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HeronW
07-16-2008, 08:07 PM
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/16/kuntar-4-militants-now-in-lebanon/

Kuntar the terrorist is considered a hero for killing an Israeli father and an 4 year old child. Israel doesn't have the death penalty.
The terrorists return body parts of Israeli military people for their living 'heros' for two families who want to bury their sons in holy ground, i.e. in Israel. It's been known here that those two army men were deceased. Why release a murderer who will kill again? I just wonder if the iof those who want their children's bodies back ever think that by these sorts of deals with the devil that more parents will lose their children?

Robert Toy
07-16-2008, 08:12 PM
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/16/kuntar-4-militants-now-in-lebanon/

Kuntar the terrorist is considered a hero for killing an Israeli father and an 8 year old child. Israel doesn't have the death penalty.
The terrorists return body parts of Israeli military people for their living 'heros' for two families who want to bury their sons in holy ground, i.e. in Israel. It's been known here that those two army men were deceased. Why release a murderer who will kill again? I just wonder if the iof those who want their children's bodies back ever think that by these sorts of deals with the devil that more parents will lose their children?
I'm watching the "celebrations" going on in Lebanon, what a....

Never mind..Grrrrrrrrrr

icerose
07-16-2008, 08:50 PM
From what I understand, they didn't know the soldiers were dead until the exchange took place and the coffins were rolled out.

Robert Toy
07-16-2008, 08:53 PM
From what I understand, they didn't know the soldiers were dead until the exchange took place and the coffins were rolled out.
The government suspected that they were dead.

Today confirmed it.

ETA: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/29/israel.hezbollah/

icerose
07-16-2008, 09:00 PM
The government suspected that they were dead.

Today confirmed it.

ETA: http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/29/israel.hezbollah/

If I had been there, with a weapon handy and they rolled my husband's body out in a coffin for exchange for a live prisoner, with all the celebrations planned and everything, I would have drawn that weapon and shot the bastard right in the back of the head. One dead prisioner for another.

Bartholomew
07-16-2008, 10:04 PM
If I had been there, with a weapon handy and they rolled my husband's body out in a coffin for exchange for a live prisoner, with all the celebrations planned and everything, I would have drawn that weapon and shot the bastard right in the back of the head. One dead prisioner for another.

I'm afraid I'm with icerose.

The Israeli government should have waited to see if their soldiers were alive, and exchanged prisoners at the same time. With a firing squad on hand.

Robert Toy
07-16-2008, 10:08 PM
Unwritten rule/promise, we will always bring you home.

CACTUSWENDY
07-16-2008, 10:31 PM
When I heard this on the news in the wee hours today I was again hit with the same questions. My dead for your live ones? And so many for so few.

Things are done so different in that part of the world. I guess we will never know what all went on behind the scenes but still.....it sure does not seem right. Just my two cents.

Robert Toy
07-16-2008, 10:34 PM
Kuntar was greeted by the Lebanese president, and hailed a hero!

I think I'm going gag.

dgiharris
07-16-2008, 11:15 PM
I hate to say this,

But I remember as a kid wondering why it was that we could not get along as a people. Why did we have fights, murders, killings, and war.

As i've grown up, I've seen that the ability of man to 'think' is a double edged sword. On one hand, we can learn, grow, and uncover the 'truth' of life, the universe, and everything.

On the other hand, we can rationalize the insane and even control our perception and perspectives to the point where we see the world through a special filter that only reinforces our preconcieved notions.

In short, there are times when there is nothing you can do or say to change someones mind. What brilliant pearls of wisdom can you drop that will make a people understand that killing a innocent man and child is not cause for a hero's welcome.

What do you say when a people feels another group or class of people are no longer innocent, that the crimes of the past must be attoned for in present day blood, that they are all evil and need to be killed.

It is my feeling that the whole issue is beyond words, beyond logic, and that perhaps, the only true resolution will be found in a winner take all war to the point of genocide or complete and utter compitulation by the losing side. Which ever solution occurs first.

That is a serious statement and I do not make it lightly.

Shall we wait until both sides develop WMDs? The ability for the few to hurt the many increases exponentially as technology progresses. This madness has got to stop.

And I'm not talking about justice, morals, 'rights' or other such philosophical dribble.

I'm talking about survival. Pure and simple. And in matters of survival, there are no morals. Only life and death. I feel that is where this region and issue is and will always be. I'm not going for Israel. I'm not going for muslims. I kinda don't care. I just want this issue resolved and resolved forever as I'm starting to feel like it will impact 'my' survival within the next few decades.

thoughts?

Mel....

SpookyWriter
07-16-2008, 11:33 PM
thoughts?

Mel....You'd suspect Moses would pick better neighbors. But wasn't he led to the land of Israel by a divine hand. Maybe you should take up your questions with the big guy. I'm suppose he had his reasoning and I'd sure like to know what they were. Let me know what you find out. Okay?

Robert Toy
07-16-2008, 11:40 PM
The fucking nutter is on CNN live.

Why, oh why do I watch this shit?

dmytryp
07-17-2008, 12:57 AM
A couple of corrections:
The girl Quntar killed was four, not eight. The most heinous part was that he made her watch while he shot her father in the back as her last sight before he smashed her head.

There were heavy suspicions about the fact that the soldiers were dead. Their hummer provided a good illustration. The intelligence was presented before the head Rabb of the IDF in order to announce they were dead (before the deal was finalized).

This deal (and others silmilar) go to show how differently we and our enemies value life.

Here (http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/07/16/a-tale-of-two-cultures-samir-quntar-hero-or-monster/) is a blog post about the exchange with relevant links inside. The most interesting part of the post is the last two paragraphs:

Here is a piece from the point of view of some Lebanese (http://www.france24.com/en/20080710-what-political-future-last-lebanese-detainee-hezbollah-lebanon).
Now can someone explain to me why this latter piece is the product of France24 TV, and not Hezbullah TV?

SpookyWriter
07-17-2008, 01:24 AM
A couple of corrections:
The girl Quntar killed was four, not eight. The most heinous part was that he made her watch while he shot her father in the back as her last sight before he smashed her head.

There were heavy suspicions about the fact that the soldiers were dead. Their hummer provided a good illustration. The intelligence was presented before the head Rabb of the IDF in order to announce they were dead (before the deal was finalized).

This deal (and others silmilar) go to show how differently we and our enemies value life.

Here (http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/07/16/a-tale-of-two-cultures-samir-quntar-hero-or-monster/) is a blog post about the exchange with relevant links inside. The most interesting part of the post is the last two paragraphs:

Also Wednesday, a Red Cross tractor-trailer arrived in Lebanon carrying wooden coffins containing the bodies of Lebanese and Palestinian fighters. Part of the swap included Israel handing over the remains of some 199 fighters. The swap was lopsided no matter how many people died on either side, their age, or means of death.

donroc
07-17-2008, 03:04 AM
"To life", l'chayim, has been the eternal toast among Jews.

"Long live death" said a fascist general during the Spanish Civil war.

The same glorification of death as a way of life not only among Israel's enemies in the ME appears to be endemic among many Islamic cultures there even against themselves.

Williebee
07-17-2008, 03:36 AM
Just saw the news coverage on ABC.

Anybody else want to know what was really in the coffins?

Or am I just a conspiracy toting cynic?

dgiharris
07-17-2008, 04:54 AM
You'd suspect Moses would pick better neighbors. But wasn't he led to the land of Israel by a divine hand. Maybe you should take up your questions with the big guy. I'm suppose he had his reasoning and I'd sure like to know what they were. Let me know what you find out. Okay?

I think that is part of the problem, that is, everyone being on the side of god.

If god is with me, and I'm a child of god, doing god's will, then why do I need to listen to you? Why not just smite thee as god is obviously telling me that I should do.

And heaven forbid if you worship a different god.

I'll probably start a thread on this topic someday when I better formulate my thoughts. I'll just wait for the next one of these 'occurrences' to happen.

I won't have to wait too long.

I'm being very candid in my post, in short, what the hell do we, the region, and the world do about this?

Can anything be done? Or is this a blood fued that is best settled by turning the streets into red rivers?

Mel...

icerose
07-17-2008, 06:05 AM
Just saw the news coverage on ABC.

Anybody else want to know what was really in the coffins?

Or am I just a conspiracy toting cynic?

Well according to the report the doctors examined the bodies extensively to prove the identities of the two soldiers remains. If you're talking about a secret weapons trade, the last people they would come from would be Hezbullah.

Williebee
07-17-2008, 07:44 AM
Nah, I'm not thinking "secret weapons". I'm not thinking anything specific, other than, it seems like an awfully lopsided deal. Usually, when there is a deal that "off", there's more going on than the public gets to see.

kdnxdr
07-17-2008, 07:57 AM
Well, there's so many layers to the Middle East, ethnic/religious conflict, it's endless, literally.

According to scripture, the sibling rivalry between Abraham's sons, Issac and Ishmael was and is the seed of the Middle East issues, at least foundational to the issues.

I personally don't believe there is the possiblity of resolution. I consider Israel, and particularly Jerusalem, to be a kind of "timer" that is synchronizing all of world history.

But, that's all just my own take on things.

kid

Robert Toy
07-17-2008, 10:14 AM
Nah, I'm not thinking "secret weapons". I'm not thinking anything specific, other than, it seems like an awfully lopsided deal. Usually, when there is a deal that "off", there's more going on than the public gets to see.
Just for info, in 1985, Israel released 1150 prisoners in exchange for three Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon.

dmytryp
07-17-2008, 10:29 AM
Just for info, in 1985, Israel released 1150 prisoners in exchange for three Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon.
Yes, the infamous Rajoub deal. It started all these lopsided deals. The one several years ago, when we exchanged hundreds of prisoners for three bodies and one kidnapped drug dealer ex-colonel wasn't much better.

dmytryp
07-17-2008, 10:46 AM
An op-ed and reflections (http://www.theaugeanstables.com/2008/07/16/prisoner-swap-bolsters-hizbullah-endagers-idf-soldiers/#more-1395) about the swap.
Two notable quotes:

The world likely ignores the fact that Abbas, the man with whom Israel is supposed to negotiate some sort of peace, praised Kuntar as hero. Regardless of Abbas’ feelings for Kuntar, Abbas likely made the proclamation to bolster his image among Palestinians. But a leader who cannot even stand up to those celebrating a killer like Kuntar is not the man who can bring about peace between Israel and the Palestinians.


From Israel’s point of view, the remarks made by the March 14 leaders, while edifying, are of secondary interest. Israel has never placed a great deal of faith in either the intentions or the abilities of the individuals in question. Of greater importance, however, is the extent to which the prisoner swap is serving to strengthen Hizbullah. In so doing, it is delivering a very significant achievement to the movement, and to its regional supporters - Israel’s sworn foes - in Damascus and Teheran.

cethklein
07-17-2008, 03:06 PM
http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/16/kuntar-4-militants-now-in-lebanon/

Kuntar the terrorist is considered a hero for killing an Israeli father and an 4 year old child. Israel doesn't have the death penalty.
The terrorists return body parts of Israeli military people for their living 'heros' for two families who want to bury their sons in holy ground, i.e. in Israel. It's been known here that those two army men were deceased. Why release a murderer who will kill again? I just wonder if the iof those who want their children's bodies back ever think that by these sorts of deals with the devil that more parents will lose their children?

And yet all of this will be passed off as "fighting for liberation". These people want to know why the US supports Israel but not them, well here is the reason why. As wrong as Israel often is, at least they aren't mutilating people and dancing about it.

I'm afraid I'm with icerose.

The Israeli government should have waited to see if their soldiers were alive, and exchanged prisoners at the same time. With a firing squad on hand.

True but this incident hurt the terrorists more than anything. There will be no more such exchanges, that I can promise you.

dmytryp
07-18-2008, 01:42 AM
True but this incident hurt the terrorists more than anything. There will be no more such exchanges, that I can promise you.

Oh, I don't know. It depends who our pm is and what's his legal state.http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/images/icons/icon9.gif

The hero speaks. (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3569581,00.html)

Two very enlightning quotes:
My bold. The very guy we should be negotiating with.

"Believe me - anyone who thinks freeing the Shebaa farms or the (occupied) Lebanese lands will end this conflict is delusional."

Paraphrasing Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah's rhetoric during the war, Kuntar said: "We will not leave them alone and they will not leave us alone. Therefore, the objective of the resistance is the Shebaa farms, and what lies beyond the Shebaa farms. This must be clear."

And he is such a liar and coward:

"This morning I heard that the enemy has decided to assassinate me," Kuntar told the assembled crowd. "This enemy knows me well and I want to answer it with two sentences, like the Imam Hussein, may he rest in peace, said at the time: 'You threaten me with murder, when death is customary for us and a martyr's death is an honor from Allah?'
His readiness for martyr's death didn't stand in his way when he let himself be captured alive (knowing full well, he will not be harmed).

dmytryp
07-19-2008, 02:41 PM
Reactions (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3570116,00.html) to the deal in the US and British newspapers:
"There is something morally repulsive in the hero's welcome given the most famous – or notorious – of the Lebanese prisoners released by Israel," a Boston Globe article entitled "A strange kind of hero" said on Friday.



"This is the creature Nasrallah (http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/unescape(this.href))hailed as a resistance hero, the figure Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh called a 'huge hero who sacrificed 30 years of his life for the Palestinian issue,' the celebrity that Lebanon's president and prime minister saluted as a liberated freedom fighter."

And despite the pain, the brits have a point:
"Hizbullah, through war and abduction, has achieved the return of prisoners, which all the diplomatic leverage of the Lebanese leader Fouad Siniora has failed to do. This has implications for Hamas. If Israel is prepared to surrender Kuntar… in return for two corpses, what is the rate it is prepared to pay for Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier abducted by Hamas, who is still alive?"
And that's a big problem.