Profanity in YA writing

[Barb D]

OK, OK, I know how most of you feel about this. I've read enough threads here. But hear me out.

My two MCs are totally different, and are loosely based on real teenagers. They know they have characters based on them, and frequently offer advice about what they would and would not say.

One of them is my DD15, who is pretty fast and loose with her language. FWIW, I'm not, and she doesn't swear too much in front of me, but I know that she does with her friends (and she knows I know.) To make her realistic, I need to throw at least some "What the hell's" in there.

The other is my DNiece 16, who says "Oh my Gosh" because "Oh my God" is too profane. I had to hunt long and hard for even PG and PG-13 movies that she and her sisters were allowed to watch when they visited me. (Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants was out, because Bridget seduced the soccer coach, even PG-ly.) I want her to be able to read the book! Not only that, I want her sisters and her friends, who are similarly conservative, to be able to read the book.

I do respect my sister and her wishes very much, even though she does raise her children much more strictly than I do. OTOH, I want the book to accurately reflect the personalities of both girls. How to I balance this?

[Shady Lane]

You have to write the book honestly, even if some people wish that you wouldn't.

After my novella was released, my grandmother called, absolutely shocked that I used the word "fuck" something like sixty five times.

There will always be a niece, or a grandmother, or a critic or a book group or a country that has a problem with you writing honestly. And I know that it sucks when it's someone close to you, but if you start custom-making a book for them, it's just a downward spiral until your characters are apologizing to the audience every time they burp, you know?

[bethany]

OMG Shady, I LOVE that story! :D

Okay, here's what I firmly believe...be true to your characters. The minute you let someone in to your head while you're writing, whether it's the ALA, your boss, your daughter or neice (if the character does something they wouldn't like or embarassing) a grandmother, a mentor, whatever, the work WILL suffer. I would never base YA characters however loosely on real people for that reason. I typically put my characters in humiliating situations, though.

However, not everyone curses. I personally go through phases where I use very clean language. Followed by huge bouts of profanity. Mainly because I find profanity extremely amusing. If someone's language is very guarded, it's probable that they will sound weird when cursing, like awkward. So I obviously don't think both of your characters have to use profanity, but try to reflect it accurately as you can. For the most part we don't miss it when it isn't there, and we don't notice when it is, unless particularly shocking or out of character.

[Barb D]

So I obviously don't think both of your characters have to use profanity, but try to reflect it accurately as you can. For the most part we don't miss it when it isn't there, and we don't notice when it is, unless particularly shocking or out of character.

I definitely don't have both of them using it. In the same situation I have Polly say "What the hell" and Joy say "OhmyGosh". But truly, Polly would probably say something even stronger than that. I feel like I'm pushing it even with "hell" though. (I have a damn in there too.) Like I said, I want them to be allowed to read it!

[bethany]

Pushing what, though? What your sister will let her read? I don't think you'll find much success if you write thinking about one conservative family member, and remember, even if you have great success, write fast, get an agent, sell quicky, you are looking at at least 2.5 years. How old will this girl and her friends be in 2.5 years? Will their mamas still be vetting their reading material?

[Barb D]

Pushing what, though? What your sister will let her read? I don't think you'll find much success if you write thinking about one conservative family member, and remember, even if you have great success, write fast, get an agent, sell quicky, you are looking at at least 2.5 years. How old will this girl and her friends be in 2.5 years? Will their mamas still be vetting their reading material?

DNiece16 is the 4th of 10 children. My sister has a lot of vetting ahead of her. :)

ETA: Let me say again that I love and respect my sister. Her kids are awesome and wholesome, and I adore them all. Please don't take this as something negative about them.

[rugcat]

After my novella was released, my grandmother called, absolutely shocked that I used the word "fuck" something like sixty five times.Well I'm shocked, too. I think I used that word twice in my book. Helps keep it heartfelt.

Of course, my first book was a police procedural/thriller and I used it so many times I lost count. I was actually a bit shocked when I read the final draft and saw how many there were.

But if your dialogue is meant to be realistic, and your characters are cops, bikers, dope dealers and psychopaths, it's hard to avoid sprinkling it in like popcorn.

[Shady Lane]

I just went back and find/replaced it...28 times.

My characters are teenagers stuck on an island. They get mad.

[Fillanzea]

Some authors write very clean books where the characters swear... but not in the actual text. See Stephanie Tolan's "Surviving the Applewhites": Jake swears a lot, but we as readers only hear that he says a word that in the vocabulary of the family parrot (who used to belong to somebody foul-mouthed, I guess - I don't recall the book that well.) In my own novel, I have one or two f-bombs, but also "Heather swore with astonishing creativity," because I don't have astonishing creativity in the realm of swearing and I wanted to leave that to the imagination.

So that is one possible situation, but it gets to feeling artificial very fast. "Surviving the Applewhites" was a middle-grade, not a YA, so it was probably the best alternative to having Jake swear in the text, but I'm not generally a big fan of it.

It's a bit of an impasse. I hope you can find a way to make it both realistic and acceptable to your niece and your sister... but I don't see how. If it were my choice to make I'd keep the cursing in, and that wouldn't be anything negative about your sister or her child-raising or her family, it's just the way it would be. And if you decide the opposite way, I think that's fine too. But I think it might be a time when you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[mirrorkisses]

My novel has a lot of cussing... Because I cuss a lot. The girls who hang out in "alternative" groups, like punk rockers, cuss a lot because they hang out with mostly men (which is my experience). So, I actually had to tone down some of the language for YA. It's not like I didn't say things like that as a teen, but there was some toning down to do. Although the character still says it in front of her parents (which I did as a teen).

Anyway, the BIGGEST cuss word said in my novel is "cock". I'm not sure how agents will react to it, and I thought about cutting it, but then I thought about the situation. The girl is completely drunk, and she's confronting a guy she really hates. Of course she's going to come right out and say something like that. So I kept it.

I think you need to look at your book and how it fits in with the whole story. Don't worry about others while you're writing it, because only you know what is best.

Also, I wrote a sex scene in my novel knowing full well my mom would read it during editing stage. My mom actually said it turned her on! (a little embarrassing for both of us.) My dad will most likely read the story, and I don't like to think he's going to read about that sort of stuff from his daughter, but I can't worry about that. Now my 86 year old grandmother.... She will not be reading my novel.

[Fillanzea]

Hey, I've seen "cock" in books for the under-5 set!



....Okay, so they were talking about roosters ;)

[JoNightshade]

Suggestion: Write the book with the swearing, as it ought to be.

When you share it, make an edited version for your more conservative family members. You can do this very easily on Lulu.com. That should make the parental censors happy.

(Although if it was me, I'd be sneaking that kid all sorts of profane material. Geez. I'm a so-called "conservative Christian" and I think one of the worst things parents can do to their children is censor all profanity and sex. It leaves them weak and unable to deal with such things in the real world. It frequently also has the effect of making them ashamed of their sexuality.)

[Shady Lane]

Suggestion: Write the book with the swearing, as it ought to be.

When you share it, make an edited version for your more conservative family members. You can do this very easily on Lulu.com. That should make the parental censors happy.

(Although if it was me, I'd be sneaking that kid all sorts of profane material. Geez. I'm a so-called "conservative Christian" and I think one of the worst things parents can do to their children is censor all profanity and sex. It leaves them weak and unable to deal with such things in the real world. It frequently also has the effect of making them ashamed of their sexuality.)

I agree with all of this (except that I'm a commie Jew, but whatevs)

[Toothpaste]

You have to write your book and not worry about what others think. As nice as it would be for your niece to be allowed to read the book (and trust me, if she isn't, she will still probably find a way), are you writing the book for her or for a wider market?

I wrote a play several years ago. One character dropped the f bomb ALL the time. I don't even know how many times. It was how he spoke, his character trait. My mother read the play, said she liked it, but, as I was already aware, the swearing did jar her a bit. She didn't tell me to change it, she knew it was a taste thing. When she saw the play she came up to me after and told me how different it was to watch it. She then understood how it was just the way the character spoke, that it wasn't a big deal for him to say the word, and the way the actor delivered the lines so casually, she found that it didn't really bother her.

Anyway, not sure what my point was with that. I guess the first point was that I wrote the play I wanted to knowing my mom wouldn't like the swearing. And the second point was that sometimes the f bomb doesn't need to be a big deal. A special word used in the book to signify something truly awful. It can also be a character trait, it can demonstrate the kind of people who are talking that they use it that casually.

[Barb D]

Suggestion: Write the book with the swearing, as it ought to be.

When you share it, make an edited version for your more conservative family members. You can do this very easily on Lulu.com. That should make the parental censors happy.

Oooh!! I didn't know about this! I'll have to check it out!


(Although if it was me, I'd be sneaking that kid all sorts of profane material. Geez. I'm a so-called "conservative Christian" and I think one of the worst things parents can do to their children is censor all profanity and sex. It leaves them weak and unable to deal with such things in the real world. It frequently also has the effect of making them ashamed of their sexuality.)

DS17 offered to show me the "code" for profanity using symbols. Apparently that way those "in the know" would know what it meant.

And he's a good Christian kid (unlike his heathen sister :) ).

[JoNightshade]

Just as an aside, I have no clue what your abbreviations for your relatives mean. DS17 means... something son, 17 years old?

[Barb D]

Just as an aside, I have no clue what your abbreviations for your relatives mean. DS17 means... something son, 17 years old?

Sorry; these are pretty standard on several other boards I'm on.

DS17 is my Dear Son, 17 years old.
DD15 is my Dear Daughter, 15 years old. (I also have a DD8)
DH is my Dear Husband, and I'm his DW.

And this is my 50th post, so I get to go make an Avatar!

[Barb D]

And this is my 50th post, so I get to go make an Avatar!

Or maybe not. Let's try 51...

ETA: Apparently it just took a while for the server to catch up. And she has an avatar!

[Nakhlasmoke]

Hmm I feel for you in a way, but I say go with realism over conservatism.

My mother hates swearing. Loathes it. I think I drop the f-bomb over 70 times in my YA. (it's longer than Shady's though, so take that fwiw) She started reading said novel and I asked her about the swearing. She said that it was very believable and she understood why I did it. *shrug*

Loads of people are going to hate you for whatever they want to, ignore it and go with your gut. I have to say though, I always find it amusing when i see Americans think hell is a swearword.

[Dana-Lynn]

Barb, I like what others have said about writing it honestly the way YOU and your characters (which may be more important) feel the most comfortable with. And then you can always go back and creat a cencored version for your more conservative family memebers after that.

That sounds like a plan and a half.

:Sun:

I have to say though, I always find it amusing when i see Americans think hell is a swearword.

Does that mean hell is not considered a swear word where you are from? (Where ARE you from? lol)

:D

Actually, it is only a swear word here in the US when it's used in a swearing kind of context. ;) Telling someone to go to hell is considered cussing here. What the hell is, too . . . It hurt like hell . . . Where the hell have you been . . . etc., etc. When you use the word like that, it's considered a swear word in the US.

If you're just giving references to Heaven and Hell, it's not.

I'm curious, is it not like that where you come from?

:)

[Nakhlasmoke]

Does that mean hell is not considered a swear word where you are from? (Where ARE you from? lol)

:D

Actually, it is only a swear word here in the US when it's used in a swearing kind of context. ;) Telling someone to go to hell is considered cussing here. What the hell is, too . . . It hurt like hell . . . Where the hell have you been . . . etc., etc. When you use the word like that, it's considered a swear word in the US.

If you're just giving references to Heaven and Hell, it's not.

I'm curious, is it not like that where you come from?

:)

Haha go to hell might be considered rude because of the sentiment, but not for the use of the word hell.

nope, it's just not a swearword where I'm from. (South Africa)

[elissa]

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone have the experience of writing a YA manuscript and then having an agent or editor request for you to tone down the language? How much does the language affect marketability?

I'm on my first draft, and I've mainly just said I'm going to write what the characters would say and not worry about it until editing, but there are times when it's a little easier to reconstruct what I'm saying instead of later going back and trying to put in a "cleaner" word. My thought is that words like "damn," "hell," and even "bitch" are not even on the radar as profanity anymore. They're on prime time television and radio--granted, not for kids, but certainly for teens.

(Btw, my MC has said "fuck" once so far...other than that, it's pretty tame.)

[Nakhlasmoke]

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone have the experience of writing a YA manuscript and then having an agent or editor request for you to tone down the language?

...

Nope. I was slightly concerned about it, but even when I got my revision letter there was no mention made. I took some out anyway. :D

I think it also depends what age you're aiming it at - higher end of YA will probably have less issues with swearing.

[bethany]

I censor myself on the boards miuch more than in the book (job hazard :))

In the editing process with Delacorte/Random House I think I lost all the f-words referring to sex. As in, did you f- her? A question which was never really resolved, btw (though she's pretty sure he got some oral while they were broken up). In copyediting most incidents were questioned. But my editor statted them. Even the word lesbo was questioned as offensive- my editor noted not pc but realistic.

[elissa]

Nope. I was slightly concerned about it, but even when I got my revision letter there was no mention made. I took some out anyway. :D

I think it also depends what age you're aiming it at - higher end of YA will probably have less issues with swearing.

Well, that's cool. My MC is almost 16, so I'd expect my audience to probably start around 13 or 14, but in my experience most kids that age are doing a fair share of "adult" reading as well, like King, Koontz, Dan Brown, etc. It's not like they're innocents, after all.

I censor myself on the boards miuch more than in the book (job hazard :))

In the editing process with Delacorte/Random House I think I lost all the f-words referring to sex. As in, did you f- her? A question which was never really resolved, btw (though she's pretty sure he got some oral while they were broken up). In copyediting most incidents were questioned. But my editor statted them. Even the word lesbo was questioned as offensive- my editor noted not pc but realistic.

Interesting about "lesbo." My book has some homosexuality themes (MC is a bit homophobic but finds out two of his mentors are lesbians), and I wonder a little about how far to go with the language. The group of guys in my group regularly insults one another using the word "homo," so whatever.

Nice to see that the language isn't preventing agenting/publication, though it may provide some discussion during editing. Thanks for giving your experiences!

[timewaster]

Generally YA writers do not attempt to replicate real teenage language.
1. It dates.
2. It is hard to replicate and getting it wrong looks v sad
3. It limits your audience
4. It is different in different places.
5. It would be incoherent, repetitive and would not read well because real life speech is like that.

I wouldn't try to emulate the exact words any teen uses but try to find the rhythm
of the words, the phrasing - put something else in space of an f word so you keep the rhythm If you look at published work there is rarely a great deal of profanity, or current slang. You don't need it.
( I often use made up profanity but I write fantasy so that's OK)

[bethany]

Well, that's cool. My MC is almost 16, so I'd expect my audience to probably start around 13 or 14, but in my experience most kids that age are doing a fair share of "adult" reading as well, like King, Koontz, Dan Brown, etc. It's not like they're innocents, after all.



Interesting about "lesbo." My book has some homosexuality themes (MC is a bit homophobic but finds out two of his mentors are lesbians), and I wonder a little about how far to go with the language. The group of guys in my group regularly insults one another using the word "homo," so whatever.

Nice to see that the language isn't preventing agenting/publication, though it may provide some discussion during editing. Thanks for giving your experiences!

I'd be as realistic as possible, both with sentiments and language.

[Pup]

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone have the experience of writing a YA manuscript and then having an agent or editor request for you to tone down the language? How much does the language affect marketability?

--Raises hand--

Just sent to my agent a first person YA manuscript from the viewpoint of a 19th homeless boy who occasionally had worked as an underage prostitute prior to the start of the novel.

I tried to minimize the swearing, but my agent said she wanted a lot of the fucks removed (referring to sex; it wasn't really used as an all-purpose random swear word then). A couple cocksuckers and pricks were okay, but not too much. Hell, damn and son of a bitch weren't a problem. Racist words, in general, were okay; one anti-Jewish slang phrase wasn't.

Her reasoning was that editors would balk and some of his flashbacks (literally and literarily!) were pushing it already and needed eased up a little too. I had no problem cutting back as she suggested. It really didn't affect the tone of the book, because his attitude still came through.

[Shady Lane]

Not to hijack this thread, but does anyone have the experience of writing a YA manuscript and then having an agent or editor request for you to tone down the language? How much does the language affect marketability?

I'm on my first draft, and I've mainly just said I'm going to write what the characters would say and not worry about it until editing, but there are times when it's a little easier to reconstruct what I'm saying instead of later going back and trying to put in a "cleaner" word. My thought is that words like "damn," "hell," and even "bitch" are not even on the radar as profanity anymore. They're on prime time television and radio--granted, not for kids, but certainly for teens.

(Btw, my MC has said "fuck" once so far...other than that, it's pretty tame.)

I had one agent tell me, as a side-note to a rejection, "You may want to tone down the cursing." But it definitely wasn't a revise-and-resubmit kind of rejection.

I also was told I should make my main character a girl. When the entire book depends on him representing Gabriel in a biblical allegory.

People say silly things sometimes.

[elissa]

II also was told I should make my main character a girl. When the entire book depends on him representing Gabriel in a biblical allegory.

People say silly things sometimes.

Ha! Maybe one of those, "A girl can't write a book about boys" kinds of viewpoints...S.E. Hinton style?

[Shady Lane]

Ha! Maybe one of those, "A girl can't write a book about boys" kinds of viewpoints...S.E. Hinton style?

That's what I'm thinking...

but dude, if someone thinks I can't write about boys, they should try my girls on for size.

**shudder**

[elissa]

I censor myself on the boards miuch more than in the book (job hazard :))

...



I didn't get the "job hazard" part until I looked at your web site (which is nice, btw) and saw that you teach. I am teaching m.s. right now, and it has crossed my mind to think about what my students and their parents, as well as my administrators, etc. will think about the events in my book. Drug use, for example, that maybe seems a little too realistic. M.S. is a bit different from H.S., but have you run into any discomfort in that arena? (And sorry again, Barb, for derailing this thread!)

[elissa]

That's what I'm thinking...

but dude, if someone thinks I can't write about boys, they should try my girls on for size.

**shudder**

Yeah, and I guess all those sci-fi/fantasy people are just out of luck 'cause how can a human possibly write like an elf or an alien?

LOL about the girls. No purses full of lipstick and heads full of hip-hop lyrics?

[mirrorkisses]

But my editor statted them.

stet, not stat.

My mother was the one who told me to tone down my swearing. Even though my mom was in college during the 60's, she still thinks that cussing makes a girl look unattractive. Even though she cusses plenty, but my having hung out with mostly men for the majority of my life has made me cuss like a sailor (for lack of more creative terms). My mom didn't like how much my MC cussed, and I explained to her that girls in alternative groups tend to cuss and tend to act more like men. But I still toned it down anyway.

My dad also told me that there's more than one word for sex than fuck. But these are teenagers here. They're not going to say "making love" and crap like that.

[bethany]

stet, not stat.
.
quote]

Um, okay, I guess my ed's handwriting is a bit unclear on the a's and e's. I'd never heard that term before copyedits.

[quote=elissa;2544960]I didn't get the "job hazard" part until I looked at your web site (which is nice, btw) and saw that you teach. I am teaching m.s. right now, and it has crossed my mind to think about what my students and their parents, as well as my administrators, etc. will think about the events in my book. Drug use, for example, that maybe seems a little too realistic. M.S. is a bit different from H.S., but have you run into any discomfort in that arena? (And sorry again, Barb, for derailing this thread!)

Okay, this is kind of hard to answer because it changes on a daily basis.

As for the writing, I don't consider what ANYONE will think about me. Not my mom, my mom's minister, my boss, my much younger little brother...
Now that the book is a few months from coming out. Yeah, I worry a little :). There was a moment after I got the advanced reader's copy when I was like omg, parents are going to read this.

One thing I did is change my name. I never intended to take my husband's last name, and he was a little freaked out by it, but two years ago I did. Puts a little separation between me and the book which IS under my maiden (real) name.

I do plan to put it on the reading list for my YA literature class, but there will be some 50+ other choices on the list.

I teach in a conservative area. We'll see how it goes. :D

[Shady Lane]

Mostly off-topic, but my characters never use "fuck" to mean sex unless they mean like dirty, completely tasteless sex. Probably because it seems like such a more vulgar term used that way, in my opinion, then when you're just throwing around--to quote Dreamer--like a comma.

[elissa]

[quote=mirrorkisses;2545001]stet, not stat.
.
quote]

Um, okay, I guess my ed's handwriting is a bit unclear on the a's and e's. I'd never heard that term before copyedits.



Okay, this is kind of hard to answer because it changes on a daily basis.

As for the writing, I don't consider what ANYONE will think about me. Not my mom, my mom's minister, my boss, my much younger little brother...
Now that the book is a few months from coming out. Yeah, I worry a little :). There was a moment after I got the advanced reader's copy when I was like omg, parents are going to read this.

One thing I did is change my name. I never intended to take my husband's last name, and he was a little freaked out by it, but two years ago I did. Puts a little separation between me and the book which IS under my maiden (real) name.

I do plan to put it on the reading list for my YA literature class, but there will be some 50+ other choices on the list.

I teach in a conservative area. We'll see how it goes. :D

Will you say, "And on the third page of the list, is this book I wrote..." or not tell them at all?

[bethany]

[quote=bethany;2545060]

Will you say, "And on the third page of the list, is this book I wrote..." or not tell them at all?

Oh, they all know. I mean, as far as my regular English II kiddos, I taught them in 8th grade when I actually sold the book, and then I moved last year to 10th. They have a mention in the acknowledgements, and a good many of them are my friends on myspace.

My literary club raffled off an ARC to raise money for their own lit mag last year. So yeah, there's no hiding it. And I don't want to. I got a huge boost in credibility as a writing teacher from the whole thing. Most of them have an idea that it's WAY dirtier than it is. :D

[mirrorkisses]

Mostly off-topic, but my characters never use "fuck" to mean sex unless they mean like dirty, completely tasteless sex. Probably because it seems like such a more vulgar term used that way, in my opinion, then when you're just throwing around--to quote Dreamer--like a comma.


Well, I guess it depends if you've had a good fuck before. :D

[Shady Lane]

**tapes her mouth shut**

[bethany]

Well, I guess it depends if you've had a good fuck before. :D

This is an pretty offensive thing to say to a 17 year old. Which is not to say that our Shady is well versed or not well versed in the world of sexuality. She can certainly write a good sex scene. But still... (and yes, I just said that in teacher-voice :))

[~grace~]

ok.

this is my answer for every single writing question, but I think it applies especially well here.

do whatever fits the story. whatever fits the characters. write for the story, not for someone else.

I used to write with the niggling thought in my head, "oh god what is my mother going to say when she reads this?" but now I'm writing for me and for the story, and everything is so much better.

I know that because you're basing a character on her you'll want her to read it, but think about what's best for the story and do that.

[mirrorkisses]

This is an pretty offensive thing to say to a 17 year old. Which is not to say that our Shady is well versed or not well versed in the world of sexuality. She can certainly write a good sex scene. But still... (and yes, I just said that in teacher-voice :))

I didn't know she was seventeen! oops! hehe! I was just kidding around anyway. :tongue