My Favorite Account In US History Is When… [Archive]

WriteKnight

07-04-2008, 05:27 PM

Here's a two-fer...

I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation.
-- James Madison

and

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants.
-- William Pitt

Ken

07-04-2008, 05:37 PM

the Patriot Act comes to mind when thinking about these later quotes:
To keep tabs on potential terrorists rights of privacy have been compromised,
which is reasonable, enough, in some ways,
but a bit disturbing, too, as government sanctioned spy programs are a key component in all dictatorships.
Handle with care.

mscelina

07-04-2008, 05:38 PM

Let's not forget this one. No matter the era, it still applies to us all.

I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain.

----John Adams

Ken

07-04-2008, 05:43 PM

you'd never know that John Adams' statement wasn't being spoke today.
Timeless, like you say, and really something to think about.

mscelina

07-04-2008, 05:58 PM

I became (and still am, thanks to the DVR) the John Adams miniseries on HBO. Absolutely stunning.

Even more amazing, the history was correct! And if, at the end of it, you don't have complete awe at this man's brilliance and drive...well, I'd be amazed. That's all.

In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
---John Adams

InfinityGoddess

07-04-2008, 06:06 PM

http://www.enotes.com/great-depression-primary-sources/franklin-d-roosevelt-excerpt-from-inaugural

:) I always liked that one. It's so true, even today.

Ken

07-04-2008, 06:36 PM

very famous one, InfinityGoddess: "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."
Odd thing is that many war flicks ( some source of info, I know :-D ),
portray soldiers as acknowledging their fear and embracing it,
while doing what they have to do, nonetheless.
Was a scene like that in "The Longest Day,"
for instance, where a private turns to a higher ranking official and says,
"My stomach is turning," as they approached the shores of Normandy.
General replies: "Mine too."
So maybe Roosevelt's quote runs deeper than what it seems to be getting at about fear?
Think I'll get a book out on Adams, for starts.

mscelina

07-04-2008, 06:56 PM

You will never be alone with a poet in your pocket.
---John Adams

I think Adams would be pleased with you, Anis. :)

Don

07-04-2008, 07:32 PM

I'm a fan of Thomas Jefferson, myself.

"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."

"I am mortified to be told that, in the United States of America, the sale of a book can become a subject of inquiry, and of criminal inquiry too."

"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself."

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others?"

"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not."

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical."

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

mscelina

07-04-2008, 07:35 PM

MWAHAHAHAHAH!

A Jefferson-Adams quote war on the 4th of July????? PERFECT!

Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a democracy that did not commit suicide.
---John Adams

Dawno

07-04-2008, 07:35 PM

Great thread - Happy 4th, everyone.

Don

07-04-2008, 07:43 PM

MWAHAHAHAHAH!

A Jefferson-Adams quote war on the 4th of July????? PERFECT!

Wouldn't it be more of a tag-team event than a war? They'd both be in prison as "domestic terrorists" today. :D

I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.

mscelina

07-04-2008, 07:48 PM

It is something to think about, isn't it? Adams and Jefferson were extraordinary men--two individuals who between them stretched the political and societal beliefs of the times and pulled out a whole new country, a new ideology, a new way to live. Then you look at now, at the result of their sacrifices and brilliance, and you have to wonder what they would think.

Can you imagine either one of them storming into Congress right now? *drools*

wow. That would be some fireworks on the Fourth indeed.

There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
---John Adams

Don

07-04-2008, 07:53 PM

It is something to think about, isn't it? Adams and Jefferson were extraordinary men--two individuals who between them stretched the political and societal beliefs of the times and pulled out a whole new country, a new ideology, a new way to live. Then you look at now, at the result of their sacrifices and brilliance, and you have to wonder what they would think.

Can you imagine either one of them storming into Congress right now? *drools*

wow. That would be some fireworks on the Fourth indeed.

Now that's what I call a novel idea. :D

They would be appalled, vocal, arrested, and sent to Gitmo. I've said before the solution to the energy crisis is generators around their graves. They're spinning so fast by now we'd have all the electricity we need.

mscelina

07-04-2008, 08:01 PM

Do you think?

I'm not so sure. I think that at first, both of them would be fascinated by how the political process has evolved. I also think that they'd sit in on Capitol Hill and bask for a while in how large and well-represented our citizens are by their government--the one they envisioned over two centuries ago.

And then I think they'd take a look at some of these bills and all hell would break loose. Can you imagine John Adams confronted with PORK? He'd lose the little hair he had. can you imagine Thomas Jefferson confronted with the PATRIOT ACT? *shudders* Man, that would be ugly.

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.
---John Adams

Don

07-04-2008, 08:10 PM

Do you think?

I'm not so sure. I think that at first, both of them would be fascinated by how the political process has evolved. I also think that they'd sit in on Capitol Hill and bask for a while in how large and well-represented our citizens are by their government--the one they envisioned over two centuries ago.

And then I think they'd take a look at some of these bills and all hell would break loose. Can you imagine John Adams confronted with PORK? He'd lose the little hair he had. can you imagine Thomas Jefferson confronted with the PATRIOT ACT? *shudders* Man, that would be ugly.

Yep, and next stop, Gitmo. I just wrote the abridged version. :D

ETA: Would Thomas Jefferson think it was time?

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

mscelina

07-04-2008, 08:13 PM

Gitmo? How is that? They'd be operating under the premises of free speech--just like the lady who used a different set of lyrics when hired to sing the national anthem.

Don

07-04-2008, 08:17 PM

Gitmo? How is that? They'd be operating under the premises of free speech--just like the lady who used a different set of lyrics when hired to sing the national anthem.

Allow me some hyperbole, please. :D They wouldn't land in Gitmo until the government had good cause to believe they were fomenting the refreshing of the tree.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

I edited above to ask: Would Jefferson think it's time?

mscelina

07-04-2008, 08:27 PM

Hmmm...interesting question.

If you wanted to get particular about it, we're in an era where that happens. But, upon consideration, I dont think Jefferson would favor the overthrow of this government; he would, however, be very much in favor of stripping the power from our two-party system and returning to the ideals that the founding fathers espoused. Adams, on the other hand, would be going ballistic when he discovered that anyone, especially the Supreme Court of the United States, would question the fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Gun control? Freedom of speech?

Can you picture them in the SCOTUS, screaming at the justices? I can.

But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.
---John Adams

Of course, Adams would really be ticked that Jefferson warranted a monument whereas he remains as one of our most underappreciated (yet profoundly influential) Presidents.

Don

07-04-2008, 08:37 PM

Hmmm...interesting question.

If you wanted to get particular about it, we're in an era where that happens. But, upon consideration, I dont think Jefferson would favor the overthrow of this government; he would, however, be very much in favor of stripping the power from our two-party system and returning to the ideals that the founding fathers espoused. Adams, on the other hand, would be going ballistic when he discovered that anyone, especially the Supreme Court of the United States, would question the fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Gun control? Freedom of speech?

Can you picture them in the SCOTUS, screaming at the justices? I can.

Of course, Adams would really be ticked that Jefferson warranted a monument whereas he remains as one of our most underappreciated (yet profoundly influential) Presidents.

I think they'd probably start with the justices. The Congress couldn't do what they have done if the SC had done its job. I would love to be in the gallery for that.

Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.

WriteKnight

07-04-2008, 08:37 PM

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.
--Patrick Henry

mscelina

07-04-2008, 08:41 PM

I think they'd probably start with the justices. The Congress couldn't do what they have done if the SC had done its job. I would love to be in the gallery for that.

It would be fascinating. Jefferson and Adams were arguably two of the greatest political and/or legal minds involved with the founding of this country. To watch them in active debates with our current justices--well, I'd sell my house just to sit there and take notes.

All the perplexities, confusion and distress in America arise, not from defects in their Constitution or Confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, so much as from the downright ignorance of the nature of coin, credit and circulation.
---John Adams

Ken

07-04-2008, 08:45 PM

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." - Jefferson

there's a lot of truth in this quote, Don,
though it's a bit less valid in the present times.
The government has tanks and fighter jets at their command.
So if a tyranny arose there'd probably be little we could do to overthrow it,
by taking up arms, though there is strength in numbers, as they say.

cool quotes, though, everyone.
Really being blown away, by some.

blacbird

07-04-2008, 09:18 PM

The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them.
--Patrick Henry

You suppose Dick Cheney ever heard of this one?

caw

mscelina

07-04-2008, 09:24 PM

I agree, Anis. When you look in at how these men thought, it helps (at least for me) to clarify what their intentions were with this government.

When people talk of the freedom of writing, speaking or thinking I cannot choose but laugh. No such thing ever existed. No such thing now exists; but I hope it will exist. But it must be hundreds of years after you and I shall write and speak no more.
---John Adams

whistlelock

07-04-2008, 09:48 PM

And, let's not forget our original firebrand, Paine: These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.

Cranky

07-04-2008, 09:53 PM

Here is one of my favorites:

Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light,--
One if by land, and two if by sea;
And I on the opposite shore will be,
Ready to ride and spread the alarm
Through every Middlesex village and farm,
For the country folk to be up and to arm."

Then he said "Good-night!" and with muffled oar
Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore,
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
And a huge black hulk, that was magnified
By its own reflection in the tide.

Link to full piece here (http://www.americanrevolution.com/MidnightRideofPaulRevere.htm).

Ken

07-04-2008, 10:34 PM

for sake of comparison, to these amazing historical quotes,
I googled "George Bush quotes."
Lots of "Dumb George Bush" hits came up.
I took the one below from a seemingly impartial site:
http://thinkexist.com/quotes/george_w._bush/
This was one of the more interesting ones:

"I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace.” - George Bush

mscelina

07-04-2008, 10:42 PM

I'm sticking to John Adams today. I appreciate his point of view and I have a feeling we would have really gotten along--once he got over his 18th century views. ;)

There are two educations. One should teach us how to make a living and the other how to live. ---John Adams

She_wulf

07-04-2008, 10:44 PM

The first part of the Declaration of Independence is over quoted.

This part made me misty-eyed:

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.
To think these men had the courage to stand up and say this. They pledged their lives and livelihoods for a idea. They claimed in writing that they were now a government with rights to levy war. They claimed this to the entire world.

:Clap:

Amy

blacbird

07-04-2008, 11:00 PM

The first part of the Declaration of Independence is over quoted.

Lemme see if I got this straight:

The "liberty and justice for all" part is over-quoted? And the "right to levy war" part makes you misty-eyed?

caw

Bartholomew

07-04-2008, 11:07 PM

My favorite actually comes from an old strategy game.

"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master." - Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri.

Don

07-04-2008, 11:33 PM

It would be fascinating. Jefferson and Adams were arguably two of the greatest political and/or legal minds involved with the founding of this country. To watch them in active debates with our current justices--well, I'd sell my house just to sit there and take notes.

Would the public be receptive to their message, or would the debates be cancelled in the second week due to low ratings against American Gladiator?

The god who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them.

She_wulf

07-04-2008, 11:51 PM

Lemme see if I got this straight:

The "liberty and justice for all" part is over-quoted? And the "right to levy war" part makes you misty-eyed?

caw
yeah. You know why?

Without the guts to wage war, sacrifice everything they owned and loved, none of this would have been possible.

Freedom's a great concept.

It's blood that bought it.

Amy

Don

07-04-2008, 11:51 PM

The first part of the Declaration of Independence is over quoted.

This part made me misty-eyed:

To think these men had the courage to stand up and say this. They pledged their lives and livelihoods for a idea. They claimed in writing that they were now a government with rights to levy war. They claimed this to the entire world.

Amy

My favorite part of the Declaration is the beginning of the second paragraph. First, a statement of natural rights, a sentence that I wish had remained as clear in meaning as in some of the earlier drafts.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Then the second, which explains why governments exist, and where they derive their powers, which is too often given scant attention. I'll go so far as to state that all the problems we have with FedGov today could be resolved using these first two sentences as a litmus test for legislation.

That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Finally, the third sentence, intended as a bold warning to those who were to come after, and which has been largely ignored both by those it warns, and those whom the founders charged with the awful task.

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.