How many drafts for a novel?

[azbikergirl]

We all agree that a first draft is a story started from scratch on a blank page or new file. I've noticed that some writers call subsequent "drafts" what I consider "revisions." That is, when I use the word "draft," I mean starting from a blank screen or page, NOT a fresh copy of the first draft to rip apart and put together again. The latter is what I consider a revision.

With that in mind, how many drafts do you write for a novel? I'm particularly interested in those of you who've published traditionally. Do you write a first draft, revise it, edit it and call it done? Or do you write it from scratch more than once before you start the revision process?

I'm on the third revision of my third draft -- it's taken me that much time/effort to get the story right. Is this typical? I'm finding that most of the stories I write lately don't need that much work. I'm either improving or getting lazy. :D

[katiemac]

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm thinking about three drafts.

I just finished my first one. I want to go through it once more (add more scenes, cut and polish what I already have) then send it to a beta reader for the third time around.

[E.G. Gammon]

I am not a published writer, and my own example doesn't really have anything to do with NOVEL writing, but, I'll say it anyway because I think the process could be used for writing a novel.

When I began writing my novel series in progress, it was going to be a network soap opera with scripts. It took me a while to develop the story and I even wrote the Pilot script. This is how I did it:

I wrote a first draft, based on the outline I had written for myself. Then I took that same outline, once I was finished with the first draft, and I wrote a whole other draft (without looking at the original draft). Then when I had those two drafts, I took them both, compared them, and from them I created a final draft.

Scripts are completely different than novels, but I suppose the process could be used on individual chapters... From an outline, write a chapter, write it again without looking at the first version, and then compare and combine the two, creating a final version.

[Jamesaritchie]

We all agree that a first draft is a story started from scratch on a blank page or new file. I've noticed that some writers call subsequent "drafts" what I consider "revisions." That is, when I use the word "draft," I mean starting from a blank screen or page, NOT a fresh copy of the first draft to rip apart and put together again. The latter is what I consider a revision.

With that in mind, how many drafts do you write for a novel? I'm particularly interested in those of you who've published traditionally. Do you write a first draft, revise it, edit it and call it done? Or do you write it from scratch more than once before you start the revision process?

I'm on the third revision of my third draft -- it's taken me that much time/effort to get the story right. Is this typical? I'm finding that most of the stories I write lately don't need that much work. I'm either improving or getting lazy. :D

Well, for me, there's the first draft, the second draft, etc. I don't separate drafts and rewriting, and in truth, do almost nothing in the way of serious revision. I generally do two drafts. Strike that. Two drafts was technically typewriter days. When I abandoned typewriters and started writing all first drafts in longhand, I really went to two and a half drafts.

I don't outline, I hate outlines, and I hate character charts and outlines even more. I start with a situation, and just write.

In truth, I try to get all the important major things, plot, story, characterization, right the first time through. I try to get them at least right enough so no major revisions are necessary. But when the first, longhand draft is finished, I do sort of a mini second draft as I enter it into the computer. This really amounts to making any minor changes that catch my eye.

When it's all in the computer, I go back to page one and do a polish draft. This is where I tighten sentences, rewrite the clunkers, sharpen dialogue, eliminate goofy words such as "that," "got," etc. When this is done, so am I.

[reph]

I don't call it a second draft if you start over with a blank sheet. Each draft after the first builds on the previous one or at least on an earlier one. It isn't a revision, either, if it wasn't produced by revising something. If you scrap your first draft and start from scratch, I'd call it a second version. But I'm not a novelist, so it doesn't matter what I call it.

[E.G. Gammon]

I don't call it a second draft if you start over with a blank sheet. Each draft after the first builds on the previous one or at least on an earlier one. It isn't a revision, either, if it wasn't produced by revising something. If you scrap your first draft and start from scratch, I'd call it a second version. But I'm not a novelist, so it doesn't matter what I call it.

I'm guessing that's a response to my process I described above, so I'll rephrase:

-from Outline/Description -> Write Version 1 (of chapter)
(put Version 1 aside)

-from Outline/Description -> Write Version 2 (of chapter)

-Take Version 1 and Version 2, compare and combine -> Version 3 (final)

That sounds better. I also agree on the draft/version difference.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

I'm just feeling my way into this process myself, but for what it's worth...

I've produced three "first drafts" of novels thus far using the NaNoWriMo (http://www.nanowrimo.com) method, which could also be referred to as the "Oh my GODS I'm 6000 words behind gotta write gotta write NOW!!!" method. It helped me get the hell out of my own way and put the story down on paper, but it wasn't exactly conducive to good organization. The reason I've put "first drafts" above in quotes is, what in fact resulted was somewhat less than a respectable draft, but somewhat more than what Uncle Jim has called an outline (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=82323#post82323). It was certainly more of an actual story than it was a talking-about-the-story, but the plot arc wasn't exactly well defined yet.

Right now I'm going through the process of revising two of them, alternating between them. (Why two at once? Short attention span, I guess...) Both of them seem to require a lot of reorganization from a big-picture perspective (does this scene really go here? Should this actually be split up into two scenes? Instead of having this happen, should I maybe raise/lower the stakes in this chapter's conflict? I need to write a whole new scene here!) as well as a lot of rewriting from the line-by-line point of view.

When I'm done this revision, I'll have something I feel more comfortable calling an actual first draft, something that I can reasonably consider one more revision away (http://hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/one-pass-revision.html) from being ready for a beta reader. I suspect that after performing that after a beta reader or three get done with that, there will be one more go-through to incorporate suggestions and check for typos, and then I'll be working on the fine and intimidating art of book proposals.

Or maybe I'll put them in a drawer and just write a new book, given that these are my first novels and November is coming up again. Maybe if I spend a bit more time in October planning the story arc I can skip the "first draft" and move right to the first draft with this next one.

[reph]

I'm guessing that's a response to my process I described above....
I was mostly addressing azbikergirl, who talked about setting aside a first draft and creating a second one that wasn't an edited version of the first one, but "you" meant anyone.

[E.G. Gammon]

I was mostly addressing azbikergirl, who talked about setting aside a first draft and creating a second one that wasn't an edited version of the first one, but "you" meant anyone.

Ah, got it.

[stace001]

I've always classed a draft as reading through the manuscript and making any changes that are required. Usually about 3 drafts for me. I'm only on my third novel, so i'm by no means an expert, but that's what works for me.:)

[zornhau]

Since I'm not working cooperatively, I use the terms draft and revision with merry imprecision. Suspect that, with the advent of the word processor, these terms have now merged.

I'm on the second pass through my WIP. I've redrafted some scenes from scratch, added or deleted several, and revised everything for plot and readability. I expect to do a third pass for theme, pacing, continuity and prose.

[scribbler1382]

To me, this is all just seems like quibbling over semantics. One of the most important things a newbie writer can do is act professional. Part of this is to use the vernacular of the industry. Just because you call your phone a potato, doesn't mean you can go to someone else's house and not be held down while they call Bellevue when you start shouting "The potato is ringing! The potato is ringing!"

I also notice a lot of versioning being talked about here. While this is probably a good idea while you get your chops, as it were, it seems to me that it could be dangerous. One of the most important and difficult things a writer has to do is make choices. Eventually, or so it's hoped, most of those choices will become reflex and take little or no effort. That's the goal. The problem with this versioning of chapters/books is you take the onis of choice off of the creation plate and put it on the revision plate. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you need to be perfect the first time around. Many, many, many revisions are usually needed to make anything rise above trashcan filler, but looking at a choice and saying "I'll just write everything I can think of as many times as I can" seems like it would shortcut your ultimate choice-honing goal. Writing A and B and then at a later time combining them to make C isn't wrong, it's just a protracted approach to a process that, IMO, should take place instantly in the writer's mind before his or her fingers press the keycaps or scratch the notepad.

[Christine N.]

I think most of my work goes through about four drafts. First draft, get the story out. Second draft, clean it up so it makes sense. Third draft, clean up the writing. Send it to betas. Fourth draft after I get all crits from betas. Fix up missed grammar mistakes and any weird plot stuff I missed. Send it out.

Sounds like alot, but really only the first two drafts are really intensive. Everything after that is tweaking.

[LightShadow]

I wrote 9 revisions before I decided I needed to add another character, and essentially diversify the novel. On that second draft I revised 4 times. I called each one a draft, however, because even though they were revisions (in a sense), the novel changed dramatically because with each revision and polish things changed greatly. Lucky number 13 got me the agent. Thing is, that's just me. Some writers might pull it off quickly, or with a load of drafts. It's up to you. I good writer is never completely satisfied, anyway...don't submit until you are sending your best stuff. A professional is an amateur who didn't quit. www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

[maestrowork]

By your definition of "drafts".... I only have one draft of any of my stories or novels.

I do have many revisions.

[azbikergirl]

I good writer is never completely satisfied, anyway...don't submit until you are sending your best stuff.
I find this true of software development also; all software has bugs. It's never truly finished, but at some point we have to put a bow on it.

[LightShadow]

This is true, send your best, even if it means knowing that it's only 99.9% great. Thing is, no matter what you think of your writing, you know that compared to most of that stuff out there, you're great and have a great chance. That's all you need to know, and then perservere. There's no conspiracy against new writers, though some people think so. It just takes perserverance.

www.geocities.com/douglasvgibbs

[katdad]

Working on a computer, I revise continually and don't specify whether there is a 2nd draft or 3rd revision or whatever.

My recent mystery novel was just accepted for representation by my agent, and in the meantime I'd made a few small changes to a jet crash sequence due to some excellent feedback from a pilot buddy.

So I've just sent my agent a 100% fresh laser copy (printed at home on my new HP LaserJet!) so he'll have the L&G (latest and greatest).

However, I did go thru a 100% rewrite on my 1st novel last year -- lengthened it, cleaned it up throughout. That would be a major revision of course.

[SeanDSchaffer]

...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!:D

Okay, all laughs aside.

Seriously, I do as many revisions as needed to make the work the best I can do. If that means two revisions, great. If it means twenty, so be it. I do however many drafts (revisions, whatever) it takes to make the story the best I can make it.

I personally have no specific amount of drafts or revisions that I work with.

Just my humble two cents.

[ashlee111]

I am new to all this. What does it mean when a publisher says he wants a final draft? My manuscript is complete and I put an Epilogue at the end of the story. I thought I was finished.:Smack: ashlee111

[pepperlandgirl]

I am new to all this. What does it mean when a publisher says he wants a final draft? My manuscript is complete and I put an Epilogue at the end of the story. I thought I was finished.:Smack: ashlee111

I don't understand your question.

If you're finished, the final product is the final draft. Don't send a novel to an agent or publisher unless it's completely finished--that includes tweaking and editing.

[ashlee111]

My novel is completely finished, but they sent me an email, stating that they were going to give me instructions for a final draft. That's what I do not understand, unless they did not read my book, completely?
ashlee111:Hammer:



I don't understand your question.

If you're finished, the final product is the final draft. Don't send a novel to an agent or publisher unless it's completely finished--that includes tweaking and editing.

[pepperlandgirl]

Oh, that means the novel is going to be vetted through the editing process, and they'll send you suggestions for revisions. Once it's cleaned up to their specifications and all shiney, that'll be the final draft.

[ashlee111]

I find that it does not take me that long, either. I like the MS WORD. I think MS Word is a great program, and I usually do my own editing. I just call it, editing. I don't think of it as drafts or revisions. I have done all of my correcting, editing, chapters, page numbers, and headers. I thank God for MS Word. It helps a lot, when it comes to writing. Especially if you get an editor who is not really going to edit your book that well. I am sure that the editors use MS Word, when they edit.

ashlee111



We all agree that a first draft is a story started from scratch on a blank page or new file. I've noticed that some writers call subsequent "drafts" what I consider "revisions." That is, when I use the word "draft," I mean starting from a blank screen or page, NOT a fresh copy of the first draft to rip apart and put together again. The latter is what I consider a revision.

With that in mind, how many drafts do you write for a novel? I'm particularly interested in those of you who've published traditionally. Do you write a first draft, revise it, edit it and call it done? Or do you write it from scratch more than once before you start the revision process?

I'm on the third revision of my third draft -- it's taken me that much time/effort to get the story right. Is this typical? I'm finding that most of the stories I write lately don't need that much work. I'm either improving or getting lazy. :D

[reph]

I am sure that the editors use MS Word, when they edit.
I always used a pencil.

[Torin]

I am new to all this. What does it mean when a publisher says he wants a final draft? My manuscript is complete and I put an Epilogue at the end of the story. I thought I was finished.:Smack: ashlee111

The final draft is what you have after you've revised, rewritten, thrown scenes out, added scenes in, cut extraneous debris, polished your writing, and made the manuscript the best it can possibly be. It doesn't mean what you have after you finish writing the story and type "The End" on the last page. That would be your first, or rough, draft.

Torin
thinking about the first revision of my next book

[maestrowork]

Final draft is the one you're going to submit -- and you're not going to keep tinkering with it. It's DONE. Final. Until an agent/publisher sign you up and ask you to rewrite.

Your final draft should be free of errors (so hire a copy editor if you have to).

[SRHowen]

I don't outline, I hate outlines, and I hate character charts and outlines even more. I start with a situation, and just write.

In truth, I try to get all the important major things, plot, story, characterization, right the first time through. I try to get them at least right enough so no major revisions are necessary. But when the first, longhand draft is finished, I do sort of a mini second draft as I enter it into the computer. This really amounts to making any minor changes that catch my eye.

When it's all in the computer, I go back to page one and do a polish draft. This is where I tighten sentences, rewrite the clunkers, sharpen dialogue, eliminate goofy words such as "that," "got," etc. When this is done, so am I.

That about sums up the way I write--maybe three drafts total.

Shawn

[Alphabeter]

For me, a new draft is warranted when major shifts occur: moving a scene, melding characters, altering a sub-plot.

A revision is altering sentences for clearer grammar, fixing a name so its consistent throughout the ms, checking for time shifts (it was 3 pm when they walked into the restaurant and 10 am when they walked out after an abbreviated 20 minute meal).

I don't number the drafts but I do add A, B, C, etc with the date. For example I may have SuperNovel verA 10405; SuperNovel verB 31905; SuperNovel verC 51105...

I also keep a corresponding paper log. So if I'm looking for when I merged Sam the bartender and Violet the barmaid into Sammie, I find that I decided whenever JoeHero got information in the bar both Sam and Violet were there and hence could be one person, it was during SuperNovel verB. Now I pull them apart again because Sammie can't go into the women's bath after JaneHeroine.

As to the how many question, I'll go with the simplest answer-as many as it takes. You might think you're done and then you makes changes after a few betas, more after your agent, more after the editor. But then you may consider any changes after it gets accepted as par for the course.

On a slightly related note, I like worldbuilding. I was giddy to discover that JK Rowling had all these notes on which students hated/loved each other over Quidditch rivalries-even though it will probably never see the light of publishing. I make loads of these types of notes. When I change one of them, I consider it a minor revision and lump it in with the latest draft unless of course I decide to dump Hermione into the HufflePuff house (as an example). That would be worthy of its own draft!

My $.02, YMMV.

[azbikergirl]

Worldbuilding can be a ton of fun when I get into specifics. Trying to build a world in generalities doesn't give me a good enough sense of things upon which to base my novel, and so I create characters with mini stories which build toward the Main Story I'm telling now. The mini stories may never receive mention in the Main Story, but they help me get it where I need it.

Sometimes a beta reader will ask why a character is the way he is, or how did he get that scar, etc. and I'll write the mini-story down for his/her amusement. Mostly, they're in my head.

[spacejock2]

To me, a new draft occurs when I print a hardcopy of the entire novel and go through it with a red pen, covering every page in scrawl. Then I enter the changes into the computer, move scenes around and write any new scenes my scribble created. Print, revise again. Each time I revise there's less scrawl, until I can read the entire manuscript without reaching for my pen.

If that's a draft, I did upwards of 25 drafts of my first novel. At least 15 of those were AFTER it was accepted by a publisher. The editor made a few suggestions, but they led to better and better ideas... you know the story.

The second book went through at least a dozen drafts, and I'm currently reworking the plot before the first rewrite. Then I'll do upwards of a dozen drafts.

I don't know, there's something about a thick slab of white pages and a nice red pen which I find irresistable. It's my favourite part: polishing and reworking sentences until I'm completely satisfied with the sound and rhythm of each and every one, including the way they fit with others in the same paragraph.

Of course, I could be editing the life out of the thing. Time will tell.

[LightShadow]

The final draft is what you have after you've revised, rewritten, thrown scenes out, added scenes in, cut extraneous debris, polished your writing, and made the manuscript the best it can possibly be. It doesn't mean what you have after you finish writing the story and type "The End" on the last page. That would be your first, or rough, draft.
This pretty much sums it up. Your book is a product, and you want to put the best product out on the market. No matter how you get to that point, it needs to be the best of what you put out, and will put out, should they decide to represent you.