PDA

View Full Version : California mandates car dealers to display a "Green Score" sticker on all 2009 models


Plot Device
07-11-2008, 02:01 AM
Your car will have a sticker that tells everyone how "green" the vehicle is (or isn't).


http://www.gantdaily.com/news/11/ARTICLE/24927/2008-07-08.html

California Has New Green Requirement For Car Sellers


July 8th, 2008 - Vittorio Hernandez - AHN News Writer

Los Angeles, CA (AHN) - Beginning on Jan. 1, 2009, all new vehicles sold in California must have a window sticker that indicates the car's global warming scores.

The score ranges from 0 to 10 to tell how much smog and greenhouse gas the auto releases in the environment. Ten is the highest score and zero the lowest.

A Honda Civic hybrid has a 9 score for smog and 10 for greenhouse gases. The Ford E-250 Econoline van got a very low 1 on both categories, while Toyota's 4Runner scored 5 for both categories.



Some critics say this will set people up for public ridicule by neighbors or even total strangers in parking lots, exacerbating the already growing public resentment of people who drive SUV's.


http://www.accuweather.com/mt-news-blogs.asp?partner=accuweather&blog=Thirty7below&pgurl=/mtweb/content/Thirty7below/archives/2008/07/my_global_warming_score_is_a.asp


My Global Warming Score is a...

Monday, July 07, 2008 12:01 PM - by Carl Schaad

And I also wonder: Is this the first step to eventually requiring a sticker on your car
after you've bought it, in order to shame you into better, greener habits? "Look,
Mommy, that bad man is driving a 2! Boooo! Bad man! Why do you hate your planet so much?"





.

blacbird
07-11-2008, 02:04 AM
I'm still lobbying for my obligatory specialized license plate for cell-phone violators, that says in bright bold letters, "IMBECILE".

caw

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 02:06 AM
Isn't that a sticker on a new car so people are made aware, not to be kept on the car.

That would be like keeping the price sticker on the window.

Bubastes
07-11-2008, 02:08 AM
Isn't that a sticker on a new car so people are made aware, not to be kept on the car.

That would be like keeping the price sticker on the window.

That's what I thought too.

Plot Device
07-11-2008, 02:10 AM
Let me double check, guys.

I'm pretty sure the OTHER articles I read (before settling on these two) said it goes next to your license plate. Like ... permanently.

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 02:10 AM
Let me double check, guys.

I'm pretty sure the OTHER articles I read (before settling on these two) said it goes next to your license plate. Like ... permanently.
That would be the pits.

kuwisdelu
07-11-2008, 02:14 AM
I think it's a good thing. Permanent would be better, IMO. After all, people who bought gas-guzzlers before 2009 won't have the sticker. Hopefully, this would reduce such cars only to the people who really need them.

Bubastes
07-11-2008, 02:15 AM
So far, all the news articles I've seen indicate that it's a new car sticker. I believe it incorporates the smog score that already exists on new car stickers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25284062/

Plot Device
07-11-2008, 02:16 AM
Okay, all you Brits out there, help me out ....


THIS article is the only one that mentions the license plate. The newspaper in question is The Independent. Are they a reputable paper, or a rag with a history of sloppy journalism?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/california-to-shame-the-owners-of-gasguzzlers-862971.html

California to shame the owners of gas-guzzlers

Wednesday, 9 July 2008 - By Guy Adams in Los Angeles



As if sky-rocketing petrol prices weren't already hurting them enough, the drivers of America's fleet of Hummers, monster trucks, and gas-guzzling SUVs are about to suffer sustained public humiliation, courtesy of the green lobby.

The state of California has announced plans for all new vehicles to carry "global warming" stickers next to their number plate, giving car owners – and their fellow motorists – an instant assessment of their carbon footprint.

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 02:23 AM
Here is a more detailed account:

http://www.climatechangefraud.com/content/view/1512/218/

donroc
07-11-2008, 02:31 AM
The first real nanny state?

kuwisdelu
07-11-2008, 02:36 AM
The first real nanny state?

I'm not sure what this has to do with a "nanny state." I don't see it as being any different than forcing nutritional information to be put on food.

MattW
07-11-2008, 02:50 AM
Gas guzzler tax would be appropriate.

A sticker is worthless.

Siddow
07-11-2008, 03:04 AM
How is this any different than Energy Star ratings on appliances? maybe they should do something like that; "This vehicle will cost you an average of $6000 a year to fuel."

I think that's a great idea.

Plot Device
07-11-2008, 03:52 AM
I need some help here guys.

Should I have a mod change the title of the thread? Do you think I was misled by the British news article? Is the British interpretation totally bogus and so is this sticker one that is NOT required after purchase?? (Kinda like the tags on your mattress?) Or is it required to be displayed at all times throughout the life of the car? "I'm with the mattress police. There are no tags on these mattresses." --Chevy Chase in Fletch

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 03:56 AM
I need some help here guys.

Should I have a mod change the title of the thread? Do you think I was misled by the British news article? Is the British interpretation totally bogus and so is this sticker one that is NOT required after purchase?? (Kinda like the tags on your mattress?) Or is it required to be displayed at all times throughout the life of the car? "I'm with the mattress police. There are no tags on these mattresses." --Chevy Chase in Fletch
Here is the link I posted earlier, if I am reading it correctly the sticker is for consumer awareness and not for permanent display after the car is purchased.

http://www.climatechangefraud.com/co...view/1512/218/

Plot Device
07-11-2008, 03:59 AM
Here is the link I posted earlier, if I am reading it correctly the sticker is for consumer awareness and not for permanent display after the car is purchased.

http://www.climatechangefraud.com/co...view/1512/218/

Yeah but ... your choice of article in this instance is kinda ...... tabloid-y and bias-y.

And that's part of why I asked the Brits here to give me the lowdown on The Independent.

robeiae
07-11-2008, 04:11 AM
I'm not sure what this has to do with a "nanny state." I don't see it as being any different than forcing nutritional information to be put on food.
Well, if it's a permanent sticker placed on cars, it's a very different thing. Nutritional information is not on food--it's on the packaging. It's there for the buyer to utilize for the decision-making process. A permanent sticker on cars in public view would not be there for the buyer. It would be there for everyone else.

If the sticker is merely on the window sheet, then it is the same thing--there to help the buyer make his/her decision.

In the first case, I'd say it's not so much a nanny-state thing, as it is a police-state thing.

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 04:15 AM
Yeah but ... your choice of article in this instance is kinda ...... tabloid-y and bias-y.

And that's part of why I asked the Brits here to give me the lowdown on The Independent.
Picky, picky...:)

How about

http://wot.motortrend.com/6261224/green/california-mandates-eco-performance-sticker-on-2009-vehicles/index.html

Not to confused with:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr16.htm (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr16.htm)

Joe270
07-11-2008, 07:22 AM
Gas guzzler tax would be appropriate.

Because gasoline is priced the same for all vehicles, those who drive efficient cars are literally subsidizing the big gas guzzlers.

It really pisses me off.

I hope they will change the registration system, so the gas sipping vehicles pay a hundred bucks, and it goes up with the fuel use of the vehicle, until the Hummers are paying $5000 a year.

That would help eliminate the unfair subsidy and provide the added benefit for these 'status symbol' vehicle owners that they really are rich enough to drive them.

It's not a 'luxury tax', it's a 'use tax'. They can pay for lots of infrastructure improvements.

Jo
07-11-2008, 08:11 AM
If people judge a car on the road by a performance sticker, they're not getting the whole story. Just because someone owns and registers a "gas guzzler" doesn't mean they use it often. Person A, who owns a "green" car may use it many more times than Person B who owns a "gas guzzler". They could, in theory, contribute to global warming equally over time. Of course, if Person B's car was "green" in the first place... :e2hammer:

I think being aware of a car's environmental performance is a good thing for purchases, but having that performance displayed after purchase (if that's the case) without also displaying car usage is misleading.

Joe270
07-11-2008, 08:24 AM
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:CJRnqtFjO-WEuM:http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/randy_international_cxt_truck.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/randy_international_cxt_truck.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thefuntimesguide.com/2005/10/cxt_super_truck.php&h=450&w=679&sz=492&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=CJRnqtFjO-WEuM:&altq=international+cxt,&tbnh=92&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3DInternational%2Bctx%2Btruck%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

I rest my case. I have a neighbor who has one of these things, complete with a custom made garage for it. I've seen him go pick up pizza in it.

Conspicuous consumption which costs all of us at the pump. It's time they pay their fair share, they aren't paying it now.

We subsidize their extravagance.

tiny
07-11-2008, 08:27 AM
I'm one of those people who drives a guzzler. How exactly are those who drive more efficient cars subsidizing my gas? I seem to be paying exactly the same price as everyone else at the pump, and I'm there twice as much.


It's a modified jeep by the way, lifted with big chunky tires.

Joe270
07-11-2008, 08:57 AM
The law of supply and demand. The gas guzzlers increased the demand, thus the price went up. . .for everyone, not just the biggest users.

Jo
07-11-2008, 09:12 AM
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:CJRnqtFjO-WEuM:http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/randy_international_cxt_truck.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://thefuntimesguide.com/images/blogs/randy_international_cxt_truck.jpg&imgrefurl=http://thefuntimesguide.com/2005/10/cxt_super_truck.php&h=450&w=679&sz=492&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=CJRnqtFjO-WEuM:&altq=international+cxt,&tbnh=92&tbnw=139&prev=/images%3Fq%3DInternational%2Bctx%2Btruck%26um%3D1% 26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN)

I rest my case. I have a neighbor who has one of these things, complete with a custom made garage for it. I've seen him go pick up pizza in it.

Conspicuous consumption which costs all of us at the pump. It's time they pay their fair share, they aren't paying it now.

We subsidize their extravagance.

I know this is a Californian (/American) issue. However...

Hubby and I own a medium-sized 4WD (family of five)--a gas guzzler. Without it, we wouldn't be able to get around where we live (Aussie bush/forests/sand--many of our roads are tracks that are prone to flooding). Small, economic cars can't hack our conditions. Would you say we're extravagant? Should we be penalised for needing this type of vehicle?

Joe270
07-11-2008, 09:39 AM
Would you say we're extravagant? Should we be penalised for needing this type of vehicle?

Absolutely not. I'm talking about the US consumption, not the need in Africa for a Land Rover.

I'd offer, for some 99% of the Land Rovers in the US, the farthest off-road they've ever been is when they strayed a foot or so onto the hard shoulder of the highway.

Sure, in the US there are people who have need of such vehicles. They'd get special plates, like they have in Texas and other states, 'farm truck', 'commercial vehicle', and get special dispensation. Same for off-road tour operators, etc.

That mechanism is already in place.

There was a radio show here in Vegas where one of the DJs was discussing getting rid of her SUV for a more efficient vehicle because she 'drove into work alone for over an hour each way, and the gas bill was crazy'. I didn't hear one caller, all of whom were women, who encouraged her to keep the gas guzzler. They all stated that she'd miss the 'versatility' or 'carrying capacity' for when she goes to Costco.

Buy a small enclosed trailer if you're buying that much at Costco. Rent a 3 wheel drive SUV when you go skiing once a year for three or four days. None of their arguments stood up to the smallest touch of logic.

LaceWing
07-11-2008, 11:10 AM
The numbering seems limited and contradictory to its message to me.

If it's by ranking, use 1st place for the lowest emissions, 10th place for the higher emissions, to reinforce the idea that low emission and consumption is good and high is bad.

Or use negative numbers. 0 is optimal, -1 is next best, etc. Maybe even guzzler buyers would think twice when they see negative numbers, never a good sign on the balance sheet.

But whatever ranking numbers are used, when a new vehicle leaves the former best choice in the dust someday, what happens? The previous rankings become irrelevant in comparison. Everyone has to go get their stickers changed after some committee has worked up spreadsheets for a few months.

Better yet I think, use gallons per 100 miles, which would be -2 for 2 gals per 100 miles used by a 50 mpg vehicle, -20 for 20 gals per 100 miles used by a 5 mpg vehicle.

clintl
07-11-2008, 07:29 PM
That sticker in the Motor Trend article Robert referenced is pretty obviously part of or in addition to the new car sticker with price, mileage, features, etc., and not a permanent display.

Also, you can debate how best design the ratings, but I see nothing wrong with 0 being the worst, and 10 being the best. Culturally, we are well-conditioned to think on a 0-10 scale, and someone compared it to Energy Star ratings for appliances. The design of the sticker looks a lot like that. I don't think most Californians are going to have a problem understanding what the ratings mean.

MattW
07-11-2008, 07:36 PM
But whatever ranking numbers are used, when a new vehicle leaves the former best choice in the dust someday, what happens? The previous rankings become irrelevant in comparison. Everyone has to go get their stickers changed after some committee has worked up spreadsheets for a few months.
That is a really good point - what to do about continual advances. If a 2008 model gets a 10, then performance is improved for 2010, what score does it then get? And if I'm buying a used car, do I know that models from different years have the same basis for the rating?

You'd need a a broader absolute scale to measure and compare different model years.

MPG divided by a factor of carbon footprint would be nice, but if it becomes too fractional, people get scared by math.

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 07:37 PM
Better yet I think, use gallons per 100 miles, which would be -2 for 2 gals per 100 miles used by a 50 mpg vehicle, -20 for 20 gals per 100 miles used by a 5 mpg vehicle.
All new cars sold in the U.S. already have a City / Highway fuel rating in mpg per EPA tests.

brianm
07-11-2008, 07:37 PM
That sticker in the Motor Trend article Robert referenced is pretty obviously part of or in addition to the new car sticker with price, mileage, features, etc., and not a permanent display.

That's my understanding, as well. It's an additional piece of information to help new car buyers in their decision making process. It, like the 'window sticker', can be removed after the vehicle has been purchased.

clintl
07-11-2008, 07:49 PM
All new cars sold in the U.S. already have a City / Highway fuel rating in mpg per EPA tests.

Yes, and people are used to thinking in those terms. However, I was reading an article recently in which a team of scientists were making an argument that rating mileage as gallons per mile rather than miles per gallon would be more helpful. And when you do the math, they're right. You get more savings going from 10 mpg to 20 mpg than you do going from 20 mpg to 40 mpg. Here's how it works:

If you're driving 100 miles,
10 mpg consumes 10 gallons (0.1 gal/mile)
20 mpg consumes 5 gallons (0.05 gal/mile)
40 mpg consumes 2.5 gallons (0.025 gal/mile)

Using gal/mile makes it easier to understand the true savings of increasing mileage.

Shadow_Ferret
07-11-2008, 07:55 PM
I think this is a great idea. Compliance through public humiliation.

I also think they need to bring back stocks for criminals.

Plot Device
07-11-2008, 08:07 PM
Okay, guys. I'd like to ask one of the mods to pretty please change the title of this thread to say:

California mandates car dealers to display a "Green Score" sticker on all 2009 models

(And thank you to everyone for setting my sorry ass straight.)

whistlelock
07-11-2008, 08:24 PM
You know, I'm a super liberal that is totally on the carbon score/greenhouse less gas train. I don't drive or own a suv.

And that idea sucks.

I say Booooo to that sticker if it's there after you buy the car.

Booooooo!

However, having that on the car as a decision factor to buy new or used is a good idea. The EPa already publishes this information on their website, so it's an easy statistic to compile. it will help lazy sheeople to buy a car.

Tirjasdyn
07-11-2008, 08:26 PM
Right now if you get off I-25 at 6th Ave Eastbound in Denver you'll drive past a sign that does...I have no idea...the tells you how good your car is for the environment. My Saturn Ion rates Great right now...but I drove behind a an old corolla that the sign flashed red at the other day.

tiny
07-11-2008, 09:36 PM
The law of supply and demand. The gas guzzlers increased the demand, thus the price went up. . .for everyone, not just the biggest users.


I go to a gas station that is 20 cents cheaper a gallon and yet I see those with more efficent cars going to the station across the way with more expensive gas. What say you about those who go ahead and pay more when there is a cheaper price? Should they be penalized?

Gas guzzlers are not the end all blame by the way. It's very easy to point fingers, but it doesn't fly. Gas prices are not based solely on supply and demand. There's a much more complex system than just that.

And unless you actually take care of your car and drive it conservatively you will not be getting the MPG that is advertised. So those who let their cars maintanence go by the wayside should also be placed in the "guzzler" group as well as the lead foots.

Change your oil people and make sure you have the right air pressure in your tires.

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 09:43 PM
TT Notice any resemblance?

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l253/RT_2006/art_newtonjohn_ap.jpg

icerose
07-11-2008, 09:46 PM
Gas guzzlers are not the end all blame by the way. It's very easy to point fingers, but it doesn't fly. Gas prices are not based solely on supply and demand. There's a much more complex system than just that.



Exactly, otherwise gas would start going back down with demand lowering and it isn't.

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 09:54 PM
Exactly, otherwise gas would start going back down with demand lowering and it isn't.
That's the odd part of the equation, the actual usage can drop and logic says the price of oil should also drop. The market is being driven by the speculators who are buying oil futures, which takes oil off the market (in theory), thus the price remains high or even goes up.

It is a supply and demand issue, the problem...the demand is on paper.

Sucks, but that's capitalism.

clintl
07-11-2008, 10:03 PM
I think Paul Krugman's take on this is interesting. He's skeptical that speculation is the main cause, and so am I. And one of the reasons is that the prices of other raw materials that aren't traded on commodities markets are also going up. The primary driver is increased demand in countries with emerging economies. We can reduce our demand, but if the demand is still going up in China and India, it might not make that much difference.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/opinion/27krugman.html

Joe270
07-11-2008, 10:15 PM
There hasn't been enough of a drop in demand to cause a drop in price yet.

Also, the fundamentals of the demand haven't really changed.

The drop in demand is mostly, from what I can tell in Vegas, from people not taking their minivacations over the weekends, etc. The gas guzzlers are still on the road and the majority of people have not changed their driving habits as far as commuting to work. It will take time.

There are new cars coming on the market, like the turbo-diesel hybrid VW Passat that I'm champing at the bit to purchase, which get 99 miles to the gallon. Those will put a serious dent into demand once they get on the road, but it will take years to replace the vehicles on the road now.

For me, that replaces my 28 mpg Impala, cutting my consumption by almost 75%.

For an Excursion with a lift kit and over sized tires, a 6 mpg waste, that's well over a 90% reduction in consumption.

A Cadillac Escalade (13 mpg) with custom rims (-3mpg) gets 10 mpg. That's almost a 90% reduction in consumption.

In another thread, Limey summed up our consumption at 4 gallons each per day in the US. If that went down to 0.5 per day, there would be a huge drop in the price.

Conservation is the course which will have the greatest and quickest impact on fuel prices. I suggest we get on with it, quickly.

Robert Toy
07-11-2008, 10:25 PM
I think Paul Krugman's take on this is interesting. He's skeptical that speculation is the main cause, and so am I. And one of the reasons is that the prices of other raw materials that aren't traded on commodities markets are also going up. The primary driver is increased demand in countries with emerging economies. We can reduce our demand, but if the demand is still going up in China and India, it might not make that much difference.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/opinion/27krugman.html
An interesting excerpt from your link.

"buying a futures contract doesn’t directly reduce the supply of oil to consumers — but under some circumstances, speculation in the oil futures market can indirectly raise prices, encouraging producers and other players to hoard oil rather than making it available for use."

As for the non-traded items, such as iron ore or other raw materials. These raw materials much be transported from their source to the buyer this means consuming oil...the price will increase.

Maybe I am looking at it too simplistically, but it sure makes common sense.

donroc
07-11-2008, 10:44 PM
There hasn't been enough of a drop in demand to cause a drop in price yet.

Also, the fundamentals of the demand haven't really changed.

The drop in demand is mostly, from what I can tell in Vegas, from people not taking their minivacations over the weekends, etc. The gas guzzlers are still on the road and the majority of people have not changed their driving habits as far as commuting to work. It will take time.

There are new cars coming on the market, like the turbo-diesel hybrid VW Passat that I'm champing at the bit to purchase, which get 99 miles to the gallon. Those will put a serious dent into demand once they get on the road, but it will take years to replace the vehicles on the road now.

For me, that replaces my 28 mpg Impala, cutting my consumption by almost 75%.

For an Excursion with a lift kit and over sized tires, a 6 mpg waste, that's well over a 90% reduction in consumption.

A Cadillac Escalade (13 mpg) with custom rims (-3mpg) gets 10 mpg. That's almost a 90% reduction in consumption.

In another thread, Limey summed up our consumption at 4 gallons each per day in the US. If that went down to 0.5 per day, there would be a huge drop in the price.

Conservation is the course which will have the greatest and quickest impact on fuel prices. I suggest we get on with it, quickly.

A friend of mine just returned from Las Vegas. He said from his POV the city is hurting because the airlines have cut back on flights and the Asians are preferring to gamble in Macao. No reservations were needed at the restaurants and room prices have dropped. Is all that true?

ColoradoGuy
07-12-2008, 02:20 AM
Title change from the previous Hawthorne-ish reference.

blacbird
07-12-2008, 02:22 AM
Title change from the previous Hawthorne-ish reference.

And there you go, gettin' all literary on us pore fokes.

caw

ColoradoGuy
07-12-2008, 02:25 AM
It's what Plot requested, and, of course, we're only here to serve.

Joe270
07-12-2008, 02:29 AM
Vegas is getting pounded by the downturn in the economy and gas prices.
http://www.lvrj.com/news/24444904.html

The Gaming Control Board reported Thursday that gaming tax collections in June plunged 22.8 percent from June 2007, the worst drop in at least 10 years.

The worst drop in ten years is only the beginning. A 23% drop in gambling revenues isn't even close to the bottom, IMHO. Farther down in the article they point the finger at gasoline prices. This downturn seems more rooted in less local gambling and hinterland losses (folks who used to drive in from Cal, Utah, and Ariz, but are no longer doing so due to gas prices).

From what I heard there is a planned decrease in airline traffic of over 12%, but it hasn't been implemented yet.

It's gonna be a one-two punch. Of course, then more folks get laid off, lower local gambling revenues, less service and fewer attractions will lure even fewer tourists, more drop.

Sorry to derail the thread.

robeiae
07-12-2008, 02:30 AM
It's what Plot requested, and, of course, we're only here to serve.
Get me some fries and a malted, big guy...

maestrowork
07-12-2008, 02:35 AM
Capitalism has a way of adjusting itself. We're of course free to make our own spending decisions and if we don't care about spending $100 on gas, twice every week, then who is to tell us what to do with our own money? As far as using up all the oil faster... well, let our children worry about that.

Still, more and more people are aware of that and more and more people are dumping their gas guzzlers for fuel-economic cars. In June, SUVs and trucks sales have dropped significantly while they couldn't meet the demands for smaller cars. Three Ford dealerships closed around town just this month. In Los Angeles alone, traffic has decreased by at least 20-30% and fewer people are driving that SUVs. When your pump bill tops $400 or $600 a month, you will think twice about about it...

I think forcing people to do certain things don't work. Let their wallets be their own conscience. That's how to dice rolls in this country.

ColoradoGuy
07-12-2008, 02:44 AM
Get me some fries and a malted, big guy...
Lefty tofu fries and soy milk, I assume?

kuwisdelu
07-12-2008, 02:47 AM
Lefty tofu fries and soy milk, I assume?

I scream, you scream, we all scream for non-fat tofutti rice dreamsicles...

100 points for getting the reference :D

robeiae
07-12-2008, 02:53 AM
I scream, you scream, we all scream for non-fat tofutti rice dreamsicles...

100 points for getting the reference :D
Half the women I dated in college?

maestrowork
07-12-2008, 02:59 AM
Half the woman I dated in college?

How did you date half a woman?

Plot Device
07-12-2008, 03:01 AM
Title change from the previous Hawthorne-ish reference.

It's what Plot requested, and, of course, we're only here to serve.


:)

kuwisdelu
07-12-2008, 03:05 AM
Half the women I dated in college?

Not unless you dated Gillian Anderson. In which case I'd have to shoot you out of raging jealousy. But then everyone here would get in an argument over whether I have a civil or a natural right to carry said firearm...

LimeyDawg
07-12-2008, 03:13 AM
Not unless you dated Gillian Anderson. In which case I'd have to shoot you out of raging jealousy. But then everyone here would get in an argument over whether I have a civil or a natural right to carry said firearm...
If she represents half the women you dated in college, you should have left the dorm a little more often.

Plot Device
07-12-2008, 03:16 AM
Not unless you dated Gillian Anderson. In which case I'd have to shoot you out of raging jealousy. But then everyone here would get in an argument over whether I have a civil or a natural right to carry said firearm...

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/customavatars/avatar14597_3.gif

LimeyDawg
07-12-2008, 03:19 AM
Oh, is that a gun. I thought you were just happy to see me...yikes!

kuwisdelu
07-12-2008, 03:20 AM
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/customavatars/avatar14597_3.gif

Plot Device, I drool over your avatar every day.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0751239/quotes

Joe270
07-12-2008, 06:04 AM
In June, SUVs and trucks sales have dropped significantly while they couldn't meet the demands for smaller cars. Three Ford dealerships closed around town just this month. In Los Angeles alone, traffic has decreased by at least 20-30% and fewer people are driving that SUVs. When your pump bill tops $400 or $600 a month, you will think twice about about it...

That decision might not be theirs to make soon. GM already announced 'retooling' their assembly lines from trucks and SUVs to start a new 'gas sipping' line of cars. Then yesterday, Toyota is giving up on the truck/suv market, too. Goodbye, Toyota Tundra.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D91RIOOO1.htm

Toyota Motor Corp., the seemingly unstoppable juggernaut that saw its U.S. sales double in the last decade, has come back down to earth. Stung by rare double-digit sales declines and burdened by a growing inventory of slow-selling pickups, Toyota said Thursday it will start producing the Prius hybrid in the U.S. and will shut down truck and SUV production to meet changing consumer demands.

Toyota was the latest automaker to announce major production changes in response to lagging U.S. auto sales.

Duncan J Macdonald
07-12-2008, 06:48 AM
There are new cars coming on the market, like the turbo-diesel hybrid VW Passat that I'm champing at the bit to purchase, which get 99 miles to the gallon. Those will put a serious dent into demand once they get on the road, but it will take years to replace the vehicles on the road now.
The concept car that VW unveiled at Geneva in March was a TDI Golf Hybrid, not a Passat. Also, the next month, VW killed the cr, saying that it would be too expensive to produce, and instead are going with a gas Twincharged (both super- and turbo-charged) hybrid that only comes in at about 32 mpg (vice the 69 mpg of th ediesel).

See Link. (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/04/vw-golf-turbo-diesel-hybrid-dead-tsi.php)

Joe270
07-12-2008, 06:58 AM
Damn it. I've been waiting for that damn car. Screw 32 mpg, I could have bought a Hyundai three or four months ago that got 33 mpg, about the same size as the Passat. I saw an article on the Passat turbo-diesel, I know it. The Golf is too small for me.

I'm gonna drop by the dealership this weekend to see what I can find out.

Plot Device
07-12-2008, 07:09 AM
I can't find any info on what the mileage of this vehicle might be.

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/16382

Mitsubishi Motors Corp could begin selling its all-electric car to customers in Japan as early as summer 2009

07/11/2008 09:44 AM

A spokesman for the company said it is studying how to best time the roll-out of its vehicle, called the i-MiEV. The company said sales may begin with fleet customers, but individuals would be able to buy the vehicle by 2010 at the latest.

A different spokesperson said 2,000 vehicles would be available in the first year--twice the level previously announced--according to the report

Last month the company announced that it may begin working with PSA Peugeot Citroen (http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/16226) (UG.PA) to develop electric powertrains for small urban vehicles.

BMW (BMW.F) announced that it wil begin field tests on electric drive systems in the Mini brand of vehicles. BMW said in March that it will determine this year whether or not to pursue production of a battery-powered car. To date, the company has primarily focused on hydrogen-powered vehicles as a replacement to gasoline-powered cars.

Tests will be conducted over 12-18 months, followed by a report, the company said

Joe270
07-12-2008, 07:12 AM
Man, I'm so pissed that my dream car isn't happening. I even had a vanity plate chosen: 99MPG-LOL.

I'm gonna make a drink now. Damn it.

The only other diesel I really liked was the BMW 825D, and it's just a wee bit out of my price range. 80 grand out of my price range.

Joe270
07-12-2008, 07:16 AM
I can't find any info on what the mileage of this vehicle might be.

Word of advice, Plot. Don't get all worked up over the car.

You'll just wind up swilling cheap booze while you burn up your vanity plate form after Duncan gives you the double-barrel shotgun blast of bad news in a couple months.

Damn it.

maestrowork
07-12-2008, 01:34 PM
That decision might not be theirs to make soon. GM already announced 'retooling' their assembly lines from trucks and SUVs to start a new 'gas sipping' line of cars. Then yesterday, Toyota is giving up on the truck/suv market, too. Goodbye, Toyota Tundra.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D91RIOOO1.htm

It's driven by demands. They wouldn't be doing that if there were demands. They're shutting down those lines and productions because people stop buying. Meanwhile, sales of the Prius keep going up.

LimeyDawg
07-12-2008, 02:57 PM
I like how all these manufacturers for years couldn't produce cars with any decent mileage, now, due to consumer demand changes, BOOM, they're all on board.

maestrowork
07-12-2008, 03:39 PM
I like how all these manufacturers for years couldn't produce cars with any decent mileage, now, due to consumer demand changes, BOOM, they're all on board.

It has always been like that. For a long time the Big 3 told Congress they didn't have the technology to do the catalytic converter. Then the Japanese came up with it and BAM, the Big 3 started making cars with it. It's all about status quo. Until it's challenged, they don't have any incentives. So it paves the way for the Japanese or Germans to go to market first with their hybrids, electric, and fuel-cell cars... The Americans has the capability of mass producing electric cars for years, but are we driving American-made electric cars now? No wonder American autos are in trouble. GM is on the verge of imploding right now, and Ford is not far behind.

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 03:51 PM
If car manufacturers concentrated as much effort and money into improving a product, vs. the looks we would have one hell of a car on the road.

Vanity is such a bitch we have to have the latest model in our driveway.

maestrowork
07-12-2008, 04:13 PM
If car manufacturers concentrated as much effort and money into improving a product, vs. the looks we would have one hell of a car on the road.

Vanity is such a bitch we have to have the latest model in our driveway.

That's the thing -- they don't want to encourage Americans to buy solid, well performing cars that don't look sexy that last for 20 years. That doesn't translate to repeat sales. They want to encourage them to buy a new car every three years -- new and sexy models coming your way -- that breaks down after the warranty runs out, and takes more money to fix than to buy or lease a new one... that keeps the production lines moving and the dealers happy. That may explain why a lot of American cars are crap while a Mercedes may last forever...

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 04:30 PM
Planned obsolescence

robeiae
07-12-2008, 04:32 PM
It has always been like that. For a long time the Big 3 told Congress they didn't have the technology to do the catalytic converter. Then the Japanese came up with it and BAM, the Big 3 started making cars with it. It's all about status quo. Until it's challenged, they don't have any incentives.
That's right, Ray. Incentives do the real dirty work. And they'll do it here.

I just don't wanna be driving one of those SmartCars...makes me feel all European...

maestrowork
07-12-2008, 08:30 PM
I just don't wanna be driving one of those SmartCars...makes me feel all European...

I saw one yesterday next to a Dewey's Pizza. It's really cute. But no, I won't be driving one. The Mini is too small for me already. And yes, it's VERY European.

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 08:37 PM
I saw one yesterday next to a Dewey's Pizza. It's really cute. But no, I won't be driving one. The Mini is too small for me already. And yes, it's VERY European.
Interesting, what would make a car more American and not European?

clintl
07-12-2008, 09:14 PM
Interesting, what would make a car more American and not European?

Something like this.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/10/apteras-300-mpg-car-available-for-pre-order/

robeiae
07-12-2008, 10:10 PM
Interesting, what would make a car more American and not European?
Mud flaps...with a silvered silhouette of a reclining woman.

http://www.innerauto.com/images/partImages/mud_flaps2.jpg

Or a gun rack.

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 10:30 PM
Sorry I asked...:D

Don
07-12-2008, 10:44 PM
Interesting, what would make a car more American and not European?
Tailfins, a huge V-8, and an inability to corner. :D

Seriously, History Channel has a show in the Autobahn; in one section they discussed the differences between american and european cars of the 60's - 80's and pointed out how higher fuel prices and the Autobahn had resulted in better-handling, more efficient cars that out-handled the pleasure yachts that Detroit built for our 70-MPH Interstates at the expense of a less-luxurious ride.

Duncan J Macdonald
07-12-2008, 10:48 PM
Word of advice, Plot. Don't get all worked up over the car.

You'll just wind up swilling cheap booze while you burn up your vanity plate form after Duncan gives you the double-barrel shotgun blast of bad news in a couple months.

Damn it.
Sorry that I rained on your parade Joe. I've been looking at more fuel efficient vehicles myself, and I knew that VW had dropped the diesel-electric hybrid.
That being said, I drive an '05 VW Passat TDI (the last model year that the Passat came with a diesel here in the US). My commute is 30 miles each way, with about 10 of that city. I average 36 mpg, and can peak to 42 or so on long highway trips.
In 2009, VW will be selling the 50 state-legal Jetta diesel, so there's hope yet (in the 2005 model year, the Jetta was upsized to a midsize from compact).

Duncan J Macdonald
07-12-2008, 10:53 PM
Mud flaps...with a silvered silhouette of a reclining woman.

http://www.innerauto.com/images/partImages/mud_flaps2.jpg

Or a gun rack.

For Equal Time...

http://www.mudflapboys.biz/img/stickers2.gif

and for Truth in Advertizing...

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/04/fguymudflap_.jpg

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 10:53 PM
There is an idiot in my village (yes the village idiot), that has a bright yellow Hummer. He can only drive it the larger streets and has no end of flack for trying to park that monster in town. Those damn things are half again as wide as the normal car here.

Considering that gasoline here is twice what it is in the states, plus his shipping and insurance costs, it’s a real duh!

Cranky
07-12-2008, 10:57 PM
For Equal Time...

http://www.mudflapboys.biz/img/stickers2.gif

and for Truth in Advertizing...

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/04/fguymudflap_.jpg


My eyes, Duncan, my EYES!! :roll:

I'm trying to talk the hubster into getting a motorcycle next spring (not hard to do), to save on the gas mileage. We only use our minivan when we all need to go somewhere or grocery shopping, so I only use it maybe twice a month. More some months when I have doctor appointments for the kids, but generally...we spend maybe $60 a month on gas. That's with his back and forth to work.

With a motorcycle, that'll get cut even more. Plus, I'll get to take a ride, which is the important part to remember. :D

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 10:57 PM
Sorry that I rained on your parade Joe. I've been looking at more fuel efficient vehicles myself, and I knew that VW had dropped the diesel-electric hybrid.
That being said, I drive an '05 VW Passat TDI (the last model year that the Passat came with a diesel here in the US). My commute is 30 miles each way, with about 10 of that city. I average 36 mpg, and can peak to 42 or so on long highway trips.
In 2009, VW will be selling the 50 state-legal Jetta diesel, so there's hope yet (in the 2005 model year, the Jetta was upsized to a midsize from compact).
A good deal of your success in mpg is the driving style. Someone with a lead foot would complain that the mpg sucks.

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 10:59 PM
My eyes, Duncan, my EYES!! :roll:

I'm trying to talk the hubster into getting a motorcycle next spring (not hard to do), to save on the gas mileage. We only use our minivan when we all need to go somewhere or grocery shopping, so I only use it maybe twice a month. More some months when I have doctor appointments for the kids, but generally...we spend maybe $60 a month on gas. That's with his back and forth to work.

With a motorcycle, that'll get cut even more. Plus, I'll get to take a ride, which is the important part to remember. :D
So you're getting a Harley Hog? 'cause anything else ain't a motorcycle, 'cept maybe an Indian if you cn afford one. :D

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 11:03 PM
Here I'll hep ya.

http://www.indianmotorcycle.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=ANhmRi7zvzg%3d&tabid=166

Cranky
07-12-2008, 11:04 PM
Oh, wouldn't we love that! But no, he's thinking something much more affordable. Like maybe this:

http://www.suzukicycles.com/images/ProductImages/logo/500/M109R2K8.jpg

or this:

http://www.suzukicycles.com/images/ProductImages/logo/500/C109RK8.jpg

robeiae
07-12-2008, 11:04 PM
Plus, I'll get to take a ride, which is the important part to remember. :DI'm certain a "ride" can be arranged for you without going to all that trouble...

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 11:05 PM
Oh, wouldn't we love that! But no, he's thinking something much more affordable. Like maybe this:

http://www.suzukicycles.com/images/ProductImages/logo/500/M109R2K8.jpg

Ooh shiny!

Duncan J Macdonald
07-12-2008, 11:06 PM
I can't find any info on what the mileage of this vehicle might be.

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/16382


From Edumds: (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=124867)

Mitsubishi claims that in ideal conditions, the i MIEV gets 100 miles on a full charge, which compares with the 40 miles promised by the Chevrolet Volt (http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2011/review.html). When we asked what "ideal conditions" really means, we were told, "no air-conditioning." In the real world of city driving with the temperature hovering around 40 degrees F and the electric heater humming away for comfort, we managed a little over 60 miles before it was back to Mitsubishi headquarters for a recharge.

Cranky
07-12-2008, 11:06 PM
I'm certain a "ride" can be arranged for you without going to all that trouble...

Well, it's a nice little insurance policy for him, though, ain't it? Shiny. I like shiny. :D

Robert Toy
07-12-2008, 11:08 PM
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l253/RT_2006/Chief_Vintage_Grainsm.jpg

robeiae
07-12-2008, 11:10 PM
Well, it's a nice little insurance policy for him, though, ain't it? Shiny. I like shiny. :D
*looks over at Frankie the Mutt and Machine Gun Tommy*

You heard her boys...she's got an insurance policy. Take her for a ride and don't forget the concrete galoshes, this time.

robeiae
07-12-2008, 11:11 PM
http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/63/63070/little_tikes_scooter.jpg

Cranky
07-12-2008, 11:12 PM
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l253/RT_2006/Chief_Vintage_Grainsm.jpg

Fringe? On a motorcycle? OMG, that's just wrong. Otherwise, a sweet machine!

Nice try, Robsie. I ain't worth much dead. Cost more to pay for the childcare, heee!

Okay, I'm a bad girl for derailing the thread. My apologies to the OP. *bad Cranky, bad*

Duncan J Macdonald
07-12-2008, 11:17 PM
My eyes, Duncan, my EYES!! :roll:

I'm trying to talk the hubster into getting a motorcycle next spring (not hard to do), to save on the gas mileage. We only use our minivan when we all need to go somewhere or grocery shopping, so I only use it maybe twice a month. More some months when I have doctor appointments for the kids, but generally...we spend maybe $60 a month on gas. That's with his back and forth to work.

With a motorcycle, that'll get cut even more. Plus, I'll get to take a ride, which is the important part to remember. :D
When I'm not driving the Passat TDI, here's what I commute with:

http://cdn-1.psndealer.com/e2/dealersite/images/NewVehicles/2008_5_FLHTCU_PAcificBlu-Blk.jpg

Over the trip that I get 36 mpg with the VW, I get around 45 mpg (that's keeping up with traffic at 75 mph)

Joe270
07-12-2008, 11:19 PM
Sorry that I rained on your parade Joe. I've been looking at more fuel efficient vehicles myself, and I knew that VW had dropped the diesel-electric hybrid.
That being said, I drive an '05 VW Passat TDI (the last model year that the Passat came with a diesel here in the US).

Hey, you didn't cancel the vehicle. But I am having a problem finding any diesel sedans. I could use a club cab small or mid-sized truck instead, but I haven't found any of those.

I only have a couple more months before I must purchase something. I want a diesel because I hope to make my own biodiesel.

Cranky
07-12-2008, 11:21 PM
Hey, you didn't cancel the vehicle. But I am having a problem finding any diesel sedans. I could use a club cab small or mid-sized truck instead, but I haven't found any of those.

I only have a couple more months before I must purchase something. I want a diesel because I hope to make my own biodiesel.

How feasible is that, Joe? I saw an ep of Dirty Jobs, and one of the segments had a guy who made his own biodiesel from used cooking oil. Excellent mpg, too.

But the set up for all of that looked pretty expensive, as did the addititves and other chemicals he needed to clean up the oil and make it useable. Just curious. I thought it was a fascinating concept.

robeiae
07-12-2008, 11:27 PM
This is the real answer:

http://www.outatime.it/public/40-mr_fusion.jpg

Joe270
07-12-2008, 11:44 PM
But the set up for all of that looked pretty expensive, as did the addititves and other chemicals he needed to clean up the oil and make it useable. Just curious. I thought it was a fascinating concept.

I've read about the process and making your own small plant. It's pretty simple, really. I'm sorta cheating, because I have free access to a multi-million dollar lab to ensure quality control.

The most expensive part of a home-made set up is an electric water heater. In Vegas, because of the foreclosure mess, homeowners are stripping the places clean, often including the waterheaters. You can pick up a used one for dirt cheap here.

You need a permit and must pay a highway use fee per gallon which varies per state. Still, with chem costs and fees, people are making it for less than 60 cents a gallon.

I have strong personal reasons for hating the oil companies, so I don't really care if it costs $4 bucks a gallon. Just so long as those bastards aren't getting that chunk of change from me. I won't buy anything from BP, even if it means running out of gas and having to hoof it to another station. Diamond Shamrock is the only station I don't just seethe at spending money in.

kuwisdelu
07-12-2008, 11:45 PM
This is the one that I want.

http://www.mcnews.com.au/Wallpaper/HarleyDavidson/2006/wallpaper/Softail_Springer.jpg

rugcat
07-12-2008, 11:53 PM
How feasible is that, Joe? I saw an ep of Dirty Jobs, and one of the segments had a guy who made his own biodiesel from used cooking oil. Excellent mpg, too.Except, apparently your car smells like whatever the oil was used for in frying. Fries, not so bad. Fish sticks? Might get old.

My girlfriend drives a Honda Fit and loves it. Small on the outside, roomy on the inside, great mileage.

robeiae
07-12-2008, 11:55 PM
Small on the outside, roomy on the inside, great mileage.
That sounds a lot like my ex-girlfriend.

rugcat
07-13-2008, 12:01 AM
My other ride, a slash five:

http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r33/rugcat/R75-521.jpg

Robert Toy
07-13-2008, 12:04 AM
I've read about the process and making your own small plant. It's pretty simple, really.
Sure is

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l253/RT_2006/plant.jpg

rugcat
07-13-2008, 12:07 AM
That sounds a lot like my ex-girlfriend.I momentarily forgot this was hardcore, not slo-pitch.

Joe270
07-13-2008, 01:21 AM
Except, apparently your car smells like whatever the oil was used for in frying. Fries, not so bad. Fish sticks? Might get old.

I've got a promise to get the used oil from the local taco bell. I figure I'll be craving pace and chips more than usual.

Cranky
07-13-2008, 01:25 AM
I'd rather my exhaust smelled like french fries anyway. :D But a point worth considering, fer shure, rugcat.