Time Travel

Moerae · Jul 28, 2008

So, (God, I start way too many sentences with that) I'm working on a new series idea. To put it most simply, it is about time travel.

I'm trying to have all of the temporal theory, rules, etc. make sense without going into an incredible amount of detail. When I think of time travel, by brain tends to immediatly go into super-Star-Trek mode, which generally ends up confusing me. I realize that it doesn't have to be as complicated as I'm making it, because the story is more fantasy than sci-fi, and so I don't have to have things make perfect sense scientifically.

Now I'm wondering, what are your favorite theories about time travel? What makes the most sense to you? What are your favorite books on the subject? Any advice for those of us who are trying to write it without giving ourselves a migraine?

Ruv Draba · Jul 28, 2008

I don't know that there's a 'most convincing theory' on time-travel, but most SFF readers don't seem too demanding unless you're trying to write hard SF.

People seem able to time-travel through black holes, wormholes, quantum effects, alternate universes, obscure ancient technology, faster than light travel, faerie abductions, magical beasts, mirrors, windows and portals, paintings, dreams, genies and other spirits, death, sleep, ancient sites, fervent wishes, pacts and deals, rituals and ceremonies, potions and unguents, jewellry and fetishes... just about anything sufficiently mysterious and symbolic can apparently bounce us around in time - and apparently all are acceptable in principle at least.

If you're interested in constraints, I made a list of possible teleportation constraints here, and many may apply to time travel.

Hope it's helpful.

Shweta · Jul 28, 2008

My favourite time travel novels, in no particular order, are:

Tim Powers, The Anubis Gates
Octavia Butler, Kindred
And argh, I can't name the third because it'd be a Big Honking Spoiler. Poke me in private channels if you want it.

So here's a ~~horrifying~~lovely little time travel short story instead: Lydia's Body by Vylar Kaftan.

These are all fantasy stories, and if you read 'em you'll see they're nothing like Star Trek. This is a good thing for a fantasy time travel story

So I'd say first plan is to read stuff & get a sense of the terrain you're covering.

Mumut · Jul 28, 2008

Are you travelling forward or back in time. If back, you probably need a feature, object or incantation that would have existed in the time to which MC is heading. I've used Stonehenge because it's well known the Victorians remodelled it considerably (see John Constables painting of 1835 and compare it with today). That's what was done between 1890 and 1916. So I have a good reason for someone to be standing on a really significant spot - the Victorians moved the protecting stones from it over a hundred years ago.

Moerae · Jul 28, 2008

Ruv: Thank you for the list, both actually. Now I feel a bit better about the oddness of my idea. :-D

Shweta: I'll have to check out those books. I do want to read a lot of books with a lot of different angles and ideas.

Mumut: It's pretty much going back in time, and then back forward to the origional time.

Hmm, I guess this is the point where I go into more detail about my idea.

I'm still working out the details about most of this, so please bear with me. :-D The basic plot is that a young woman is recruited into an organization that has existed for, well, a long time. Their sole purpose is to send people back in time to solve unsolved mysteries, mostly murders. Not really big ones that would change the world, but the lesser-known ones that pretty much everyone has forgotten about. The idea is that the fewer murderers that are left unpunished in the past, and thusly the fewer family and friends who are left wondering, the better the overall future of humanity.

Normal humans aren't actually able to go back in time themselves. The main fantasy element in my idea is that all of this is orchestrated by what are generally called 'time gods'. They are the ones with the ability to go back in time, as well as the ability to actually return to the time they left.

There are restrictions. The time god is only able to go back to a point in time within their own lifetime. They can only go through time, not space. They can only bring back something their touching, and if it's a human, only one who has a specific, and very rare gene (Which the previously mentioned MC has). It is possible for them to bring things back, but it the "field agents" are forbidden from bringing someone from the past into the future, or leaving anything from the future behind in the past.

Now that I have all that figured out, I'm trying to figure out all the more specific rules of time travel in this universe. I've pretty much decided that the time gods are invisible to everyone in the past except for any human that goes back with them, which is pretty much the reason why they need them in the first place. When they've travelled to the past, they essentially become like ghosts, possibly because they already exist in that time, and so they're a redundancy.

What about the humans? To what extent should they be able to change the past? How will my MC be able to effectively solve a mystery if she has to create a cover story every time? I suppose I could make her inhabit the body of someone already there, but would that be too Quantum Leap-y? I would totally go with that idea if I was sure that people wouldn't look at it and go, "Oh! She's trying to do Quantum Leap!" Of course, I could also just be paranoid and in need of sleep.

Actually, I think I'm going to stop rambling now and go do that. I apologize for the long post, I just felt the need to get all this written down. Please, please, please feel free to comment, critique, and suggest to your hearts content.

Albedo · Jul 28, 2008

I'm a lot more tolerant of grandfather paradox-violating time travel in fantasy than I am in SF. The movie Twelve Monkeys is one of very, very few examples of science fiction where the implications of time travel are handled correctly. The Terminator movies, on the other hand...terrible (though I love them).

Fantasy gets more leeway, because you can explain paradoxes away with magic.

Shweta · Jul 28, 2008

Ohhhh you might also want to read the Kage Baker Company novels. Sounds like an idea with connecting points to your own; yours is quite different but you want to be familiar with hers anyway, I think.

Plus I hear they're awesome.

Moerae · Jul 28, 2008

I understand their is a school of theory that even is someone did go back in time, that no matter what they did, time would eventually reach the same point as before. Like, if you killed every important figure in history, someone would take their place, and history would eventually end up being exactly the same as it is today. I'm not completely following that in my idea, but I do like to think of time as being a lot tougher than people give it credit for.

I agree. I love the Terminator movies too (Except for the third. How did a ten-year-old THAT COOL end up being an adult THAT WUSSY??!!), but I generally don't bother trying to figure out how any of it would make sense in actuality. I understand that the book/movie Timeline is similar.

Aaaand I was supposed to be sleeping. I'll just go... do that... now... right after an episode of some random Asian drama to help me sleep... right... that's it... :-D

Moerae · Jul 28, 2008

Shweta said:
Ohhhh you might also want to read the Kage Baker Company novels. Sounds like an idea with connecting points to your own; yours is quite different but you want to be familiar with hers anyway, I think.

Plus I hear they're awesome.

Taking note.

P.S. Funny, Iggles is one of the many nicknames I have for my cat. Her actual name is Agate a.k.a Aggy a.k.a Iggy a.k.a Miss Pomp-pomp etc.

Zoombie · Jul 29, 2008

This illustrates my main problem with all time travel stories.

Also its funny as hell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xkZhAtjT8U

Shweta · Jul 29, 2008

Oh, a really truly fun time travel story:

Wikihistory, Abyss and Apex, 4th quarter 2007

Oddsocks · Jul 29, 2008

I would say that the most important thing is to know what mechanics you're using, and to stick to them once you've decided.

For example, you could have branching timlines - you go back from time X to an erlier point in that timeline, H. you change something. Then, when you head forward again, you're heading forward on a timelline split from the original, and you end up in time X2 rather than time X.

Alternatively, you could just say that your actions in H have changed X, rather than holding that your characters are on a totally different time thread, but this can become paradoxical more easily - i.e. if a character prevents her own birth, you have a character without origins (or she disappears), whereas in the split timeline story, you can safely say that she came from a different timeline, which is unalterable. However, in the split timeline version, there may be an alternate version of the same character wandering around time X2 already.

Another theory of time travel is that it's all already accounted for. i.e. everyone who will ever travel to time H is already there in time H, their actions in that time are already taken into account in the state of the world at each subsequent time. So, for instance, the fact that the character was born means that any attempt that was actually made to prevent his birth just so happens to have failed. You can try - but your attempt is already a part of that time, and his existence ensures that it was/will be a failure.

I'm sure there are other ideas about time travel, but my point is that each of these three versions of what time is like will involve different treatments of actions carried out by characters in the past, so it's worth thinking about.

Hope that helps.

Kitty Pryde · Jul 29, 2008

"Cowl" by Neal Asher is a great book with a fairly unique time travel theory. It's an attempt to solve some of the problems with the idea of time travel. The basic theory is [very mild spoilers] that you can time travel and create alternate universes, and depending on what happens in them, the universes move up or down a probability slope. Some universes are easier to time travel out of than others. Super powerful civilizations don't want to get stuck in backwater universes/times. It makes more sense when you read the book. There is also a giant time travel machine creature that eats everybody.

"A Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury is my number one favorite time travel story. Go back in time, and you will totally ruin everything for everybody!

And then of course there's the Whoniverse, wherein you can meddle with the timeline all you want, even though you're not supposed to, and if you eff things up, The Doctor can put them right again.

Moerae · Jul 29, 2008

Oddsocks: Hmm, yeah, that's something I have to think about. Although I think I might be leaning more towards the Jasper Fforde method of just not explaining and letting the reader make up their own ideas of some things work. ;-)

Kitty Pryde: Thanks for the suggestions. I'll add them to my ever-increasing list.

benbradley · Jul 29, 2008

While definitely SF rather than fantasy, this short story "A Sound of Thunder" is definitely worth a read:
http://www.lasalle.edu/~didio/courses/hon462/hon462_assets/sound_of_thunder.htm
It's a somewhat famous story in SF circles. It was made into a movie a few years ago, but I never heard anything about it after it came out.

Kitty Pryde · Jul 29, 2008

benbradley said:
While definitely SF rather than fantasy, this short story "A Sound of Thunder" is definitely worth a read:
http://www.lasalle.edu/~didio/courses/hon462/hon462_assets/sound_of_thunder.htm
It's a somewhat famous story in SF circles. It was made into a movie a few years ago, but I never heard anything about it after it came out.

The story is 10 out of 10. The film is acceptable, I'd say 6 out of 10, but it can't really compare to the awesomeness of the story. It has good sci-fi-cheese appeal, if you're into that sort of thing. And Ben Kingsley! The Simpson's episode, Time and Punishment, based on the story though, pure cartoon gold!
BTW I'm quite shocked that the university is violating Ray's copyright by posting the story on the internet!

moderan · Jul 29, 2008

Bester's The Men Who Murdered Mohammed is an excellent story in this vein, as is the novel The Man Who Folded Himself by David Gerrold.

DraperJC · Jul 29, 2008

Good grief, I didn't see anyone mention the best time travel story of all times. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure! It's great, you can just go back in time to when you need something and hide it where you're standing right now. Just be sure to remember to do it after you beat all the bad guys, otherwise it won't happen.

Be careful of some of the human sides to the time travel issue. 1) Just like the argument against aliens, if it's possible to send people back in time, where are they? 2) Time travel, when invented, will be used to make killer stock trades or find better ways to market pornography. Either that or Taco Bell will buy the patent and open a restaurant from here to the Roman Empire.

dawinsor · Jul 29, 2008

Connie Willis's Doomsday Book is one of my alltime favorite novels. When I got to the last 50 pages, I literally could not put it down. I admit I didn't pay too much attention to the explanation of how time travel worked there, but as I recall she uses something from chaos theory.

Tom Johnson · Jul 29, 2008

Time travel is like teleportation. No science to it. Just twitch your nose. All of it is fun, but to give either scientific possibility is the same as traveling at light speed. Choose your own science folks. No one will know.

"The Weed of Crime Bears Bitter Fruit!"

Oddsocks · Jul 29, 2008

Moerae said:
Oddsocks: Hmm, yeah, that's something I have to think about. Although I think I might be leaning more towards the Jasper Fforde method of just not explaining and letting the reader make up their own ideas of some things work. ;-)

Absolutely!

I didn't mean that you need to be explicit about what kind of time mechanics you're using by explaining it to the reader - I just meant that it's something you want to think about, so you don't, for example, have someone changing the future at one point and then at another point run with the it's-all-already-accounted-for kind of scenario (which might leave the asking why they were able to change this event, when this other event was apparently locked in). It just helps to maintain internal consistency (which I think is potentially more difficult in time travel stories than in others).

This is the main thing that annoys me about doctor who (which is still an awesome show) - the fact that the doctor talks about fixed events that can't be altered, and yet not all events are like that - what determines whether an event is fixed or flexible? They can't save this one particular person because their fate is a fixed fact, yet in other episodes they can go about saving people all over the place in a whole range of times?

Moerae · Jul 30, 2008

Good grief, I didn't see anyone mention the best time travel story of all times. Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure!

Ah! Of course! One of my favorite movies of all time! Unfortunately, the temporal theory is somewhat... non-existent. :-D

Be careful of some of the human sides to the time travel issue. 1) Just like the argument against aliens, if it's possible to send people back in time, where are they? 2) Time travel, when invented, will be used to make killer stock trades or find better ways to market pornography. Either that or Taco Bell will buy the patent and open a restaurant from here to the Roman Empire.

Yes, see, this is why the organization that is doing all of this in my story is secret. That, and so they don't have to file taxes. Can you imagine the field day the IRS would have with that?

Also, it wouldn't be Taco Bell, it would be Starbucks.

This is the main thing that annoys me about doctor who (which is still an awesome show) - the fact that the doctor talks about fixed events that can't be altered, and yet not all events are like that - what determines whether an event is fixed or flexible? They can't save this one particular person because their fate is a fixed fact, yet in other episodes they can go about saving people all over the place in a whole range of times?

I think the idea I'm working with is that the only people who can travel through time, change time, and not be affected by changing the timeline, are either time gods, or those with the specific gene. They are also not allowed to try to do major alterations as they have a kind of 'higher authority' to answer to.

dmytryp · Jul 30, 2008

Harry Harryson has a great book involving time travel (though a bit old) -- "Technicolor the machine". It's about making a movie using time travel. Lots of fun

Smiling Ted · Jul 30, 2008

Moerae said:
I understand their is a school of theory that even is someone did go back in time, that no matter what they did, time would eventually reach the same point as before. Like, if you killed every important figure in history, someone would take their place, and history would eventually end up being exactly the same as it is today. I'm not completely following that in my idea, but I do like to think of time as being a lot tougher than people give it credit for.

You might be thinking of Try and Change the Past, a classic short story by Fritz Leiber. I highly recommend it.

THenry · Jul 31, 2008

"By His Bootstraps", Heinlein 1941, is an early example of a causality loop.

(A google search of the title turned up a copy.)

Time Travel

Moerae

Ruv Draba

Shweta

Sick and absent

Mumut

Well begun is half done...

Moerae

Albedo

Alex

Shweta

Sick and absent

Moerae

Moerae

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse

Shweta

Sick and absent

Oddsocks

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

Moerae

benbradley

It's a doggy dog world

Kitty Pryde

i luv you giant bear statue

moderan

Is odd, and works at it

DraperJC

dawinsor

Dorothy A. Winsor

Tom Johnson

practical experience, FTW

Oddsocks

Moerae

dmytryp

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

THenry