Names, Languages, and Alternate Worlds

Paichka · Jul 8, 2008

This thread was inspired by this, since Shweta gave me a lot to think about with her question about changing her MC's name to reflect the history of her world.

Bottom Line Up Front: In a world that has key differences from ours, would you be jarred out of the story by names that have biblical or latinate origin? (Ie, James, Jeanne, Jonas?)

I didn't go all con-worldy, because I shamelessly cribbed from medieval Europe (England, France, Spain + the Maghreb) for inspiration. I did twist world history and geography pretty significantly, but many of you will probably be all, "Pssh. How not creative is SHE." My world-building is in the same vein as George RR Martin or Jim Butcher -- if you know a bit about world history, you'll likely be able to guess where I got my inspiration.

I have no Roman Empire (instead, I have a Slavic combination called, loosely, "The Empire of the Bears"). They tried several times to conquer my main country, but were never able to. (The last time they tried, one of the tribal queens slaughtered them all, an event which plays a large role in the story)

I also have no Christianity. The religion of my world is "The Wheel", with gods and goddesses loosely based on the Tarot. The main language is Cairdic (English, natch), with a tribal language based loosely on Old English, with some Gaelic loanwords.

Most of the names of my characters are Gaelic/Celtic/English/a little Germanic in origin. IE, George, Richard, Henry for three princes, and Gwen (Gwenydd), Maggie (Magalyn), Tabby (Tabitha) and Ilya for my MCs.

Shweta's thread made me go all OCD and check the origins of my names. Most of them are either slightly twisted Gaelic-ish (Gwenydd) or straight made up (Magalyn), but a couple are suspect.

Jonas (major character)
James (major)
George (major)
Simon (exists in my history)
Margot (ditto)
Jeanne (minor daughter of the Cairdic king and his foreign queen)
Jacqueline (minor)

Would those names bug you? Or would you neither notice nor care if you did?

Thanks!

Minister · Jul 8, 2008

Probably not; even the names derived from the Bible originated in the cultures and languages underlying the Bible. Since you're borrowing from so many other real-world cultures, why rule out Roman, Greek, and Hebrew? The fact that the fashion of the names doesn't conform to the other names of characters would just suggest to me that there has been some mixture with another culture.

But if it bugs you, what does it hurt to change them?

Edited to add: I get the concern -- many of those Greek/Latin/Hebrew names wouldn't have made it to the level of popularity they did without Christianity's influence on European culture. But since those names are a minority, rather than a majority, of your names, I think that still fits. Medieval Europe would still have had contact with the Middle East (and thus picked up bits of their language and naming conventions) regardless of whether a religion from the Middle East dominated European thought or not. Thus it fits to have a few names with those origins, but not for those names to dominate the naming conventions of your society. Especially names with a Greco-Roman origin -- even if neither Greece nor Rome ever dominated Europe, since geographically they are a part of Europe, there would have been nearly inevitable intermarriage and name-borrowing.

Nateskate · Jul 8, 2008

Paichka said:
This thread was inspired by this, since Shweta gave me a lot to think about with her question about changing her MC's name to reflect the history of her world.

I didn't go all con-worldy, because I shamelessly cribbed from medieval Europe (England, France, Spain + the Maghreb) for inspiration. I did twist world history and geography pretty significantly, but many of you will probably be all, "Pssh. How not creative is SHE." My world-building is in the same vein as George RR Martin or Jim Butcher -- if you know a bit about world history, you'll likely be able to guess where I got my inspiration.

I have no Roman Empire (instead, I have a Slavic combination called, loosely, "The Empire of the Bears"). They tried several times to conquer my main country, but were never able to. (The last time they tried, one of the tribal queens slaughtered them all, an event which plays a large role in the story)

I also have no Christianity. The religion of my world is "The Wheel", with gods and goddesses loosely based on the Tarot. The main language is Cairdic (English, natch), with a tribal language based loosely on Old English, with some Gaelic loanwords.

Most of the names of my characters are Gaelic/Celtic/English/a little Germanic in origin. IE, George, Richard, Henry for three princes, and Gwen (Gwenydd), Maggie (Magalyn), Tabby (Tabitha) and Ilya for my MCs.

Shweta's thread made me go all OCD and check the origins of my names. Most of them are either slightly twisted Gaelic-ish (Gwenydd) or straight made up (Magalyn), but a couple are suspect.

Jonas (major character)
James (major)
George (major)
Simon (exists in my history)
Margot (ditto)
Jeanne (minor daughter of the Cairdic king and his foreign queen)
Jacqueline (minor)

Would those names bug you? Or would you neither notice nor care if you did?

Thanks!

The story itself is more important. I think the use of names can add some authenticity because they will convey a different time or space than the reader. Frodo Bilbo...etc.

I think a great story well written can offset names.

Keyan · Jul 8, 2008

I like the idea of names being etymologically correct. But in practical fact, all I want in stories as a reader is for them to be memorable and relatively simple. If they provide clues to which subgroup the character belongs to, all the better.

I do find it annoying when an author uses one set of names for the good guys, and another for the bad guys, and they're derived from two different real-world cultures. If for instance the good guys all have Norse names, and the bad guys all have Mongolian ones. (This is less annoying in stories where the author is being fairly evenhanded with protagonist and antagonist, and doesn't make the bad guys all a foreign culture.)

Tolkien did a bit of this, and it was annoying, but the story is so good I overlook it.

Paichka · Jul 8, 2008

Minister said:
Edited to add: I get the concern -- many of those Greek/Latin/Hebrew names wouldn't have made it to the level of popularity they did without Christianity's influence on European culture. But since those names are a minority, rather than a majority, of your names, I think that still fits. Medieval Europe would still have had contact with the Middle East (and thus picked up bits of their language and naming conventions) regardless of whether a religion from the Middle East dominated European thought or not. Thus it fits to have a few names with those origins, but not for those names to dominate the naming conventions of your society. Especially names with a Greco-Roman origin -- even if neither Greece nor Rome ever dominated Europe, since geographically they are a part of Europe, there would have been nearly inevitable intermarriage and name-borrowing.

Well, that's the other thing -- I'm not sure if Greece exists. Italy doesn't. The geography of my world is skewed from reality -- think if the Russia/China landmass only went as far as Bulgaria, and then Germany, France and Spain all hung off the end in a large, slightly curving peninsula. The large landmass is dominated by steppes, and the Empire of the Bears I mentioned earlier. None of that is mentioned in the story except incidentally, but I figure it's good information to have.

North Africa exists, and it forms the anvil to Spain's (Iber's) hammer. In my world, the Iber peninsula is several countries, three of which are "of the Wheel", and one of which is a Caliphate that follows a religion I've loosely based on Zoroastrianism. Very loosely. So that region is heavily influenced by a confluence of North African and Arabic flavored customs, much as medieval Spain was (Andalusia). One of my main characters (the most important one) is from the Iber, and she sees everything through that prism.

Anyway. None of the names bothered ME, per se, but I do want my world to make sense. I can't think of everything, but I can make sure that my internal laws are consistent in as much as I'm able.

thanks!

ink wench · Jul 8, 2008

For what it's worth, I'm one fantasy reader who wouldn't even notice. So long as your worldbuilding is consistent and the sounds of your names all makes sense together, all your effort will be invisible to me. As it should, imo. I will only notice worldbuilding if, for example, you have characters named something like edh'su, femh'su, and Kevin. And they're all brothers.

I'm in it for the story.

geardrops · Jul 8, 2008

Too many J-names. Hard on the skimmer. Especially James and Jonas. The shape is too similar.

IMHO anyway

maxmordon · Jul 8, 2008

I use real world names with real languages and etymologically correct names with people from made-up language origin.

But I prefer to use rather odd or unknown names (Inocencio, Hieronymous, Segolene) since I feel it fits with the environment

FennelGiraffe · Jul 8, 2008

Those names bother me, but not because of their etymology. In a world with a history that different, such common, contemporary names would feel wrong. They aren't strange enough.

Also, seconding the comment about too many of them start with the same letter. Especially James and Jonas, which are almost identical visually (J-vowel-consonant-vowel-s, with middle consonants that are similar.)

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 8, 2008

Technically, one has more of a /z/ than an /s/, and the vowels are in different positions in the mouth. I don't see the issue.

Paichka · Jul 8, 2008

J's a popular letter in my world, what can I say?

Technically the names aren't contemporary -- they all date to the 1100s or so, but I see what you're saying.

Ah vell. Back to the drawing board, I suppose.

Internal consistency is hard.

Gray Rose · Jul 9, 2008

If this worries you, you should double-check your Slavic names too. Most of the contemporary Russian names are Greek or Hebrew in origin, including Ilya (which is a Biblical name = Eliahu). Pre-Christian Slavic names are quite different. Look at Bulgarian names if you want a sample. Or ask me.

I have some onomastic Slavic dictionaries.

Nakhlasmoke · Jul 9, 2008

Am I the only one who really thinks that there's too much worry over this?

In larger cities won't there also be a mix of cultural names - especially considering trade and war. I admit to getting kinda brassed off when people say NOES YOU CAN'T HAVE NAMES FROM DIFFERENT CULTURES IN THE SAME BOOK!

If you have a pantheistic culture though, having names that are Hebrew in origin could be somewhat problematic. *grins*

Perle_Rare · Jul 9, 2008

ink wench said:
For what it's worth, I'm one fantasy reader who wouldn't even notice. So long as your worldbuilding is consistent and the sounds of your names all makes sense together, all your effort will be invisible to me. As it should, imo. I will only notice worldbuilding if, for example, you have characters named something like edh'su, femh'su, and Kevin. And they're all brothers.

I'm in it for the story.

Ditto.

Nakhlasmoke said:
Am I the only one who really thinks that there's too much worry over this?

No, you're not alone.

As long as I can keep track of who is who, I have no issue. Though if you change all but one of your character names to no longer resemble "contemporary names" but you leave Jacqueline in, then I'll think something is fishy.

Paichka · Jul 9, 2008

Thanks for all the perspective, guys!

I did fold, and change a couple of the names.

Jacqueline is now Liuete, James is now Josserand (needed to be a "Juh" sounding name, for a plot point. Don't ask), and a little snot named Peter is now Landry, after my jackass battalion commander. I might have to name some characters who die in horribly creative ways after my current bosses. It's theraputic.

The Gaelic/Celtic/English names are for people who are Cairdic. The French sounding names are for people who are from Ile-des-Fleurs. Xenophobia is a major theme in my novel, so I needed to clearly demarcate heritage in my naming conventions.

My Spanish/Arabic flavored characters were MUCH easier to name. Neither language has changed much (as much as English, anyway) since the time period from which I am cribbing, and I didn't have to worry about a Christian influence on the names.

MDSchafer · Jul 10, 2008

I'm against names your reader has to think about in order to pronounce, but I like what you've done on that end. That said, world building, I feel, is a bit self indulgent, and what really matters is the story.

HeronW · Jul 10, 2008

I twist regular names and make ones up according to whom they belong. I use name generators then take that name and change the spelling or the syllables to fit what I need.

Some sound vaguely British or French, others a bit Eastern European or Oriental.

Paichka · Jul 10, 2008

MDSchafer said:
That said, world building, I feel, is a bit self indulgent, and what really matters is the story.

I agree a little, and disagree a little, all at the same time.

I think THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in any book is story and characters. I can't pick one or the other as more important, because I think you need both to really succeed.

I'll use series The Prince of Nothing as an example. I thought the story (particularly the worldbuilding) was compelling, but I did not like the characters at all. The book was incredibly well-written, but it lost my interest because I wanted the main character to die. Horribly.

And his sniveling little girlfriend, too.

But worldbuilding is also important, particularly for fantasy readers. Half the fun of reading a fantasy is entering another world -- and if you fook up the details, your readers are going to notice, and possibly wall-bang your novel. (See: horses in fantasy, naming conventions in fantasy, economics in fantasy...the list goes on.

) Hence the slight OCD-ness I am exhibiting here.

But I think I'm good now. Any other slips are for my agent (whomever s/he may be) to catch.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 10, 2008

Paichka said:
I agree a little, and disagree a little, all at the same time.

I think THE MOST IMPORTANT THING in any book is story and characters. I can't pick one or the other as more important, because I think you need both to really succeed.

I'll use series The Prince of Nothing as an example. I thought the story (particularly the worldbuilding) was compelling, but I did not like the characters at all. The book was incredibly well-written, but it lost my interest because I wanted the main character to die. Horribly. And his sniveling little girlfriend, too.

But worldbuilding is also important, particularly for fantasy readers. Half the fun of reading a fantasy is entering another world -- and if you fook up the details, your readers are going to notice, and possibly wall-bang your novel. (See: horses in fantasy, naming conventions in fantasy, economics in fantasy...the list goes on. ) Hence the slight OCD-ness I am exhibiting here.

But I think I'm good now. Any other slips are for my agent (whomever s/he may be) to catch.

Beyond the fun of engaging in a new world, the story has to fit into the world, and that's where world-building really becomes important in fantasy and sci-fi. Some of the more serious fans of the genre are qite capable of picking out every single mistake you make; others delight in mailing you a list. If all your after is a few formula best-sellers, I guess that wouldn't bother you.

FennelGiraffe · Jul 10, 2008

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Technically, one has more of a /z/ than an /s/, and the vowels are in different positions in the mouth. I don't see the issue.

Not the sound--although that's important, too--in this case it's the way the names look on the page that's almost identical. And, yes, some readers do read that way (for one, I do).

Names, Languages, and Alternate Worlds

Paichka

The BIC-Believer

Minister

Unpredictable preacher

Nateskate

Keyan

ubiquitous

Paichka

The BIC-Believer

ink wench

ray of motherf#%&ing sunshine

geardrops

Good thing I like my day job

maxmordon

Penúltimo

FennelGiraffe

It's green they say

Liosse de Velishaf

Paichka

The BIC-Believer

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!

Nakhlasmoke

yes

Perle_Rare

Dragon rider

Paichka

The BIC-Believer

MDSchafer

HeronW

Down Under Fan

Paichka

The BIC-Believer

Liosse de Velishaf

FennelGiraffe

It's green they say