. It might be time to do some restructuring.

And no, I haven't stopped writing...I'm working on a couple of short stories, and a new novel while I'm waiting.

Thanks for your input. You've basically affirmed what I'm thinking, which does help.

[sharla]

I'll probably quit when I duct tape my hands together so I can't keep editing. Otherwise I always always always find more. It never ends!