sex scenes in fantasy

DisenchantedDoc said:

I had a laugh last night because one of my hard-core geek contingent beta readers (aka - one of my husband's friends who's life follows the path of the 20-sided die) sent me an email with his thoughts on my epic fantasy novel. One of his complaints is that I had "2 sex scenes" in it and that they were "rather graphic". He was offended that I would "taint high fantasy with something vulgar" like that.

So after I wiped the tears away from laughing (because my "graphic sex scenes" seem like junior high stuff compared to Laurel K Hamilton and some other writers out there), I thought I'd offer this topic up as fodder for the forum.

Is there a place for sex in traditional (epic, high, etc) fantasy?

And if so, how far would be too far in describing it?

My 2 cents is that it's how babies are made, and you need to continue the species (unless your world has some strange rules about procreation), so sex would be part of everyday life in fantasy world just was sword fighting and spell casting would be.

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I'm pretty imune to any amount of graphicness in a novel or show etc, none of that bothers me.

I think that having sex scenes in your story is perfectly fine, I laughed too while reading this post!

Just, you know, don't go too far with describing the feelings and physical movements... I don't know what the age range is of your story, but I trust it's okay.

Fir the gods sake, warn him off old GRRM, oh and Terry Goodkind and all teh others then -- he'll have a heart attack

Personally I'd say to him that just because LOTR doesn't have sex, doesn't mean all fantasy has no sex.

Don't put sex in just for the sake of it -- but if it needs to be there go for it

I say write what you like, none of us are all that weird. There will be plenty of people that agree with you about it. And, if you write what someone else wants you to write, it won't ring true.

Well, it does seem that most of the folks in LOTR were born tragically without genitalia. Maybe that's why they cast Orlando Bloom in the movie.

Anyone who has read the genre widely would know it has always include sexual material. If anything the 'Disneyfication' of fantasy is a very new phenomena this is distorting (i.e. castrating) the genre.

I'm not sure it;s possible to "taint" high fantasy. I suppose he wanted some orgasmic description of woody mountains or something instead of sex? How silly.

IdiotsRUs said:

Personally I'd say to him that just because LOTR doesn't have sex, doesn't mean all fantasy has no sex.

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And it would be more accurate to say that Tolkien did think about his character's sexuality but chose only to show it in vague terms. For example, how often do we hear Sam thinking about how he wished the whole thing was over, and he could just go back to the Shire and settle down with a nice Hobbit girl?

Most high fantasy writers at least let sexuality appear in the story as motivation and desires, like Tolkien did, and many of them are a bit more explicit.

The Followers of the Twenty-Sided Die spend most of their lives playing games that revolve around violence. And looting corpses. And defiling graves.

If anything, I'd consider sex a much less controversial topic. At least it's wholesome and enjoyable and (usually) no one gets hurt--unless they want that. I blame latent US Puritanism.

Well, I guess it depends a lot on the book you're writing, and whether sex scenes fit into it. For instance, I think sex scenes would definitely be out of place in say, Tolkien's The Lord of The Rings. Don't know why. Just wouldn't really feel right to read about frodo banging a she-hobbit to me.

On the other hand, there are a lot of fantasy authors who do employ sex scenes... Some examples off the top of my head would be Abercrombie and George Martin. But these scenes fit in with the story. It doesn't jar you to read about them, because they fit into the author's writing and the author's world.

Traditional high fantasies (IMHO) tend to skirt away from realism a little. So the bad guys are often times evil with a capital E. And the good guy is usually semi-infallible. And Love remains something abstract.

Another good example would be Harry Potter. Certainly Harry having sex by the time he's seventeen years old and fighting the most powerful Dark Wizard evar shouldn't be out of the question... And yet, we all know that just wouldn't have worked.

Still, I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you. Your beta was obviously biased.

DisenchantedDoc said:

Is there a place for sex in traditional (epic, high, etc) fantasy?

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Sure.

DisenchantedDoc said:

And if so, how far would be too far in describing it?

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Not very. No description can capture the real thing. Besides, the more is (if it can be) left to the imagination of the reader, the better, IMO.

SPMiller said:

The Followers of the Twenty-Sided Die spend most of their lives playing games that revolve around violence. And looting corpses. And defiling graves.

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Which don't have to be played that way. After all, a DVD player can be used to watch Citizen Kane or Saw III.

Does he get offended every time he takes a shower, too?

CynicalRyan said:

Which don't have to be played that way.

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Please. Let's not kid around here. Most d20 systems are primarily designed for combat. Or else there wouldn't be complicated systems of combat spellcasting, combat feats, combat skills, rounds and actions, etc..

After all, a DVD player can be used to watch Citizen Kane or Saw III.

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Hey, don't get me wrong--I like violence in my entertainment. I was just saying it's a lot worse than sex, from an objective standpoint. Violence runs counter to our well-being as a species; sex generally contributes to it.

Things that make you go "hm..."

SPMiller said:

Please. Let's not kid around here. Most d20 systems are primarily designed for combat. Or else there wouldn't be complicated systems of combat spellcasting, combat feats, combat skills, rounds and actions, etc..

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Which inevitably gives rise to the question...what would a D20 system designed for sex look like?

Hmm....

IdiotsRUs said:

Fir the gods sake, warn him off old GRRM, oh and Terry Goodkind and all teh others then -- he'll have a heart attack

Personally I'd say to him that just because LOTR doesn't have sex, doesn't mean all fantasy has no sex.

Don't put sex in just for the sake of it -- but if it needs to be there go for it

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Really? I guess I've lived in ignorance, I didn't think there was sex in High Fantasy either.

And thanks, Idiots, for warning me away from those two.

I agree with everyone who said to write what works, and if that includes sex scenes, run with it.

But I guess it is at least worth noting that your beta had this particular response. Rightly or wrongly, the view that sex is out of place in fantasy clearly exists. People who hold that view might be put off your story. I don't think it's the majority view, but it can't hurt to keep possible audience expectations in mind. You may (or may not; again, write what the story needs) want to keep it fairly un-graphic given this.

Smiling Ted said:

Which inevitably gives rise to the question...what would a D20 system designed for sex look like?

Hmm....

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This.

Also, I remember a scene in GRRM's novels where a man has sex with his sister while she's menstruating, then wipes away the blood with his sleeve.

Definitely high fantasy stuff, right there. If Mr Martin can mix so much squick into one scene and still end up writing what's called one of the better fantasy series in decades, I'd say you're free to do just about whatever you like.

Sex scenes in any type of fantasy are perfectly fine. I don't think you can go too far with those - if anything, fantasy tends to be more tolerant of taboo themes than any other genre - GRRM, for example, gets away with underage sex and incest.

However, you need to be aware that if you do have R-rated content in your work, some of your readers will not be happy. Some are religious, some are prudes, some follow the 20-sided die, etc. It is only fair to warn your readers in advance there is adult content; saves time and nerves. I now explicitly tell my prospective readers there are GLBT relationships in my novel. In the beginning I didn't think it would be a problem for anyone, but I was wrong.

Best of luck,
Rose

I don't think high fantasy should have a moral issue with violence. Unlike American TV, if someone isn't upset by the brutal slaughter of thousands, they shouldn't be offended by a nipple.

Adults with adult issues in an adult world have sex, make love, screw, fuck, hump, and everything in between. Seriously examining the human (or elven) condition should take into account social interaction and procreation.

We'll find out. A good friend of mine was recently hired to write a sex role-playing game. So far it's been a laugh listening to her trying to come up with ideas.

Smiling Ted said:

Which inevitably gives rise to the question...what would a D20 system designed for sex look like?

Hmm....

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MattW said:

Adults with adult issues in an adult world have sex, make love, screw, fuck, hump, and everything in between. Seriously examining the human (or elven) condition should take into account social interaction and procreation.

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Bravo!

But just what is between a fuck and a hump?

MattW said:

Adults with adult issues in an adult world have sex, make love, screw, fuck, hump, and everything in between. Seriously examining the human (or elven) condition should take into account social interaction and procreation.

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Why? Personally, I don't think it does need to include sex. I leave that for erotica. I just want action. Adventure. Magic. And so on.

Leave the procreation to Masters and Johnson.

Sex does not imply erotica. I don't know why you conflate the two. Moreover, sex in fantasy generally doesn't attempt titillation. It's usually done in the interests of furthering the plot or developing the characters. Because sex can play a role in a plot--perhaps moreso in fantasy than in any other genre, given fantasy's tendency toward depicting feudal and/or family-based power structures. Who someone's fucking matters a lot when he's a king or a prince or a lord or an archon or a governor or...