The Epic Problem

Nateskate · Jun 30, 2008

Who else feels bogged down in research? Let me explain. I'm writing an Epic Fantasy, and it's becoming clear I didn't pay enough attention in school. I have the story, very complex. Interesting characters.

Where it's starting to turn into a chore is that I simply don't know enough species of flowers, trees, word substitutions. "Didn't I use this phrase before?" How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

Obviously when the editor starts sending things back, I'm sure this will get pointed out. It's not that I'm passive about it. I keep little charts with bird species, and tree species.

How much is this a problem for the rest of you? What tricks do you use? Internet searches are a plus.

TrickyFiction · Jun 30, 2008

Nateskate said:
How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

It may help to consider other ways to describe characters besides hair and eyes. People have many different defining little things about them: like shape, costume, voice, behavior, movement, etc. Limiting yourself to hair and eye color is what's tying you down here. You know lots of people in your life, I'm sure. Try describing each of them without allowing yourself to use hair and eyes. I bet you'll be surprised at what you come up with.

Sunshine13 · Jun 30, 2008

Sometimes if it isn't the main ensemble of characters, I don't go into too much detail of eye color, etc. I want the reader to be able to use their imagination. But, if you don't feel comfortable doing that, you can always use the landscape/scenery to help. 'The sun caught in his green eyes, giving them an amber hue." Lame, but a quick example. Beak like nose is another example, instead of always focusing on the eyes. And if you have more than one species of characters, for instance elf, you don't have to mention the dead give away of the narrow ears. Give the reader some intelligent credit

And as for landscape itself, don't worry about getting so detailed that you leave nothing left for the reader to imagine. If you paint the picture too vivid, you take away their ability to use their imagination and what they might have seen in their head might conflict with what you beautifully described, and it doesn't jive and the book may not be as intriguing to the reader.

Also, not sure if you are even doing this, but environments don't always have to be spelled out in one paragraph, which doing that tends to fall into the repetitive trap you're talking about. So instead, wrap your environment around what's happening.

An arrow pierced the moonlit sky and zipped over the luscious canopy of trees. Leroy hobbled to the next knotted oak and wiped the sweat from his leathery face. One more ogre to go, he thought, gearing up his bow for the next shot. His cracked fingers curled over the atlatl, numb from the frigid breeze.

Totally pulled that out, so it may not be the best example, but in it the reader establishes it's night time, he's in a forest, and it's really cold.

Fenika · Jun 30, 2008

To answer your initial question, I try to do research as I go. Sometimes I'll just pull a random bird/mammal outta a hat as a placeholder and know I'll go back and take care of it later. Sometimes I go to the trouble of looking up different (bird) species and their basic habits (via pictures or youtube- nothing fancy, just to find one that hangs out on trees vs the ground or w/e)

Same applies to other aspects of my world. I have plans to do a lot of research (including better names for many of my characters- I want to avoid christian names) between my first and second drafts...

Does that help?

Gynn · Jun 30, 2008

Nateskate said:
Who else feels bogged down in research? Let me explain. I'm writing an Epic Fantasy, and it's becoming clear I didn't pay enough attention in school. I have the story, very complex. Interesting characters.

Where it's starting to turn into a chore is that I simply don't know enough species of flowers, trees, word substitutions. "Didn't I use this phrase before?" How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

Obviously when the editor starts sending things back, I'm sure this will get pointed out. It's not that I'm passive about it. I keep little charts with bird species, and tree species.

How much is this a problem for the rest of you? What tricks do you use? Internet searches are a plus.

Don't spend too much time worrying about tree species and flowers. You can describe a scene without being too specific. I know that I don't want to hear about every patch of flowers or copse of trees that the characters pass by, and I definitely don't want to know the species unless it's common enough that I can picture it myself or relative to the story. Give a nice, general description of the area, enough that I can see it and fill in the blanks.

For your characters, I don't want to hear about their eyes or their hair unless they're doing something with it. For example, don't make a paragraph that tells me that Lord Clee'shay had a dirty brown beard, green eyes, ruby lips, is fat, a peg leg, etc. Paragraphs that just tell me what someone looks like are a turn-off.

The elf was mysterious, with mysterious red eyes that lorded over the rest of his lithe face, which included: one slender nose; two lips (ruby); a handsome chin and three mysterious scars. His torso consisted of four athletic limbs...

Ugh.

Instead, work it somehow into the story so that we don't have to stop just to hear about his looks. Maybe something like this: Lord Clee'shay scratched his hoary beard, then clomped over to the table. "Nice leg," Ar'wy-nni'a said. "Carve it yourself?" Clee'shay brayed with laughter, his belly threatening to pop free from his sweat-stained shirt.

You get the idea. Spread it out so that we gradually pick up an image of the character as they interact with the world.

Mumut · Jun 30, 2008

I'd only research plants and animals if there is a reason for it. I wanted to know if a specific willow tree, only, produces Aspirin but I couldn't get anything that specific so I just said thaqt she ground the bark of a willow tree. With tansy, my daughter bought me a plant so I could taste it (use small small quantities - it is deadly in quantity) and grow it. So exact detail where it isn't needed will be boring.

Matera the Mad · Jun 30, 2008

I felt a terrible let-down when I had enough junk collected and stopped the research juggernaut for a while. I had become a Google addict. But immersing myself in it got some things worked out in the back of my head, and I know what my characters might know, and that's not bad. Very little of what I dug up has any apparent direct impact on what I write, but I need it to be there. It's like scenes that are written and then scrapped, that add a hidden depth to what is left. It's my novel, after all.

Shweta · Jun 30, 2008

Nateskate, I'm with you.
One of my MCs is... an herbalist.
Kill me now.

Aragon · Jun 30, 2008

Hey Nate, I can understand about research becoming overwhelming. I am researching about a county from its inception in 1754. This is not a dull county history wise, either. 2 of our country's founding fathers have ties there. a civil war general was born there and the county itself had an important significance to the Civil War. The county was home to 3 major Civil Rights figures, 2 colleges. A president was educated there and many other well known people. Ohh, a major historical research was done on the free black community their and W.E.B. Dubois wrote a major piece on the county.

I understand what you mean, lol. Keep your chin up. Research is both a love of writers and a bane.

greatfish · Jul 1, 2008

It sounds like you're trying to get too specific in your story. I wouldn't point out any details that weren't important or unique. It's hard for a lot of writers to leave the descriptions to the reader, but most people are very good at visualizing characters for themselves. If you bog a reader down with minor, insignificant details like eye and hair color it becomes limiting. I would stick to details that are either important to the story or details that are unique, like a giant scar across someone's face.

Willowmound · Jul 1, 2008

Shweta said:
One of my MCs is... an herbalist.

I used to be a herbalist. Smoked tons of the stuff!

zornhau · Jul 1, 2008

Even with specialist characters, it's usually best to evoke rather than go into detail. Technobabble is technobabble: "Hmmm. Lesser Grebewort.. that should do the trick."

Also, it's fantasy. You can just make up the plants, or their names, at least for the time being. Draft the novel, then read it over making a note of research questions.

Kalyke · Jul 1, 2008

I don't understand though, if your epic fantasy story is set on another planet or in a alternate world or something. Usually plants have folk names either related to the way it looks (shape of leaves) like Goosefoot, Bottle Brush Plant, or the known or percieved herbal (or magical) use of the plant, Wolvesbane (wolves dont like it) Henbane (hens don't like it). If you have animals named Neufs, why not have Neuf's Foot, or Neufsbane?

ToddWBush · Jul 1, 2008

For your research question, it helps to actually enjoy research. I was lucky enough to be born with that attribute. Then I got a degree in history where I was taught how to research efficiently.

As to your description of characters by hair and eye color... why do you need to do it? Several writers have done quite well for themselves by not giving characters any descriptions at all save for age, race, and gender. They leave the "mental image" of the character to the reader. Unless it's material to the story, why even bother?

Of course, I don't even take my own advice, so what do I know?

donroc · Jul 1, 2008

I always liked one of Steinbeck's descriptions for brevity: "Mama Torres, a lean, dry woman ....."

Tasmin21 · Jul 1, 2008

My current WIP draws heavily on Greek mythology. Which is great, because there's tons of info on it. But it's also bad, because nobody agrees on any of it.

"Yes, so-and-so fathered whatshername, but it could also have been whoziwhatzit down the road, and whatsername might also be the same as flibbetigibit, just evolved some as time went on..."

Phaeal · Jul 1, 2008

The great thing about fantasy is that you can make up your own flora and fauna.

Actually, I find research no problem in the age of Google. Lately I've used it to look up a lot of info on antiquarian bookselling and real-life arcane tomes, and I got more than I could use in under an hour.

Deep research, on the other hand, the kind you need to do to write historical fiction (including F and SF), still sends me to the library and the bookstore. I'm immersing myself now in colonial Massachusetts, 1680-1695, and gotta read, read, read seriously hefty books for that.

For the fantastic flora and fauna, you shouldn't need to go beyond the Internet, though some paper field guides could help you, say, one on Trees, one on Flowers (which will get you all the herbaceous plants most readily ID'd by flower), one on Birds, and one on Mammals. Throw in Reptiles and Amphibians, Insects, and Fish if those are important to you.

Danger Jane · Jul 1, 2008

Shweta said:
Nateskate, I'm with you.
One of my MCs is... an herbalist.
Kill me now.

Word.

Luckily, the other MC doesn't know what to call anything. It's pretty much all just generic "plant" or "animal", when she pays attention at all.. If I feel like getting exotic, I put an adjective in front of it.

mscelina · Jul 1, 2008

Herbalist? Guilty. Fortunately, someone gave me a cookbook a long time ago about growing and harvesting herbs, their traditional uses and recipes using them. That helped a lot.

As for using mythological bases for your work--guilty again. However, I usually pick one source material (Ovid's Metamorphoses, for example, or if (as in Asphodel) it's the Trojan war, then I restrict myself to the Iliad and the Odyssey or the Aenied and use an amalgamation of all three sources for my world-building. Greco-Roman mythology can be very confusing, particularly if you are not using original classical source material, so I found it better to stick to just one definitive source.

BlueLucario · Jul 1, 2008

Funny, I was just reading several posts about something like this.

If you want you can describe your main character and some other extremely important characters, but it's not mandatory in writing. If you're going to do it, do it on page one. The readers have an imagination, so let them visualize things on their own. They would really appreciate it.

But it's really creepy to have a reader visualize a character as something she doesn't even look like. My character isn't blonde! Ewww!

tehuti88 · Jul 1, 2008

Perhaps you should research the major things that you're CERTAIN you'll need to know to get the main plot and such right. Then, write the story. THEN, find out the smaller, not-as-important details (for example, the plant names) that you still need to fill in the tiny blanks, and do so. That way you can get both the story and the research done without getting bogged down in a bunch of facts that might not even be important to the plot itself.

I write fantasy too, but it's based on Ojibwa culture and mythology, and utilizes some real things and settings. Thus, some research is necessary to not sound like a total moron. I would have, say, a scene with a voyageur canoe, for example, and I wouldn't know things like how long is this thing?--how many people does it seat?--what song would the voyageurs be singing? These details were important enough that I wanted to include them--but NOT important enough that the plot itself hinged on them. So I wrote it either vague or just using what I thought I knew and continued with the story. When I went back to check over that chapter, THAT was when I looked into the details of how long and spacious the canoe is and what the voyageurs were singing. I. e., the story continued even in my ignorance, and I didn't get bogged down in the little details.

It would be a whole other story if I didn't know that voyageurs used canoes because this would severely hamper the plot and the story's authenticity--that's a bit of MAJOR research that should be covered before the story is written. Ditto with your own story. If there's a particular plant or whatever that you KNOW is going to be pivotal to the plot, research that now, but ignore the others that are just in there to give the story more detail. Write the story. Then, if you want more details, do the minor research.

That's how it works for me, at least. Then again, this is a subject I'm terribly interested in, so it doesn't feel like research.

I'm not sure why you're seeking lots of ways to describe hair/eye color, etc. If you get too creative with that, it will risk sounding silly. ("Her hair was the color of a phoenix's wing, of the fire of a sunset, of burning passion..." You see what I mean. Sometimes red is just red.)

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 1, 2008

Nateskate said:
Who else feels bogged down in research? Let me explain. I'm writing an Epic Fantasy, and it's becoming clear I didn't pay enough attention in school. I have the story, very complex. Interesting characters.

Where it's starting to turn into a chore is that I simply don't know enough species of flowers, trees, word substitutions. "Didn't I use this phrase before?" How many ways are there to describe hair and eye color, when you have a ton of characters.

Obviously when the editor starts sending things back, I'm sure this will get pointed out. It's not that I'm passive about it. I keep little charts with bird species, and tree species.

How much is this a problem for the rest of you? What tricks do you use? Internet searches are a plus.

I hate to drag POV/perspective into this, but... if the reader knows someone's name, and the narrator knows their name, what's all this hair and eye crap?

Do we have wind and rain or something? Some scalp wounds, maybe? Does the reader know or care about what flowers and trees they pass; do you know enough about ecosystems to keep out of trouble with all these species?

Nateskate · Jul 1, 2008

TrickyFiction said:
It may help to consider other ways to describe characters besides hair and eyes. People have many different defining little things about them: like shape, costume, voice, behavior, movement, etc. Limiting yourself to hair and eye color is what's tying you down here. You know lots of people in your life, I'm sure. Try describing each of them without allowing yourself to use hair and eyes. I bet you'll be surprised at what you come up with.

Thanks for the tip.

Nateskate · Jul 1, 2008

ChristaCarol13 said:
Sometimes if it isn't the main ensemble of characters, I don't go into too much detail of eye color, etc. I want the reader to be able to use their imagination. But, if you don't feel comfortable doing that, you can always use the landscape/scenery to help. 'The sun caught in his green eyes, giving them an amber hue." Lame, but a quick example. Beak like nose is another example, instead of always focusing on the eyes. And if you have more than one species of characters, for instance elf, you don't have to mention the dead give away of the narrow ears. Give the reader some intelligent credit

And as for landscape itself, don't worry about getting so detailed that you leave nothing left for the reader to imagine. If you paint the picture too vivid, you take away their ability to use their imagination and what they might have seen in their head might conflict with what you beautifully described, and it doesn't jive and the book may not be as intriguing to the reader.

Also, not sure if you are even doing this, but environments don't always have to be spelled out in one paragraph, which doing that tends to fall into the repetitive trap you're talking about. So instead, wrap your environment around what's happening.

An arrow pierced the moonlit sky and zipped over the luscious canopy of trees. Leroy hobbled to the next knotted oak and wiped the sweat from his leathery face. One more ogre to go, he thought, gearing up his bow for the next shot. His cracked fingers curled over the atlatl, numb from the frigid breeze.

Totally pulled that out, so it may not be the best example, but in it the reader establishes it's night time, he's in a forest, and it's really cold.

For what it's worth I like your writing and don't think your example is lame at all.

Nateskate · Jul 1, 2008

donroc said:
I always liked one of Steinbeck's descriptions for brevity: "Mama Torres, a lean, dry woman ....."

Love this description. If only thoughts like this rolled off my pen.

The Epic Problem

Nateskate

TrickyFiction

Who?

Sunshine13

Mom by day, writer by night!

Fenika

Gynn

Wandering worlds

Mumut

Well begun is half done...

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Shweta

gone

Aragon

greatfish

Willowmound

Lightly salted

zornhau

Swordsman

Kalyke

ToddWBush

donroc

Historicals and Horror rule

Tasmin21

They will come from below...

Phaeal

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Danger Jane

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

BlueLucario

Blood Elves FTW

tehuti88

Mackinac Island Fanatic

Liosse de Velishaf

Nateskate

Nateskate

Nateskate