Ending? What ending?

[Cranky]

I've finally figured out what the real problem I've been having with actually completing work. Novels, at least.

Endings. I have no bloody clue where my stories end. I can come up with the beginning and the middle, but as for the end? Nope. Nothing. Big blank screen.

Part of it is inner editor crap, but mostly it's just a lack of ideas. Yes. How lame.

Anyone got some good techniques for coming up with a good ending? Brainstorming doesn't seem to work for me (having that stupid inner editor which I've not yet been able to shut up doesn't help), and I run into the same problems with synopses and outlines, too. I get to a certain point where I just go, "Uh, so now what?"

Or is it just a fatal flaw? Is it something I should just "know" how to do? Stupid question, I know, but I am frustrated enough to not care about that. :)

[quickWit]

Whatever conflicts you have in your story need resolution of one type or another, right? Isn't that a good place to start? Identify what your conflicts are. If you've already resolved them (in your outline, synopsis or previous chapters) maybe you're A) Resolving them too early or B) Trying to make your work longer than it needs to be.

Don't know if that's what you mean, but that's where I'd start. :)

[Captshady]

That's my problem ... coming up with conflicts.

Example: A book about a bum, and his (hopefully) witty cynical observances of people sitting on a park bench in a downtown area.

I can't come up with a conflict (and hence an ending) to save my life.

[sunandshadow]

I also tend to totally lack ideas for endings. I've found two ways to cope: 1. Make a list of types of endings in others books so I at least know what my options are, then pick an example ending to emulate. 2. Write an ongoing story, one which isn't intended to end. If for some reason an ending is truly necessary later I can divide what I have written into appropriate lengths after something vaguely ending-like has happened and edit a bit to strengthen it.

[Prozyan]

Just write "The End" at some random point in the book. Really, any point will do. There is your ending.

Hey, you didn't say it had to be good!

Seriously, Kevin Smith has some good things to say about endings. His original ending for Clerks had some guy coming into the Quick Stop and killing Dante. He's said he wrote it that way originally because he didn't understand endings and thought they had to be . . . well, endings. But at test screenings, it played as too sad and depressing, especially in light of the rest of the film.

So he changed it and learned that an ending isn't necessarily the end of a character's story, but simply the end of all current conflicts.

[sunandshadow]

That's my problem ... coming up with conflicts.

Example: A book about a bum, and his (hopefully) witty cynical observances of people sitting on a park bench in a downtown area.

I can't come up with a conflict (and hence an ending) to save my life.

A conflict is anything any character is dissatisfied with. What's the bum not satisfied with? How about the people on the bench, what are they not satisfied with?

[zornhau]

That's my problem ... coming up with conflicts.

Example: A book about a bum, and his (hopefully) witty cynical observances of people sitting on a park bench in a downtown area.

I can't come up with a conflict (and hence an ending) to save my life.

Sorry. No conflict, no story... even short stories that seem to have no conflict are really conflicts between, e.g. reader expectation and what happens.

In a novel, conflict isn't something you just bolt on at the end, it's what sucks the reader into the novel so they can enjoy your cynical tramp.

Ways around the problem with respect to the tramp:

Tramp is player in somebody else's story: Real story is about somebody else. Tramp is a catalyst for the story, but for trivial reasons. Same sort of structure as the old Sam Spade stories.
Tramp as observer: The tramp tells somebody else's story.
Tramp as hero: Tramp faces some sort of external challenge and overcomes it.
Tramp as antagonist: Somebody tries to change the tramp

[Cranky]

Just write "The End" at some random point in the book. Really, any point will do. There is your ending.

Hey, you didn't say it had to be good!

:roll:


Seriously, Kevin Smith has some good things to say about endings. His original ending for Clerks had some guy coming into the Quick Stop and killing Dante. He's said he wrote it that way originally because he didn't understand endings and thought they had to be . . . well, endings. But at test screenings, it played as too sad and depressing, especially in light of the rest of the film.

So he changed it and learned that an ending isn't necessarily the end of a character's story, but simply the end of all current conflicts.

True enough. I'm thinking, after reading everyone's responses, that my problem isn't really the ending per se, but the conflicts or lack thereof, in my stories.

Good food for thought. :)

[kuwisdelu]

Ah, yes, the best thing to do is definitely identify your conflicts, if you haven't yet. If they're not obvious--and they don't have to be--figure out what they are. If they're not very existent, flesh them out. Endings are a lot easier once you know your conflicts. Still hard, but definitely easier.

[TurkeyLurkey]

Or you can just have your MC die. That will put an end to things.

[quickWit]

Or you can just have your MC die. That will put an end to things.

Not if it's a ghost story.

[Bubastes]

Yes, definitely work on the conflict end. That may solve your ending problem right there and also make the story more engaging. Two problems solved for the price of one. :D Good luck!

[Cranky]

Or you can just have your MC die. That will put an end to things.

Most definitely! :roll:

[Cranky]

Yes, definitely work on the conflict end. That may solve your ending problem right there and also make the story more engaging. Two problems solved for the price of one. :D Good luck!

Yes. Seems so obvious now, but wow, it was just sailing right over my head. Seriously. *headdesk*

Well, now I've got a place to start, and that's always a good thing. :)

[TurkeyLurkey]

I keep thinking about the ending of Return of the King. I thought the destruction of the ring should have been the final scene. (Although I know others would argue with me on this.) I think Tolkien just wanted to tie up some loose ends down in Hobbity land... but it made the ending too long. IMO.

[She_wulf]

That's my problem ... coming up with conflicts.

Example: A book about a bum, and his (hopefully) witty cynical observances of people sitting on a park bench in a downtown area.

I can't come up with a conflict (and hence an ending) to save my life.
A bum that makes cynical observances about people sitting on the park bench downtown...maybe a millionaire in disguise. I know, lame, right?

But think about this for a moment - his conflict is with "rejoining" the human condition since it seems to fail so often in his eyes, but the real conflict is within because he has failed to join.

A little deep, I know.

Something must force him to change. Either he joins or departs, moves on or remains. There has to be a moment where he is forced to act (perhaps witnessing a crime, or a person notices him and tries to change his plight) his resulting action or resistance is the story conflict. Bits and pieces of his personality are revealed by the observations of the passersby.

Just a thought.

[Prozyan]

I keep thinking about the ending of Return of the King. I thought the destruction of the ring should have been the final scene. (Although I know others would argue with me on this.) I think Tolkien just wanted to tie up some loose ends down in Hobbity land... but it made the ending too long. IMO.

Amen.

[kuwisdelu]

Or you can just have your MC die. That will put an end to things.

I do this too often. I need to force myself to write some stories where no one dies. It's not like I just kill them off for the sake of it. They're always meaningful, powerful deaths (I hope). It just seems everything I write ends in death...

I keep thinking about the ending of Return of the King. I thought the destruction of the ring should have been the final scene. (Although I know others would argue with me on this.) I think Tolkien just wanted to tie up some loose ends down in Hobbity land... but it made the ending too long. IMO.

The strange thing is I thought it worked pretty well in the book. The battle for the Shire wasn't even addressed in the movie, and yet the movie's ending felt like it dragged on way longer than the book.

[Cranky]

I've never yet brought myself to finish LoTR series. The movie ending dragged on and on, though. *shudders*

[Quossum]

^^^ Hear, hear! I liked the Cleansing of the Shire okay, but why did the movie, without including it, seem to go on and on?

A creative writing professor challenged us to write a story with no conflict. I tried, but I petered out on it because it wasn't good or interesting in any way. The other members of the class had the same experience.

When I'm in the planning stage, I often come up with a character first. "Okay, there will be this guy...he raises sugar gliders. Cool! Oh, wait...what's his problem?" That's where your conflict comes in, and thus your potential ending as the character struggles to solve it.

--Q

[TheIT]

So far I've reached an ending on two novel drafts and have three more which are incomplete. I don't outline. I began writing each draft with a starting incident, a strong idea of the main characters and where I wanted them to end up emotionally, a few ideas of later incidents, and that was it. I wandered a lot in the drafts as I got to know the characters and came up with new things to throw at them, then eventually something clicked and the ending came into sight.

Think about it like riding a roller coaster. A lot of the ride is spent moving up and up, sometimes plateauing, but always moving, until eventually there's nowhere else to go but down. Movement = conflict and problems to overcome. Ending = resolution to the main question/conflict of the story.

[Deccydiva]

I have the ending sussed the same day I have the beginning outlined, then I have the long slog of getting from one to the other. My novel now being queried has a twist at the end which still makes me fill up when I read it. It should have the reader laughing and crying at the same time; it also leaves the way open for a sequel :eek:
*perceives collective shudder*

[She_wulf]

I keep thinking about the ending of Return of the King. I thought the destruction of the ring should have been the final scene. (Although I know others would argue with me on this.) I think Tolkien just wanted to tie up some loose ends down in Hobbity land... but it made the ending too long. IMO.
I'll bring up the Mooby Burger counter debate: Film or book?
Randal Graves (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0026879/): If Peter Jackson really wanted to blow me away with those "Rings" movies, he would have ended the third one on the logical closure point, not the 25 endings that followed.

In book context, LOTR's ending revealed the culmination of a different conflict altogether. Frodo's internal conflict which developed as a result of carrying the ring for so long.

So what he returns to his hometown a war hero and kicks bad guy tail out of the Shire? So what he has finished his recounting of the tale? So what he has witnessed a new era of peace? He is PTSD and can never really go back to the beginning where life was stealing mushrooms from Farmer Maggot.

He cannot live with the results of his near ultimate failure. He has failed to redeem Smeagol, he failed to drop the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, and he failed to keep the Shire safe.

Although Tolkien did not detail Frodo's angst as the focus of the book, he showed it come to its conclusion. Which is where the story ends.

I feel he wanted to reinforce the notion that Happily Ever After doesn't necessarily happen for the wounded heroes. The king dies, Arwen fades in the mortal lands, Gandalf is gone. Even Samwise loses his best friend. War is like that.

[sassandgroove]

Anyone got some good techniques for coming up with a good ending?*lurking cuz I dunno either.*

[TurkeyLurkey]

I'll bring up the Mooby Burger counter debate: Film or book?


In book context, LOTR's ending revealed the culmination of a different conflict altogether. Frodo's internal conflict which developed as a result of carrying the ring for so long.

So what he returns to his hometown a war hero and kicks bad guy tail out of the Shire? So what he has finished his recounting of the tale? So what he has witnessed a new era of peace? He is PTSD and can never really go back to the beginning where life was stealing mushrooms from Farmer Maggot.

He cannot live with the results of his near ultimate failure. He has failed to redeem Smeagol, he failed to drop the ring into the fires of Mt. Doom, and he failed to keep the Shire safe.

Although Tolkien did not detail Frodo's angst as the focus of the book, he showed it come to its conclusion. Which is where the story ends.

I feel he wanted to reinforce the notion that Happily Ever After doesn't necessarily happen for the wounded heroes. The king dies, Arwen fades in the mortal lands, Gandalf is gone. Even Samwise loses his best friend. War is like that.

Exactly... which was why I felt so blue after reading it. I was emotionally invested in the characters, and when the story ended on a melancholy note... I felt bummed.

[TheIT]

The best technique I can suggest is "Just keep writing." Eventually something will show up.

And to quote LOTR: "Not all those who wander are lost."

For your amusement:

"Defined My Finish Line"
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35897

I tracked my progress through my first draft of "Shapes and Formalities" which clocked in at 148,000 words but was the first thing I wrote which actually reached an ending. I'm working on the revision now.

ETA: This one might be helpful, too:

"Stumbling Toward An Ending"
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54482

Good luck!

:Sun:

[Cranky]

Thank you! :)

[Clair Dickson]

This problem is actually a big part of the reason I started writing mysteries. For me, it made it easier, becuase the conflict that had to be solved was the same as the mystery that had to be solved. Set up the mystery, throw in a few characters, add some obstacles. Viola!

Doesn't make it easier to write the ending a climatic event, but at least I know where it is and generally what needs to happen.

[BlueTexas]

That's my problem ... coming up with conflicts.

Example: A book about a bum, and his (hopefully) witty cynical observances of people sitting on a park bench in a downtown area.

I can't come up with a conflict (and hence an ending) to save my life.


What's the bum's story? Figure out why he's on the bench, and I bet you can plot the end from there.

[AnnieColleen]

Yes. Seems so obvious now, but wow, it was just sailing right over my head. Seriously. *headdesk*

Well, now I've got a place to start, and that's always a good thing. :)


This is about where I'm at now -- with conflicts & endings both. So far I've got one unfinished and one finished novel draft with lousy or nonexistent endings, plus an outline that looks to be shaping up a lot better -- I hope!

Other things that seemed to help me (so far; results not guaranteed ;)) are thinking about the beginning, and how to mirror/echo/resolve it, and thinking about the theme, and how it should play out/resolve.

[ynoirb]

Or you can just have your MC die. That will put an end to things.

Unless they turn into brain eating zombies!

I had the same trouble with my first attempt at a novel - it was great, but there was no conflict, so really, nothing happened.

Then I came across this (http://www.hollylisle.com/fm/Workshops/conflict-workshop.html), which has given me a lot to think about.

[Liosse de Velishaf]

My method is to avoid writing the ending. I have stories with an ending I want but haven't written, stories that end like I wanted, and stories with no ending whatsoever... and I can't actually enjoy any of them. So I've ended up with a big pile of planned or half-written stories and no endings. I like to hope that if I procrastinate long enough, I might think of something.

[Jo]

I like to end the story where it started; to come back to the beginning, but with a renewed perspective.

[virtue_summer]

I have to say that if you have no conflict, I don't think you have a beginning either. Stories actually take off when the conflict begins and they end when the conflict is resolved in one way or another. If nothing changes for the character and there's no conflict at all, there's really no story to follow. I'd say work on your beginnings, figuring out what your characters are actually trying to do and what's keeping them from doing it. Maybe once you figure out the beginning, the middle and the end will come.

[Raphee]

In my WIP, I had a conflict but I faced the same problem: lousy and a cliche ending.
I tried What Ifs, gave different endings. Nothing worked.

Then I realised something that I knew was a problem, but I had no idea how to correct it. One of the MC's character was off mark. Totally.

I agonized over that for weeks and then realized how to correct it. Made the revisions to the middle; this then created a better conflict.
Then I found my ending.
It was like a domino effect.

Moral of the story, There is some flaw in your novel, either with conflict or characteriztion or plot.

[roncouch]

I'm writing my third novel, and have yet to figure out an ending. Because it's a trilogy, I intentionally ended the first two with a (to be continued) scenario. I tried to leave the readers with a degree of ending satisfaction, yet leave them open for a sequel. I suppose, in my case, I just don't want the story to end.

[smoothseas]

Whatever conflicts you have in your story need resolution of one type or another, right? Isn't that a good place to start? Identify what your conflicts are. If you've already resolved them (in your outline, synopsis or previous chapters) maybe you're A) Resolving them too early or B) Trying to make your work longer than it needs to be.

Don't know if that's what you mean, but that's where I'd start. :)


Rightly said....




from an old 'pantser' who's recently had an epiphany. Outlining does help!

[Elodie-Caroline]

My usual problem with endings is... I don't want the story to end. The characters still live on inside my head and I picture the future for them; I actually wrote a sequel for one of my novels because of this, but I love the sequel, so all wasn't in vain.

With the novel I am finely editing at the moment, I finished it on a channel ferry going from England to France, and my characters declaring their love for one another (after months of shagging). I did write a final chapter after this too, but that was just for myself, not for my readers. :D

So for myself, it's knowing where to end, not an actual ending :)


Elodie

[Death Bean]

*gives Cranky an emotional hug* I thought it was just me!! A rare something now is that I have two unfinished stories, and I know exactly how both of them will end. But as for everything else - pah. I think it's something to do with not wanting to stop writing the characters because it's so fun, like Elodie-Caroline said. I can see their pasts, presents and futures. Fairytales and fantasy is easier, because there are usually happy endings and a big battle. But I'm also doing a broad farce where they have a sporting competition with the enemies to settle their differences, but I know that's not where the story should end. It'd kind of an anticlimax after all the running about. Aack.

What I try and do to think up endings (though not for the farce, I'm putting that in a box) is watch lots of TV, preferably unpredictable shows, or dramas, and try and glean hints. Or put lots of bits of suggestions in bowls and pick one out of each. Like... HERO - DIES - IN - CANOE - DISASTER. Or, happy ending, HEROINE - TRIUMPHS - OVER - COURT CASE.

Not sure if that was any help, but as I said, I'm in just the same canoe - err, boat. :)

[Cranky]

Thanks, Death Bean, for the hug. :)

And yeah, there were definitely flaws with the books I was writing. *sigh* Big P.I.T.A. However, I have gotten some help with my newest idea, and I think this one should do okay. I already have an ending in mind, which is a nice change of pace! :D

Thanks, everyone, for all your help. This has been a very frustrating feeling, so it's good to know I'm not alone, and what the problems could be.

[SPMiller]

Wish I had poignant advice for you, but all I have is this:

If you can write the beginning and the middle, great, because in my opinion the middle is the toughest part. Assuming you've written them well, they're a logically-connected sequence of events not necessarily told in sequential order which relate an interesting story to your audience. That, to me, is the hardest thing about writing long fiction, and you've demonstrated you can do it.

If you were to approach the ending like me, you'd already have some vague idea of where you want your characters to be at the very end of the story. You wouldn't have any idea--yet--how to get there, but you'd have a process. And that is:

- Where am I now?
- Where do I want to end up?
- How do I get from here to there?

Then you start filling in the gap one step at a time, taking you from your current position in the plot ever closer to the ending you've envisioned. Do the exact same thing you did to get from the beginning to where you're blocked, by writing more logically-connected events. Before you know it, you've written the last sentence.

[Cranky]

Wish I had poignant advice for you, but all I have is this:

If you can write the beginning and the middle, great, because in my opinion the middle is the toughest part. Assuming you've written them well, they're a logically-connected sequence of events not necessarily told in sequential order which relate an interesting story to your audience. That, to me, is the hardest thing about writing long fiction, and you've demonstrated you can do it.

If you were to approach the ending like me, you'd already have some vague idea of where you want your characters to be at the very end of the story. You wouldn't have any idea--yet--how to get there, but you'd have a process. And that is:

- Where am I now?
- Where do I want to end up?
- How do I get from here to there?

Then you start filling in the gap one step at a time, taking you from your current position in the plot ever closer to the ending you've envisioned. Do the exact same thing you did to get from the beginning to where you're blocked, by writing more logically-connected events. Before you know it, you've written the last sentence.

That is very good advice, thanks! I do use that same technique a lot with writing shorter pieces (I know, weird), but I find that trying to think logically and sequentially is difficult for me when I'm stuck in the blahs. I overlook the obvious questions! LOL

It's good to be reminded that if it works for the first part of the book, it should work for the ending, too. Thanks muchly. :Hug2:

[SPMiller]

That is very good advice, thanks! I do use that same technique a lot with writing shorter pieces (I know, weird), but I find that trying to think logically and sequentially is difficult for me when I'm stuck in the blahs. I overlook the obvious questions! LOL

It's good to be reminded that if it works for the first part of the book, it should work for the ending, too. Thanks muchly. :Hug2:Oh good. I was worried it might seem condescending, but I also tend to seize up at the end of any fiction I write and I have to keep in mind that the ending is technically no different from any other part of the work.

[Cranky]

Oh good. I was worried it might seem condescending, but I also tend to seize up at the end of any fiction I write and I have to keep in mind that the ending is technically no different from any other part of the work.

Nope, not at all!

[~grace~]

Or you can just have your MC die. That will put an end to things.

or you can have everyone die! THE WORLD ENDS KABOOM!!! so it is logical for the story to end as well.


I keep thinking about the ending of Return of the King. I thought the destruction of the ring should have been the final scene. (Although I know others would argue with me on this.) I think Tolkien just wanted to tie up some loose ends down in Hobbity land... but it made the ending too long. IMO.

I actually stopped reading when the ring went into the thingy. I made an editorial decision for JRRT. I was like, "uhhh, why does this book keep going? we just won. whatevs, JRRT" and then I went on with my life. I still don't feel like I've missed much by skipping the return to Hobbitania.



I have to say that if you have no conflict, I don't think you have a beginning either. Stories actually take off when the conflict begins and they end when the conflict is resolved in one way or another.

I concur with this. The conflict, the change in an MC's life, is what STARTS the story. The End, to me, occurs when the MC returns to normalcy or creates a new normalcy.

[Judg]

Forgive me if I'm repeating what's been said, but this thread is getting really long...

To find conflict, think about your character. What does he want more than anything? What would he do to get it? What or preferably who is in his way? If he's not going after it, what could give him the kick in the rear to get moving?

What is he afraid of more than anything else? What or who could force him into confronting it?

If he's pretty much content with life as it is, what could mess that up? What would he have to do to get back to his contented life? How would he be changed by the process?

Desires, goals, obstacles - these are the ingredients of conflict. The more personal you make them, the better. It's harder to relate to abstract problems and impersonal obstacles. Not that it can't be done, but it's a higher bar to jump.

Have fun.

[Death Bean]

LOL grace!! I may employ THE WORLD ENDS KABOOM!!! a lot more in the future ;)

[MadScientistMatt]

My usual problem with endings is... I don't want the story to end. The characters still live on inside my head and I picture the future for them; I actually wrote a sequel for one of my novels because of this, but I love the sequel, so all wasn't in vain.

I had the exact opposite happen to me. The only time I've tried writing a full length novel, about 20,000 words into it, I realized one of the main characters was going to die because of emotions he carried around inside of himself. I even knew what his last words would be. He wouldn't live on. And with that, I had my ending.

[Priene]

I think Tolkien just wanted to tie up some loose ends down in Hobbity land.

I think it was a little more than this. The destruction of the ring was the climax of the series, but it wasn't the resolution. In many stories, the major conflicts get resolved in the climax only for the protagonist to experience an unexpected reversal. Think of Bunny-boiling Glenn Close jumping out of the bath when everyone thinks Michael Douglas has finished her off.

In LOTR, the reversal is Saruman turning up in the Shire. The hobbits and the reader are relaxing, thinking all the scary business is out of the way, and then trouble turns up again. This conflict gets done with quickly though - reversals don't usually last long - and then the story moves on to the resolution, which in this case is tying up loose ends in Hobbity land.

[Judg]

Orson Scott Card would take it even further. He argues that LOTR is a "milieu" story, where the world itself is top priority. The story isn't really over until Middle Earth ends when the last of the rings of power are carried away over the sea.

[Elodie-Caroline]

With the very first work I did, the first scene I wrote was the ending; my female got murdered to teach her man a valuable lesson. But when I had written the rest of it, I loved my female character and couldn't do it it to her, so i rewrote the ending hah! I know, I'm just a silly old softie at heart :D

I had the exact opposite happen to me. The only time I've tried writing a full length novel, about 20,000 words into it, I realized one of the main characters was going to die because of emotions he carried around inside of himself. I even knew what his last words would be. He wouldn't live on. And with that, I had my ending.