The moon as a covert space station

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Plot Device

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Okay, guys, I have been slumming on some conspiracy web sites lately, and I found one conspiracy theory that states our moon is really a massive space base disguised as a moon.

I kinda like that idea because I have always marveled at the utter impossibility of our moon, and this is a way kewl concept to explain why we even have a moon. (We should NOT have a moon at all --certainly not one THAT size.)

Thoughts?

And how many sci-fi novels have been done with this premise?

I know that in cinema the movie The Truman Show kind of hints at it in a half-joking manner. Any other movies with this in it?







"THAT'S NO MOON .........



thatsnomoon83a8d12e17f04208a944d5d94d6df7e4.jpg




"............ IT'S A SPACE STATION!!!!!!!"








.
 
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Rolling Thunder

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Prepare to be eliminated...

Seriously, why no moon? Without the moon there would be no tides. I doubt life on Earth could exist without tides.
 

Plot Device

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Prepare to be eliminated...

Seriously, why no moon? Without the moon there would be no tides. I doubt life on Earth could exist without tides.


We shouldn't have a moon because we are NOT a Jovian planet. We're a Terran planet. The only other Terran planet with any moon is Mars, and its two whimpy little moonlets are just lumpy leftovers of asteroids.

The sheer size of our moon is freakish when its compared to its "host planet." No other planet in our system has a moon whose size is a significant percentage of its host. Just bizarre.
 

Mumut

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H G Wells 'First Man in the Moon' supports this. Who was it? Cavor who was left there? He must have been working all this time on the project.
 

benbradley

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There were two Really Bad "Sci-Fi" (yes, I WILL use that term when "appropriate") TV shows strongly based on the Moon. One involved a secret CIA type organization where the guy in charge regularly went to the Moon the way many business execs would go on commercial flights. They were secretly fighting aliens, both on Earth and the Moon.\
In the other, the Moon is no longer an Earth satellite, thanks to some war or accident in which a large number of nuclear weapons detonated on the Moon and (quite implausibly) pushed it out of both Earth's and the Sun's orbit, and the Moon, home to the people living on the Moon base at the time of the event, travels uncontrollably but merrily through space.

One of these was called "Space: 1999" and I forget what the other was called.

But in neither one of these was the Moon itself a "covert space station" or anything other than what it's known to have been.

Prepare to be eliminated...

Seriously, why no moon? Without the moon there would be no tides. I doubt life on Earth could exist without tides.
Actually, the Sun also contributes rather strongly to the tides, so that the tides are weaker during a quarter and three-quarter moon, and stronger at New Moon and Full Moon.

I'm not sure how much a regular tide would contribute to the existence of life anyway, and even so, variations in weather, especially hurricanes, would cause the occasional storm surge that would do pretty much the same thing.
We shouldn't have a moon because we are NOT a Jovian planet. We're a Terran planet. The only other Terran planet with any moon is Mars, and its two whimpy little moonlets are just lumpy leftovers of asteroids.

The sheer size of our moon is freakish when its compared to its "host planet." No other planet in our system has a moon whose size is a significant percentage of its host. Just bizarre.
This is true, I've read about it, and in recent centuries there has been much speculation about the source of the Moon, whether it was an external mass captured into Earth orbit or whether it was once a part of Earth that was violently torn away. ISTR the last theory hypothesis has in recent decades become more accepted It happened billions of years ago regardless, and there appears to be good reason to believe that it was much closer to Earth back then. It's receeding from Earth at some slow rate, I forget exactly, perhaps a centimeter per year.


But the idea is quite out there... if it WERE such a thing, it's quite likely been dormant in modern times (such as the '60's when the far side was first investigated by orbiting probes, then by guys with fancy Hasselblad cameras (Apollo 8, whose 40-year anniversary of the Christmas eve TV broadcast is coming up in a few months). They could have missed radio transmissions from the Moon's far surface, but I think they took enough high-resolution pictures that if something on the surface as big a maybe a house didn't look right, someone would have noticed. And I'd think antennas or telescopes on or above the surface would be neccesary for any "space station"

But of course, it doesn't neccesarily follow that NASA would release this info, thus...
 

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David Weber's Dahak series deals with exactly this type of thing (Mutineer's Moon, The Armageddon Inheritance, Heirs of Empire, and one more whose title I don;t recall right now).

The idea is not original. A couple of Soviet scientists about 30-40 years ago wrote a book called Our Mysterious Spaceship Moon, there was another guy who wrote Somebody Else Is On The Moon, and Richard Hoagland has a a series of webpages at his Enterprize Mission site focusing on Saturn's moon Enceladus which has some interesting architecture-like terrain.
 
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Rabe

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Okay, guys, I have been slumming on some conspiracy web sites lately, and I found one conspiracy theory that states our moon is really a massive space base disguised as a moon.

I kinda like that idea because I have always marveled at the utter impossibility of our moon, and this is a way kewl concept to explain why we even have a moon. (We should NOT have a moon at all --certainly not one THAT size.)


.

So...then the moon isn't a human construct but something of alien origin?
Or, does this tie in with the theory that humans aren't of Earth origin but some sort of castoffs from some alien cruiseship? Maybe Adam and Eve were on a three lightyear tour and something came up stranding them with the Skipper, Gilligan, the Professor, Maryanne and Ginger?

While interesting in the completely campy, assinine 'sci-fi' way - any serious discussion of it as such could be considered entirely laughable.

Rabe...
 

NicoleMD

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Eight planets doesn't sound like a significant sampling size to come to that conclusion, but what do I know? Whose space base would it be? Aliens? Why wouldn't they have attacked yet? Why haven't we noticed them? Is the Government in cahoots with the aliens? When was contact made?

If it's a human base, is it from some ancient civilization that populated the earth, so we're really the aliens?

But, I'd believe it if you spun it the right way. Alistair Reynold's Pushing Ice had a moon (Janus, I think) that was really a spherical space ship. That was pretty cool, so I say go for it.

Nicole
 

Plot Device

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There were two Really Bad "Sci-Fi" (yes, I WILL use that term when "appropriate") TV shows strongly based on the Moon. One involved a secret CIA type organization where the guy in charge regularly went to the Moon the way many business execs would go on commercial flights. They were secretly fighting aliens, both on Earth and the Moon.\
In the other, the Moon is no longer an Earth satellite, thanks to some war or accident in which a large number of nuclear weapons detonated on the Moon and (quite implausibly) pushed it out of both Earth's and the Sun's orbit, and the Moon, home to the people living on the Moon base at the time of the event, travels uncontrollably but merrily through space.

One of these was called "Space: 1999" and I forget what the other was called.

But in neither one of these was the Moon itself a "covert space station" or anything other than what it's known to have been.

I totally recall the Space: 1999 tv show. The premise was that there was an international lunar base that was the overseeing operational base for the management of about four or five massive nuclear waste containment facilities on the moon. All of the existing containment facilities became overloaded and they began to magnetically polarize with each other (or some made-up physics like that) and then a huge explosion happened that sent the moon out of orbit.



This is true, I've read about it, and in recent centuries there has been much speculation about the source of the Moon, whether it was an external mass captured into Earth orbit or whether it was once a part of Earth that was violently torn away. ISTR the last theory hypothesis has in recent decades become more accepted It happened billions of years ago regardless, and there appears to be good reason to believe that it was much closer to Earth back then. It's receeding from Earth at some slow rate, I forget exactly, perhaps a centimeter per year.

I have heard that the moon is receding from us.

I also heard the two theories of either the Earth being in the right place at the right time to capture some wayward moon as it passed by, and also the theory of some cataclysmic event causing the Earth to rupture and eject a huge molten chunk of itself into space and then the ejecta became our moon. I guess this ejecta theory would be kinda like if you had one ball of Play Dough but then you yanked off a sizeable hunk leaving two lesser hunks of unequal size. I have always wondered about the giant crack that runs down the middle of the Atlantic Ocean--maybe THAT is the scar that remains from such an event?

But the idea is quite out there

Oh, I agree! :)

But that's what makes conspiracy sites so much fun! :D

... if it WERE such a thing, it's quite likely been dormant in modern times (such as the '60's when the far side was first investigated by orbiting probes, then by guys with fancy Hasselblad cameras (Apollo 8, whose 40-year anniversary of the Christmas eve TV broadcast is coming up in a few months). They could have missed radio transmissions from the Moon's far surface, but I think they took enough high-resolution pictures that if something on the surface as big a maybe a house didn't look right, someone would have noticed. And I'd think antennas or telescopes on or above the surface would be neccesary for any "space station"

But of course, it doesn't neccesarily follow that NASA would release this info, thus...

I am right now watchng a YouTube video of a guy claiming our moon is an artificial craft from which aliens have been covertly observing us for millions of years. (He's really kinda nutty. But the entire room of people who are listening to his lecture are just spellbound!)
 

Mac H.

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There was a Arthur C Clarke short story 'Jupiter V' from the 1950s which had this premise .. although it was one of Jupiter's moon rather than ours that was an abandoned space station.

I'm not quite sure I can see the argument of 'We shouldn't have a moon because we are NOT a Jovian planet. We're a Terran planet.'

So of the four terrestrial style planets nearby (Mercury, Venus, Earth & Mars) the stats are:

Mercury: No moons
Venus: No moons
Earth: One moon
Mars: Two moons

Surely that indicates that it wouldn't be surprising if a random terrestrial style planet happened to have a moon?

Not only that, but the ones closest to the sun have fewer moons, and the ones further away have more moons ... which makes perfect sense and matches the rule of thumb for the rest of the planets.

Mac
 

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The fact is, we do have one. The current theory of the origin of the Moon is that while the Solar system was still forming (in a way it still kinda is) a Mars-sized object collided with the young and hot Earth and the debris formed the Moon.
 

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I do like the idea a lot of the Moon being a space station, but for me the story would have to be set in the far-future because the creation of the Moon isn't in any way an unexplained mystery. I'm guessing (and I hope you don't mind me doing so) that the basic mental image you might have of how the Earth formed was that there was a central mass that gradually got bigger as chunks of material were gravitationally drawn to it, until you were left with the Earth-sized object.

There are gaps in Solar System formation theory, but the overall scenario is well-accepted and is different from the above. I don't think this is the place to go into details (unless you wish it), but as a general overview, a cloud of gas and dust began to gravitationally contract. It had a bit of rotational motion, and as it contracted, it span faster, as a spinning ice dancer would when they pull in their arms. The cloud flattens into a disc with a young Sun at its centre.

Dust particles in the disc collide and stick together, becoming larger (in a process called accretion), until they are a few kilometres across and are known as planetesimals. They collide with each other, and the growth of larger ones in a region would start to outpace the others, sweeping them up. Eventually you go from lots of planetesimals to a few hundred objects that are a few thousand kilometres across, called planetary embryos. The main point here is that there is no one object at the start that is 'destined' to become the Earth, or any other planet.

Chance collisions between planetary embryos would have been devastating, melting both bodies and causing them to combine. The embryos would grow through these giant impacts. The Earth would have taken 100 million years to be the final result of a series of these collisions.

The Moon likely resulted from the last giant impact to affect the 'Earth'. A smaller embryo hit a larger one: some of the material of the two bodies combined, and some ended up in orbit around it. This was a bit unusual, but not unlikely. The orbiting material eventually accreted to form the Moon, and the larger body cooled to form the Earth.

This is all supported by things like evidence from density measurements of the Earth and Moon and the other terrestrial planets; studies of meteorites, including some dating from the planetesimal stage and of what we understand about how the planets evolved internally after their growth essentially stopped. The mid-Atlantic ridge is not a signature of an impact, but a result of tectonic activity, where the plates that make up the Earth's crust are diverging and material from the magma below is welling up and adding to the crust. This is balanced by places like all down the west coast of South America, where one plate is forced below another and crust is being destroyed. Tectonic activity is a one of the results of heat trying to escape the Earth's interior after it formed; it is separate to the planetary formation process.

Sorry about the ramble; my point is that personally, although the Moon as a space station has lots of possibilities, I wouldn't be able to suspend disbelief if these basics weren't taken into account in the story. I can't think of examples where it was done.
 

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Dammit Sophia, evidence-backed scientific theory and observable phenomenon have no place in a total flight of fancy thread like this!

-Derek
 

Higgins

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Okay, guys, I have been slumming on some conspiracy web sites lately, and I found one conspiracy theory that states our moon is really a massive space base disguised as a moon.

I kinda like that idea because I have always marveled at the utter impossibility of our moon, and this is a way kewl concept to explain why we even have a moon. (We should NOT have a moon at all --certainly not one THAT size.)

Thoughts?


.

Here's a sketch of the standard scientific idea about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_impact_hypothesis
 

benbradley

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There was a Arthur C Clarke short story 'Jupiter V' from the 1950s which had this premise .. although it was one of Jupiter's moon rather than ours that was an abandoned space station.

I'm not quite sure I can see the argument of 'We shouldn't have a moon because we are NOT a Jovian planet. We're a Terran planet.'

So of the four terrestrial style planets nearby (Mercury, Venus, Earth & Mars) the stats are:

Mercury: No moons
Venus: No moons
Earth: One moon
Mars: Two moons

Surely that indicates that it wouldn't be surprising if a random terrestrial style planet happened to have a moon?

Not only that, but the ones closest to the sun have fewer moons, and the ones further away have more moons ... which makes perfect sense and matches the rule of thumb for the rest of the planets.

Mac
I recall a bit of a "consipracy theory" about Mars. The facts are that the two moons were discovered MANY YEARS AFTER people had been observing Mars very closely with telescopes plenty powerful enough to see Mars' moons. The conspiracy idea is that the moons actually weren't there during that early time of Mars observation, and somehow "showed up" in orbit around Mars.
 

FennelGiraffe

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We shouldn't have a moon because we are NOT a Jovian planet. We're a Terran planet. The only other Terran planet with any moon is Mars, and its two whimpy little moonlets are just lumpy leftovers of asteroids.

Four terrestrial planets in one solar system -- not a very large sample to be basing sweeping conclusions on. Actually, Mercury could be considered a special case for being so close to the Sun that any moon would have been lost early on. That would leave just Venus, Mars, and Earth: no moon, two small moons, and one large moon. Shrug. Not much of a 'normal pattern' there.

The sheer size of our moon is freakish when its compared to its "host planet." No other planet in our system has a moon whose size is a significant percentage of its host. Just bizarre.

Depending where you stand on Pluto's status*, that's not true. The Moon is 1/4 the diameter of Earth, but Charon is 1/2 the diameter of Pluto. Of course, then you also get into the question of where to draw the line between planet&moon vs. binary planets.


*Trying not to go there, since it's OT for this thread.
 

Pthom

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You wouldn't need anything nearly as large as Earth's moon to make a perfectly adequate space station. As mentioned, the moons of Mars are very small (and are destined to crash into their planet in the next millenium or so).

Greg Bear's Eon and Arthur C. Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama both describe hollowed out iron asteroids as vessel/stations (both abandoned by their creators). The big disadvantage I can see about this idea, is that to move them about a solar system (or between them) you need a huge chunk of bolognium. But a relatively light-weight construct, such as the Star Wars Death Star thing is conceivable. Just have to hire a decent Hollywood special effects team to make it LOOK like a moon. :D
 

arkady

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There were two Really Bad "Sci-Fi" (yes, I WILL use that term when "appropriate") TV shows strongly based on the Moon. One involved a secret CIA type organization where the guy in charge regularly went to the Moon the way many business execs would go on commercial flights. They were secretly fighting aliens, both on Earth and the Moon.

The show you're thinking of was UFO, and it aired in the early Seventies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFO_(TV_series)

Whether it was "really bad" or not depends upon who you ask. Certainly the show has a hardcore following to this day:

http://ufoseries.com/
http://www.britishdrama.org.uk/ufo.html
 

MadScientistMatt

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The "Earth's moon is too big" arguement is not based on percentages, so much as mathematical attempts to figure out how planets catch moons. The Earth's Moon is bigger than Pluto, and larger than astronomers have ever found in the Belt of Asteroids. Jupiter has a large gravitational field and it would make sense for random things almost the size of planets to get caught in its gravity well. Earth is so much smaller that for it to grab a random dwarf planet would be like Steve Urkel catching a lion with his bare hands.

Back to the original topic, check out The Mad Revisionist and his arguement that the existance of the Moon is a complete hoax.
 

geardrops

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Seriously, why no moon? Without the moon there would be no tides. I doubt life on Earth could exist without tides.

Er, really? Why not?

Life might be changed, but I suspect we could handle the not-having of tides.

However, I am not a biology/geology/oceanology person. Perhaps someone better-equipped could explain? Sure, the life that exists within the tidal bracket would probably evolve drastically or die out, but the rest? I think we can live without tides...

Anyway, as per the initial post... I think it's a fun idea, and it sounds like it's been done before, but not in any way that sounds particularly exciting to me, at least on the surface, by what others have posted :)
 
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Smiling Ted

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I believe UFO and Space: 1999 were both created by Gerry Anderson.

As for the moon as a giant Death Star, the only logical flaw is that if we had the resources and the technology to build it, we wouldn't be worrying about Russia, Georgia and gas prices, and the entire world would be buying America-brand flying cars.
 

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1) Life on Earth re: Tides: Yeah, Earth would have life, but the tides help by throwing those life forms on beaches, encouraging it to live out of the water, or at least develop an amphibian life-style (beyond insects and plants, of course).

2) Moon's Origins: We've been able to show that the Moon was formed from part of the Earth's crust (the rocks match those that would have formed part of the ocean floor).

3) Space Station Luna: The obvious problem is that the Moon is the most observed body (outside of the Earth obviously), and any kind of traffic would need to be made invisible against that observation. Also, you would need supplies; otherwise, any hydroponics or other cultivation would also be obvious for terrestrial observers. And that's not even allowing that it would, at this point, have too many people participating to keep a secret successfully...

FR
 

Pthom

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An interesting take on use of the Moon as a covert base is in the novel Moon Flash by Patricia A. McKillip.

Spoiler alert:






Here, the use of the moon is not exactly covert, except in the eyes of those who observe the comings and goings there. Although you might consider passing this up because it's YA, the writing is excellent (see reviews in the above link), and the story and its characters most engaging.

I can't recommend this story enough.
 
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