Age group distinction in fantasy

Exir · Jun 27, 2008

In mainstream fiction the dividing line between age groups (MG, YA and adult), because people of different ages clearly enjoy different things. MG might be about coming of age, YA might be about violence and drugs, and adult fiction might be about the relationship between one's career and family.

However, one thing I noticed in fantasy that is different from mainstream fiction is that a lot of things interest both children and adults alike. There is, somehow, far more common interests between young and old when it comes to the speculative, when compared to the realistic. While a story about a dad trying to juggle his work and family life might be of little interest to a 12 year old, unicorns, dragons, mages and wars seem to interest everyone from 8 year olds to 40 year olds. In fact, I can't really find what distinguishes the many genres. Take His Dark Materials -- they could've been kid's books minus a few borderline bloody scenes, or an adult's book. In fact, I'm pretty sure the anti-religious background of the book will only be picked up by an adult. Or take the Magic Kingdom series by Terry Brooks. Minus the lawyer protagonist and the romance, and make the protagonist a 12-year-old trying to become a young king instead, and most of the novel could've remained unchanged, and fashioned into a MG novel instead.

So my question here is: what exactly does the different age groups demand in terms of subject matter? Or is it mostly stuff like age of protagonist, vocabulary, length, etc.?

MattW · Jun 27, 2008

Exir said:
So my question here is: what exactly does the different age groups demand in terms of subject matter?

COming of age, realizing your destiny, and fantastic creatures may be common, but the subject matter differs wildly.

"Adult" fantasy can have much more to do with the grayness of the world, hard decisions, evil within everyone, reluctant or failed heroes, interpersonal conflict, graphic scenes (with a purpose), and overall "grittyness."

Younger fantasy has more of the optimism, wonder and mystery of places far away, heroic destiny, scrappy sidekicks, and whimsy.

Or is it mostly stuff like age of protagonist, vocabulary, length, etc.?

Age of protagonist I think is a result of the above. Vocab and length can vary, but very few books that an adult reads will be unapproachable from a youth who voluntarily reads full length novels.

Esopha · Jun 27, 2008

Exir said:
So my question here is: what exactly does the different age groups demand in terms of subject matter? Or is it mostly stuff like age of protagonist, vocabulary, length, etc.?

Mainstream YA deals with coming-of-age and a teenaged protagonist, and while "violence and drugs" are sometimes present, they're hardly a necessity.

MG fiction also handles coming-of-age, but the way it's handled is different than that of YA.

Both can have just as much "grit" as an adult novel (admittedly, MG less than YA) but the coming-of-age bit is really key.

It's hard to explain. If you read the genres enough you'll know it when you see it.

Since a lot of adult novels have younger protagonists, what really separates YA/MG from adult fiction is the voice. Does your protagonist, at age 17, have the voice of a 17 year old, or is the story told by your protagonist as an adult looking back on his childhood? That sort of thing.

YA/MG features everything adult fiction does, but it's filtered through the worldview of younger protagonists.

I would stop by a library and pick up a few YA/MG fantasy novels and look for how they're written.

tehuti88 · Jun 27, 2008

MattW said:
"Adult" fantasy can have much more to do with the grayness of the world, hard decisions, evil within everyone, reluctant or failed heroes, interpersonal conflict, graphic scenes (with a purpose), and overall "grittyness."

Younger fantasy has more of the optimism, wonder and mystery of places far away, heroic destiny, scrappy sidekicks, and whimsy.

Hm. My fantasy story with a 14/15-year-old protagonist, which I recently figured can probably fit pretty well in the YA category, regularly deals with the grayness of the world, hard decisions (including life or death), the evil within everyone (including the MC), reluctant or failed heroes, interpersonal conflict, and some graphic (violent, at least--no sex) scenes. No grittiness that I'm aware of, though. Oh. It also has optimism, wonder and mystery of places far away, heroic destiny, scrappy sidekicks, and whimsy.

I guess I've just gotten even more confused. :roll:

Straka · Jun 27, 2008

One problem I have reading young fantasy is no so much the themes but the logic. I remember reading Eragon and I was so annoyed by some of the moral dilemmas he was having. It felt forced to me but I tried to think if I was reading this when I was thirteen maybe I would be thinking the same thing.

TPCSWR · Jun 27, 2008

Straka said:
One problem I have reading young fantasy is no so much the themes but the logic. I remember reading Eragon and I was so annoyed by some of the moral dilemmas he was having. It felt forced to me but I tried to think if I was reading this when I was thirteen maybe I would be thinking the same thing.

Not a good example, as a lot of writers will tell you.

I also think that the difference in sci-fi and fantasy between YA and adult is less than most other genres. The whole coming-of-age story is the main thing but I'd say most teens wouldn't mind the good adult books and most adults wouldn't mind the good YA books.

Bagoth · Jun 27, 2008

Here are some examples of each rating and the types of fiction that goes along with it, in my humble opinion.

MG: Harry Potter, Eragon, Animorphs, etc.

YA: Most contemporary fantasy settings like Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Magic the Gathering, Lord of the Rings, The Bartimaeous Trilogy, etc.

Adult: Dune saga, Dresden Files, Conan, Warhammer, anything by Lovecraft, Wheel of Time,

Shweta · Jun 27, 2008

Actually Wheel of Time is being repackaged as YA.

A lot of "standard" fantasy is.

Wander over into stranger lands and you'll find Very Clearly Not YA stuff.

Like... oh... Ellen Kushner's Swordspoint, (though a sequel, Privilege of the Sword, is). Or Ian MacDonald's King of Morning, Queen of Day, though it starts with a child/ya protagonist; Jaqueline Carey's Kushiel books, ditto; Robin McKinley's Deerskin, which is a fairy tale retelling, and one of the most harrowing things I've ever read and emphatically not YA.

And so forth.

Paichka · Jun 28, 2008

Shweta said:
Robin McKinley's Deerskin, which is a fairy tale retelling, and one of the most harrowing things I've ever read and emphatically not YA.

*shudder*

A retelling of my favorite fairytale (All-Fur), but easily one of the most disturbing things I've ever read. Easily.

Great book, though. Beauty is still my favorite of hers. (RM is a her, yes?)

Shweta · Jun 28, 2008

Paichka said:
*shudder*

A retelling of my favorite fairytale (All-Fur), but easily one of the most disturbing things I've ever read. Easily.

As Mr. Shweta says, you can tell every time that book is mentioned who's read it. Just look around the room. Anyone who's cringing? Yep.

Great book, though. Beauty is still my favorite of hers. (RM is a her, yes?)

I'm torn between Beauty and Spindle's End.
Though I wonder if Deerskin is the strongest thing she's written. It gets a unanimous "Wow, wonderful book, but :scared:

" in my experience.
(and yes)

SnowtheWolf · Jun 28, 2008

"There's no such thing as fun for the WHOLE family."
— Jerry Seinfeld

dawinsor · Jun 28, 2008

I think there's a lot of slippage in categorizing SFF. A Tor editor told me sometimes it depends on which large bookstore buyer the marketing person gets along with. And at a recent con, another editor said she saw a book marketed as YA that really wasn't, but the author had made her reputation as a YA writer so that's how it was sold. Btw, she said the one thing she wouldn't publish in a YA novel was explicit sex. Someone else in the crowd made the same point made about about how greyness creeps in as the audience gets older, including into YA vs MG. Someone else said the circle of antagonists gets wider with an older audience. Younger readers focus on their peers (eg Malfoy), slightly older ones on adults in their lives such as parents and teachers (Snape), and YA on antagonists who affect society. Great discussion really.

Liosse de Velishaf · Jul 1, 2008

I'm sure this question ignores many shades of grey, but what proportion of comparative influence do plot, setting, and character have on target age groups.

I, personally, tend to have a profusion of younger characters, one memorable one was nine; yet there are also many adult veiwpoint characters ranging from minor to major importance. Is there a general scale to which these facts can be applied?

Even if many of the characters are younger, can the background counteract such an issue? For instance, alternative ages for "mature" responsibilities; or expectations; or, possibly, the specific setting of the story.

Plot being the third factor: even if, say, the character is physically incapable of dealing with a situation as an adult would, could a solution be different enough from the usual youngster method to raise it above YA?

Shades of grey: themes, of course can have a major effect on the target age group, though differnt treatments can lessen this effect. Also, perspective: looking back, as at past experince; in the moment, specifically present tense; outside perspective...

Do these things matter, or do publishers agents and readers generally take their cue from straight facts like age of MCs?

Age group distinction in fantasy

Exir

Out of the cradle endlessly rocking

MattW

Company Man

Esopha

bam pow zap.

tehuti88

Mackinac Island Fanatic

Straka

Bored Fanatic

TPCSWR

Unashamed Play School Fan

Bagoth

Shweta

Sick and absent

Paichka

The BIC-Believer

Shweta

Sick and absent

SnowtheWolf

dawinsor

Dorothy A. Winsor

Liosse de Velishaf